timschochet
Footballguy
Rommel is a great general. I don't know where he ranks among the greatest generals of all time. But his battles are certainly fascinating to read about.
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World's Greatest Draft (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
AcerFC
Footballguy
This guys work may not be as classical as others in his category, but he was arguably the best in his genre. For that reason I select
9.5 Andy Warhol- Painter
9.5 Andy Warhol- Painter
higgins
Footballguy
Orange Crush
Footballguy
You have a point, although I still see some big names in categories that have already been picked over. Categories like Leader and Military were very deep, but also had the "names" and so have had a lot of people taken. I think that was really a mistake. Then there are several categories that have hardly been touched (particularly athlete and musician). There could be great potential to rack up some points in the overall rankings there.
timschochet
Footballguy
I am happy to start a new controversy with Acer's selection.
Andy Warhol certainly was the best of his genre, as Acer claims. His genre was crap. Andy Warhol's paintings are a joke compared to the great artists taken in this draft. The fact that he is considered someone comparable to a Picasso or Monet or Rembrandt is an embarrassment to our times. Our current artists are not able to equal the talent of the great masters, so they spit on them instead. Warhol is part of a movement that mocks the great works of the last centuries. I don't blame Acer for drafting him; he's a big name, and that is the disgrace. Andy's 15 minutes should have been up long ago.
Bring it on, pretentious art snobs!
Andy Warhol certainly was the best of his genre, as Acer claims. His genre was crap. Andy Warhol's paintings are a joke compared to the great artists taken in this draft. The fact that he is considered someone comparable to a Picasso or Monet or Rembrandt is an embarrassment to our times. Our current artists are not able to equal the talent of the great masters, so they spit on them instead. Warhol is part of a movement that mocks the great works of the last centuries. I don't blame Acer for drafting him; he's a big name, and that is the disgrace. Andy's 15 minutes should have been up long ago.
Bring it on, pretentious art snobs!
AcerFC
Footballguy
No argument from me but it was take the 10-15th best guy or take the number 1 guy in his genre. It is what it is. I am not an artist and sometimes I dont get "it" but someone decided there was a place for pop art in art culture. I am not going to argue it
Abrantes
Footballguy
Given your feelings on xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, it comes as little surprise that you don't dig Warhol.
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timschochet
Footballguy
Please don't spotlight; some fool might actually decide to select that worthless no talent.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
On the other hand, those categories probably aren't going to make a difference in a head to head vote unless everything else is really close. The other thing about the categories you mentioned is that aside from a few very obvious top people, I think the judging could be a crapshoot. There are some people I have high on my lists there, but I don't want to roll the dice on a pick in the top 10 that could end up being placed anywhere from 5th-20th. That will probably change in a couple of rounds as there aren't many clearly established tiers left in my mind.
flysack
Footballguy
Yes, but if drafted, I'm confident his Master status at chess would give him extra ranking.Please don't spotlight; some fool might actually decide to select that worthless no talent.Given your feelings on xxxxxxx, it comes as little surprise that you don't dig Warhol.
I happen to LOVE the artist in question. But I'm too burnt out to go on a Flysack Rant. It think I still owe own of those for Freud too. Unfortunately, I got bogged down arguing criteria today instead. Whoever drafted Freud: I'm sorry. Blame Larry and FUBAR. They're evil. The evilness of Larry is so evil that evil itself packed its evil bags and moved out of hell so it could set up its evil abode in Larry's evil living room, so it could sit on his evil couch and watch evil TV while eating evil popcorn with that evil little smirk on its evil face.Added: I don't think you're evil, Larry. I think I tell long-winded bad jokes.
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Ozymandias
Footballguy
Warhol is way overrated. There are a significant number of artists left, one in particular that I am surprised has lasted this long. But he will arise.
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dparker713
Footballguy
So, I'd take Chopin over everyone else in his category. Great pick.
krista4
Footballguy
Ah, I see what you did there. Couldn't figure out how it got through the filter.
timschochet
Footballguy
Even over Beethoven?
Mjolnirs
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
Im not exactly a music historian, so who's more influential or important doesnt really matter to me. I just know who I prefer, and thats Chopin.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
And I will have the generals align themselves alphabetically according to height.
timschochet
Footballguy
Uh oh, I think Napoleon is in trouble...
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Billy Clanton: Stephen Foster. "Oh, Susannah", "Camptown Races". Stephen stinking Foster.Doc Holliday: Ah, yes. Well, this happens to be a nocturne.Arsenal of Doom said:
Billy Clanton: A which?
Doc Holliday: You know, Frederic ####### Chopin.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
A tall man a thousand years ago would need a step ladder in the grocery market today.
Big Rocks
Footballguy
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
True, but it's not like many recent generals have been drafted either.A tall man a thousand years ago would need a step ladder in the grocery market today.
krista4
Footballguy
He didn't specify ascending or descending (nor did I).
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
dparker713
Footballguy
He didn't specify ascending or descending (nor did I).
He wasnt short anyway.
larry_boy_44
Footballguy
I laughed... lolYes, but if drafted, I'm confident his Master status at chess would give him extra ranking.Please don't spotlight; some fool might actually decide to select that worthless no talent.I happen to LOVE the artist in question. But I'm too burnt out to go on a Flysack Rant. It think I still owe own of those for Freud too. Unfortunately, I got bogged down arguing criteria today instead. Whoever drafted Freud: I'm sorry. Blame Larry and FUBAR. They're evil. The evilness of Larry is so evil that evil itself packed its evil bags and moved out of hell so it could set up its evil abode in Larry's evil living room, so it could sit on his evil couch and watch evil TV while eating evil popcorn with that evil little smirk on its evil face.Added: I don't think you're evil, Larry. I think I tell long-winded bad jokes.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Just got home from work, dunno if it'll get to my turn before I wake up around 10EST. Arsenal, can you do me a favor and take a PM in case I don't make it in time?
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Or abrantes maybe if either of you are on, por favor?
krista4
Footballguy
I have completed my initial rankings in both my categories and can make the following statement: No one is going to like them. 
Well, OK, the people at the top will. They are definitely lower on the literary snob scale than Professor Z's ratings, so I'll incur his wrath (again), but they will also be too snobbish for the likes of Tim and others. When you can't please everyone, just please no one! 
Well, OK, the people at the top will. They are definitely lower on the literary snob scale than Professor Z's ratings, so I'll incur his wrath (again), but they will also be too snobbish for the likes of Tim and others. When you can't please everyone, just please no one!
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
My pick coming in a few
Thorn
Footballguy
I'm ready to go right behind you.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I'm going military here. Frankly, this guy should have been drafted long ago so I'm glad he fell to me.
His name was Salah al-Din ibn Ayyub; the great Muslim general who confronted the Crusaders in the Near East. Born to a Kurdish family active in Syria, he reestablished a Sunni regime in Egypt in 1171 by putting an end to the last Shiite Fatimid caliph there.
As sultan of Egypt he captured Damascus, Aleppo, and Mosul from other Muslim princes. From this strong Syrian base, he then turned against the Crusaders, decisively defeating them at the battle of Hattin on July 4, 1187. The victory at Hattin was followed by the easy recon quest of various Crusader lands and towns, above all the holy city of Jerusalem, which had been in Christian hands for 88 years. He acted with great magnanimity to the Christian and Jewish residents. He forced the Franks to retreat to the coast of Syria and Palestine. In 1192 he signed a truce with the great crusader King. He died in the following year, but his descendants in the Ayyubid dynasty continued to rule in Egypt and Syria for several generations. Considered the model prince by Muslim admirers and Christian foes alike, he has been memorialized in history and legend to the present day.
He is universally considered the greatest Muslim military hero in history. He was the victor of the Second and Third Crusade who saw the retreat of the European Christians back from the Holy Land. His ability to use the various unruly people of his lands to forge an army that could stand up to the military might and genius of his primary foe in the Third Crusade is still a legend of its own. He was respected so much by the crusading king that the two exchaged countless gifts during their battles as a sign of the mutual respect they shared.
Upon his death the pope of the time decided the lands were ripe for a Fourth Crusade. But the empire he established could not be defeated and his line ruled until late in the 15th century. Despite his fierce opposition to the Christian powers, he has achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight, so much so that there existed by the 14th century an epic poem about his exploits, and Dante included him among the virtuous pagan souls in Limbo.
I select, Saladin , a great military mind that unified the Muslim world against four crusades, recaptured the holy land, created an empire that lasted centuries, and was - by all accounts of his enemies - a truly noble man whose actions in conquest did not stop his enemies from respecting and, in the end, honoring him.
His name was Salah al-Din ibn Ayyub; the great Muslim general who confronted the Crusaders in the Near East. Born to a Kurdish family active in Syria, he reestablished a Sunni regime in Egypt in 1171 by putting an end to the last Shiite Fatimid caliph there.
As sultan of Egypt he captured Damascus, Aleppo, and Mosul from other Muslim princes. From this strong Syrian base, he then turned against the Crusaders, decisively defeating them at the battle of Hattin on July 4, 1187. The victory at Hattin was followed by the easy recon quest of various Crusader lands and towns, above all the holy city of Jerusalem, which had been in Christian hands for 88 years. He acted with great magnanimity to the Christian and Jewish residents. He forced the Franks to retreat to the coast of Syria and Palestine. In 1192 he signed a truce with the great crusader King. He died in the following year, but his descendants in the Ayyubid dynasty continued to rule in Egypt and Syria for several generations. Considered the model prince by Muslim admirers and Christian foes alike, he has been memorialized in history and legend to the present day.
He is universally considered the greatest Muslim military hero in history. He was the victor of the Second and Third Crusade who saw the retreat of the European Christians back from the Holy Land. His ability to use the various unruly people of his lands to forge an army that could stand up to the military might and genius of his primary foe in the Third Crusade is still a legend of its own. He was respected so much by the crusading king that the two exchaged countless gifts during their battles as a sign of the mutual respect they shared.
Upon his death the pope of the time decided the lands were ripe for a Fourth Crusade. But the empire he established could not be defeated and his line ruled until late in the 15th century. Despite his fierce opposition to the Christian powers, he has achieved a great reputation in Europe as a chivalrous knight, so much so that there existed by the 14th century an epic poem about his exploits, and Dante included him among the virtuous pagan souls in Limbo.
I select, Saladin , a great military mind that unified the Muslim world against four crusades, recaptured the holy land, created an empire that lasted centuries, and was - by all accounts of his enemies - a truly noble man whose actions in conquest did not stop his enemies from respecting and, in the end, honoring him.
Thorn
Footballguy
Though it pains me as an Irishman, there is just too much value here to let this leader continue to slide.
9.07 Oliver Cromwell, Leader
9.07 Oliver Cromwell, Leader
Political Leader
Cromwell's military standing gave him enhanced political power, just as his military victories gave him the confidence and motivation to intervene in and to shape political events. An obscure and inexperienced MP for Cambridge in 1640, by the late 1640s he was one of the power-brokers in parliament and he played a decisive role in the 'revolution' of winter 1648-9 which saw the trial and execution of the King and the abolition of monarchy and the House of Lords. As head of the army, he intervened several times to support or remove the republican regimes of the early 1650s.
Eventually, in December 1653, he became head of state as Lord Protector, though he held that office under a written constitution which ensured that he would share political power with parliaments and a council. As Lord Protector for almost five years, until his death on 3 September 1658, Cromwell was able to mould policies and to fulfill some of his goals. He headed a tolerant, inclusive and largely civilian regime, which sought to restore order and stability at home and thus to win over much of the traditional political and social elite. Abroad, the army and navy were employed to promote England's interests in an expansive and largely successful foreign policy.
Military Leader
From the outbreak of war in summer 1642, Cromwell was an active and committed officer in the parliamentary army. Initially a captain in charge of a small body of mounted troops, in 1643 he was promoted to colonel and given command of his own cavalry regiment.
He was successful in a series of sieges and small battles which helped to secure East Anglia and the East Midlands against the royalists. At the end of the year he was appointed second in command of the Eastern Association army, parliament's largest and most effective regional army, with the rank of lieutenant-general. During 1644 he contributed to the victory at Marston Moor, which helped secure the north for parliament, and also campaigned with mixed results in the south Midlands and Home Counties.
In 1645-6, as second in command of the newly formed main parliamentary army, the New Model Army, Cromwell played a major role in parliament's victory in the Midlands, sealed by the battle of Naseby in June 1645, and in the south and south-west. When civil war flared up again in 1648 he commanded a large part of the New Model Army which first crushed rebellion in South Wales and then at Preston defeated a Scottish-royalist army of invasion.
After the trial and execution of the King, Cromwell led major military campaigns to establish English control over Ireland (1649-50)and then Scotland (1650-51), culminating in the defeat of another Scottish-royalist army of invasion at Worcester in September 1651. In summer 1650, before embarking for Scotland, Cromwell had been appointed lord general - that is, commander in chief - of all the parliamentary forces.
It was a remarkable achievement for a man who probably had no military experience before 1642. Cromwell consistently attributed his military success to God's will. Historians point to his personal courage and skill, to his care in training and equipping his men and to the tight discipline he imposed both on and off the battlefield.
Religious Leader
Cromwell life and actions had a radical edge springing from his strong religious faith. A conversion experience some time before the civil war, strengthened by his belief that during the war he and his troops had been chosen by God to perform His will, gave a religious tinge to many of his political policies as Lord Protector in the 1650s. Cromwell sought 'Godly reformation', a broad programme involving reform of the most inhumane elements of the legal, judicial and social systems and clamped down on drunkenness, immorality and other sinful activities. He also believed passionately in what he called 'liberty of conscience', that is freedom for a range of Protestant groups and faiths to practise their beliefs undisturbed and without disturbing others. Several times he referred to this religious liberty as the principal achievement of the wars, to be strengthened and cherished now that peace had returned. Others, however, viewed these religious policies as futile, unnecessarily divisive or a breeding ground for heresy.
Nice pick. I don't think I'd slot him higher than many who have already been drafted in this category (maybe 1 or 2) if I were judging, but I think he's one of the best left available.
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9.08—Lavrentiy Pavlovich Beria-Villain
Since I haven’t added to Team Pinko for a few picks, it’s time to add one of the cruelest mofos of a pretty awful regime, that of Comrade Stalin. Uncle Joe really knew how to pick his assistants and Beria was a fellow Georgian and was chief of Soviet security and secret police during the Great Purge of the Party in the 1930s and then head of the NKVD during The Great Patriotic War. Beria was the official who oversaw the imprisonment transportation to the Gulag and execution of millions of ordinary Russians for crimes such as “criminal activity against the Party and the State”. Beria was also responsible for the external spying operations of the USSR and was instrumental in the Soviets efforts to steal American a-bomb secrets which were ultimately successful.
It is difficult to overstate just how bad this guy was. It was he who ordered the execution of over 22,000 Polish prisoners of war, most of them Polish officers or policemen captured when the Soviets invaded Poland as part of the pact with the Nazi regime. During the Great Purge, unknown numbers of Russians were accused of vague crimes and sentenced to life in the labor camps. Beria was involved in the famous Show Trials of leading Communists. While Comrade Stalin may have been the architect of the Great Terror, it was Beria who carried it out and implemented the system.
Following the Great Patriotic War, Beria moved to strengthen his power and on Stalin’s death in 1953 for a brief time Beria was head of the Party. He, in fact, boasted that it was he who had killed Stalin by poison. Shortly thereafter he himself was denounced in a meeting of the Central Committee and was ultimately tried, found guilty and executed in late December 1953.
Stories have circulated about Beria’s sexual sadism and that he had unprotected sex with women after contracting syphilis. He is suspected of numerous rapes of teenage and younger girls wno were often tortured and beaten after sex and before being killed.
Yes, this guy is one sick perverted weirdo, but he fits in perfectly as the Villain of Team Pinko.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria
Since I haven’t added to Team Pinko for a few picks, it’s time to add one of the cruelest mofos of a pretty awful regime, that of Comrade Stalin. Uncle Joe really knew how to pick his assistants and Beria was a fellow Georgian and was chief of Soviet security and secret police during the Great Purge of the Party in the 1930s and then head of the NKVD during The Great Patriotic War. Beria was the official who oversaw the imprisonment transportation to the Gulag and execution of millions of ordinary Russians for crimes such as “criminal activity against the Party and the State”. Beria was also responsible for the external spying operations of the USSR and was instrumental in the Soviets efforts to steal American a-bomb secrets which were ultimately successful.
It is difficult to overstate just how bad this guy was. It was he who ordered the execution of over 22,000 Polish prisoners of war, most of them Polish officers or policemen captured when the Soviets invaded Poland as part of the pact with the Nazi regime. During the Great Purge, unknown numbers of Russians were accused of vague crimes and sentenced to life in the labor camps. Beria was involved in the famous Show Trials of leading Communists. While Comrade Stalin may have been the architect of the Great Terror, it was Beria who carried it out and implemented the system.
Following the Great Patriotic War, Beria moved to strengthen his power and on Stalin’s death in 1953 for a brief time Beria was head of the Party. He, in fact, boasted that it was he who had killed Stalin by poison. Shortly thereafter he himself was denounced in a meeting of the Central Committee and was ultimately tried, found guilty and executed in late December 1953.
Stories have circulated about Beria’s sexual sadism and that he had unprotected sex with women after contracting syphilis. He is suspected of numerous rapes of teenage and younger girls wno were often tortured and beaten after sex and before being killed.
Yes, this guy is one sick perverted weirdo, but he fits in perfectly as the Villain of Team Pinko.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavrentiy_Beria
Ozymandias
Footballguy
In a very confused time, with alliances being made and broken, he showed great qualities of generalship and astute political skills. He is in my third tier.
Gigantomachia
Footballguy
I am going to try to squeeze some comments in while I am on the air. I might even mention them in my broadcast. So here goes.
King Solomon
Ummm. Let's see. Historically it is difficult to even know he actually existed, which is extremely problematic for me as a scholar. As a philosopher I have difficultly with any position that is argued from scripture irrespective of the religious tradition in which it originates. Clearly I have many reasons question this pick, however, having worked in Biblical studies I find the story of Solomon to be one of the best eva. So here we go.
The philosophy or wisdom driving the story of Solomon is interesting. It suggests a means of Utopian existence possible within a particular stance toward being. Granted it remains framed in a theological context, but as many ancient interpreters have pointed out, there is a philosophical stance toward being in the whole of Jewish wisdom literature, of which King Solomon is the embodiment. Nevertheless, it also points out the difficultly with such an approach, going so far as to point out the weakness in Solomon himself; the ideal itself cannot measure up to the vision. Making this some of the most interesting philosophy available. So I like the pick. I need to see what larry said about it. Larry link me to your post!!
Not sure where it will rank in the end, but higher than some of you might have thought.
King Solomon
Ummm. Let's see. Historically it is difficult to even know he actually existed, which is extremely problematic for me as a scholar. As a philosopher I have difficultly with any position that is argued from scripture irrespective of the religious tradition in which it originates. Clearly I have many reasons question this pick, however, having worked in Biblical studies I find the story of Solomon to be one of the best eva. So here we go.
The philosophy or wisdom driving the story of Solomon is interesting. It suggests a means of Utopian existence possible within a particular stance toward being. Granted it remains framed in a theological context, but as many ancient interpreters have pointed out, there is a philosophical stance toward being in the whole of Jewish wisdom literature, of which King Solomon is the embodiment. Nevertheless, it also points out the difficultly with such an approach, going so far as to point out the weakness in Solomon himself; the ideal itself cannot measure up to the vision. Making this some of the most interesting philosophy available. So I like the pick. I need to see what larry said about it. Larry link me to your post!!
Not sure where it will rank in the end, but higher than some of you might have thought.
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Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Excellent run of picks folks.
Doug B
Footballguy
I think I see an opportunity in this category, though it's been getting picked over.
"Nihil est in intellectu quod non fuerit prius in sensu"
(Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses)
9.9 - St. Thomas Aquinas, Philosopher
"Nihil est in intellectu quod non fuerit prius in sensu"
(Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses)
9.9 - St. Thomas Aquinas, Philosopher
By swinging the door wide open for reason to stand alongside faith as a theological tool, I further posit that Aquinas paved the way for philosophical skepticism as applied to questions on God and the mysteries of human existence. This despite being an apparently commited believer in Catholicism. A provoking question to me is this: what kind of thinker is Aquinas in a twentieth- or twentieth-century context, in which a far richer data set about the natural world exists?Saint Thomas Aquinas, O.P. (also Thomas of Aquin or Aquino; born ca. 1225; died 7 March 1274) was a priest of the Roman Catholic Church in the Dominican Order from Italy, and an immensely influential philosopher and theologian in the tradition of scholasticism ... He was the foremost classical proponent of natural theology, and the father of the Thomistic school of philosophy and theology. His influence on Western thought is considerable, and much of modern philosophy was conceived as a reaction against, or as an agreement with, his ideas, particularly in the areas of ethics, natural law and political theory.
Aquinas is held in the Catholic Church to be the model teacher for those studying for the priesthood. The works for which he is best-known are the Summa Theologica and the Summa Contra Gentiles.
The philosophy of Aquinas has exerted enormous influence on subsequent Christian theology, especially that of the Roman Catholic Church, extending to Western philosophy in general, where he stands as a vehicle and modifier of Aristotelianism, which he fused with the thought of Augustine. Philosophically, his most important and enduring work is the Summa Theologica, in which he expounds his systematic theology of the quinquae viae (The Five Ways, see link above).
Epistemology
Aquinas believed "that for the knowledge of any truth whatsoever man needs divine help, that the intellect may be moved by God to its act." However, he believed that human beings have the natural capacity to know many things without special divine revelation, even though such revelation occurs from time to time, "especially in regard to [topics of] faith." Aquinas was also an Aristotelian and an empiricist. He substantially influenced these two streams of Western thought.
Theology
Aquinas viewed theology, or the sacred doctrine, as a science, the raw material data of which consists of written scripture and the tradition of the Catholic Church. These sources of data were produced by the self-revelation of God to individuals and groups of people throughout history. Faith and reason, while distinct but related, are the two primary tools for processing the data of theology. Aquinas believed both were necessary - or, rather, that the confluence of both was necessary - for one to obtain true knowledge of God. Aquinas blended Greek philosophy and Christian doctrine by suggesting that rational thinking and the study of nature, like revelation, were valid ways to understand God. According to Aquinas, God reveals himself through nature, so to study nature is to study God. The ultimate goals of theology, in Aquinas’ mind, are to use reason to grasp the truth about God and to experience salvation through that truth.
Modern influence
Many modern ethicists both within and outside the Catholic Church have recently commented on the possible use of Aquinas's virtue ethics as a way of avoiding utilitarianism or Kantian "sense of duty". Through the work of twentieth century philosophers ... Aquinas's principle of double effect specifically and his theory of intentional activity generally have been influential.
It is remarkable that Aquinas's aesthetic theories, especially the concept of claritas, deeply influenced the literary practice of modernist writer James Joyce, who used to extol Aquinas as being second only to Aristotle among Western philosophers (
The pioneer of neurodynamics, cognitive neuroscientist Xxxx Xxxx, considers the work of Aquinas important in modeling intentionality, the directedness of the mind toward what it is aware of.
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Abrantes
Footballguy
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Gigantomachia
Footballguy
Excellent pick!!Arguably one of the most influential philosophers in the whole western tradition. In fact, the textbook I am coauthoring with two other philosophers all agreed that our top 10 had to include Aquinas. He made Aristotle, and in many ways philosophy itself, ok to practice as a person of faith. This really opened the door for later skeptics, and ultimately, Descartes as well. Nice!
Thorn
Footballguy
Crossing him off my short list. Well done.
Black Box
Footballguy
Please tell me you discussed this draft with your coauthors and you weren't just putting together a top 10 list for the book itself.
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