World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

[rodg12]

I don't agree with this at all. Name recognition should matter much more than visual recognition. I guarantee you that more people in this country know who King Tut is than know who Charlie Chaplin is.

Guarantee? At very best, it would be a wash IMHO. Chaplin is still iconic to this day.Tut's death mask is iconic as well. But consider that the death mask is an artifact, and not a person.

As for name recognition vs. visual recognition ... consider that if it were on name recognition, the best "Celebrities" are your religious icons. It's pretty clear to me that when you break out Celebrity as a stand-alone category, you are not meaning to poach picks away from categories such as Religious Figure, et al.

No way. Pretty much every student who goes through school in this day and age is taught about King Tut in World History. They don't teach kids about Charlie Chaplin. And, that's just in the US. No way they are teaching kids about Charlie Chaplin in other parts of the world. I bet a lot of them are learning about King Tut though. Celebrity, IMO, is a category for a person with outstanding name recognition whose actual accomplishments don't measure up to people in their categories. Barack Obama, JFK, King Tut, Madonna, Michael Jackson, Pope John Paul II, Elizabeth I are excellent examples of Celebrities. HUGE name recognition....actual accomplishments in another category, meh. If I was in this draft, I would have punted this category until my last pick. Pretty meaningless category with TONS of possible picks that measure up very well against each other. Kinda like Kickers in FF.

 

[Doug B]

No way. Pretty much every student who goes through school in this day and age is taught about King Tut in World History. They don't teach kids about Charlie Chaplin.

Schools don't have to teach about Charlie Chaplin -- his iconography is pervasive in media.Though who's being taught in history classes is a red herring ... that's not a factor I consider even a little bit important.EDIT: BTW, as far as world history goes, King Tutenkhamen was an extremely minor player in Egyptian history. He's not so much "taught about" as he is "shown" in textbooks, because his death mask is an arresting visual. Let's not pretend that history books have chapters devoted to the accomplishments of King Tut.

 

[AcerFC]

If it gets to me, skip me. I have practice.

I was going to pick Torquemada for my villain but I liked the name Papa Doc better. That was really the tie breaker instead of a coin flip for this one

 

[Doug B]

Let's backtrack a bit and revisit how tim laid out the Celebrity category in post 3 of this thread:

Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.

Everywhere they go, they are recognized. Not "heard of" or "known" ... but "recognized".

 

[Orange Crush]

Agreed, but then we by definition exclude anyone in the last, what 50-100-150 years from being drafted in this thing. That isn't right.As for Broadway 50 years ago, I'm not sure I agree with you. The titans there are still the titans for the most part.

Well, do you know, offhand, who scored Gone with the Wind? Casablanca? King Kong? (1933)? The Treasure of Sierra Madre? The Jazz Singer? The Caine Mutiny? The Searchers?All famous movies, but we don't remember which composers scored them.

I know most of those were done by Max Steiner, though I know this primarily because I was considering both him and Alfred Newman in the G.A.D. But I'm weird like that. I like musicals, and also will occasionally break out John Williams' The Empire Strikes Back soundtrack.PS - Webber's a hack.

 

[Ozymandias]

Agreed, but then we by definition exclude anyone in the last, what 50-100-150 years from being drafted in this thing. That isn't right.As for Broadway 50 years ago, I'm not sure I agree with you. The titans there are still the titans for the most part.

Well, do you know, offhand, who scored Gone with the Wind? Casablanca? King Kong? (1933)? The Treasure of Sierra Madre? The Jazz Singer? The Caine Mutiny? The Searchers?All famous movies, but we don't remember which composers scored them.

I know most of those were done by Max Steiner, though I know this primarily because I was considering both him and Alfred Newman in the G.A.D. But I'm weird like that. I like musicals, and also will occasionally break out John Williams' The Empire Strikes Back soundtrack.PS - Webber's a hack.

Yes, they were all done by Steiner, but almost nobody knows that now. Which was the point I was making.

 

[rodg12]

No way. Pretty much every student who goes through school in this day and age is taught about King Tut in World History. They don't teach kids about Charlie Chaplin.

Schools don't have to teach about Charlie Chaplin -- his iconography is pervasive in media.

Though who's being taught in history classes is a red herring ... that's not a factor I consider even a little bit important.

EDIT: BTW, as far as world history goes, King Tutenkhamen was an extremely minor player in Egyptian history. He's not so much "taught about" as he is "shown" in textbooks, because his death mask is an arresting visual. Let's not pretend that history books have chapters devoted to the accomplishments of King Tut.

Pretty sure this is something that should have been laid out before the draft to the drafters then. Doesn't really matter though. It all gets voted on by the FFA at the end of the day and I just don't see any case where one celebrity over another is going to swing the vote to a team (except for the guy who took Anna Nicole Smith - easily the worst pick of the draft so far). Like I said, meaningless category with TONS of people on a level playing field. Much like a K in FF, shouldn't be taken until the last round.And you're still kidding yourself if you think Chaplin is more well known than King Tut. Maybe 50 years ago. Today? No chance.

 

[Funcooker]

Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

i didn't expect this....

 

[DCThunder]

Let's backtrack a bit and revisit how tim laid out the Celebrity category in post 3 of this thread:

Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.

Everywhere they go, they are recognized. Not "heard of" or "known" ... but "recognized".

The name and visual of the death mask of King Tut are very much recognized. Whether or not he was a minor king, and I'm not arguing that he wasn't, the whole "mummy's curse" and the romance of Egyptology, not to mention the beauty of the death mask make him recognized and known and a celebrity.

 

[rodg12]

Let's backtrack a bit and revisit how tim laid out the Celebrity category in post 3 of this thread:

Celebrities Could be movie stars, athletes, other famous people. These are the ones who everywhere they go, people recognize them.

Everywhere they go, they are recognized. Not "heard of" or "known" ... but "recognized".

Just makes the category even more FLAVVED, IMO. Several people already taken, even the ones none of us are debating as celebrities, aren't even close to be as 'recognizable' as sooooooooooooooooooo many people today. May as well just take a hot, big name movie star in the last round, or big name professional athlete and call it a day.ETA: Like take Jackie O for instance. I could rattle off 20 names easily more recognizable than her today without even trying. You telling me she's more recognizable among people 10-40 than any big name movie star? Not a chance.

 

[Abrantes]

Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

i didn't expect this....

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!*diabolical laghter*

(C'mon, someone had to say it!)

 

[Thorn]

Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

i didn't expect this....

No one expects it! Among our weapons are FEAR, SUPRISE, and...

 

[Funcooker]

Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

i didn't expect this....

NO ONE expects the Spanish Inquisition!*diabolical laghter*

(C'mon, someone had to say it!)

responded to with RUTHLESS efficiency. imagine my surprise & fear.....great pick, btw - he was the backup for the villain category in my mockalong (Bin Laden lasted til my spot for him). it's a shame for these purposes that the Vatican doesnt have someone who represents their Inquisition as clearly as Torquemada does Spain's.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

i didn't expect this....

No one expects it! Among our weapons are FEAR, SUPRISE, and...

mostly though, it is the nice red uniforms.

 

[Doug B]

Several people already taken, even the ones none of us are debating as celebrities, aren't even close to be as 'recognizable' as sooooooooooooooooooo many people today.

That's true. Why is that a problem?

May as well just take a hot, big name movie star in the last round, or big name professional athlete and call it a day.

Try that at your peril -- not all in the category of Celebrity are created equal. There is a top tier.

ETA: Like take Jackie O for instance. I could rattle off 20 names easily more recognizable than her today without even trying. You telling me she's more recognizable among people 10-40 than any big name movie star? Not a chance.

I see what's going on -- you hung up on recognizability today ... right this minute. I am thinking more of while they were alive, how high did their international profile get during their lives. But make no mistake -- Jackie O, JFK, Pope JPII, Chaplin, etc. are still relevant cultural icons today.Lumping people aged 10-40 as a group is a little broad. I can see middle-schoolers and younger perhaps not having clear visual impressions of Jackie O, Chaplin, JFK, or Pope JPII. But, honestly, if I met a 33-year-old, say, who didn't know what Jackie O, Chaplin, or Pope JPII looked like ... I'd consider their cultural literacy sorely lacking.

 

[rodg12]

Try that at your peril -- not all in the category of Celebrity are created equal. There is a top tier.

BS. Easily the deepest category in the draft and wasting an early pick on a Celebrity is every bit as stupid as wasting an early pick on a Kicker in Fantasy Football.

I see what's going on -- you hung up on recognizability today ... right this minute. I am thinking more of while they were alive, how high did their international profile get during their lives. But make no mistake -- Jackie O, JFK, Pope JPII, Chaplin, etc. are still relevant cultural icons today.

Once again, totally flawed. How the heck are you going to measure that?

Lumping people aged 10-40 as a group is a little broad. I can see middle-schoolers and younger perhaps not having clear visual impressions of Jackie O, Chaplin, JFK, or Pope JPII. But, honestly, if I met a 33-year-old, say, who didn't know what Jackie O, Chaplin, or Pope JPII looked like ... I'd consider their cultural literacy sorely lacking.

Seriously? Most people I know my age (I'm 25) could walk by Jackie O on the street and not have any clue who she was. I know who she was, I'm very well educated. Not sure I could pick her out of a line-up though.

 

[Doug B]

Once again, totally flawed. How the heck are you going to measure that?

Measure it? It's all subjective ... there are no stats.Measure it? What?

 

[larry_boy_44]

14.19 Queen, Musical Performer

Queen were an English rock band formed in 1970 in London by guitarist Brian May, lead vocalist Freddie Mercury and drummer Roger Taylor, with bassist John Deacon completing the lineup the following year.

The band is noted for their musical diversity, multi-layered arrangements, vocal harmonies, and incorporation of audience participation into their live performances. Their 1985 Live Aid performance was voted the best live rock performance of all time in an industry poll.

Queen enjoyed success in the UK in the early 1970s with the albums Queen and Queen II, but it was with the release of Sheer Heart Attack in 1974 and A Night at the Opera the following year that the band gained international success. They have released fifteen studio albums, five live albums, and numerous compilation albums. Eighteen of these have reached number one on charts around the world.

Following Mercury's death in 1991 and Deacon's retirement in 1997, May and Taylor have performed infrequently under the Queen name. Since 2004 they have been collaborating with Paul Rodgers, under the moniker Queen + Paul Rodgers.

Hit songs:

Over the course of their career, Queen have been regarded as a consistent hit maker. Many of their songs reached either #1, or top 10#, 20#, 30# or 40# in Charts around the world. Queen have released Three Greatest Hits Compilations though due to the definition of a hit, there should have been more singles in their Greatest Hits catalogs as some songs reached the top 40# or 30# in countries and have made the UK Top 75 or US Top 100. Here are their hits in chronological order in the two major charts.

* Seven Seas of Rhye, Queen II, 1974, #10 UK

* Killer Queen, Sheer Heart Attack, 1974, #2 UK, #12 US

* Now I'm Here, Sheer Heart Attack, 1975, #11 UK

* Bohemian Rhapsody, A Night at the Opera, 1975, #1 UK, #9 in US

* You're My Best Friend, A Night at the Opera, 1976, #7 UK, #16 US

* Somebody to Love, A Day at the Races, 1976, #2 UK, #13 US

* Tie Your Mother Down, A Day at the Races, 1977, #31 UK, #49 US

* Good Old-Fashioned Lover Boy (Queen's First E.P), [[A Day at the Races, 1977, #17 UK

* We are the Champions and We Will Rock You, News of the World, 1977, #2 UK, #4 US

* Spread Your Wings, News of the World, 1978, #34 UK

* Fat Bottomed Girls and Bicycle Race, Jazz, 1978, #11 UK, #24 US

* Don't Stop Me Now, Jazz, 1978, #9 UK, #86 US

* Love of My Life (Live), A Night at the Opera (1975) released 1979, #63 UK

* Crazy Little Thing Called Love, The Game, 1979, #2 UK, #1 US

* Save Me, The Game, 1980, #11 UK

* Play the Game, The Game, 1980, #14 UK, #42 US

* Another One Bites the Dust, The Game, 1980, #7 UK, #1 US

* Flash, Flash Gordon, 1980, #10 UK, #42 US

* Under Pressure, Hot Space, 1981, #1 UK, #29 US

* Body Language, Hot Space, 1982, #25 UK, #11 US

* Las Palabras De Amor, Hot Space, 1982 #17 UK

* Back Chat, Hot Space, 1982, #40 UK

* Radio Ga Ga, The Works, 1984, #2 UK, #16 US

* I Want to Break Free, The Works, 1984, #3 UK, #35 US

* It's a Hard Life, The Works, 1984, #6 UK, #72 US

* Hammer to Fall, The Works, 1984, #13 UK

* Thank God It's Christmas, from no album, 1984, #21 UK

* One Vision, A Kind of Magic, 1985, #7 UK

* A Kind of Magic, A Kind of Magic, 1986, #3 UK, #42 US

* Friends Will Be Friends, A Kind of Magic, 1986, #14 UK

* Who Wants to Live Forever, A Kind of Magic, 1986, #24 UK

* I Want It All, The Miracle, 1989, #3 UK, #50 US

* Breakthru, The Miracle, 1989, #7 UK

* The Invisible Man, The Miracle, 1989, #12 UK

* Scandal, The Miracle, 1989, #25 UK

* The Miracle, The Miracle, #21 UK

* Innuendo, Innuendo, 1991, #1 UK

* I'm Going Slightly Mad, Innuendo, 1991, #22 UK

* Headlong, Innuendo, 1991, #14 UK

* The Show Must Go On, Innuendo, 1991, #16 UK

* Bohemian Rhapsody with These are the Days of Our Lives , A Night at the Opera, 1991, #1 UK, #2 US

* These Are the Days of Our Lives, with Bohemian Rhapsody, Innuendo, 1991, #1 UK, #2 US

* Heaven for Everyone, Made in Heaven, 1995, #2 UK

* A Winter's Tale, Made in Heaven, 1995]] #6 UK

* Too Much Love Will Kill You, Made in Heaven, 1996, #15 UK

* Let Me Live, Made in Heaven, 1996, #9 UK

* You Don't Fool Me, Made in Heaven, 1996, #17 UK

* No One But You, from no Album, 1998, #13 UK

* C-lebrity with Paul Rodgers, The Cosmos Rocks, 2008, #33

As of 2005, according to The Guinness Book of World Records, Queen albums have spent a total of 1,322 weeks or twenty-seven years on the United Kingdom album charts; more time than any other musical act including The Beatles and Elvis Presley.[76] Also in 2005, with the release of their live album with Paul Rodgers, Queen moved into third place on the list of acts with the most aggregate time spent on the British record charts.[77]

In 2006, the Greatest Hits album was found to be the United Kingdom's all-time best selling album, with sales upwards of 5,407,587 copies, over 604,295 more copies than its nearest competitor, The Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Their Greatest Hits II album came in seventh with sales upwards of 3,631,321 copies.[78]

One of rock's most successful, influential and popular acts, the band has released a total of eighteen number one albums, eighteen number one singles, and ten number one DVDs worldwide making them one of the world's best-selling music artists. Their total record sales have been estimated at over 300 million worldwide[79] including 32.5 million in the United States[80] alone as of 2004. The band is also the only group in which every member has composed more than one chart-topping single.[81] Also, on January 2007, it was announced that Queen's Greatest Hits I & II was the most downloaded album on iTunes in the US.

Awards:mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("

Accolades

[edit] Inductions

* 2001 - The band was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio.[82]

* 2002 - The band was given a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.[83]

* 2003 - The band became the first and remain the only band, rather than individual, to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame.[81]

* 2004 - The band was inducted into the UK Music Hall of Fame.[84]

* 2004 - "Bohemian Rhapsody" is inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.[85]

* 2004 - The band was inducted into the RockWalk of Fame (at Guitar Center on Hollywood's Sunset Boulevard)[86]

* 2006 - The band was the first inducted into the VH1 Rock Honors.[87]

* 2009 - "We Will Rock You" and "We Are The Champions" are inducted into the Grammy Hall of Fame.[85]

[edit] Awards

* 1974

o Sounds: 3rd Best New British Band, 9th Best International Band

o Disc: 10th Brightest Hope

o NME: 2nd Most Promising New Name

* 1975

o Melody Maker: 'Band of the Year'[88]

o Record Mirror: 2nd Best British Newcomer, 2nd Best Single ("Killer Queen"), 9th International Group

o NME: 8th Best British Group, 7th Best Stage Band, 4th Most Promising Group In The World, 3rd Most Promising New Name, 17th Best World Group

o Disc: Top Live Band, Top International Group, Top British Group, Top Single ("Killer Queen"), 3rd Best Album (Sheer Heart Attack), 5th Best Album (Queen II)

o Ivor Novello Award to Mercury for "Killer Queen"[89]

o Golden Lion Award (Belgium) to Mercury for "Killer Queen"

o Carl Allen Award for contribution to the Ballroom Dancing Industry

* 1976

o NME: 1st British Stage Band, 2nd Group, 5th World Group, 3rd World Stage Band, Mercury: 7th World Singer, May: 3rd Top Guitarist, 1st British Single ("Bohemian Rhapsody"), 2nd Album ("A Night at the Opera")

o Record Mirror / Disc: 1st Best British Group, 1st World Group, No. 1 Single ("Bohemian Rhapsody"), No. 6 Album ("A Night at the Opera"), Mercury: 5th British Singer, 6th World Singer, 4th British Songwriter, 5th World Songwriter, May: 4th British Musician, 4th World Musician

o Sound: Best Band, Best Album (A Night at the Opera), Best Single ("Bohemian Rhapsody")[90]

o Ivor Novello Award to Mercury for "Bohemian Rhapsody"[89]

* 1977

o The BRIT Awards: Best British Single of the Last 25 Years ("Bohemian Rhapsody")[91]

o Europe One Radio: Most Potential Rock Band

o Daily Mail: Best Group

* 1979

o Music Life, Japan: Top Group, Top Album (Jazz), Top Single, Top Singer, Top Guitarist, Top Drummer, Top Bass Player

* 1980

o Juno Awards, Canada: Best Group, Best International Single ("Another One Bites the Dust"), Best International Album (The Game)

o Record World USA: Top Male Group, Top Producer, Top Disco Crossover (All awarded for "Another One Bites the Dust")

o **** Clark Awards USA: Best Band

o Circus Magazine USA: 2nd Best Group, 1st Live Show, No. 1 Album (The Game), No. 1 Single ("Another One Bites the Dust"), No.3 Single ("Crazy Little Thing Called Love"), Mercury: 2nd Male Vocalist, 3rd Best Songwriter, 3rd Best Keyboard Player; 3rd Best Guitarist, 3rd Best Bassist, 3rd Best Drummer

* 1981

o American Music Awards: 'Favorite Pop/Rock Single' ("Another One Bites the Dust")[88]

o Music Life, Japan: Best Group, Best Vocalist, Best Bass Player, 2nd Best Guitarist, 2nd Drummer

o NARM Award USA: Biggest Selling Single of 1980 ("Another One Bites the Dust")

* 1984

o Nordoff-Robbins Music Therapy Silver Clef Award: Outstanding Contribution to British Music

o UK Video Awards: Highly Commended in Best Compilation Category for The Works EP. Best Video award for "Radio Ga Ga"

* 1986

o Daily Mirror Reader's Poll: Top British Group, Top Male Vocalist, 5th Best Album (A Kind of Magic)

o Daily Express: Best Album Cover Award (A Kind of Magic)

o British Video Awards: Top Music Video Award (Live In Rio)

* 1987

o Sun: Best Male Vocalist for Mercury

o Capital Radio London: Best Group

o Ivor Novello Award: for Outstanding Contribution to British Music

o British Video Awards: Best Video, Music category for "Live In Budapest"

* 1988

o Golden Rose Festival, Montreux: International Music Media Conference: Best Long Form Video worldwide (The Magic Years)

o Festerio, Rio De Janiero: Best video documentary (The Magic Years)

* 1989

o Independent Television Awards: Best Band of the Eighties

o US Film & Video Festival: Silver Screen Award (The Magic Years)

o Diamond Awards, Antwerp: Best Special Effects Award ("The Invisible Man")

* 1990

o The BRIT Awards: Outstanding Contribution to Music[89]

* 1991

o American Film & Video Festival, Chicago: Innuendo won 1st Prize, I'm Going Slightly Mad won 3rd Prize for Creative Excellence in the Art Culture and Performing Arts category

o Monitor Awards (International Teleproduction Society), New York City: Best Achievement in Music Video ("Innuendo")

* 1992

o The BRIT Awards: Mercury received a posthumous Outstanding Contribution To Music Award, Best Single Award ("These Are the Days of Our Lives".[92]

o Ivor Novello Award: Best Single ("These Are the Days of Our Lives"), May received a Best TV Commercial Music Award ("Driven By You")

o Golden Giraffe Award: Greatest Hits II (Award given by the Association of Hungarian Record Producers)

o MTV Awards: Best Video From A Movie (Wayne's World)

o US Film & Video Festival, Chicago: Gold Camera Awards (The Freddie Mercury Tribute), (Greatest Flix II), ("The Show Must Go On") ("These Are the Days of Our Lives")

* 1993

o Ivor Novello Award: to Mercury ("Living on My Own") (posthumous)

o American Society Of Composers, Authors & Publishers: Mercury posthumously awarded for "Bohemian Rhapsody" as the Most Played Record in the U.S. of 1993

o Monitor Awards, Hollywood: "Red Couch" Awards (Greatest Flix II and "I'm Going Slightly Mad")

* 1997

o Ivor Novello Award: Best Song Lyrically & Musically ("Too Much Love Will Kill You")

* 2001

o Golden Rose Film Festival, Montreux: Prix de la Presse (The Freddie Mercury Untold Story)

* 2002

o New York Film Festival: Gold World Medal for the Best Television and Entertainment Program (Variety Special Section), Gold World Medal for the Best Home Video (Music Video Section) for The Freddie Mercury Untold Story

o Capital FM Awards: Outstanding Contribution to Music

o Guinness World Records: UK’s best single of the past 50 years ("Bohemian Rhapsody")

o Annual DVD Awards: Best DVD-Audio/Non Video (A Night at the Opera)

o Surround Music Awards: "Most Adventurous Mix" and "Listener's Choice" (A Night at the Opera)

* 2003

o Annual DVD Awards: Best DVD-Audio (The Game)

o DVD Awards At The Universal Sheraton: DVD-Audio Of The Year (The Game)

o Capital Legends Awards: Legendary Group

o European Music DVD-Award: Best Live DVD (Live At Wembley Stadium)

o Surround Music Award: "Best Mix: Non-Orchestral" (The Game)

* 2008

o New York City radio station Q104.3 FM WAXQ names Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" number 13 in their 2008 Top 1,043 Songs Of All Time listener-generated countdown.

[edit] Polls

Sister project Wikinews has related news: Queen voted Britain's greatest band

* 1999 - The band was voted the 2nd greatest band in music history.[93]

* 2005 - The band's performance at Live Aid is voted two times by a large selection of musicians and critics to be the greatest live show of all time.[32]

* 2007 - The band was voted the 'Best British Band Of All Time.'[94]

* 2008 - The band was voted the best rock band ever on the Internet site www.votenumber1.com. Millions of fans from over 40 countries voted.

* 2008 - The band enters the Grammy Hall of Fame.

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[flysack]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA –noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. a famous or well-known person. 2. fame; renown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity Synonyms:2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.Celebrities are images first, people second.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

 

[rodg12]

Once again, totally flawed. How the heck are you going to measure that?

Measure it? It's all subjective ... there are no stats.Measure it? What?

Determine it... Is that better? I know it's subjective but there has to be something you're looking at to determine how high their popularity got. IDK, I'm just disappointed with how this category was set up and the apparent lack of understanding about it going into and during the early stages of the draft. Not very fair to the drafters, IMO. I'm sure if the drafter was more aware of how the category is going to be judged, King Tut would not have been taken when he was. It's pretty obvious now that this category is very much geared toward people that lived in the 20th century and that it's the deepest category in the draft with the smallest difference among the draftees.

 

[Mister CIA]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA –noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. a famous or well-known person. 2. fame; renown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity Synonyms:2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.Celebrities are images first, people second.

You just triggered a synapse. I may have to shuffle Obama out of the celebrity category now.

 

[Uncle Humuna]

Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

Torquemada - do not beg him for mercy.

Torquemada - do not ask him for forgiveness.

 

[Thorn]

I will say I find the celebrity debate much more interesting than the religious ones.

 

[Abrantes]

Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

Torquemada - do not beg him for mercy.

Torquemada - do not ask him for forgiveness.

 

[flysack]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA –noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. a famous or well-known person. 2. fame; renown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity Synonyms:2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.Celebrities are images first, people second.

You just triggered a synapse. I may have to shuffle Obama out of the celebrity category now.

I think he makes a decent celebrity pick. However, the people trying to slot Cleopatra and her ilk as celebrities are just silly.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

Torquemada - do not beg him for mercy.

Torquemada - do not ask him for forgiveness.

Let's face it - you can't Torquemada anything!

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Larry and Mario have both timed out, so I will be making my next pick momentarily.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Larry and Mario have both timed out, so I will be making my next pick momentarily.

I PICKED!!how can I time out when I picked less than an hour ago?

 

[Mister CIA]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA –noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. a famous or well-known person. 2. fame; renown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity Synonyms:2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.Celebrities are images first, people second.

You just triggered a synapse. I may have to shuffle Obama out of the celebrity category now.

I think he makes a decent celebrity pick. However, the people trying to slot Cleopatra and her ilk as celebrities are just silly.

Yeah, I agree and have since moved her to wild card. I also agree that Obama is a good celeb pick, and I've kind of painted myself into a corner with him because I don't think he can pull many votes in any other category (including wild card), but dang, I think I have a celeb pick that compete for #1, one that everybody is overlooking; or perhaps I overestimate.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Larry and Mario have both timed out, so I will be making my next pick momentarily.

I PICKED!!how can I time out when I picked less than an hour ago?

Sorry, missed it. You actually had timed out already, however, so Mario's time also expired 2 minutes after you did pick. My pick is still forthcoming.

 

[rodg12]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA –noun, plural -ties for 1. 1. a famous or well-known person. 2. fame; renown. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Origin: 1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity Synonyms:2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.Celebrities are images first, people second.

My question to you then, is this......does this mean the woman in the Mona Lisa is the greatest celebrity of all time??? **And I don't think this is spotlighting, I hope, because I don't think it's ever been determined who that actually is. If it was actually anyone.

 

[Orange Crush]

I'm surprised at the posts saying "I considered X and Torquemada and took X." Are you kidding me with this? Every single one of those posts shows that they made the wrong choice. Torquemada's villainy is top tier.

 

[Thorn]

Sorry - I have Mario's picks via PM, I didn't realize he had come up:

I will do write ups later. But my next two people to pick are:

Guy Fawkes - Celebrity

- The guy has books, movies, television shows, music all written about him. Not to mention holidays in honor of him.

Henry Dunant - Humanitarian

- the originator of the Red Cross in 1862. The book he wrote became the basis for what we know the Red Cross to be today.

 

[Doug B]

Celebrities are images first, people second.

My question to you then, is this......does this mean the woman in the Mona Lisa is the greatest celebrity of all time???

Not to speak for flysack, but I'll weight in on that.The woman in the Mona Lisa is a reversal of what flysack wrote -- a case of the Image being the Celebrity.

The Celebrity being an Image means that someone's physical being is an Image. In and of itself.

 

[Doug B]

I'm surprised at the posts saying "I considered X and Torquemada and took X." Are you kidding me with this? Every single one of those posts shows that they made the wrong choice. Torquemada's villainy is top tier.

Torq's another guy who's got a bunch of online bios letting him off the hook. As I researched him, he looked somewhat less impressive than I was expecting. His rep is huge, though.

 

[Uncle Humuna]

Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

Torquemada - do not beg him for mercy.

Torquemada - do not ask him for forgiveness.

Let's face it - you can't Torquemada anything!

 

[timschochet]

Orange Crush gave me an idea on judging the wildcards- instead of doing it from 1-10, rank them from 1-20 where out of 60 wildcards I have to give 3 20s, three 19s, three 18s and so forth. This will make it equal to the other categories.

I think this is a better way to do it, (though more difficult for me, especially since wildcards are almost impossible to compare.) However, because I previously said I would rank them from 1-10, I won't change to this new system if even a single drafter objects. Let me know.

 

[mad sweeney]

Once again, totally flawed. How the heck are you going to measure that?

Measure it? It's all subjective ... there are no stats.Measure it? What?

Determine it... Is that better? I know it's subjective but there has to be something you're looking at to determine how high their popularity got. IDK, I'm just disappointed with how this category was set up and the apparent lack of understanding about it going into and during the early stages of the draft. Not very fair to the drafters, IMO. I'm sure if the drafter was more aware of how the category is going to be judged, King Tut would not have been taken when he was. It's pretty obvious now that this category is very much geared toward people that lived in the 20th century and that it's the deepest category in the draft with the smallest difference among the draftees.

I'm pretty sure that the concept of celebrity being a 20th century convention was discussed in the signip thread.

 

[Mister CIA]

ce⋅leb⋅ri⋅ty   /səˈlɛbrɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [suh-leb-ri-tee] Show IPA

–noun, plural -ties for 1.

1. a famous or well-known person.

2. fame; renown.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:

1350–1400; ME < L celebritās multitude, fame, festal celebration, equiv. to celebr- (s. of celeber) often repeated, famous + -itās -ity

Synonyms:

2. distinction, note, eminence, stardom.

Try scrolling back 30 pages to where I did this far more thoroughly.Not only did I provide the OED definition and etymology, I also gave a very thorough definition of celebrity based on some intense research I did on the subject a few years back.

Celebrity is a 20th century phenomenon linked to the proliferation of film. It's no coincidence that the first modern use of the word was by Emerson in the middle of the 19th century....right around the time photography took off.

Celebrities are images first, people second.

My question to you then, is this......does this mean the woman in the Mona Lisa is the greatest celebrity of all time??? **And I don't think this is spotlighting, I hope, because I don't think it's ever been determined who that actually is. If it was actually anyone.

Actually, she is the one I was just thinking about for celeb pick. Her name is Lisa del Gioncondo, according to wiki, but there is room for debate on this.,,, just read Doug's comments. Maybe I overestimated Mona Lisa's value.

Oh well, I have other roster needs to tend to.

 

[mad sweeney]

Oh good. Another non celebrity celebrity. 99.999% of Fawkes' alleged celebrity is posthumous fame. And I'm only giving him the .0001 because I don't know how long between the crime and execution and how much of his pic was distributed to the public. He certainly wasn't recognized where he went since he was in chains. Terrible celebrity choice. Notorious but not a celebrity.

 

[Doug B]

I'm pretty sure that the concept of celebrity being a 20th century convention was discussed in the signip thread.

No kidding. It's odd to me that drafters are getting blindsided by this.That said ... ISTM that almost every "bad" Celebrity pick is a very solid Wild Card for FFA voting. Name recognition does help in the voting.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

This is another pick I've been holding onto for a while. He obviously wouldn't score very well on my scale for worldwide recognition (at least not currently), but his standard of greatness as a sculptor is generally deemed to be unprecedented and his classical style effectively set the stage for all sculpture to follow (after about a 1000 year intermission).

Phidias - Artist/Non-Painter

Phidias's three major works, which for over 1,000 years were the dominant works of art in the world:

Athena Promachos

The Statue of Zeus - One of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World

Athena Parthenos

Phidias was also responsible for all of the Art at the Parthenon. He is generally credited with the design, though not the full execution of the Parthenon Frieze and the statuaries from the East and West pediments of the Elgin Marbles

The Phidian style is discussed at length in this interview with Rodin.

Rodin also offers his assessment of Phidias' placement in the Art world in this conversation:

" No; no artist will ever surpass Phidias - for progress exists in the world, but not in art. The greatest of sculptors who appeared at a time when the whole human dream could blossom in the pediment of a temple will remain for ever without an equal."

Phidias was an Athenian sculptor, the son of Charmides, and is generally acknowledged as the greatest ancient Greek sculptor and instigator of the classical style of the 5th and 4th centuries BC. Although few facts are known about his life, it is believed he lived from around 490 until 430 BC. No originals of his work exist, but his recognition as a renowned sculptor has been guaranteed due to the praise of ancient writers, as well as the influence his sculptures had on the development of the art. He gained most of his fame for his two enormous chryselephantine (gold and ivory) sculptures: One of Athena in the Parthenon, and the other of Zeus at Olympia. These statues had such a profound impact that they determined all subsequent conceptions of Athena and Zeus. Various people have been rumoured to be responsible for his training: Hegias of Athens, Agelades of Argos and the painter Polygnotus of Thasos. We know of two of Phidias' own pupils, noted by Pausanias, who were also his 'eromenoi' (younger boys taken as lovers by older men). The first, Agoracritus, went on to produce the sculpture of Nemesis at Rhamnus. The second, Pantarkes of Elis, won the boy's wrestling at Olympia in 436 B.C and seems to have been greatly admired by Phidias. This is confirmed by Pausanias' report that the boy was used by Phidias as a model for one of the figures that decorated his great statue of Zeus at Olympia. The piece was in the form of a triumphant athlete that stood at the base of the statue. Clement of Alexandria also writes that Phidias carved the words 'Kalos Pantarkes'('Pantarkes is beautiful') onto Zeus' little finger.

Phidias is known to have been closely connected with xxxxxx, as his friend and also as his adviser. When xxxxxx rose to power in 449 B.C. he set out to beautify Athens once more after the victory over Persia. Phidias was placed in charge of artistic activities as the superintendent of public works. He was commissioned to build the major statues for the city, and was paid by xxxxxx with money from the Delian League. It is generally believed that Phidias directed and supervised the construction of the Parthenon, as well as designing the sculptural decoration, of which the surviving pieces can be found in the British museum (the Elgin Marbles). The marble blocks that were to be used for the pediment statues of the building date from 434 BC, which is probably after Phidias' death. Therefore it is a possibility that much of the work was carried out by assistants or pupils, such as Agoracritus. Interestingly though, the mathematical golden ratio is represented by the Greek letter 'phi', taken from Phidias' name. This is because Phidias employed the ratio in making the Parthenon sculptures, which perfectly exhibit the proportions of the golden ratio.

There are varying accounts of Phidias' death, but it is generally acknowledged that he became the target of xxxxxx' political enemies, due to his close connection with him. Targetting Phidias was an attempt to harm xxxxxx' status. They first accused him of stealing gold from the Athena Parthenos in 432 BC, however Phidias was able to prove his innocence. They then charged him with impiety, based on the fact that he had included portraits of Pericles and himself in the decorations of Athena's shield. It was formerly believed that Phidias died in prison shortly after this, however it is now more likely that he was exiled to Elis were he lived out the rest of his days.

Phidias' colossal statue of Athena was housed in the Parthenon, known as the Athena Parthenos and recognised as the symbol of Athens, dating from 447 - 439 BC. As the original is lost, we form a general idea of the statue from Roman copies, as well as its representation on coins and gems. The chryselephantine statue stood 38 feet high, depicting the goddess standing upright with a spear in her left hand and a winged Nike (goddess of victory) in her right hand. She wore a helmet and a tunic covered by her characteristic snaked aegis, with an ornate shield and a serpent (representing Erichthonius) by her side. Her chiton (tunic) is fixed at the waist by two entwined serpents. In the middle of her helmet a sphinx is depicted, with a griffin shown in relief on either side. Her hair falls down in front of her breastplate, which bears a picture of Medusa's head in ivory. The flesh of her arms and face were also carved of ivory; the drapery made of beaten sheets of gold. This meant that the statue actually made up a great deal of the Athenian treasury, and in 296 BC Lachares replaced the gold with bronze in order to pay his army. Several ancient copies survive, the most notable being the Varvakeion Athena from 130 AD and the uncompleted Lenormant Athena; both are now in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

Phidias' second work on the same scale as the Athena Parthenos, was his gigantic statue of Zeus for the temple in Olympia. Dating from around 435 BC, the statue was counted as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It depicted Zeus seated on an huge throne, the back of which rose above his head, making the statue 42 feet high, occupying the full height of the temple. All that survives to give us an idea of what the sculpture looked like, are some small engraved coins from Elis, which show the composition of the figure and the rendering of the head. Zeus was bearded and wearing a cloak that was covered in sculpted decorations. In his right hand he held a Nike, and in his left was a sceptre with an eagle on top. Like the Athena Parthenos, the piece was chryselephantine, with ivory flesh and gold drapery. In 1958 a workshop was excavated at Olympia that is believed to have been where Phidias made his Zeus, on account of a drinking cup found there inscribed with the words 'I belong to Phidias'. Some tools and terracotta moulds were discovered which establish that gold was hammered into the moulds and then further decorated with glass and gems.

Other works that we know of by Phidias include two other statues of Athena for the Acropolis. The first, the Athena Promachos, was 30 feet high and therefore the tallest Athenian sculpture before Phidias went on to build the Athena Parthenos. The second was the Lemnian Athena, dedicated by colonists who were sent from Athens to Lemnos. There were also two further chryselephantine sculptures: an Athena for Pellene and an Aphrodite for Elis.

 

[larry_boy_44]

15.2 Cao Cao, military

Cáo Cāo (曹操; 155 – March 15, 220[1]) was a warlord and the penultimate Chancellor of the Eastern Han Dynasty who rose to great power during its final years in ancient China. As one of the central figures of the Three Kingdoms period, he laid the foundations for what was to become the Kingdom of Wei (also known as Cáo Wèi) and was posthumously titled Emperor Wu of Wei (魏武帝). Although often portrayed as a cruel and merciless tyrant, Cao Cao has also been praised as a brilliant ruler and military genius who treated his officers like his family. He was also skilled in poetry and the martial arts, and wrote many war journals.

Battle of GuanduIn the spring of 200, xxxxxxxxxx (袁紹), the most powerful warlord of the north, amassed more than 100,000 troops and marched from Ye on Xuchang. To defend against the invasion, Cao Cao placed 20,000 men at Guandu (官渡), a strategic landing point on the shore of the Yellow River which xxxxxxxxxxx's troops had to secure en route Xuchang (許昌).With a few diversionary tactics, Cao Cao managed to disorient Yuan Shao's troops as well as kill two of xxxxxx's most capable generals, xxxxxxx and xxxxxxx. The morale of xxxxxxxx's troops suffered a further blow when Cao Cao launched a stealth attack on the former's food store, xxxxxxxxxx. Many more of xxxxxxxxxx's men surrendered or deserted than were killed during the ensuing battle. When xxxxxxxxx eventually retreated back to Ye in the winter of 201, he did so with little more than 800 light cavalry.The Battle of Guandu shifted the balance of power in northern China. xxxxxxxxxxx (袁紹) died shortly after his retreat and his two sons were soon defeated by Cao Cao further in the northern regions of Liaodong (遼東). Since then, Cao Cao's dominance in the entirety of northern China was never seriously challenged. The battle has also been studied by military strategists ever since as a classic example of winning against an enemy with far superior numbers.

 

[Doug B]

Orange Crush gave me an idea on judging the wildcards- instead of doing it from 1-10, rank them from 1-20 where out of 60 wildcards I have to give 3 20s, three 19s, three 18s and so forth. This will make it equal to the other categories.I think this is a better way to do it, (though more difficult for me, especially since wildcards are almost impossible to compare.) However, because I previously said I would rank them from 1-10, I won't change to this new system if even a single drafter objects. Let me know.

Pretty good idea. It allows a little more stratification and separation within the WC judging.

 

[Orange Crush]

Sorry - I have Mario's picks via PM, I didn't realize he had come up:

I will do write ups later. But my next two people to pick are:

Henry Dunant - Humanitarian

- the originator of the Red Cross in 1862. The book he wrote became the basis for what we know the Red Cross to be today.

That's a monumental pick in the category.

 

[rodg12]

I'm pretty sure that the concept of celebrity being a 20th century convention was discussed in the signip thread.

No kidding. It's odd to me that drafters are getting blindsided by this.That said ... ISTM that almost every "bad" Celebrity pick is a very solid Wild Card for FFA voting. Name recognition does help in the voting.

Fair enough then. Wasn't aware of this, obviously. Good point about the Wild Card shift as well.

 

[rodg12]

Sorry - I have Mario's picks via PM, I didn't realize he had come up:

I will do write ups later. But my next two people to pick are:

Henry Dunant - Humanitarian

- the originator of the Red Cross in 1862. The book he wrote became the basis for what we know the Red Cross to be today.

That's a monumental pick in the category.

Couldn't believe he was still around.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

14.19 Queen, Musical Performer

I quit.

 

[rodg12]

Celebrities are images first, people second.

My question to you then, is this......does this mean the woman in the Mona Lisa is the greatest celebrity of all time???

Not to speak for flysack, but I'll weight in on that.The woman in the Mona Lisa is a reversal of what flysack wrote -- a case of the Image being the Celebrity.

The Celebrity being an Image means that someone's physical being is an Image. In and of itself.

Interesting. Kinda hard for me to wrap my head around this, but interesting nonetheless.