World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

[Thorn]

15.07, Wayne Gretsky, Athlete

 

[BobbyLayne]

I will be in a travel status and largely unavailable tomorrow - 12.5 hour flight back to JFK.

Ozy - OK if I send you a list in the morning for my 15.18 and 16.03 picks?

 

[larry_boy_44]

Pavarotti sings...

Freddie Mercury sings, plays multiple instruments, and writes his own stuff (some of which people have been pondering the meaning of for 30 years now)...

advantage Mercury...

If you want Freddie Mercury to be judged based on his ability to write songs, then you should have picked him for the Composer category.Separating composition from performance is why Tim created the two separate categories in the first place. Therefore Queen needs to be judged purely on their ability to perform.

Oh, and editing to add:

to a point, yes...I am much more impressed with people who play/write/sing than just those who sing...

and in terms of popularity and the # of people who have heard/like to hear, Queen destroys any opera singer...



its one of those things that will never have a definitive real answer... because those who like Opera will probably choose the Opera singer over the rock band... and those who like rock music are gonna pick the rock band....

 

[Ozymandias]

I will be in a travel status and largely unavailable tomorrow - 12.5 hour flight back to JFK.Ozy - OK if I send you a list in the morning for my 15.18 and 16.03 picks?

Yes, I will be available.

 

[timschochet]

Wayne Gretzky is a tremendous, amazing pick in the 15th round. In fact, it may very well be the best pick in the draft based on the round that it was made.

I am not a hockey fan or expert, but I do know that this is arguably the most dominant athlete at any professional sport, ever.

Just for comparison sake, were I in this draft, and told I could have either Wayne Gretzky as my athlete or Sun Tzu as my military pick (1.01) there is no question in my mind I would have taken Gretzky, and been very happy about it.

 

[thatguy]

I hate you Thorn. Gretzky was my next pick. Damn it.

 

[krista4]

If you want Freddie Mercury to be judged based on his ability to write songs, then you should have picked him for the Composer category.

Separating composition from performance is why Tim created the two separate categories in the first place. Therefore Queen needs to be judged purely on their ability to perform.

Oh, and editing to add:

I agree with you to a point on the bolded. But I do think you're overlooking that opera singers do more than just sing--they can emote and tell a story with their voices to an extent that most rock musicians can't. In a way, that's why Freddie Mercury was so good--even setting aside composing songs or playing instruments, just through use of his voice (without regard to lyrics) he could tell a story. The operatic influence on him is readily apparent.And it's worth mentioning that many people do like both. Your last sentence (or sentences--I can never tell with all the ellipses) seemed to suggest that there are "rock fans" and "opera fans". I am a "music fan" and love both.

But I do agree that this category is about performance, not composition, which is why separate categories were provided. On performance, I think you can make a good argument for Queen but they are not clearly above the opera singers (esp. Caruso ).

 

[timschochet]

The Greeat One is only the 9th athlete taken, so I suspect we will see many more off the board soon.

 

[mad sweeney]

Wayne Gretzky is a tremendous, amazing pick in the 15th round. In fact, it may very well be the best pick in the draft based on the round that it was made.I am not a hockey fan or expert, but I do know that this is arguably the most dominant athlete at any professional sport, ever. Just for comparison sake, were I in this draft, and told I could have either Wayne Gretzky as my athlete or Sun Tzu as my military pick (1.01) there is no question in my mind I would have taken Gretzky, and been very happy about it.

Fullyagree. Woildve taken him if available. It's almost impossible for anyone to be that much better than everyone else in any sport. Nice snipe.

 

[thatguy]

The Greeat One is only the 9th athlete taken, so I suspect we will see many more off the board soon.

I plan to wait at this point. Gretzky was heads and shoulders above the rest of my list, which is comprised of mostly Olympians. To me there is not much separating the remaining Olympians.

 

[Mario Kart]

Wayne Gretzky is a tremendous, amazing pick in the 15th round. In fact, it may very well be the best pick in the draft based on the round that it was made.I am not a hockey fan or expert, but I do know that this is arguably the most dominant athlete at any professional sport, ever. Just for comparison sake, were I in this draft, and told I could have either Wayne Gretzky as my athlete or Sun Tzu as my military pick (1.01) there is no question in my mind I would have taken Gretzky, and been very happy about it.

 

[Fennis]

I will be in a travel status and largely unavailable tomorrow - 12.5 hour flight back to JFK.

Ozy - OK if I send you a list in the morning for my 15.18 and 16.03 picks?

What kind of crazy flight is that? Tell them to fly west, not east.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

 

[dparker713]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

If you know anything about hockey, it really is.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I know the he did Opera...

but either way, Queen's performance at Live Aid was considered one of the greatest (if not the greatest) performances of all time... so i'm ok with basing this on performance...

This gets better and better. They don't make a smiley big enough for this.

Has to be shtick at this point. Has to be.

to a point, yes...

I am much more impressed with people who play/write/sing than just those who sing...

and in terms of popularity and the # of people who have heard/like to hear, Queen destroys any opera singer...



its one of those things that will never have a definitive real answer... because those who like Opera will probably choose the Opera singer over the rock band... and those who like rock music are gonna pick the rock band....

I agree with you to a point on the bolded. But I do think you're overlooking that opera singers do more than just sing--they can emote and tell a story with their voices to an extent that most rock musicians can't. In a way, that's why Freddie Mercury was so good--even setting aside composing songs or playing instruments, just through use of his voice (without regard to lyrics) he could tell a story. The operatic influence on him is readily apparent.And it's worth mentioning that many people do like both. Your last sentence (or sentences--I can never tell with all the ellipses) seemed to suggest that there are "rock fans" and "opera fans". I am a "music fan" and love both.

But I do agree that this category is about performance, not composition, which is why separate categories were provided. On performance, I think you can make a good argument for Queen but they are not clearly above the opera singers (esp. Caruso ).

I understand the emoting of their voices and all of that, I do... I get why people claim opera singers are better...

but at the end of the day they're just singing, and good singers are a dime a dozen, there's millions of them, just look at American Idol... Every person on that show has a voice that is as good as, and possibly better than, top recording artists going right now... and there's thousands (if not tens of thousands) turned away each year who the same could be said of...

I guess I just don't think of singing as that great... It can be good, but good singers are everywhere...

either way, though, I'll win the popular vote with Queen...

 

[Uncle Humuna]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

He's no Freddie Mercury . . .

 

[flysack]

This is another pick I've been holding onto for a while. He obviously wouldn't score very well on my scale for worldwide recognition (at least not currently), but his standard of greatness as a sculptor is generally deemed to be unprecedented and his classical style effectively set the stage for all sculpture to follow (after about a 1000 year intermission).

Phidias - Artist/Non-Painter

Phidias was an Athenian sculptor, the son of Charmides, and is generally acknowledged as the greatest ancient Greek sculptor and instigator of the classical style of the 5th and 4th centuries BC. Although few facts are known about his life, it is believed he lived from around 490 until 430 BC. No originals of his work exist, but his recognition as a renowned sculptor has been guaranteed due to the praise of ancient writers, as well as the influence his sculptures had on the development of the art. He gained most of his fame for his two enormous chryselephantine (gold and ivory) sculptures: One of Athena in the Parthenon, and the other of Zeus at Olympia. These statues had such a profound impact that they determined all subsequent conceptions of Athena and Zeus. Various people have been rumoured to be responsible for his training: Hegias of Athens, Agelades of Argos and the painter Polygnotus of Thasos. We know of two of Phidias' own pupils, noted by Pausanias, who were also his 'eromenoi' (younger boys taken as lovers by older men). The first, Agoracritus, went on to produce the sculpture of Nemesis at Rhamnus. The second, Pantarkes of Elis, won the boy's wrestling at Olympia in 436 B.C and seems to have been greatly admired by Phidias. This is confirmed by Pausanias' report that the boy was used by Phidias as a model for one of the figures that decorated his great statue of Zeus at Olympia. The piece was in the form of a triumphant athlete that stood at the base of the statue. Clement of Alexandria also writes that Phidias carved the words 'Kalos Pantarkes'('Pantarkes is beautiful') onto Zeus' little finger.

Phidias is known to have been closely connected with xxxxxx, as his friend and also as his adviser. When xxxxxx rose to power in 449 B.C. he set out to beautify Athens once more after the victory over Persia. Phidias was placed in charge of artistic activities as the superintendent of public works. He was commissioned to build the major statues for the city, and was paid by xxxxxx with money from the Delian League. It is generally believed that Phidias directed and supervised the construction of the Parthenon, as well as designing the sculptural decoration, of which the surviving pieces can be found in the British museum (the Elgin Marbles). The marble blocks that were to be used for the pediment statues of the building date from 434 BC, which is probably after Phidias' death. Therefore it is a possibility that much of the work was carried out by assistants or pupils, such as Agoracritus. Interestingly though, the mathematical golden ratio is represented by the Greek letter 'phi', taken from Phidias' name. This is because Phidias employed the ratio in making the Parthenon sculptures, which perfectly exhibit the proportions of the golden ratio.

There are varying accounts of Phidias' death, but it is generally acknowledged that he became the target of xxxxxx' political enemies, due to his close connection with him. Targetting Phidias was an attempt to harm xxxxxx' status. They first accused him of stealing gold from the Athena Parthenos in 432 BC, however Phidias was able to prove his innocence. They then charged him with impiety, based on the fact that he had included portraits of Pericles and himself in the decorations of Athena's shield. It was formerly believed that Phidias died in prison shortly after this, however it is now more likely that he was exiled to Elis were he lived out the rest of his days.

Phidias' colossal statue of Athena was housed in the Parthenon, known as the Athena Parthenos and recognised as the symbol of Athens, dating from 447 - 439 BC. As the original is lost, we form a general idea of the statue from Roman copies, as well as its representation on coins and gems. The chryselephantine statue stood 38 feet high, depicting the goddess standing upright with a spear in her left hand and a winged Nike (goddess of victory) in her right hand. She wore a helmet and a tunic covered by her characteristic snaked aegis, with an ornate shield and a serpent (representing Erichthonius) by her side. Her chiton (tunic) is fixed at the waist by two entwined serpents. In the middle of her helmet a sphinx is depicted, with a griffin shown in relief on either side. Her hair falls down in front of her breastplate, which bears a picture of Medusa's head in ivory. The flesh of her arms and face were also carved of ivory; the drapery made of beaten sheets of gold. This meant that the statue actually made up a great deal of the Athenian treasury, and in 296 BC Lachares replaced the gold with bronze in order to pay his army. Several ancient copies survive, the most notable being the Varvakeion Athena from 130 AD and the uncompleted Lenormant Athena; both are now in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

Phidias' second work on the same scale as the Athena Parthenos, was his gigantic statue of Zeus for the temple in Olympia. Dating from around 435 BC, the statue was counted as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It depicted Zeus seated on an huge throne, the back of which rose above his head, making the statue 42 feet high, occupying the full height of the temple. All that survives to give us an idea of what the sculpture looked like, are some small engraved coins from Elis, which show the composition of the figure and the rendering of the head. Zeus was bearded and wearing a cloak that was covered in sculpted decorations. In his right hand he held a Nike, and in his left was a sceptre with an eagle on top. Like the Athena Parthenos, the piece was chryselephantine, with ivory flesh and gold drapery. In 1958 a workshop was excavated at Olympia that is believed to have been where Phidias made his Zeus, on account of a drinking cup found there inscribed with the words 'I belong to Phidias'. Some tools and terracotta moulds were discovered which establish that gold was hammered into the moulds and then further decorated with glass and gems.

Other works that we know of by Phidias include two other statues of Athena for the Acropolis. The first, the Athena Promachos, was 30 feet high and therefore the tallest Athenian sculpture before Phidias went on to build the Athena Parthenos. The second was the Lemnian Athena, dedicated by colonists who were sent from Athens to Lemnos. There were also two further chryselephantine sculptures: an Athena for Pellene and an Aphrodite for Elis.

HELLO?Is this thing on?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a complete effing b.s. pick that cannot be allowed?

Maybe you can produce some original copies of Socrates' writings? Or Sun- Tzu? Or Homer? Just because the originals don't exist doesn't mean we don't know what they looked like through Roman reproductions and descriptions from numerous sources. No one seriously questions whether or not Phidias lived, how he was regarded both in his time and later, and what his influence on sculpture is.

Ideas collaborated with evidence of actual living people are fine for philosophers. When we judge Sun Tzu, we're really judging The Art of War. When we judge Plato or Aristotle, we're judging their writing. When we judge Socrates, we judge the early Platonic dialogues backed up by numerous accounts of his life. What are we judging Phidas on?

An artist is ultimately defined by his work. If there are no originals of his work, you're basically asking us to judge him based on what Athenian art critics thought.

I'm not saying you can't draft him. I am saying that this is, BY FAR, the worst effing pick of the draft. AOD, I'm really surprised you're the one making it.

 

[Ozymandias]

This is another pick I've been holding onto for a while. He obviously wouldn't score very well on my scale for worldwide recognition (at least not currently), but his standard of greatness as a sculptor is generally deemed to be unprecedented and his classical style effectively set the stage for all sculpture to follow (after about a 1000 year intermission).

Phidias - Artist/Non-Painter

Phidias was an Athenian sculptor, the son of Charmides, and is generally acknowledged as the greatest ancient Greek sculptor and instigator of the classical style of the 5th and 4th centuries BC. Although few facts are known about his life, it is believed he lived from around 490 until 430 BC. No originals of his work exist, but his recognition as a renowned sculptor has been guaranteed due to the praise of ancient writers, as well as the influence his sculptures had on the development of the art. He gained most of his fame for his two enormous chryselephantine (gold and ivory) sculptures: One of Athena in the Parthenon, and the other of Zeus at Olympia. These statues had such a profound impact that they determined all subsequent conceptions of Athena and Zeus. Various people have been rumoured to be responsible for his training: Hegias of Athens, Agelades of Argos and the painter Polygnotus of Thasos. We know of two of Phidias' own pupils, noted by Pausanias, who were also his 'eromenoi' (younger boys taken as lovers by older men). The first, Agoracritus, went on to produce the sculpture of Nemesis at Rhamnus. The second, Pantarkes of Elis, won the boy's wrestling at Olympia in 436 B.C and seems to have been greatly admired by Phidias. This is confirmed by Pausanias' report that the boy was used by Phidias as a model for one of the figures that decorated his great statue of Zeus at Olympia. The piece was in the form of a triumphant athlete that stood at the base of the statue. Clement of Alexandria also writes that Phidias carved the words 'Kalos Pantarkes'('Pantarkes is beautiful') onto Zeus' little finger.

Phidias is known to have been closely connected with xxxxxx, as his friend and also as his adviser. When xxxxxx rose to power in 449 B.C. he set out to beautify Athens once more after the victory over Persia. Phidias was placed in charge of artistic activities as the superintendent of public works. He was commissioned to build the major statues for the city, and was paid by xxxxxx with money from the Delian League. It is generally believed that Phidias directed and supervised the construction of the Parthenon, as well as designing the sculptural decoration, of which the surviving pieces can be found in the British museum (the Elgin Marbles). The marble blocks that were to be used for the pediment statues of the building date from 434 BC, which is probably after Phidias' death. Therefore it is a possibility that much of the work was carried out by assistants or pupils, such as Agoracritus. Interestingly though, the mathematical golden ratio is represented by the Greek letter 'phi', taken from Phidias' name. This is because Phidias employed the ratio in making the Parthenon sculptures, which perfectly exhibit the proportions of the golden ratio.

There are varying accounts of Phidias' death, but it is generally acknowledged that he became the target of xxxxxx' political enemies, due to his close connection with him. Targetting Phidias was an attempt to harm xxxxxx' status. They first accused him of stealing gold from the Athena Parthenos in 432 BC, however Phidias was able to prove his innocence. They then charged him with impiety, based on the fact that he had included portraits of Pericles and himself in the decorations of Athena's shield. It was formerly believed that Phidias died in prison shortly after this, however it is now more likely that he was exiled to Elis were he lived out the rest of his days.

Phidias' colossal statue of Athena was housed in the Parthenon, known as the Athena Parthenos and recognised as the symbol of Athens, dating from 447 - 439 BC. As the original is lost, we form a general idea of the statue from Roman copies, as well as its representation on coins and gems. The chryselephantine statue stood 38 feet high, depicting the goddess standing upright with a spear in her left hand and a winged Nike (goddess of victory) in her right hand. She wore a helmet and a tunic covered by her characteristic snaked aegis, with an ornate shield and a serpent (representing Erichthonius) by her side. Her chiton (tunic) is fixed at the waist by two entwined serpents. In the middle of her helmet a sphinx is depicted, with a griffin shown in relief on either side. Her hair falls down in front of her breastplate, which bears a picture of Medusa's head in ivory. The flesh of her arms and face were also carved of ivory; the drapery made of beaten sheets of gold. This meant that the statue actually made up a great deal of the Athenian treasury, and in 296 BC Lachares replaced the gold with bronze in order to pay his army. Several ancient copies survive, the most notable being the Varvakeion Athena from 130 AD and the uncompleted Lenormant Athena; both are now in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

Phidias' second work on the same scale as the Athena Parthenos, was his gigantic statue of Zeus for the temple in Olympia. Dating from around 435 BC, the statue was counted as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It depicted Zeus seated on an huge throne, the back of which rose above his head, making the statue 42 feet high, occupying the full height of the temple. All that survives to give us an idea of what the sculpture looked like, are some small engraved coins from Elis, which show the composition of the figure and the rendering of the head. Zeus was bearded and wearing a cloak that was covered in sculpted decorations. In his right hand he held a Nike, and in his left was a sceptre with an eagle on top. Like the Athena Parthenos, the piece was chryselephantine, with ivory flesh and gold drapery. In 1958 a workshop was excavated at Olympia that is believed to have been where Phidias made his Zeus, on account of a drinking cup found there inscribed with the words 'I belong to Phidias'. Some tools and terracotta moulds were discovered which establish that gold was hammered into the moulds and then further decorated with glass and gems.

Other works that we know of by Phidias include two other statues of Athena for the Acropolis. The first, the Athena Promachos, was 30 feet high and therefore the tallest Athenian sculpture before Phidias went on to build the Athena Parthenos. The second was the Lemnian Athena, dedicated by colonists who were sent from Athens to Lemnos. There were also two further chryselephantine sculptures: an Athena for Pellene and an Aphrodite for Elis.

HELLO?Is this thing on?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a complete effing b.s. pick that cannot be allowed?

Maybe you can produce some original copies of Socrates' writings? Or Sun- Tzu? Or Homer? Just because the originals don't exist doesn't mean we don't know what they looked like through Roman reproductions and descriptions from numerous sources. No one seriously questions whether or not Phidias lived, how he was regarded both in his time and later, and what his influence on sculpture is.

Ideas collaborated with evidence of actual living people are fine for philosophers.An artist is ultimately defined by his work. If there are no originals of his work, you're basically asking us to judge him based on what Athenian art critics thought.

I'm not saying you can't draft him. I am saying this is, BY FAR, the worst effing pick of the draft. AOD, I'm really surprised you're the one making it.

Exactly. You can get one copy of Plato's Dialogues and it's pretty much the same as any other. You don't need to have the original.Now go to an art auction, and say: "I can't sell you 'The Night Watch' by Rembrandt, but I have a pretty good copy here. How much do you offer me? You'll be lucky if you make it out alive.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I will be in a travel status and largely unavailable tomorrow - 12.5 hour flight back to JFK.

Ozy - OK if I send you a list in the morning for my 15.18 and 16.03 picks?

What kind of crazy flight is that? Tell them to fly west, not east.

Dangit, I knew Cebu was a screwy connection.



I only stayed in Paris a couple days, been in Bucharest all week. 3.5 hours afternoon to London, 90 minute layover, 7.5 hours going back. Only saving grace is business class.

Internal clock has been screwed up all week, but I know I'll be wired when I get back. I'm gonna sleep about 30 hours this weekend.

 

[Mario Kart]

This guy may not be well known in America, other than the from the movie V for Vendetta, but he goes deeper. The infamous Gunpowder Plot was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament in England. If successful, with some deaths, it would have thrown the government into turmoil... much like another plot some 300 years later in America. The Gunpowder Plot was an attempt to disrupt the religion and government of one of the "super powers" of its time. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the Plot failed and this guy paid with his life. Mario Kart selected:

14.20 - Guy Fawkes - Rebel

Guy Fawkes or Guido Fawkes (he adopted the name "Guido"—in which he was indicted—while fighting for the Spanish in the Low Countries)[1][2] (13 April 1570 – 31 January 1606) was a member of a group of Roman Catholic restorationists from England that planned the Gunpowder Plot.[3] The plot's aim was to displace Protestant rule by blowing up the Houses of Parliament while someone and the entire Protestant and even most of the Catholic aristocracy and nobility were inside. The conspirators saw this as a reaction to systematic discrimination against English Roman Catholics.[4]

Fawkes left a lasting mark on history and popular culture. Bonfire Night, held on November 5 in the United Kingdom (and some parts of the Commonwealth), commemorates Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot. Geographical locations are named after Fawkes, such as Isla Guy Fawkes in the Galápagos Islands and Guy Fawkes River in Australia.

------ ROUND 15 ----------

Theory versus doer? Originator versus practitioner? I am in the mindset that something has to be thought of with reason before something is done. Chicken or egg? Something has to hatch before an animal is present. Therefore, I am going with someone who has an original thought to help people of all creeds, no matter what the situation. With the start of the fifteenth round, Mario Kart takes:

15.01 - Henry Dunant - Humanitarian

Jean Henri Dunant (May 8, 1828 – October 30, 1910), aka Henry Dunant or Henri Dunant, was a Swiss businessman and social activist. During a business trip in 1859, he was witness to the aftermath of the Battle of Solferino in modern day Italy. He recorded his memories and experiences in the book A Memory of Solferino which inspired the creation of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in 1863.

The Red Cross

After returning to Geneva early in July, Dunant decided to write a book about his experiences, which he titled Un Souvenir de Solferino (A Memory of Solferino). It was published in 1862 in an edition of 1,600 copies and was printed at Dunant's own expense. Within the book, he described the battle, its costs, and the chaotic circumstances afterwards. He also developed the idea that in the future a neutral organization should exist to provide care to wounded soldiers. He distributed the book to many leading political and military figures in Europe.

Mario Kart

Leaders -

Military - Sun Tzu (post #45) (1.01)

Scientist - Dmitri Mendeleev (post #4660) (13.01)

Inventor -

Discoverer/Explorer - Giovanni da Pian del Carpine (post #1281) (2.20)

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr - Henry Dunant (post #5205) (15.01)

Novelist/Short stories - J. R. R. Tolkien (post #3003)(6.20)

Playwrights/Poets - Geoffrey Chaucer (post #1295) (3.01)

Villain - Ho Chi Minh (post #3916) (10.20)

Athlete -

Composer - Antonio Vivaldi (post #3403) (9.01)

Musicians/Performers -

Painter - Claude Monet (post #2236) (4.20)

Artist/Non-Painter - Auguste Rodin (post #2248) (5.01)

Philosopher - Jean Piaget (post #4660) (12.20)

Religious Figure - Pope Gregory XIII (post #3371) (8.20)

Celebrity -

Intellectual - John Maynard Keynes (post #3003) (7.01)

Rebel - Guy Fawkes (post #5205) (14.20)

Wildcards - Gavrilo Princip (post #3916) (11.01)

Wildcards -

Wildcards -

 

[higgins]

I will be in a travel status and largely unavailable tomorrow - 12.5 hour flight back to JFK.Ozy - OK if I send you a list in the morning for my 15.18 and 16.03 picks?

Just missed you -- now home after flying out of JFK.

 

[DCThunder]

15.08--Jules Verne-Novelist

The Father of Science Fiction, Jules Verne wrote such classic novels as 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea, From the Earth to the Moon, The Mysterious Island, Around the World in 80 Days and Journey to the Center of the Earth. He wrote about outer space, underwater travel (submarines) and air travel before they had really been invented. He is one of the most translated authors of all time and many of his books have been converted into thrilling movies, form as far back as the dawn of moving pictures.

This will be my last pick. From now on, my draft is in the hands of misfit blondes.

 

[Thorn]

That pick stand I'm out.An artist with no surviving work?NFWI guarentee you at least 19 people in this draft thought about him and said nope, that would be absurd.

I hope you're kidding here. Make your case why it's a bad pick, even the worst in the draft, but don't quit.

 

[Thorn]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

I know contrarians and Pittsburghers like to argue for Lemieux. You aren't from Pittsburgh, are you larry?

 

[krista4]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

I know contrarians and Pittsburghers like to argue for Lemieux. You aren't from Pittsburgh, are you larry?

Crazy-talk.And I'm not one to put so much faith into statistics, but this is one that's always blown me away: Gretzky, even if you take away all his goals as the all-time regular season goals leader, has more regular-season assists than the next highest person to him has in total points.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

I know contrarians and Pittsburghers like to argue for Lemieux. You aren't from Pittsburgh, are you larry?

no...

 

[DCThunder]

This will be my last pick. From now on, my draft is in the hands of misfit blondes.

I resent you the list in a PM. Hope you can understand it. Thanks again for the relief pitching.

 

[Thorn]

As a hockey fan I'm totally psyched to get Gretzky.

Fun facts:

When he retired in 1999, they waived the waiting period and inducted him immediately into the HOF.

Upon retirement, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star records.

He is the only NHL player to total over 200 points in one season. Oh, and he did it four times.

He had over 100 points in 15 NHL seasons, 13 of them consecutively.

Gretzky's #99 has been retired by all teams in the National Hockey League. He is one of only two athletes to have earned this honor from a major professional sport, and the only one strictly for his play. Though I seriously doubt, even if the number wasn't retired, that any player would have the cojones to wear 99 ever again.

By the age of ten he had scored 378 goals and 120 assists in just 85 games with the Brantford Nadrofsky Steelers.

At 16, in his single year at the major junior level, Gretzky surpassed the OMJHL single-season scoring record, winning the OMJHL Rookie of the Year and Most Sportsmanlike awards.

He was selected to play for Canada at the 1978 World Junior Championships. The youngest player in the tournament, he finished as the top scorer, was voted to the All-Star team, and was named Best Forward.

In his first NHL season he was awarded the Hart Memorial Trophy as the League's Most Valuable Player - the first of eight in a row.

In his second season, Gretzky won the Art Ross (the first of seven consecutive) with a then-record 164 points, breaking both Bobby Orr's record for assists in a season (102) and Phil Esposito's record for points in a season (152).

He ended the 1981–82 season with records of 92 goals, 120 assists, for a total of 212 points in 80 games, becoming the first and only player in NHL history to break the 200–point mark. That year, Gretzky became the first hockey player and first Canadian to be named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year. He was also named 1982 "Sportsman of the Year" by Sports Illustrated.

By the time he finished playing in Edmonton, he held or shared 49 NHL records, which in itself was a record, and the Oilers had won five Stanley Cups in seven years.

On his first appearance in Edmonton after being traded to the LA Kings—a game that was nationally televised in Canada—he received a four-minute standing ovation. The arena was sold out, and the attendance of 17,503 was the Oilers' biggest crowd ever to that date.

He accomplished what a certain soccer player couldn't: introduce a sport to California and have it succeed. There would be no Ducks or Sharks without Gretzky.

He won the Lady Byng Trophy (sportsmanship) four times.

One of my favorite stats: at the end of three different seasons, Gretzky was so far and away the scoring leader that you could have thrown out his goals and he still would have won the scoring title on assists alone. 82-83: 125 assists, Peter Stasky was second in scoring with 124 points (goals and assists added together); 85-86: 163 assists, Jari Kurri was second in the league with 135 points; 86-87: 121 assists, Kurri was second in scoring with 108 points. In 82-83 he would have tied on just assists (135, Kurri second in scoring with 135 points), and he came reasonably close in 90-91 (122 assists, Brett Hull was second in scoring with 131 points). That's like a baseball player having more RBIs than any other player had RBIs and runs combined. Crazy.

 

[Thorn]

Crazy-talk.

And I'm not one to put so much faith into statistics, but this is one that's always blown me away: Gretzky, even if you take away all his goals as the all-time regular season goals leader, has more regular-season assists than the next highest person to him has in total points.

One of my favorite stats: at the end of three different seasons, Gretzky was so far and away the scoring leader that you could have thrown out his goals and he still would have won the scoring title on assists alone. 82-83: 125 assists, Peter Stasky was second in scoring with 124 points (goals and assists added together); 85-86: 163 assists, Jari Kurri was second in the league with 135 points; 86-87: 121 assists, Kurri was second in scoring with 108 points. In 82-83 he would have tied on just assists (135, Kurri second in scoring with 135 points), and he came reasonably close in 90-91 (122 assists, Brett Hull was second in scoring with 131 points). That's like a baseball player having more RBIs than any other player had RBIs and runs combined. Crazy.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

I know contrarians and Pittsburghers like to argue for Lemieux. You aren't from Pittsburgh, are you larry?

Crazy-talk.And I'm not one to put so much faith into statistics, but this is one that's always blown me away: Gretzky, even if you take away all his goals as the all-time regular season goals leader, has more regular-season assists than the next highest person to him has in total points.

Yep. Now take a look at the great players he was fortunate enough to pass the puck to. If we were allowed to draft teams, give me the 83-90 Oilers over any other team from any era. Save for maybe the 20's Yankees. You can say this was due to Wayne, and he was a key, but don't forget the Oilers actually won a Stanley Cup after he was traded. By my count, 3 of his teammates are among the best ever to play the game. Two other offensive players are close to Wayne, one from another era and Mario. Mario only scored .04 ppg less and was better on defense. He just didn't play long enough to get records, or with as dominant a team. At least arguably, both of them had a more complete game. Not to mention some great defensemen and goalies.

Wayne probably is the best ever to play the game, but is he "the most dominant ever in any sport"?

 

[the moops]

Though I seriously doubt, even if the number wasn't retired, that any player would have the cojones to wear 99 ever again.

Pretty sure there would be a #99 on every team.

 

[Thorn]

Though I seriously doubt, even if the number wasn't retired, that any player would have the cojones to wear 99 ever again.

Pretty sure there would be a #99 on every team.

Well you would be incorrect sir. The players have too much respect for the game's history to do that.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

This is another pick I've been holding onto for a while. He obviously wouldn't score very well on my scale for worldwide recognition (at least not currently), but his standard of greatness as a sculptor is generally deemed to be unprecedented and his classical style effectively set the stage for all sculpture to follow (after about a 1000 year intermission).

Phidias - Artist/Non-Painter

Phidias was an Athenian sculptor, the son of Charmides, and is generally acknowledged as the greatest ancient Greek sculptor and instigator of the classical style of the 5th and 4th centuries BC. Although few facts are known about his life, it is believed he lived from around 490 until 430 BC. No originals of his work exist, but his recognition as a renowned sculptor has been guaranteed due to the praise of ancient writers, as well as the influence his sculptures had on the development of the art. He gained most of his fame for his two enormous chryselephantine (gold and ivory) sculptures: One of Athena in the Parthenon, and the other of Zeus at Olympia. These statues had such a profound impact that they determined all subsequent conceptions of Athena and Zeus. Various people have been rumoured to be responsible for his training: Hegias of Athens, Agelades of Argos and the painter Polygnotus of Thasos. We know of two of Phidias' own pupils, noted by Pausanias, who were also his 'eromenoi' (younger boys taken as lovers by older men). The first, Agoracritus, went on to produce the sculpture of Nemesis at Rhamnus. The second, Pantarkes of Elis, won the boy's wrestling at Olympia in 436 B.C and seems to have been greatly admired by Phidias. This is confirmed by Pausanias' report that the boy was used by Phidias as a model for one of the figures that decorated his great statue of Zeus at Olympia. The piece was in the form of a triumphant athlete that stood at the base of the statue. Clement of Alexandria also writes that Phidias carved the words 'Kalos Pantarkes'('Pantarkes is beautiful') onto Zeus' little finger.

Phidias is known to have been closely connected with xxxxxx, as his friend and also as his adviser. When xxxxxx rose to power in 449 B.C. he set out to beautify Athens once more after the victory over Persia. Phidias was placed in charge of artistic activities as the superintendent of public works. He was commissioned to build the major statues for the city, and was paid by xxxxxx with money from the Delian League. It is generally believed that Phidias directed and supervised the construction of the Parthenon, as well as designing the sculptural decoration, of which the surviving pieces can be found in the British museum (the Elgin Marbles). The marble blocks that were to be used for the pediment statues of the building date from 434 BC, which is probably after Phidias' death. Therefore it is a possibility that much of the work was carried out by assistants or pupils, such as Agoracritus. Interestingly though, the mathematical golden ratio is represented by the Greek letter 'phi', taken from Phidias' name. This is because Phidias employed the ratio in making the Parthenon sculptures, which perfectly exhibit the proportions of the golden ratio.

There are varying accounts of Phidias' death, but it is generally acknowledged that he became the target of xxxxxx' political enemies, due to his close connection with him. Targetting Phidias was an attempt to harm xxxxxx' status. They first accused him of stealing gold from the Athena Parthenos in 432 BC, however Phidias was able to prove his innocence. They then charged him with impiety, based on the fact that he had included portraits of Pericles and himself in the decorations of Athena's shield. It was formerly believed that Phidias died in prison shortly after this, however it is now more likely that he was exiled to Elis were he lived out the rest of his days.

Phidias' colossal statue of Athena was housed in the Parthenon, known as the Athena Parthenos and recognised as the symbol of Athens, dating from 447 - 439 BC. As the original is lost, we form a general idea of the statue from Roman copies, as well as its representation on coins and gems. The chryselephantine statue stood 38 feet high, depicting the goddess standing upright with a spear in her left hand and a winged Nike (goddess of victory) in her right hand. She wore a helmet and a tunic covered by her characteristic snaked aegis, with an ornate shield and a serpent (representing Erichthonius) by her side. Her chiton (tunic) is fixed at the waist by two entwined serpents. In the middle of her helmet a sphinx is depicted, with a griffin shown in relief on either side. Her hair falls down in front of her breastplate, which bears a picture of Medusa's head in ivory. The flesh of her arms and face were also carved of ivory; the drapery made of beaten sheets of gold. This meant that the statue actually made up a great deal of the Athenian treasury, and in 296 BC Lachares replaced the gold with bronze in order to pay his army. Several ancient copies survive, the most notable being the Varvakeion Athena from 130 AD and the uncompleted Lenormant Athena; both are now in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens.

Phidias' second work on the same scale as the Athena Parthenos, was his gigantic statue of Zeus for the temple in Olympia. Dating from around 435 BC, the statue was counted as one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It depicted Zeus seated on an huge throne, the back of which rose above his head, making the statue 42 feet high, occupying the full height of the temple. All that survives to give us an idea of what the sculpture looked like, are some small engraved coins from Elis, which show the composition of the figure and the rendering of the head. Zeus was bearded and wearing a cloak that was covered in sculpted decorations. In his right hand he held a Nike, and in his left was a sceptre with an eagle on top. Like the Athena Parthenos, the piece was chryselephantine, with ivory flesh and gold drapery. In 1958 a workshop was excavated at Olympia that is believed to have been where Phidias made his Zeus, on account of a drinking cup found there inscribed with the words 'I belong to Phidias'. Some tools and terracotta moulds were discovered which establish that gold was hammered into the moulds and then further decorated with glass and gems.

Other works that we know of by Phidias include two other statues of Athena for the Acropolis. The first, the Athena Promachos, was 30 feet high and therefore the tallest Athenian sculpture before Phidias went on to build the Athena Parthenos. The second was the Lemnian Athena, dedicated by colonists who were sent from Athens to Lemnos. There were also two further chryselephantine sculptures: an Athena for Pellene and an Aphrodite for Elis.

HELLO?Is this thing on?

Am I the only person that thinks this is a complete effing b.s. pick that cannot be allowed?

Maybe you can produce some original copies of Socrates' writings? Or Sun- Tzu? Or Homer? Just because the originals don't exist doesn't mean we don't know what they looked like through Roman reproductions and descriptions from numerous sources. No one seriously questions whether or not Phidias lived, how he was regarded both in his time and later, and what his influence on sculpture is.

Ideas collaborated with evidence of actual living people are fine for philosophers.An artist is ultimately defined by his work. If there are no originals of his work, you're basically asking us to judge him based on what Athenian art critics thought.

I'm not saying you can't draft him. I am saying this is, BY FAR, the worst effing pick of the draft. AOD, I'm really surprised you're the one making it.

Exactly. You can get one copy of Plato's Dialogues and it's pretty much the same as any other. You don't need to have the original.Now go to an art auction, and say: "I can't sell you 'The Night Watch' by Rembrandt, but I have a pretty good copy here. How much do you offer me? You'll be lucky if you make it out alive.

You guys, of course, make some good points. However, there are few things that I think should also be considered. First and foremost, this isn't an Art judging contest. When I judge any of the other artists, I'm not going to spend hours studying their paintings or sculptures (though I have for some of them) and weighing the merits of their individual compositions, techniques or use of color that I happen to enjoy or prefer. I'll be weighing their place in Art history, considering their relative importance and and standing. On the questions of influence and importance, you will be hard pressed to find an Historian or Art Historian who would try to minimize the contributions of Phidias. Secondly, when you say you have read Plato's dialogs, have you read them in the original Greek? Or even Latin? Yes, you can get the same understanding of Plato's ideas from his translated works, but you are also getting the influences of, in most cases, layers of translations and the writers who copied those works into other languages. The same holds true for Homer, or even contemporary writers in foreign languages. Unless you read from the original language you are, to one degree or another, under the influence of the translator. So while we don't have the "source" works to look at for Phidias, we certainly have a good understanding of what his work looked like through the Roman artists who copied his works. The ideas and imagery that Phidias conveyed are as clear as the ideas of Plato are translated into English.

Anyway, the worst thing that can happen here is that Tim puts him 20th. I think it's a little hyperbole to say the taking someone regarded as possibly the greatest sculptor ever to walk the earth is the worst pick the draft relative to his category, but I'm really fine with that. I've been intentionally trying to highlight from people from history who most people probably don't know much about and I think this draft is better for having Phidias as a part of it.

 

[Thorn]

15.07, Wayne Gretsky, Athlete

As a hockey fan I'm totally psyched to get Gretzky.

I was in a rush. I understand delayed offsides. Oh, and icing. So there.

 

[Thorn]

15.07, Wayne Gretsky, Athlete

As a hockey fan I'm totally psyched to get Gretzky.

I was in a rush. I understand delayed offsides. Oh, and icing. So there.

Rumour has it the Athletes judge is Canadian so I would be willing to bet Gretzky will end up with a good ranking.

Well I would be honoured if that ends up being the case.

 

[Fennis]

15.07, Wayne Gretsky, Athlete

As a hockey fan I'm totally psyched to get Gretzky.

I was in a rush. I understand delayed offsides. Oh, and icing. So there.

Rumour has it the Athletes judge is Canadian so I would be willing to bet Gretzky will end up with a good ranking.

No Gretzky, NHLwould still be Canadian. Oh and its "rumor", stop adding 'u' to words.

 

[Fennis]

Rumour has it the Athletes judge is Canadian so I would be willing to bet Gretzky will end up with a good ranking.

Well I would be honoured if that ends up being the case.

 

[Fennis]

Oh and its "rumor", stop adding 'u' to words.

I'll try to leave out the "u"...as a favour to you.

IN for the G.C.D.

 

[dparker713]

I'm not sure its as much of a lock that Gretzky was the greatest hockey player ever as tim thinks it is...

I know contrarians and Pittsburghers like to argue for Lemieux. You aren't from Pittsburgh, are you larry?

Crazy-talk.And I'm not one to put so much faith into statistics, but this is one that's always blown me away: Gretzky, even if you take away all his goals as the all-time regular season goals leader, has more regular-season assists than the next highest person to him has in total points.

Yep. Now take a look at the great players he was fortunate enough to pass the puck to. If we were allowed to draft teams, give me the 83-90 Oilers over any other team from any era. Save for maybe the 20's Yankees. You can say this was due to Wayne, and he was a key, but don't forget the Oilers actually won a Stanley Cup after he was traded. By my count, 3 of his teammates are among the best ever to play the game. Two other offensive players are close to Wayne, one from another era and Mario. Mario only scored .04 ppg less and was better on defense. He just didn't play long enough to get records, or with as dominant a team. At least arguably, both of them had a more complete game. Not to mention some great defensemen and goalies.

Wayne probably is the best ever to play the game, but is he "the most dominant ever in any sport"?

Which 3 of Gretz' teammates were among the best ever? Mess sure, but who else? And Gretzky was a very good defender, he just couldnt muscle people around. But he was alway in the right position and always made the smart play, hence he was a great penalty killer. His defense, like every other part of his game other than checking, was an asset. And seriously, no one else is even close to Gretzky other than Mario on a per game basis, and Mario just couldnt stay healthy.

 

[Zaxxon]

Just wanted to pop in and say that the important part of being a celebrity in my eyes is being well-known. HTH.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Just wanted to pop in and say that the important part of being a celebrity in my eyes is being well-known. HTH.

Well, that clears things up.

 

[timschochet]

thanks, Zaxxon!

At least we know we have a celebrity judge now.

 

[mad sweeney]

Just wanted to pop in and say that the important part of being a celebrity in my eyes is being well-known. HTH.

Cool so 90-95% of the people in the entire draft are eligible...

 

[mad sweeney]

You can add Phoenix Coyotes, Dallas Stars, Colorado Avalanche, Florida Panthers, TB Lightning, Carolina Hurricanes and probably even the Ottowa Senators to the list of teams that wouldn't be around if not for Gretzky. Of course Canada would still have some of those teams...

 

[flysack]

As a hockey fan I'm totally psyched to get Gretzky.

Fun facts:

When he retired in 1999, they waived the waiting period and inducted him immediately into the HOF.

Upon retirement, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star records.

He is the only NHL player to total over 200 points in one season. Oh, and he did it four times.

He had over 100 points in 15 NHL seasons, 13 of them consecutively.

Gretzky's #99 has been retired by all teams in the National Hockey League. He is one of only two athletes to have earned this honor from a major professional sport, and the only one strictly for his play. Though I seriously doubt, even if the number wasn't retired, that any player would have the cojones to wear 99 ever again.

By the age of ten he had scored 378 goals and 120 assists in just 85 games with the Brantford Nadrofsky Steelers.

At 16, in his single year at the major junior level, Gretzky surpassed the OMJHL single-season scoring record, winning the OMJHL Rookie of the Year and Most Sportsmanlike awards.

He was selected to play for Canada at the 1978 World Junior Championships. The youngest player in the tournament, he finished as the top scorer, was voted to the All-Star team, and was named Best Forward.

In his first NHL season he was awarded the Hart Memorial Trophy as the League's Most Valuable Player - the first of eight in a row.

In his second season, Gretzky won the Art Ross (the first of seven consecutive) with a then-record 164 points, breaking both Bobby Orr's record for assists in a season (102) and Phil Esposito's record for points in a season (152).

He ended the 1981–82 season with records of 92 goals, 120 assists, for a total of 212 points in 80 games, becoming the first and only player in NHL history to break the 200–point mark. That year, Gretzky became the first hockey player and first Canadian to be named Associated Press Male Athlete of the Year. He was also named 1982 "Sportsman of the Year" by Sports Illustrated.

By the time he finished playing in Edmonton, he held or shared 49 NHL records, which in itself was a record, and the Oilers had won five Stanley Cups in seven years.

On his first appearance in Edmonton after being traded to the LA Kings—a game that was nationally televised in Canada—he received a four-minute standing ovation. The arena was sold out, and the attendance of 17,503 was the Oilers' biggest crowd ever to that date.

He accomplished what a certain soccer player couldn't: introduce a sport to California and have it succeed. There would be no Ducks or Sharks without Gretzky.

He won the Lady Byng Trophy (sportsmanship) four times.

One of my favorite stats: at the end of three different seasons, Gretzky was so far and away the scoring leader that you could have thrown out his goals and he still would have won the scoring title on assists alone. 82-83: 125 assists, Peter Stasky was second in scoring with 124 points (goals and assists added together); 85-86: 163 assists, Jari Kurri was second in the league with 135 points; 86-87: 121 assists, Kurri was second in scoring with 108 points. In 82-83 he would have tied on just assists (135, Kurri second in scoring with 135 points), and he came reasonably close in 90-91 (122 assists, Brett Hull was second in scoring with 131 points). That's like a baseball player having more RBIs than any other player had RBIs and runs combined. Crazy.

For all of these reasons, when I first saw the athlete category, I thought Gretzky was a surefire LOCK for Top 3 in the category. If he played basketball or baseball instead of hockey, he'd be a runaway #1 in category. Nobody dominated his sport like Gretzky dominated hockey. The numbers are mind-boggling, and when you consider how humble he was about it, how much of a pure sportsman and class act, it's astounding. Getting him this far down is a major steal. Again, his only knock is he plays a less popular sport than most. But worldwide, hockey is far more popular than football and rugby. It rivals baseball for second behind soccer/football. And every single hockey playing kid from Siberia to Tampa Bay knows Wayne Gretzky is the undisputed best there ever was.

 

[rodg12]

Can't believe Thorn got Gretzky where he did. Outstanding pick!!

 

[BobbyLayne]

Rules:

10. Athlete Better defined than "Sports figure." Let's limit the discussion to who are the greatest athletes in history from a global perspective.

The Great One is a great value pick. Seriously.If the criteria is statistical dominance, he's the man, without question.

From a global perspective...

Hockey?

Listen, I'm from a small village in the midwest where we played pond hockey.

But...I dunno about this being the clear #1.

I'm still thinking Pele.

I'm still thinking Olympians.

Regardless, great pick Thorn, congrats.

 

[ScottNorwood]

Just wanted to pop in and say that the important part of being a celebrity in my eyes is being well-known. HTH.

I'm known throughout the microphone

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Is is just me or is this thing taking forever?

 

[flysack]

Rules:

10. Athlete Better defined than "Sports figure." Let's limit the discussion to who are the greatest athletes in history from a global perspective.

I'm still thinking Olympians.

This is another unfortunate knock on Wayne - the Olympic rules were different back then. Imagine if he could play for TEAM CANADA like NHL players do today. He was an outstanding Junior Olympian though.