World's Greatest Draft (3 Viewers)

[thatguy]

I think I'm up, pick coming in a bit... It's getting to that point in the draft where I have a ton of names left and my decisions are becoming increasingly difficult.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Leader

Military

Businessman

Explorer/Adventurer

Rebel

Statesman

Mystery Detective (whether lawyer, cop, federal agent, or spy)

Writer

Damsel in Distress

Scientist

Villain

Athlete

Musician

Living Computer

Hero

Heroine

Everyman

Wildcard

Wildcard

Wildcard

this would be 20 rounds and, really, my only problem is that there so aren't enough villains (thankfully though most of the good villains fit in other categories as well)...

I'm a little unsure about some of the categories being super deep (scientist, athlete, musician, writer), but overall this should be pretty good...

 

[Mister CIA]

18.02 - Sir Francis Drake - Discoverer/Explorer

Link.

Sir Francis Drake was born around 1540 as the son of a puritan farmer and preacher. He taught himself the art of sailing as the navigator of a small merchant sail vessel. Later in the beginning of his career, he served as an officer aboard West African slave ships.

Sailing from the Caribbean Sea to the Gulf of Mexico in 1567 Drake and his cousin John Hawkins were attacked and defeated by a Spanish Armada. They lost all of their vessels, and barely left with their lives. From that time on Drake would have a deep hatred for Catholic Spaniards. In the years 1570 and 1571 Drake familiarized himself with the Caribbean territory, and made many friends amongst escaped African slaves. Soon Drake led battles against the Spanish with the help his African friends.

In 1572 Drake was equipped with 2 ships and 73 sailors by his cousin Hawkins, and his associates. Queen Elizabeth also commissioned Drake as a privateer, to sail for America. In 25 days Drake crossed the Atlantic and found himself in the Caribbean Sea. After an unsuccessful attack on the Spanish port Nombre de Dios (today’s Nicaragua), Drake started to make new plans on plundering a Spanish caravan transporting gold. From the beginning the entire escapade seemed to be another loss for Drake. However, with certain setbacks, the enterprise brought Drake success and fame. Bringing his plunder to queen Elizabeth, he was selected to be the head of an expedition that was to sail around the world. Drake was flattered with this appointment, and made new more extravagant and hazardous plans.

Late in 1577, Francis Drake left England with five ships, ostensibly on a trading expedition to the Nile. On reaching Africa, the true destination was revealed to be the Pacific Ocean via the Strait of Magellan, to the dismay of some of the accompanying gentlemen and sailors. Still in the eastern Atlantic, a Portuguese merchant ship and its pilot - who was to stay with Drake for 15 months - was captured, and the fleet crossed the Atlantic, via the Cape Verde Islands, to a Brazilian landfall.

Running down the Atlantic South American coast, storms, separations, dissension, and a fatal skirmish with natives marred the journey. Before leaving the Atlantic, Drake lightened the expedition by disposing of two unfit ships and one English gentleman, who was tried and executed for mutiny. After rallying his men and unifying his command with a remarkable speech, Drake renamed his flagship, previously the Pelican, the Golden Hind.

In September of 1578, the fleet, now three ships, sailed through the deadly Strait of Magellan with speed and ease, only to emerge into terrific Pacific storms. For two months the ships were in mortal danger, unable to sail clear of the weather or to stay clear of the coast. The ships were scattered, and the smallest, the Marigold, went down with all hands. The Elizabeth found herself back in the strait and turned tail for England, where she arrived safely but in disgrace. Meanwhile, the Golden Hind had been blown far to the south, where Drake discovered - perhaps - that there was open water below the South American continent.

The storms abated, and the Golden Hind was finally able to sail north along the Pacific South American coast, into the previously undisturbed private waters of King Philip of Spain. The first stop, for food and water, was at the (now) Chilean Island of Mocha, where the rebellious residents laid a nearly disastrous ambush, having mistaken the English for their Spanish oppressors.

After this bad beginning in the Pacific the tide turned, and for the next five and a half months Drake raided Spanish settlements at will, among them Valpariso, Lima and Arica, and easily took Spanish ships, including the rich treasure ship "Cacafuego," leaving panic, chaos, and a confused pursuit in his wake. During this time, he captured and released a number of Europeans, whose subsequent testimony survives. The plundering was remarkable for its restraint; neither the Spanish nor the natives were intentionally harmed, there was very little violence, and there were very few casualties. Drake's crew in the Pacific was of unknown number, with estimates ranging from around sixty to one hundred men.

After stopping to make repairs at an island, Cano, off the coast of Southern Mexico and after a final raid, on the nearby (now vanished) town of Guatulco, the Golden Hind, awash with booty, including perhaps twenty-six tons of silver, sailed out of Spanish waters in April of 1579. As she left the sight of all Spanish observers, and of the captured Portuguese pilot who had been set ashore, she was accompanied by a small captured ship, crewed by Drake's men, which was kept for an unknown time.

Sailing first westerly and then northerly, well off the shore of North America, the leaking Golden Hind reached a northernmost position variously reported as between 48 degrees and 42 degrees north latitude, a range which includes most of Washington, all of Oregon, and a sliver of California. There, somewhere in the region he named Nova Albion, in the strangely cold and windy June of 1579, Drake found a harbor - reportedly at 48, 44, 38 1/2, or 38 degrees. He stayed in this now lost harbor for over five weeks, repairing the Golden Hind and enjoying extensive and peaceful contact with the Indians. Before he left he set up a monument, in the form of an engraved metal plate, which has never been found.

After stopping briefly at some nearby islands to fill out his larder, Drake turned his back to America and sailed into the vast Pacific. The crossing was uneventful, and landfall was made in sixty eight days, at a location which, like the Lost Harbor, remains elusive.

The next months were spent puttering about in the Indonesian archipelago, making promising commercial contacts, local political alliances and trading for spices - and again entering the sight of witnesses. Difficulty in finding a route through the thousands of islands nearly ended the journey in January of 1580, when the Golden Hind ran hard onto a reef in apparent open water; but after several desperate days a change of wind brought salvation.

Continuing westward, the Golden Hind crossed the Indian Ocean without incident, rounded the Cape of Good Hope into the Atlantic, sailed up the coast of Africa, and arrived triumphantly in England in the fall of 1580, nearly three years and some 36,000 miles having passed beneath her keel.

Upon Drake’s return in 1580, Queen Elizabeth knighted him on the deck of the "Golden Hind", and made him the mayor of Plymouth. Queen Elizabeth had a good deal to be grateful for with Drake’s journey, as for each pound used to finance it, she earned 47.

Although Drake established fame for his bravery and courage, he wasn’t well liked by his contemporaries. Drake was; however, liked by Queen Elizabeth, and she placed him in command of a fleet of ships with which he inflicted a great deal of damage on the oversea Spanish Empire.

On the 28th of January 1596, 16 years after Drake was knighted, he began his last journey against the Spanish strongholds of the West Indies where after successfully accomplishing his objectives Drake passed away. As a farewell, Drake’s crew ignited two captured vessels, and while the cannon’s did solute him, the water of the Caribbean Sea had engulfed him.

The Queen was astounded by the tremendous quantity of silver, gold and jewels Drake had taken from the Spanish. Because she had personally invested 1,000 crowns in the venture, she received 47,000 crowns in return. This was enough money to pay off England’s foreign debt as well cover future expenses of the country for several years.

Queen Elizabeth allowed Drake to keep 10,000 crowns with which he purchased the large estate called Buckland Abbey north of Plymouth. Buckland Abbey today is a museum of the British National Trust and holds many of Drake’s possessions.

 

[timschochet]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

 

[Mister CIA]

I think I'm up, pick coming in a bit... It's getting to that point in the draft where I have a ton of names left and my decisions are becoming increasingly difficult.

Same here. I've got a few prominent names I cannot even consider due to roster grid-lock.

 

[thatguy]

I believe that sometime back in the 16th century, this man correctly predicted I would select him as my first Wild Card in this draft. Spooky. He really is THE perfect Wild Card - not particularly befitting of any particular category, yet a hugely important and widely known figure just the same. Since the publication of his book, it has rarely been out of print, and many credit him with correctly predicting world events, and still others live in fear that his next dreary prediction might come true. Whether or not his predictions have proved or are later proved correct, one cannot dismiss his impact on generations of people and popular culture the world over. Along with being a seer, Nostradamus was also known as a healer, and helped prominent physicians to curb the outbreak of plagues and other diseases during his lifetime.



Nostradamus - Wild Card

Michel de Nostredame (14 December or 21 December 1503[1] – 2 July 1566), usually Latinized to Nostradamus, was a French apothecary and reputed seer who published collections of prophecies that have since become famous worldwide. He is best known for his book Les Propheties (The Prophecies), the first edition of which appeared in 1555. Since the publication of this book, which has rarely been out of print since his death, Nostradamus has attracted an enthusiastic following who, along with the popular press, credits him with predicting many major world events.

By contrast, most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus's quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus's quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance.

Nevertheless, interest in the work of this prominent figure of the French Renaissance is still considerable, especially in popular culture, and the prophecies have in some cases been assimilated to the results of applying the alleged Bible Code, as well as to other purported prophetic works.



Works

In The Prophecies he compiled his collection of major, long-term predictions. The first installment was published in 1555. The second, with 289 further prophetic verses, was printed in 1557. The third edition, with three hundred new quatrains, was reportedly printed in 1558, but now only survives as part of the omnibus edition that was published after his death in 1568. This version contains one unrhymed and 941 rhymed quatrains, grouped into nine sets of 100 and one of 42, called "Centuries".

Given printing practices at the time (which included type-setting from dictation), no two editions turned out to be identical, and it is relatively rare to find even two copies that are exactly the same. Certainly there is no warrant for assuming – as would-be "code-breakers" are prone to do – that either the spellings or the punctuation of any edition are Nostradamus' originals.

The Almanacs. By far the most popular of his works, these were published annually from 1550 until his death. He often published two or three in a year, entitled either Almanachs (detailed predictions), Prognostications or Presages (more generalized predictions).

Nostradamus was not only a diviner, but a professional healer, too. It is known that he wrote at least two books on medical science. One was an alleged "translation" of Galen, and in his Traité des fardemens (basically a medical cookbook containing, once again, materials borrowed mainly from others), he included a description of the methods he used to treat the plague — none of which, not even the bloodletting, apparently worked. The same book also describes the preparation of cosmetics.

A manuscript normally known as the Orus Apollo also exists in the Lyon municipal library, where upwards of 2,000 original documents relating to Nostradamus are stored under the aegis of Michel Chomarat. It is a purported translation of an ancient Greek work on Egyptian hieroglyphs based on later Latin versions, all of them unfortunately ignorant of the true meanings of the ancient Egyptian script, which was not correctly deciphered until the advent of Champollion in the 19th century.

Since his death only the Prophecies have continued to be popular, but in this case they have been quite extraordinarily so. Over two hundred editions of them have appeared in that time, together with over 2000 commentaries. Their popularity seems to be partly due to the fact that their vagueness and lack of dating make it easy to quote them selectively after every major dramatic event and retrospectively claim them as "hits".



Popular culture

The prophecies retold and expanded by Nostradamus have figured largely in popular culture in the 20th and 21st centuries. As well as being the subject of hundreds of books (both fiction and nonfiction), Nostradamus's life has been depicted in several films and videos, and his life and writings continue to be a subject of media interest.

There have also been several well-known internet hoaxes, where quatrains in the style of Nostradamus have been circulated by e-mail as the real thing. The best-known examples concern the collapse of the World Trade Center in the attacks of September 11, 2001, which led both to hoaxes and to reinterpretations by enthusiasts of several quatrains as supposed prophecies.

The September 11, 2001 attacks on New York City led to immediate speculation as to whether Nostradamus had predicted the events. Nostradamus enthusiasts pointed to Quatrains VI.97 and I.87 as possible predictions.

 

[timschochet]

thatguy-

I can't say at the moment what my ranking of Nostradamus will be, because I will be comparing him to other people, but I can, I think, say this:

You're not going to like it.

 

[BobbyLayne]

18.05 Andy Dufresne - Johannes Kepler - Flex

Nice pick

Any chance you guys could move any talk of another draft to a different thread?

very :X

18.02 - Sir Francis Drake - Discoverer/Explorer

Link.

Terrific choice. I know, it's late in the draft in a very deep category. A judge might look at it and say 'no need trade routes, didn't discover much except Northern Cali (and sketchy where exactly they did make landfall)', but Elizabeth's favorite pirate accomplished something quite important. He sent a clear message to Spain and the rest of the world that henceforth England would be a power at sea.Evermore.

 

[thatguy]

thatguy-I can't say at the moment what my ranking of Nostradamus will be, because I will be comparing him to other people, but I can, I think, say this:You're not going to like it.

Well, I'll just have to live with that, Tim.

 

[The Real Hipster Doofus]

thatguy-I can't say at the moment what my ranking of Nostradamus will be, because I will be comparing him to other people, but I can, I think, say this:You're not going to like it.

Won't really matter too much when he kills in the popular voting.

 

[thatguy]

thatguy-I can't say at the moment what my ranking of Nostradamus will be, because I will be comparing him to other people, but I can, I think, say this:You're not going to like it.

Won't really matter too much when he kills in the popular voting.

Word up G. :X

 

[Fennis]

Any chance you guys could move any talk of another draft to a different thread?

Mind if we talk about my upcoming draft of FFA drafts?

 

[FUBAR]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

Taught in California = top 5 explorer in a world draft?

 

[BobbyLayne]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

I like the pick a lot as well, just maybe not as much as you.

Roald AmundsendNeil ArmstrongIbn BattutaGiovanni da Pian del CarpineChristopher ColumbusJames CookWilliam DampierSir Francis DrakeVasco De GamaYuri GargarinEdmund HillaryFerdinand MagellanFrancisco Pizarro Marco PoloZheng He

Top ten for sure IMO; def a great value for the 18th round.

 

[thatguy]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

Taught in California = top 5 explorer in a world draft?

Didn't you know? The world is California-centric.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Any chance you guys could move any talk of another draft to a different thread?

Mind if we talk about my upcoming draft of FFA drafts?

INout

 

[timschochet]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

Taught in California = top 5 explorer in a world draft?

Didn't you know? The world is California-centric.

California Uber Alles!

 

[larry_boy_44]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

I like the pick a lot as well, just maybe not as much as you.

Roald AmundsendNeil ArmstrongIbn BattutaGiovanni da Pian del CarpineChristopher ColumbusJames CookWilliam DampierSir Francis DrakeVasco De GamaYuri GargarinEdmund HillaryFerdinand MagellanFrancisco Pizarro Marco PoloZheng He

Top ten for sure IMO; def a great value for the 18th round.

how do you rank the first guy on the moon #2 and the first man in space #10?Space > Moonits because he isn't American isn't it?

 

[FUBAR]

My idea of what this draft would be is pseudo- real people, not video game characters. I know having Star Trek and Star Wars allowed would create minor problems there, but to me the fun of the draft would be selecting characters that are more real, if that makes sense.

Without spotlighting, to me, drafting James Kirk or even Captain Queeg is far more entertaining then drafting Spiderman or Doc Oc. Although, with recent movie history those particular characters have more a realism to them now.

I don't know if I can explain it right, or if everyone would agree with me. But that draft would be more fun, to me, if the draft pool had characters like Indiana Jones and Matlock instead of Jupiter or the guy from GTA III

whataminnut, so we're supposed to allow dudes with powers who lived in a galaxy far far away but not dudes with powers who live in New York City?

 

[BobbyLayne]

Metrocentric is the only way to be

None of those guys discovered Manhattan (aka Center of the Universe), so how important can they be?

 

[FUBAR]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

I like the pick a lot as well, just maybe not as much as you.

Roald AmundsendNeil ArmstrongIbn BattutaGiovanni da Pian del CarpineChristopher ColumbusJames CookWilliam DampierSir Francis DrakeVasco De GamaYuri GargarinEdmund HillaryFerdinand MagellanFrancisco Pizarro Marco PoloZheng He

Top ten for sure IMO; def a great value for the 18th round.

Where did Drake go? oh, right, the Strait of MAGELLAN.

 

[FUBAR]

Metrocentric is the only way to be

None of those guys discovered Manhattan (aka Center of the Universe), so how important can they be?

But have they discovered Uranus?

 

[BobbyLayne]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

I like the pick a lot as well, just maybe not as much as you.

Roald AmundsendNeil ArmstrongIbn BattutaGiovanni da Pian del CarpineChristopher ColumbusJames CookWilliam DampierSir Francis DrakeVasco De GamaYuri GargarinEdmund HillaryFerdinand MagellanFrancisco Pizarro Marco PoloZheng He

Top ten for sure IMO; def a great value for the 18th round.

how do you rank the first guy on the moon #2 and the first man in space #10?Space > Moonits because he isn't American isn't it?

wait for it...Listed alphabetically, Larry.(Zheng He I correctly used the first name, which is the surname in Chinese)

 

[larry_boy_44]

Sir Francis Drake is an amazing pick in this round. A legitimate top 5 explorer. In California, his exploits are taught to us around Third Grade.

I like the pick a lot as well, just maybe not as much as you.

Roald AmundsendNeil ArmstrongIbn BattutaGiovanni da Pian del CarpineChristopher ColumbusJames CookWilliam DampierSir Francis DrakeVasco De GamaYuri GargarinEdmund HillaryFerdinand MagellanFrancisco Pizarro Marco PoloZheng He

Top ten for sure IMO; def a great value for the 18th round.

how do you rank the first guy on the moon #2 and the first man in space #10?Space > Moonits because he isn't American isn't it?

wait for it...Listed alphabetically, Larry.(Zheng He I correctly used the first name, which is the surname in Chinese)

at least I think I'm not the only person who thought you were ranking them...

 

[timschochet]

This draft has been a whole lot of fun, but I cannot wait for the category rankings. That is going to be a blast.

 

[thatguy]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Not sure the criteria the judge will use, but I would think exploration of a new route or discovery of somewhere no white european had been before will rank high.

On that basis Columbus, Magellan and Polo seem like an obvious top 3, and BOTH Armstrong and Gagarin deserve consideration for a high slot.

I don't know after that...probably Cook, De Gama and Hillary...and the next big name might be Drake?



A lot of these categories it gets pretty foggy 4th through 17th.

 

[Thorn]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

I mean, any list that doesn't have Columbus first, well, you just know something's not right.

 

[timschochet]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

I mean, any list that doesn't have Columbus first, well, you just know something's not right.

Really?Before the G.A.D., did you know Jonas Salk was a better scientist than Albert Einstein?I'm prepared to laugh heartily when the rankings begin.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

I mean, any list that doesn't have Columbus first, well, you just know something's not right.

I think Columbus should be high, but I don't think he's a lock for #1...I mean, we have people arguing against Jesus, the Beatles, and others who are more locks at their spots than Columbus was... I mean, whoop-de-doo he re-discovered something... how amazing...

 

[Abrantes]

Really struggling with these last few categories, but as far as I can tell, no one's picked this dude yet, which seems like excellent value. Sorry for the limited write-up. I humbly acknowledge that this really isn't my area of expertise.

17.20 Isaiah Religious figure

Isaiah is the main figure in the Biblical Book of Isaiah, and is traditionally considered to be its author. He was an 8th-century BC Judean prophet who declared that all the world belonged to God and that God will destroy it. "The land will be completely laid waste and totally plundered. The LORD has spoken this word." (Isaiah 24:3). Isaiah therefore warns the people of the world to turn back to God.

A paramount shaper of the prophetic vision was Isaiah, who was active over an extraordinarily lengthy period of time: "The prophecies of Isaiah son of Amoz, who prophesied concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah "(Isaiah 1:1).

Isaiah was witness to one of the most turbulent periods in Jerusalem's history, from both the political and the religious standpoint. His status enabled him to take an active part in events, and in some cases to guide them. His relations with the senior m embers of the royal house, as described in the Bible, and the fact that he had free access to the palace, together with the complex linguistic style of his prophecies, suggest that he belonged to the Jerusalem aristocracy. This, though, did not prevent him from being an outspoken mouthpiece of the common people, who were being victimized by the rampant corruption of the ruling class: "What need have I of all your sacrifices? says the Lord... Put your evil doings away from my sight... Devote yourselves to justice;... Uphold the rights of the orphan; defend the cause of the widow"(1:11-17).

Isaiah was the most "political" of the prophets. In the face of Assyrian expansionism he counseled a passive political and military approach. He put his faith in divine salvation, which would certainly follow from a necessary change in the moral leadership and in the people's spiritual tenacity. Every "earthly" attempt to alter the course of events was foredoomed, since the mighty Assyria was no more than a "rod" in God's hands with which to punish the sins of Jerusalem: "Again the Lord spoke to me, thus: 'Because that people has spurned the gently flowing waters of Siloam assuredly, my Lord will bring up against them the mighty, massive waters of the Euphrates, the king of Assyria and all his multitude" (8:6-7). When the comprehensive religious reforms introduced by King Hezekiah seemed, at first, to justify the hopes held out for him by Isaiah, the prophet supported him in the difficult moments of the Assyrian siege: "Assuredly, thus said the Lord concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not enter this city; he shall not shoot an arrow at it, or advance upon it with a shield, or pile up a siege mound against us. He shall go back by the way he came, he shall not enter this city declares the Lord"(37:33-34).

However, Isaiah took an unwaveringly dim view of Hezekiah's attempts to forge alliances with Egypt and with the envoys of the Babylonian king Merodach-baladan, as a wedge against Assyrian expansionism. Such efforts, he said, attested to insufficient faith in the Lord. Isaiah is also considered the most universal of the prophets: "In the days to come, the Mount of the Lord's House shall stand firm above the mountains... And the many peoples shall go and shall say: Come, let us go up to the Mount of the Lord ... "(2:2-3). Christian theologists have drawn heavily on Isaiah's prophecies for exegetical purposes.

I'll be back later (likely tomorrow) for more and my other make-up pick.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

lolsorry, Tim, but the "unknown and uncharted" places that Gagarin and Armstrong traveled to are infinitely more impressive, intimidating, and downright scary than what Columbus, Magellen, and whoever Francis is referring to did... They still had oxygen, and water underneath their boats, and the sun and moon in the sky...

Gagarin had no sky left...

and Armstrong had a sky that, instead of the moon, featured the Earth itself...

 

[Thorn]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

I mean, any list that doesn't have Columbus first, well, you just know something's not right.

Really?Before the G.A.D., did you know Jonas Salk was a better scientist than Albert Einstein?I'm prepared to laugh heartily when the rankings begin.

Not that I am conceding anything, but I am confident in the FFA more than any particular judge. Hell, I was one if that gives you any idea.

 

[timschochet]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

lolsorry, Tim, but the "unknown and uncharted" places that Gagarin and Armstrong traveled to are infinitely more impressive, intimidating, and downright scary than what Columbus, Magellen, and whoever Francis is referring to did... They still had oxygen, and water underneath their boats, and the sun and moon in the sky...

Gagarin had no sky left...

and Armstrong had a sky that, instead of the moon, featured the Earth itself...

You missed my entire point.I was not making a comparison of what was being explored. I was comparing the manner in which it was explored. Gargarin and Armstrong were essentially hired hands, as compared to the others.

 

[Thorn]

I think you might actually be alone there Larry.

I mean, any list that doesn't have Columbus first, well, you just know something's not right.

I think Columbus should be high, but I don't think he's a lock for #1...

I mean, we have people arguing against Jesus, the Beatles, and others who are more locks at their spots than Columbus was... I mean, whoop-de-doo he re-discovered something... how amazing...

(blews out...waits)



ah, thanks for that.

 

[BobbyLayne]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

FWIW, I did not rank them higher than Columbus or Magellan, so not sure why you went there.Figured you would chime in with the technology argument. I don't quite follow; every one of these explorers had hundreds or thousands of people helping or supporting their mission. Zheng He had 28,000 in his fleet. Amundsend and Hillary had several hundred in their parties. In every case, they were one cog in the wheel. Leader = mighty big cog, but you can't get it done without everybody working together. Doesn't matter if you're sailing or climbing or lighting solid fuel rocket, they all require teamwork.

Anyway, my primary argument for them is they both went where no man had gone before; that qualifies, without apology or rationalization.

Drake I would rank below the other 8 just because he didn't go anywhere new. But it was huge from a pyschological and political standpoint.

 

[Mjolnirs]

I loathe the Yankees right now.

I'm right there with you. Or do you mean the baseball team? Well, ok them too.

 

[timschochet]

[Figured you would chime in with the technology argument. I don't quite follow; every one of these explorers had hundreds or thousands of people helping or supporting their mission. Zheng He had 28,000 in his fleet. Amundsend and Hillary had several hundred in their parties. In every case, they were one cog in the wheel. Leader = mighty big cog, but you can't get it done without everybody working together. Doesn't matter if you're sailing or climbing or lighting solid fuel rocket, they all require teamwork.

I wasn't talking about teamwork; I was talking about being in charge. With Armstrong and Gargarin, there was a Mission Control that was in charge of the mission, composed of a group of scientists back on Earth doing all of the monitering. They designed every aspect of the mission.Drake, like Columbus and Magellen, was in charge. There was no one to consult with and no one to answer to. Though both Drake and Magellan had to put down mutinies; their word, their decisions, were law. They had all authority and all responsibility. That's the difference, IMO.

 

[Abrantes]

Drake I would rank below the other 8 just because he didn't go anywhere new. But it was huge from a pyschological and political standpoint.

That's pretty much why I kept going back and forth in my own deliberations over Drake for the last few rounds. Regardless of how good of a seafarer Drake really was, I can't rank him too highly as a discoverer/explorer. Might feel like artificial limitations, but it seems reasonable to me.

 

[larry_boy_44]

[Figured you would chime in with the technology argument. I don't quite follow; every one of these explorers had hundreds or thousands of people helping or supporting their mission. Zheng He had 28,000 in his fleet. Amundsend and Hillary had several hundred in their parties. In every case, they were one cog in the wheel. Leader = mighty big cog, but you can't get it done without everybody working together. Doesn't matter if you're sailing or climbing or lighting solid fuel rocket, they all require teamwork.

I wasn't talking about teamwork; I was talking about being in charge. With Armstrong and Gargarin, there was a Mission Control that was in charge of the mission, composed of a group of scientists back on Earth doing all of the monitering. They designed every aspect of the mission.Drake, like Columbus and Magellen, was in charge. There was no one to consult with and no one to answer to. Though both Drake and Magellan had to put down mutinies; their word, their decisions, were law. They had all authority and all responsibility. That's the difference, IMO.

technically wasn't their word actually an extension of the word of the monarch who sanctioned their voyages...Thus, aren't you saying we should actually be giving credit to those monarchs instead of the explorers since the monarchs were the ones really in charge?The fact is that all of the explorers we are picking are just figureheads for their expeditions...What's more amazing/impressive:"discovering" Americasailing around the worldleaving the planetlanding on the moonthat's what we're really ranking in this category...

 

[FUBAR]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

lolsorry, Tim, but the "unknown and uncharted" places that Gagarin and Armstrong traveled to are infinitely more impressive, intimidating, and downright scary than what Columbus, Magellen, and whoever Francis is referring to did... They still had oxygen, and water underneath their boats, and the sun and moon in the sky...

Gagarin had no sky left...

and Armstrong had a sky that, instead of the moon, featured the Earth itself...

Sure we say that now, but you try to imagine sailing off the edge of the earth.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

This statement is not true. Royal patronage was a necessity for any explorer in that era. Columbus, Magellan and Drake were chosen, each from several qualified candidates. Drake's journey wasn't even his own idea - and the main objective wasn't trade, it was a twofold mission of authorized piracy and to annoy the King of Spain.I get your point about the requisite leadership qualities, but the category is Discoverer/Explorer, not Captaincy.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I would not rank Armstrong or Gargarin nearly as highly as you would, BL. Guys like Columbus, Magellan, and Drake were the leaders of their respective journeys- they conceived those journeys, planned them to the last detail, were ultimately responsible for the success or failure. All three men plunged themselves into the unknown and uncharted.

On the other hand, Armstrong and Gargarin were test pilots who happened to be superb at what they did. Every aspect of their great adventures was planned to the last detail by others; they were asked to operate technology that was created by others. And throughout their journeys, they had the continual help of those others. Neil and Yuri were chosen by others from many competent men; Chris, Ferdie, and Francis chose themselves.

lolsorry, Tim, but the "unknown and uncharted" places that Gagarin and Armstrong traveled to are infinitely more impressive, intimidating, and downright scary than what Columbus, Magellen, and whoever Francis is referring to did... They still had oxygen, and water underneath their boats, and the sun and moon in the sky...

Gagarin had no sky left...

and Armstrong had a sky that, instead of the moon, featured the Earth itself...

Sure we say that now, but you try to imagine sailing off the edge of the earth.

in a way, Gagarin actually DID do that... He didn't just risk doing it, he DID it, on purpose...Plus, it wasn't like there weren't people saying the earth was round before Columbus and Magellan...

 

[FUBAR]

[Figured you would chime in with the technology argument. I don't quite follow; every one of these explorers had hundreds or thousands of people helping or supporting their mission. Zheng He had 28,000 in his fleet. Amundsend and Hillary had several hundred in their parties. In every case, they were one cog in the wheel. Leader = mighty big cog, but you can't get it done without everybody working together. Doesn't matter if you're sailing or climbing or lighting solid fuel rocket, they all require teamwork.

I wasn't talking about teamwork; I was talking about being in charge. With Armstrong and Gargarin, there was a Mission Control that was in charge of the mission, composed of a group of scientists back on Earth doing all of the monitering. They designed every aspect of the mission.Drake, like Columbus and Magellen, was in charge. There was no one to consult with and no one to answer to. Though both Drake and Magellan had to put down mutinies; their word, their decisions, were law. They had all authority and all responsibility. That's the difference, IMO.

technically wasn't their word actually an extension of the word of the monarch who sanctioned their voyages...Thus, aren't you saying we should actually be giving credit to those monarchs instead of the explorers since the monarchs were the ones really in charge?The fact is that all of the explorers we are picking are just figureheads for their expeditions...What's more amazing/impressive:"discovering" Americasailing around the worldleaving the planetlanding on the moonthat's what we're really ranking in this category...

You really do like to ignore the point. Try considering each person's role. I love Armstrong and Glenn, but they tried out for their role, it was happening regardless, the only question was who would be the person. With Columbus and Magellan, it wasn't going to just yet. Do we give credit to Ham the Astrochimp?Think about it, are you actually trying to say the best discoverer was actually a chimp?

 

[Mario Kart]

Sure we say that now, but you try to imagine sailing off the edge of the earth.

I think this is a big misnomer. Maybe commoners "knew" the world was flat but sailors and others knew the world was round in shape. There was no fear of falling off the edge because the "more intelligent" folk knew the world was round.

 

[thatguy]

Tim, since you eloquently told me that my Nostradamus pick was garbage, I have to ask you, what is the Wild Card category for if not people like him? Is it merely a bucket for all the leftovers from the categories who missed the cut? I honestly believe Nostradamus is THE perfect fit for Wild Card, and nothing you will tell me is going to change my mind. Tell me, if you would be so kind, what is he lacking? Is if the fact that he didn't save lives? Didn't invent something brilliant? Didn't kill a ####ton of people? Didn't come up with a great mathematical theorem? Hello! He's a Wild Card. Who gives a #### about the importance of his accomplishments. The fact is he's a MONSTER figure in pop culture and has been since he was alive.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Actually, after reading Larry's posts, I'm starting to agree with timschochet.



We know these expeditions by their leaders, in every case, with the exception of the astronaut and cosmonaut.

Right? Columbus discovering the new world, Magellan circumventing the globe (even though he personally didn't make it), Marco Polo in the court of Kublai Khan, Amundsen leading parties to both poles.

But when we think of the first man on the moon, I know I think more about what it took to get there - Mercury, Gemini, the launch pad disaster, moon missions that orbited but did not land.

I still think the space guys are top ten, but maybe just outside the top five is more appropriate.

 

[the moops]

I have to ask you, what is the Wild Card category for if not people like him?

I think he should rate near the top of the WC category.

 

[thatguy]

I have to ask you, what is the Wild Card category for if not people like him?

I think he should rate near the top of the WC category.

Thanks, GB. Me too.