Would the Saints really take Mario Williams? (1 Viewer)

[Jason Wood]

they are to singletary, urlacher, ray lewis, any LB you can think of.

Like Bush, you should definitely believe the hype on this guy. I honestly can't think of one question mark - intangibles, athleticism, ferocious gameplay, the ability to play any LB position in any scheme, character - it's all there.

Hawk = Bush of LBs, an every 5 year can't miss kind of player.

this is why I wonder what the Saints would do if they dropped back to say 1.4 or 1.5. If D'Brick and Hawk are available at that slot (1.4-ish) then it becomes a real quandry. Is D'brick that much more valuable at that postion than Hawk? Especially given the current Saints roster?

I'd have a tough time knocking either pick. OT's have a higher success rate, and Brick would be the safer pick, but Hawk? Yeah, they could sure use a LB--or two.

Better to go a) D-Brick in the 1st and someone like Thomas Howard, D'Qwell Jackson, Abdul Hodge in the 2nd than

b)Hawk in the 1st and someone like Jon Scott or any other 2nd tier OT in the 2nd.

Not necessarily.

Should have added: In my opinion.

I happen to agree with you by the way, but that's predicated on my belief that D'Brick will be a fixture LT for some team for 8-10 years.

And with Jamaal Brown on the opposite side, McAllister returning from injury, and Brees (hopefully) improving the QB position, the Saints offense really starts to look pretty good.

Being an Eagles homer, I really liked the Mayberry signing last year. As an Eagle, he got hurt at times but he ALWAYS played if he was able, he really gutted it out for the Birds. If he is healthy this year, playing guard, the Saints have the chance of putting together a monster O-line. It's a shame they couldn't keep Bentley...D'Brick

Holland/Goodwin

Bentley

Mayberry

Brown

Would've been ridiculous.

 

[kbleck]

It is a smoke screen, NO will not draft Williams. I also dont see any of the top 6 teams making any trades to move up. The Saints also would not want to drop past the top 6 IMO so they will draft Brick.

With all this talk about "Cant Miss" I truely think that VY falls come draft day. VY is a possible miss IMO. Ane with that many "can't miss" players out there I think that there will not be any trades to move up unless someone low on the board wants one. The top 6-7 teams will be content to take what falls to them.

This is how I think it will go:

Houston - Bush

Saints - D'Brick

Tenn - Lienart

NYJ - Williams

GB - Hawk

SF - Davis

OAK - Ngata

Buffalo - Cutler

Detroit - who knows Millen will F' it up again.

Arizona - VY

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Houston - Bush

Saints - D'Brick

Tenn - Lienart

NYJ - Williams

GB - Hawk

SF - Davis

OAK - Ngata

Buffalo - Cutler

Detroit - who knows Millen will F' it up again.

Arizona - VY

I think you're pretty close here except that Buffalo will take Winston Justice (they seem sold on Craig Nall for some reason). I'd put Young to Oakland and Ngata to Arizona. Detroit takes Michael Huff. At least they should for their needs.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

so, a team with Tom Brady should look to upgrade with a a 1st round QB?

draft position becomes rather irrelevant once you enter the league and establish yourself. fact is that Charles Grant and Will Smith would be considered elite or soon to be elite DEs by most NFL talent evaluators. Mario Williams would have be to one of the best 2 or 3 at his position to provide any upgrade at all, and the difference still wouldn't be that great.

Out of curiousity, do you think Houston will take Reggie Bush even though they have Dominick Davis?

yes I think they will, but I'm not so sure that they should. I think they'd probably be wise to consider trading down if someone out there was willing to pay a ton for Bush. There are also a couple important differences:#1 Domanick Davis is no better than an average starting player at his position. I think there are easily 10-15 starting RBs better than him in the NFL. Reggie Bush appears to be the best RB prospect to come along since Tomlinson, so he could provide a significant upgrade. However, I also think they could use Bush as a receiver often in the same way that USC did. There are lots of ways they could take advantage of Bush while still giving Davis a decent number of touches/game.

#2 I think Charles Grant and Will Smith could both warrant top-10 consideration among NFL DEs. They could use all 3 DEs in a rotation to keep them fresh, but that just means they often have to leave one of their 3 best defensive players on the bench. They already had one of the best collections of defensive ends in the league, but their run defense was terrible and it got them nowhere. I think they'd be much wiser to upgrade the talent on the interior of the defensive line and at linebacker (and in the secondary too), to give the DEs they already have a chance to reach their full potential...rather than simply adding another player who will take away playing time from 2 of their most promising young players who they've already invested a lot in.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

i would flip the question around... if your scouts tell you this guy has a chance to be better than peppers & best DE since reggie white... don't you at least think about bringing him in, & sort out the part about recouping value by trading grant later?

Many scouts thought Courtney Brown was the best DE since Bruce Smith. We already know that Grant and Smith can play, and play very well. I see no reason to take a chance on a marginally better player who could also go bust when you already have two young studs at the same position. The Saints should definitely try to move down, and Williams shouldn't even be a consideration, IMO.

BTW,i might have started a ruckus with 3-4 talk... that was just speculation to think of a way hypothetically williams, grant & smith could be on field at same time...

i still think two issues that could bear on saints decision are worth thinking about...

yes, williams could be bust... but so could ferguson & hawk...

i think teams have to rely on scout, coaching & front office eval... if they are in unison in saying he is next reggie white... i don't think they hesitate to pull trigger because he might be bust... otherwise they would hesitate on all picks because everybody could be a bust...

so that is an important question... we don't know how high a grade williams carries for them... my earlier question wasn't so much how high you are on him... but hypothetically... IF you were CONVINCED he was similar prospect to reggie white with his upside... IOW, one of the top DE prospects ever (another factor would be would they think brick or hawk could be among top LT or LB prospects of all time?)... do you get him...

also, any thoughts on how high a pick charles grant could fetch?

if a mid-first rounder or PLUS... they could get a pretty good LB there... though surely second best OL justice will be gone by then after his lights out workout...

Agreed, and I suppose that's an option worth considering if they think Mario Williams is Julius Peppers/Reggie White-good. Grant would certainly still have plenty of trade value at some point, whether they moved him this year or next offseason.Without looking at the data, however, I get the impression that DEs in the first round of the draft have a very high bust-rate compared to most other positions. D'Brick and Hawk seem like safer choices to me, and even if Williams has the most upside of all 3, I wouldn't want to take on that extra risk given how solid my DEs already were.

 

[Kiddnets]

Jets have D Rob locked up for big money the next few years - no way they can part with him without taking a huge cap hit. He has shown flashes but is mostly not worth what they traded to get him - darn Badaway!

Jets can go best player - they signed 2 solid DL in FA so not a glaring need anymore. A Jones is a decent OT so they can grab a RT later in the draft. Biggest need IMO is QB - Penny is dead weight and Ramsey is cheap. If there is a franchise QB that Tangini grade high enough they will go for it. I'd hate to see them trade the farm for Leinart but could live with it if they are convinced. Would rather them trade dow a few slots, get another 2nd rder for someone drooling over Brick or Mario (one should be there at #4) and grab Cutler. Possible though that some team could leap frog them so Ngata or Winston would be a fine consolation prize later in the top 10.

 

[saintfool]

my belief is if the saints HAVE to pick at 1.2 then it's d'brick. if they can drop down to 1.4-5 range then it's hawk.

if they have to pick elsewhere in the draft then who the hell knows what they do. everyone's draft is pretty much screwed if that happens...

 

[trollmonger]

I haven't read the entire thread so maybe it's already been said but...

It wasn't that long ago that the Saints drafted McAllister in the first not that long after giving up the entire draft for Ricky.

I don't understand them taking Mario either but there is a precedent.

 

[Jason Wood]

Kiper's just updated mock has the Saints taking Williams, and he contends they won't trade down below 4 to the Jets b/c they'll want to be sure to get Williams either way.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Kiper's just updated mock has the Saints taking Williams, and he contends they won't trade down below 4 to the Jets b/c they'll want to be sure to get Williams either way.

f'in Saints

 

[Z-Dog]

Jets have D Rob locked up for big money the next few years - no way they can part with him without taking a huge cap hit. He has shown flashes but is mostly not worth what they traded to get him - darn Badaway!

Jets can go best player - they signed 2 solid DL in FA so not a glaring need anymore. A Jones is a decent OT so they can grab a RT later in the draft. Biggest need IMO is QB - Penny is dead weight and Ramsey is cheap. If there is a franchise QB that Tangini grade high enough they will go for it. I'd hate to see them trade the farm for Leinart but could live with it if they are convinced. Would rather them trade dow a few slots, get another 2nd rder for someone drooling over Brick or Mario (one should be there at #4) and grab Cutler. Possible though that some team could leap frog them so Ngata or Winston would be a fine consolation prize later in the top 10.

1. The Jets can cut Robertson next year - his contract had $13 million in bonus money and expires in 2009, which means that the cap hit isn't so enormous after next year. That said, you can't blame Bradway - lots of teams wanted this guy, who was seen as far and away the best DT in what was supposed to be a historic DT draft. Interesting that only Kevin Williams has panned out so far.2. The Jets lost their best DE and brought in an old guy and a backup, neither of whom rushes the passer. If Williams is there at 1.04, he'll be wearing green.

3. I agree with you on the O-line

4. QB is a need, but lots of rebuilding teams have done worse than Pennington (a franchise QB when healthy), Ramsey (a 1st-rounder with starting experience who may just need a second chance), and Bollinger (a 6th-rounder who earned a lot of respect an demonstrated more ability than anyone thought he had). I don't see the Jets trading up. I see them possibly trading down for Cutler, or drafting VY at 1.04 if Mario isn't available.

 

[cracKer]

3-4 defensive ends and cover two cornerbacks are similar...much easier to find around the league (not a round one pick, let alone top 5)

the other thing that they have in common is that Williams will be playing neither position.

 

[Biabreakable]

1. Will Smith is a good player but Williams will possibly even probobly be better than him.

2. Williams or Smith could be used as a UT in a 4-3 in order to get more reps out of all 3 of these DEs as well as keeping them fresh at times in a rotation.

3. I think Williams has more potential to be a lynch pin game changing player than the OTs do. Although the Tackles are very good.

4. A DE like Williams does not come along very often and a truly dominant DE (which he could be as he is the best prospect since Peppers) I think is harder to find than a offensive tackle and even a Qb.

I agree with the logic of team need being greater for a Tackle than it is for a DE for the saints but for these reasons above I can understand why the Saints would take Williams anyways.

I could see the Saints trading down if they recieve a good enough offer though. I see a team possibly being more likely to trade up for Williams than the other players available for the same reasons I stated above.

 

[Reaper]

Jets have D Rob locked up for big money the next few years - no way they can part with him without taking a huge cap hit.  He has shown flashes but is mostly not worth what they traded to get him - darn Badaway!

Jets can go best player - they signed 2 solid DL in FA so not a glaring need anymore.  A Jones is a decent OT so they can grab a RT later in the draft.  Biggest need IMO is QB - Penny is dead weight and Ramsey is cheap.  If there is a franchise QB that Tangini grade high enough they will go for it.  I'd hate to see them trade the farm for Leinart but could live with it if they are convinced.  Would rather them trade dow a few slots, get another 2nd rder for someone drooling over Brick or Mario (one should be there at #4) and grab Cutler.  Possible though that some team could leap frog them so Ngata or Winston would be a fine consolation prize later in the top 10.

1. The Jets can cut Robertson next year - his contract had $13 million in bonus money and expires in 2009, which means that the cap hit isn't so enormous after next year. That said, you can't blame Bradway - lots of teams wanted this guy, who was seen as far and away the best DT in what was supposed to be a historic DT draft. Interesting that only Kevin Williams has panned out so far.

Jets are also way under the cap and can use that money to pay off more of his guaranteed money now.... Sounds like to methat unless Robertson has an amazing year he'll be gone.... Even with an amazing year, he may just fit in better somewhere else. Damn Badway.

 

[jchap31]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02. Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29. BOOK IT!

 

[SproutDaddy]

Or, they could be trying to drive up the value of every player in consideration for that possible trade. Cutler is awesome. Young is amazing. Leinart is a sure thing franchise QB. D'Brick is Walter Jones and Mario is Julius Peppers. Anybody want one?

I honestly think Brick is "their guy", with Hawk #2. But there is another true franchise player out there in Williams. To get the best possible deal for #2, they need to convince teams coveting any of the top 5 guys that they are in play for the saints #2 pick.

As a Saint's fan, I hope this is how it happens!

 

[motor guy]

Kiper's just updated mock has the Saints taking Williams, and he contends they won't trade down below 4 to the Jets b/c they'll want to be sure to get Williams either way.

f'in Saints

The new regime in New Orleans has proved to be pretty shrewd thus far, playing everything close to the vest. As an example, no one had any idea the Saints were after Brees until the very last minute -- the majority of speculation involved Minnesota/Miami.I think this talk about Super Mario is just radar-jamming, not to mention further evidence of Payton's cleverness (thanks, tuna).

 

[hobbes4]

Did Clayton say the Jet are more interested in leaping up to take D'Brick than Leinert (at no. 2) on Mike and Mike?

I heard the pansy Mike whining he wouldnt be able to profess his man love for Leinert if the 'professor' was correct. Might force the Saints to stay at 2 and grab who they want instead of moving out the spot...

 

[Jason Wood]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02. Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29. BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

 

[TME]

2. Williams or Smith could be used as a UT in a 4-3 in order to get more reps out of all 3 of these DEs as well as keeping them fresh at times in a rotation.

I agree with a lot of what you said. Williams is a rare DE. But, as to the point above, I think Grant would have the best shot at playing the under tackle position in a 4-3. Williams is a (very) tall, stretched out 295 and an overall ideal DE size DE. You would have to put him at DE (assuming he is/will be as good as touted).Smith is incredibly athletic, and could almost play from the stand up at OLB at least for definitive pass rush situation...at least better there than at UT.

If you wanted to put them all in a down stance on the line, I think you could push Grant inside.

Also, as for the Saints drafting a DE. Keep in mind that they had Howard and Grant when they drafted Smith. Granted, Smith was a mid-first, but he fell to them unexpectedly and took him as BPA. So, even though they still have two solid DEs, if Williams is BPA and they cannot move down, I think they will not hesitate to pick him.

They can pick up a good OT or LB at the top of the 2nd.

 

[Reaper]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

The Chargers drafted Eli Manning #1 overall.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

The Chargers drafted Eli Manning.

I was waiting for that. Change "drafted" to "had the Giants draft" and then re-read.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

The Chargers drafted Eli Manning.

I was waiting for that. Change "drafted" to "had the Giants draft" and then re-read.

did they really "have them draft" Rivers? It seems logical, but I don't remember ever seeing that confirmed anywhere.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

To clarify : I think Pennington still has some potential and I think the Jets agree. I'm not ready to close the book on him - hence the Brees comparison.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking.  How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

The Chargers drafted Eli Manning.

I was waiting for that. Change "drafted" to "had the Giants draft" and then re-read.

did they really "have them draft" Rivers? It seems logical, but I don't remember ever seeing that confirmed anywhere.

That trade was so widely known, I have no doubt that the Chargers essentially made that pick at #4. The trade was announced so soon thereafter that there's no way the Giants drafted Rivers for themselves, then completed the deal within a span of minutes. I'm sure the deal was contingent on New York taking Rivers at #4, and only the last details were being worked out on Draft Day.

 

[massraider]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

I was under the impression that Penny re-did his deal.

 

[Reaper]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

I believe the Jets kept Chad in order to split the remaining money owed and it's not that big of a hit If/When they need to let him go.... Last I read the Jets owed Chad about 12 million - Possibly down to around 6 million left for next year - They didn't want to eat all 12 this year. The Jets also have cap space left and knowing that they are rebuilding they could pay even more of Chad's Guaranteed bonus This year softening the blow for next..... It's not like there's some 50 Million dollar thing over their heads like in your example.

I'm not a cap expert and I don't know the minute details of Chad's deal but, I do know it's nothing that would hinder them from picking the best player on their board.

It ALL comes down to how they view these 3 QB's - And Frankly, I can't get a grip on how too many people really feel about these 3 QB's....... It's the question of the draft.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

I was under the impression that Penny re-did his deal.

He restructured to $3 million guaranteed this year, with up to $9 million possible if he reaches certain incentives. From what I understand, he's not going to be easy to cut for a while because of the amount of money distributed in bonuses... factor in whatever Ramsey makes, and then a 7 year $50 million contract for Leinart, and that's a lot invested in one position for a team with a lot of needs.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

Jets trade the 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints for the 1.02.  Jets take Leinart and the Saints pick up A.J. Hawk OLB at the 4-spot (who they really coveted all along) and either O-line  (Mangold at Center to make up for Bentley is my choice) or another Defensive Player (We do need a run stuffing DT or a CB) with the 1.29.  BOOK IT!

For what it's worth John Clayton said the Jets aren't going to move up to 2 for Leinart after his Pro Day. Personally, I think that indicates the Jets very much WOULD like to land Leinart and are planting misdirection into Clayton's ear and he's spewing it hook, line and sinker.

I can't see it. The Jets would be committing a ton of money to the QB spot - I think they take Ferguson or Williams and worry about QB down the road, once they can lose Pennington without taking a monster cap hit. Just my 2 cents.

I don't get the "Commiting a ton of Money" line of reasoning... Bottom line, if a team needs a franchise QB and their draft board has that player as the top player available on their list, they take him... PERIOD. It's ALL about how they feel about these 3 QB's and little to do with money.

That said - I can't see them Moving UP and using another pick to get a QB - they need bodies - The cap situation is fine.

I agree with your logic on QBs, but if you're already in for $50 million to a QB, do you get another one with a top 3 pick, who's going to command a huge salary, hypothetically? I mean, if you have a guy who can play the positon who's not the long-term future, but he's costing you $50 million and you can't cut him because of the cap hit, do you turn around and draft a QB #1 and put another $50 million towards the cause immediately? Or do you draft a mega-stud at another important position, let the guy who you're already paying get the job done for a year or two until you can cut him, and if you haven't managed to draft or acquire a solid QB by then - THEN draft one?I think Chargers fans might disagree with your line of thinking. How much better off would they be if they'd drafted DeAngelo Hall, Roy Williams, Dunta Robinson, or Lee Evans instead of Rivers with that pick?

I believe the Jets kept Chad in order to split the remaining money owed and it's not that big of a hit If/When they need to let him go.... Last I read the Jets owed Chad about 12 million - Possibly down to around 6 million left for next year - They didn't want to eat all 12 this year. The Jets also have cap space left and knowing that they are rebuilding they could pay even more of Chad's Guaranteed bonus This year softening the blow for next..... It's not like there's some 50 Million dollar thing over their heads like in your example.

I'm not a cap expert and I don't know the minute details of Chad's deal but, I do know it's nothing that would hinder them from picking the best player on their board.

It ALL comes down to how they view these 3 QB's - And Frankly, I can't get a grip on how too many people really feel about these 3 QB's....... It's the question of the draft.

I hear you. If I were the Jets, I'd draft Mario Williams, Marcus McNeill, and Nick Mangold, grab a RB at the top of round 3 with some potneital like Harrison or Calhoun, and then draft a QB in the first round next year. They'd be competitive for the division again in 2 seasons.

 

[Reaper]

Very Interesting Take from Kiper... If it pans out this way, I hope the Jets can find a trading partner and move down.

Q)A lot of people, including yourself, have the Jets picking D’Brickashaw Ferguson with the fourth pick. However, you have said he’s not a great run blocker. What is the problem with “The Brick’s” run-blocking?

Mel Kiper: I think his technique needs a little work. He needs to utilize his strength better. I think it’s one of those things were he will always be more of a pass blocker, than a run blocker. But if he can be adequate as a run blocker, which I think he can be, he has a chance to be an outstanding player in the NFL. He has incredibly long arms, outstanding feet. The kid is a protypical left tackle from a pass blocking standpoint. He’s not a dominant run blocker. At this point, he’s not even an above average run blocker.

Q)Some mock drafts have North Carolina State defensive end Mario Williams going four to the Jets. Don’t you think it would be a waste to play Williams in a 3-4? Isn’t he better suited to play a Julius Peppers-type role in a 4-3?

Kiper: I would not draft Mario Williams for a 3-4. Plus he will likely be gone to New Orleans at two after the Drew Brees signing. He’s not going to be there at four. The only way he was going to be there at four was if New Orleans took (Matt) Leinart, and then Tennessee took (Vince) Young, and then the Jets could get Ferguson or Williams. But that all went up in smoke when Brees signed with New Orleans. That threw the top of the first round out of kilter.

 

[Monarch]

they are to singletary, urlacher, ray lewis, any LB you can think of.

Like Bush, you should definitely believe the hype on this guy. I honestly can't think of one question mark - intangibles, athleticism, ferocious gameplay, the ability to play any LB position in any scheme, character - it's all there.

Hawk = Bush of LBs, an every 5 year can't miss kind of player.

this is why I wonder what the Saints would do if they dropped back to say 1.4 or 1.5. If D'Brick and Hawk are available at that slot (1.4-ish) then it becomes a real quandry. Is D'brick that much more valuable at that postion than Hawk? Especially given the current Saints roster?

I'd have a tough time knocking either pick. OT's have a higher success rate, and Brick would be the safer pick, but Hawk? Yeah, they could sure use a LB--or two.

Better to go a) D-Brick in the 1st and someone like Thomas Howard, D'Qwell Jackson, Abdul Hodge in the 2nd than

b)Hawk in the 1st and someone like Jon Scott or any other 2nd tier OT in the 2nd.

Not necessarily.

Should have added: In my opinion.

I happen to agree with you by the way, but that's predicated on my belief that D'Brick will be a fixture LT for some team for 8-10 years.

And with Jamaal Brown on the opposite side, McAllister returning from injury, and Brees (hopefully) improving the QB position, the Saints offense really starts to look pretty good.

Being an Eagles homer, I really liked the Mayberry signing last year. As an Eagle, he got hurt at times but he ALWAYS played if he was able, he really gutted it out for the Birds. If he is healthy this year, playing guard, the Saints have the chance of putting together a monster O-line. It's a shame they couldn't keep Bentley...D'Brick

Holland/Goodwin

Bentley

Mayberry

Brown

Would've been ridiculous.

The Saints could probably get a solid center in the 2nd round. I am not sure ANY center is worth the money Bentley was paid by cleveland. The Saints were better served to spend the money on a QB. They are playing this draft thing right. You will hear them bring in Leinart for a visit as well as any other player they think other teams covet. They are moving down. I think they jump if the Jets offer their two #1s. Do they turn down that deal when they know they lose nothing?

 

[Z-Dog]

If the Jets offered 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints, I suspect the Saints would take it, even though it's technically not such a great deal for the Saints based on value. However, I don't think the Jets value Leinart that highly, so I don't think the deal will be on the table.

 

[saintfool]

If the Jets offered 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints, I suspect the Saints would take it, even though it's technically not such a great deal for the Saints based on value. However, I don't think the Jets value Leinart that highly, so I don't think the deal will be on the table.

According to my friends in Nashville, with the recent McNair conflict, the Titans are looking more and more likely to grab Leinart at 1.3.

 

[Reaper]

If the Jets offered 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints, I suspect the Saints would take it, even though it's technically not such a great deal for the Saints based on value. However, I don't think the Jets value Leinart that highly, so I don't think the deal will be on the table.

According to my friends in Nashville, with the recent McNair conflict, the Titans are looking more and more likely to grab Leinart at 1.3.

Just a blurb from PFW...

The Titans worked out Matt Leinart on Monday but, according to one source in Tennessee, another quarterback has surged to the pinnacle of their draft board.

With warnings not to underestimate the winning background and organizational ties to the coaching staff working in Leinart’s favor — Jeff Fisher is a USC alumnus and offensive coordinator Norm Chow coached Leinart to a national championship and Heisman Trophy season with the Trojans — the Titans believe Texas junior QB Vince Young’s upside may be too great to measure, or resist.

 

[cstu]

If the Jets offered 1.04 and 1.29 to the Saints, I suspect the Saints would take it, even though it's technically not such a great deal for the Saints based on value. However, I don't think the Jets value Leinart that highly, so I don't think the deal will be on the table.

According to my friends in Nashville, with the recent McNair conflict, the Titans are looking more and more likely to grab Leinart at 1.3.

Just a blurb from PFW...

The Titans worked out Matt Leinart on Monday but, according to one source in Tennessee, another quarterback has surged to the pinnacle of their draft board.

With warnings not to underestimate the winning background and organizational ties to the coaching staff working in Leinart’s favor — Jeff Fisher is a USC alumnus and offensive coordinator Norm Chow coached Leinart to a national championship and Heisman Trophy season with the Trojans — the Titans believe Texas junior QB Vince Young’s upside may be too great to measure, or resist.

Misdirection from the Titans to make sure that Leinart is there when they pick. They want the Jets to think that Leinart will drop to #4 so they don't have to trade up with the Saints.

 

[Sabertooth]

Ultimately they would be best served by trading down a few spots, but are there any takers?

I bet the jets would happily give up 1.29 and 3.04 to land Leinart. Im not sure that the saints would want to trade down farther than 4 if they want to be assured of landing Ferguson or Hawk.

You think the Jets might trade up and take Williams? Let's say they move up and take Leinart - I doubt the Titans would take Williams - their DL is the strength of their team right now, IMO. If NO moves down to #4 and takes Ferguson, GB is unlikely to draft Williams, as the have KGB and Kampman on the ends. Could Mario fall all the way to SF at #6? I just can't see it.

I don't think Mario Williams gets by Green Bay. KGB shouldn't be an everydown DE anyway. They could play Williams and Kampman at DE on run downs...then move Kampman inside on passing downs and bring in KGB.

You think? I seem to be alone in thinking Green Bay may hop on Ngata at #5 - everyone else seems to project Hawk. I haven't seen a Williams-to-GB projection, but I kind of agree on KGB, so that's intriguing as well.

Wasn't Williams himself quoted as saying he thought he'd be a Packer? I am sure I read that back at the combine.

 

[Sabertooth]

BTW, how much better really is Hawk over Greenway. They played in the same conference. The should be easy to measure against each other. I live in SEC country and didnt watch much IOWA ball.. Seems to me taking Hawk top 5 is scary unless the comparisons are to Singletary.

they are to singletary, urlacher, ray lewis, any LB you can think of.Like Bush, you should definitely believe the hype on this guy. I honestly can't think of one question mark - intangibles, athleticism, ferocious gameplay, the ability to play any LB position in any scheme, character - it's all there.

Hawk = Bush of LBs, an every 5 year can't miss kind of player.

This makes me sleep better at night. Bloom is the smartest guy on here IMO and is he says Hawk for Green Bay, Hawk it is. The funny thing is the Hawk is the worst case scenario guy (other than a trade back). Mario or Hawk would be just dandy to me.

 

[Sabertooth]

Great thread guys. You's guys do all the work, and I just get to read the discussion.

 

[Z-Dog]

Link

With the Saints trading Gandy, it sure looks like they will take Ferguson as LT, and the Mario Williams talk was just that.

 

[Sidewinder]

Link

With the Saints trading Gandy, it sure looks like they will take Ferguson as LT, and the Mario Williams talk was just that.

Moving Jamaal Brown to LT according to Sean.

 

[cstu]

Link

With the Saints trading Gandy, it sure looks like they will take Ferguson as LT, and the Mario Williams talk was just that.

Moving Jamaal Brown to LT according to Sean.

Hmm, I know there was talk before last year's draft that Brown could develop into a LT but I thought they would keep him at RT because his run blocking is much better than his pass blocking.

 

[massraider]

Link

With the Saints trading Gandy, it sure looks like they will take Ferguson as LT, and the Mario Williams talk was just that.

Moving Jamaal Brown to LT according to Sean.

Hmm, I know there was talk before last year's draft that Brown could develop into a LT but I thought they would keep him at RT because his run blocking is much better than his pass blocking.

Yeah, I wouldn't hold Payton to that. I think coaches always talk about the guys they have, rather than the ones they don't.If you think about it, it's really what he should say. Because with the team, as it stands now, he's probably their best bet at LT.

I think this move makes it more likely that they go with Brick, and Payton's comments don't really affect that opinion in any way.

 

[saintfool]

Link

With the Saints trading Gandy, it sure looks like they will take Ferguson as LT, and the Mario Williams talk was just that.

Moving Jamaal Brown to LT according to Sean.

i didn't see in the blurb where Payton says that. it doesn't make much sense though, especially when they have someone like d'brick staring them in the face. i like this trade alot. gandy was making too much money, too old and less than effective. prior to his season-ending injury in the preseason, stinchcomb was expected to unseat him. maybe stinchcomb's recovery is further along than expected?

scott might be an underachiever but he's a solid acquisition for a need position. bullocks is entering his second year, bellamy is coming back from injury and is getting older, and smith can only do so much back there. scott adds depth, if nothing else, to a position that seems to require a lot of it. perhaps smith will shift over to CB as was discussed last year? stoutmire, bellamy, scott, bullocks and smith create a bit of a logjam.

it looks more and more like d'brick is becoming a saint...

 

[Sidewinder]

i didn't see in the blurb where Payton says that. ...

Wasn't in the "blurb", was live on NFL Network...