Yahoo! Article: Broncos/Lelie (1 Viewer)

[BusMan]

From Yahoo! Sports:

Life without Lelie leaves big questions in Denver

By ARNIE STAPLETON, AP Sports Writer

August 24, 2006

DENVER (AP) -- Now that recalcitrant receiver Ashley Lelie is no longer their problem, the Denver Broncos will spend the next several months answering two key questions:

-- Are they better without him?

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-- Are they better off without him?

"It's tough to know right now," Denver defensive end Courtney Brown said. "Time will tell us and him."

The NFL's leader in yards per catch the last two seasons could have provided the Broncos with a high-octane trio by teaming with former Pro Bowl receivers Rod Smith and Javon Walker.

Lelie wanted nothing to do with such an arrangement and skipped all the Broncos' offseason workouts, piling up hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and lost bonus money rather than report to a team he felt misused his talents and never gave him the chance to be a featured pass-catcher.

In a three-way trade with Atlanta and Washington that sent Lelie to the Falcons and running back T.J. Duckett to the Redskins, the Broncos got the equivalent value of a 2007 third-round draft pick, based on a points system used by NFL teams.

The arrangement with the Redskins opens the door for multiple alternatives involving the teams' draft picks -- they could swap picks in the first round, for example -- and the exact compensation won't be determined until next offseason.

The impact of Lelie's departure should be felt much, much sooner, especially if Walker's return from a severe knee injury that cost him almost all of last season doesn't go as planned or if the 36-year-old Smith finally starts to show his age in his 12th NFL season.

Because behind those two starters are a motley crew of largely unknown or unproven players:

-- Darius Watts, whose penchant for dropped passes often outshines his sensational skills.

-- David Kircus, who was cut four times by the Detroit Lions and spent the offseason making sandwiches at a Subway shop for $15 an hour.

-- Rookies Brandon Marshall and Domenik Hixon, both of whom are injured.

-- Charlie Adams, traded to Dallas last week only to return to Denver when the Cowboys said he failed his physical.

-- David Terrell, a former first-round draft pick who played in one game last year and had no catches.

-- Todd Devoe, who caught nine passes last season.

-- And Brian Clark, an undrafted free agent.

The Broncos' brass didn't want to discuss Lelie's departure Wednesday. General manager Ted Sundquist didn't return a message and coach Mike Shanahan said he'll address the situation at a later time.

"Once it's finished and once the papers are signed, I'll be more than happy to answer any questions," Shanahan said after practice.

Aside from a running tally of daily $14,000 fines amassed by the AWOL receiver that some teammates kept in the locker room, Lelie's name was hardly mentioned by the players during training camp.

"You wanted something to happen for him. You don't want guys to sit in football limbo," fullback Kyle Johnson said. "He's doing all right. The Denver Broncos are going to maximize the situation as best they can, as they historically do."

Lelie is going to Atlanta as the No. 3 receiver, same as he was in Denver, but it appears he'll have an easier time unseating Michael Jenkins or Roddy White than he would have of leapfrogging Smith and Walker.

So, who will be better off, Lelie for getting his wish, or the Broncos, for granting it?

"Let's be honest. If a player has a certain amount of leverage and a franchise has a certain amount of leverage, the franchise has superior leverage in the situation," Johnson said. "He did get something that he wanted. He got a change of scenery. To expect to miss an entire camp and come in as a No. 1 or No. 2 receiver on any franchise in the NFL is a large order.

"What he got is a chance to have a good year somewhere else as a No. 3. He could have done that here, but he chose to go somewhere else. You hope it works out well for the Denver Broncos and Ashley Lelie."

Updated on Thursday, Aug 24, 2006 4:18 am EDT

Sounds like someone is misunderestimating the Broncos WR depth. Although Walker's knee plus Smith's age and Watt's hands grouped with Marshall's rookie-ness tacked on to Kircus' sandwich artistry can do that to you.

 

[Z-Dog]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

 

[simmonjm]

From Yahoo! Sports:

Life without Lelie leaves big questions in Denver

By ARNIE STAPLETON, AP Sports Writer

August 24, 2006

DENVER (AP) -- Now that recalcitrant receiver Ashley Lelie is no longer their problem, the Denver Broncos will spend the next several months answering two key questions:

-- Are they better without him?

ADVERTISEMENT

-- Are they better off without him?

"It's tough to know right now," Denver defensive end Courtney Brown said. "Time will tell us and him."

The NFL's leader in yards per catch the last two seasons could have provided the Broncos with a high-octane trio by teaming with former Pro Bowl receivers Rod Smith and Javon Walker.

Lelie wanted nothing to do with such an arrangement and skipped all the Broncos' offseason workouts, piling up hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines and lost bonus money rather than report to a team he felt misused his talents and never gave him the chance to be a featured pass-catcher.

In a three-way trade with Atlanta and Washington that sent Lelie to the Falcons and running back T.J. Duckett to the Redskins, the Broncos got the equivalent value of a 2007 third-round draft pick, based on a points system used by NFL teams.

The arrangement with the Redskins opens the door for multiple alternatives involving the teams' draft picks -- they could swap picks in the first round, for example -- and the exact compensation won't be determined until next offseason.

The impact of Lelie's departure should be felt much, much sooner, especially if Walker's return from a severe knee injury that cost him almost all of last season doesn't go as planned or if the 36-year-old Smith finally starts to show his age in his 12th NFL season.

Because behind those two starters are a motley crew of largely unknown or unproven players:

-- Darius Watts, whose penchant for dropped passes often outshines his sensational skills.

-- David Kircus, who was cut four times by the Detroit Lions and spent the offseason making sandwiches at a Subway shop for $15 an hour.

-- Rookies Brandon Marshall and Domenik Hixon, both of whom are injured.

-- Charlie Adams, traded to Dallas last week only to return to Denver when the Cowboys said he failed his physical.

-- David Terrell, a former first-round draft pick who played in one game last year and had no catches.

-- Todd Devoe, who caught nine passes last season.

-- And Brian Clark, an undrafted free agent.

The Broncos' brass didn't want to discuss Lelie's departure Wednesday. General manager Ted Sundquist didn't return a message and coach Mike Shanahan said he'll address the situation at a later time.

"Once it's finished and once the papers are signed, I'll be more than happy to answer any questions," Shanahan said after practice.

Aside from a running tally of daily $14,000 fines amassed by the AWOL receiver that some teammates kept in the locker room, Lelie's name was hardly mentioned by the players during training camp.

"You wanted something to happen for him. You don't want guys to sit in football limbo," fullback Kyle Johnson said. "He's doing all right. The Denver Broncos are going to maximize the situation as best they can, as they historically do."

Lelie is going to Atlanta as the No. 3 receiver, same as he was in Denver, but it appears he'll have an easier time unseating Michael Jenkins or Roddy White than he would have of leapfrogging Smith and Walker.

So, who will be better off, Lelie for getting his wish, or the Broncos, for granting it?

"Let's be honest. If a player has a certain amount of leverage and a franchise has a certain amount of leverage, the franchise has superior leverage in the situation," Johnson said. "He did get something that he wanted. He got a change of scenery. To expect to miss an entire camp and come in as a No. 1 or No. 2 receiver on any franchise in the NFL is a large order.

"What he got is a chance to have a good year somewhere else as a No. 3. He could have done that here, but he chose to go somewhere else. You hope it works out well for the Denver Broncos and Ashley Lelie."

Updated on Thursday, Aug 24, 2006 4:18 am EDT

Sounds like someone is misunderestimating the Broncos WR depth. Although Walker's knee plus Smith's age and Watt's hands grouped with Marshall's rookie-ness tacked on to Kircus' sandwich artistry can do that to you.

I would love to work at Subway making $15 hourly.

 

[Aaronstory]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

 

[diesel7982]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

What the alternative? Lelie wasnt going to get on the field and be Lelie in 2006.Broncos made an EXCELLENT deal given the situation.

 

[sholditch]

From Yahoo! Sports:

-- David Kircus, who was cut four times by the Detroit Lions and spent the offseason making sandwiches at a Subway shop for $15 an hour.

Sounds like someone is misunderestimating the Broncos WR depth. Although Walker's knee plus Smith's age and Watt's hands grouped with Marshall's rookie-ness tacked on to Kircus' sandwich artistry can do that to you.

I would love to work at Subway making $15 hourly.

I am about to quit my office job and apply at Subway. That's freaking unreal. $15 an hour? That can't be right.

 

[Rushmore]

Just more targets for TE Tony Scheffler.

 

[B Maverick]

David Kircus, who was cut four times by the Detroit Lions

I think this is the best endoresement for a player ever. 4 times by the Lions?!?! Damn they really are a mess up there.

 

[cstu]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

People are underestimating Brandon Marshall. If he has to step into the starting role I believe he'll do at least as well as Lelie would have.

 

[BusMan]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

People are underestimating Brandon Marshall. If he has to step into the starting role I believe he'll do at least as well as Lelie would have.

Agreed. He'll have growing pains, but I think he'll be more of a presence than Lelie was. Yeah, that sounds vague, so I'll clarify: less games where he seems to disappear. Considering he is WR3/WR4, he'll mostly see the field on long passing downs and he's insurance for Walker's knee and Smith's age (although I think this is always more played up then it should be). He looks to be a really solid red zone target as well, where he can use his size to outmatch opposing CBs.Additionally, there is no way Subway pays anyone $15 an hour...unless of course they're trying to keep him off a practice squad somwhere.

 

[SSOG]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.Also, the reason Kircus got such a sweet deal at Subway is because it was owned by a friend of the family. He needed a part time job to support himself while he continued working out and trying to make it in football, and a family friend owned a Subway shop, so they hired him and gave him a very flexible schedule and really nice pay. It's basically nepotism at its finest.

 

[Z-Dog]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

What the alternative? Lelie wasnt going to get on the field and be Lelie in 2006.Broncos made an EXCELLENT deal given the situation.

Our two posts do not conflict. The Broncos are paper-thin at WR, but given that Lelie wasn't going to play for them, they got excellent value. Too bad it won't help them this year, when the lack of depth bites them in the rear.

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.

I disagree. Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, Ashley Lelie and Shannon Sharpe at TE is a much better group than Rod Smith some four years later, Javon Walker coming off of an ACL, and good old club-hand at WR3 to go with Tony Scheffler at TE.

 

[BusMan]

And now from Mr. Pasquarelli:

If Broncos demand all that's due, Lelie may pay to playBy Len PasquarelliESPN.comThere have been many players in NFL history, although not recently, who have suggested they love the game so much that they would play it for free. Ashley LelieLelieWide receiver Ashley Lelie, traded from the Denver Broncos to the Atlanta Falcons on Tuesday as part of a three-team swap that also included the Washington Redskins, might go beyond that.Depending on how Broncos officials resolve various fines and potential penalties pending against Lelie as a result of his decision to boycott all the team's offseason activities, and his failure to report to training camp despite having a contract, the four-year veteran could go into the red for 2006.And we're not just talking about the primary color in the Falcons' uniforms.Under the terms of his original contract, signed as a first-round choice in the 2002 draft, Lelie was to have made $700,000 for the 2006 season -- an offseason workout bonus of $100,000 and a $600,000 base salary.Lelie forfeited the workout bonus, though, when he chose to skip the Broncos' offseason program. He was then fined slightly more than $11,000, the maximum allowed by the collective bargaining agreement, when he was a no-show at Denver's mandatory three-day minicamp July 6-8. And his failure to report to camp drew daily fines of $14,000, totaling $378,000.In addition, it is believed that the Broncos will seek to recover a prorated share of the $3.3 million signing bonus that Lelie received in 2002. The total for fines and potential penalties accrued by Lelie is close to $1.1 million and, as part of the trade agreement, the wide receiver reportedly signed a document that allows the Broncos to seek that amount.There is a chance that, finally rid of Lelie, the Broncos might forgive a portion of that amount be or be willing to negotiate a lower figure. To this point, however, Denver officials have not been inclined to do so. Conventional wisdom is that Denver coach Mike Shanahan wants the penalties against Lelie to have some teeth, in part to dissuade other players from adopting a strategy similar to the wideout's failed approach.What did Lelie's holdout accomplish for him on the field? The boycott was precipitated in part by the Broncos' acquisition of former Green Bay standout Javon Walker and by Lelie's desire to be more than the No. 3 wide receiver on the roster. But with the Falcons, he will be the No. 3 wideout, behind starters Roddy White and Michael Jenkins.In a statement released by the Falcons on Thursday morning, Lelie, who was expected to participate in his first practice with his new team later in the day said: "I don't even know how to put it into words, that is how excited I am. The most exciting part is that I get to step back on the football field. I've missed it."If the Broncos penalize Lelie to the maximum, and recover part of his signing bonus, practice time might be the least expensive thing missing for him.

to you, Ash. You've made everyone's situation better but your own.

 

[BusMan]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

What the alternative? Lelie wasnt going to get on the field and be Lelie in 2006.Broncos made an EXCELLENT deal given the situation.

Our two posts do not conflict. The Broncos are paper-thin at WR, but given that Lelie wasn't going to play for them, they got excellent value. Too bad it won't help them this year, when the lack of depth bites them in the rear.

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.

I disagree. Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, Ashley Lelie and Shannon Sharpe at TE is a much better group than Rod Smith some four years later, Javon Walker coming off of an ACL, and good old club-hand at WR3 to go with Tony Scheffler at TE.

Sorry mang, but you didn't address the depth of the position. The back end is much better, while the starters are a bit worse (at least on this side of the 2006 season).Smith [2006] < Smith [2002] (but not by that much)

Walker [2006] > McCaffery [2002] (again, not much difference)

Scheffler [2006] < Sharpe [2002]

Watts [2006] < Lelie [2002]

Marshall [2006] > Scottie Montgomery [2002]

Kircus [2006] > Kevin Kasper [2002]

Terrell [2006] > Herb Haygood [2002]

 

[switz]

Smith [2006] < Smith [2002] (but not by that much)

Walker [2006] > McCaffery [2002] (again, not much difference)

Scheffler [2006] < Sharpe [2002]

Watts [2006] < Lelie [2002]

Marshall [2006] > Scottie Montgomery [2002]

Kircus [2006] > Kevin Kasper [2002]

Terrell [2006] > Herb Haygood [2002]

Isn't this Watts third year? Maybe he'll learn how to catch finally....

 

[BusMan]

Smith [2006] < Smith [2002] (but not by that much)

Walker [2006] > McCaffery [2002] (again, not much difference)

Scheffler [2006] < Sharpe [2002]

Watts [2006] < Lelie [2002]

Marshall [2006] > Scottie Montgomery [2002]

Kircus [2006] > Kevin Kasper [2002]

Terrell [2006] > Herb Haygood [2002]

Isn't this Watts third year? Maybe he'll learn how to catch finally....

Broncos fans can always hope. He's a fast decoy if nothing else. Once Marshall is fully recoverd I expect him to take over the WR3 role. You kinda need a guy with dependable hands in that position.

 

[SSOG]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

What the alternative? Lelie wasnt going to get on the field and be Lelie in 2006.Broncos made an EXCELLENT deal given the situation.

Our two posts do not conflict. The Broncos are paper-thin at WR, but given that Lelie wasn't going to play for them, they got excellent value. Too bad it won't help them this year, when the lack of depth bites them in the rear.

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.

I disagree. Rod Smith, Ed McCaffrey, Ashley Lelie and Shannon Sharpe at TE is a much better group than Rod Smith some four years later, Javon Walker coming off of an ACL, and good old club-hand at WR3 to go with Tony Scheffler at TE.

Well, first off, take Sharpe out of there because he's not a WR. Second off, you want to call that a deeper WR corps than this year's? There were only four WRs who caught a single pass all season!Rod Smith + Ed McCaffrey in 2002 are probably a comparable 1-2 to Rod Smith + Javon Walker this year. Walker might be coming off of an ACL, but McCaffrey was coming off of a broken leg and was past his prime. I love McCaffrey- one of my favorite Denver players of all time- but Rod '06 + JWalk > Rod '02 + McCaffrey.As for the rest of it... only two other WRs caught a pass that season (Lelie + Scottie Montgomery), and one of them was a rookie. I'd take Watts/Marshall/Kircus/Terrell over Lelie/Montgomery.

 

[Z-Dog]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

 

[diesel7982]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

 

[Aaronstory]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

Again, I say

 

[Aaronstory]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

Funny how you don't deal with the meat of his argument, but choose to nitpick this one point...

 

[diesel7982]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

Funny how you don't deal with the meat of his argument, but choose to nitpick this one point...

I wasnt "dealing" with his "meat".Was just curious why he chose the word "ancient". Seems like he was trying to discount Rod because of his age, when in fact last year was one of Rod's better years.

 

[BoltBacker]

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.

.... and last year Watts couldn't beat out Adams so what does that tell you?

 

[BoltBacker]

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

Sounds like what raider fans were saying right after they went to the superbowl; These guys ain't old.... they just got to the superbowl!!father time = undefeated

 

[diesel7982]

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

Sounds like what raider fans were saying right after they went to the superbowl; These guys ain't old.... they just got to the superbowl!!father time = undefeated

I dont disagree...but trying to apply that logic to all older WRs is just silly.Saying that "Father Time" is undefeated doesnt mean that he hasnt lost a few rounds to guys like Rod Smith or Jimmy Smith or Jerry Rice.

 

[SSOG]

I think anyone who considers Rod Smith + Javon Walker to be one of the bottom 50% WR tandems in the league is seriously mistaken. Again, Rod Smith was a pro bowler last year. Javon Walker is, according to all reports, showing no signs of his injury.If Javon Walker coming off a season-ending ACL injury means Denver has a bottom 50% WR tandem, then I suppose Cincinatti has a bottom 50% QB situation, too. And Daunte Culpepper must be worse than Gus Frerotte, right? I mean, Walker's actually further along the recovery path than either of those guys, and he's still apparently a scrub.

Soory, but Denver is paper-thin at WR, and it will bite them in the rear before the end of the season.

Not good posting. Denver's deeper at WR than they've been in their entire time under Shanahan. How do I know this? Because last year the #3 and #4 WRs were Charlie Adams and Todd Devoe... and this year, Denver could keep 6 WRs and neither would even make the team. And that's with Lelie out of town, too.

.... and last year Watts couldn't beat out Adams so what does that tell you?

Obviously that either Adams has regressed or Watts has improved. According to the coaching staff, it's the latter.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

Sounds like what raider fans were saying right after they went to the superbowl; These guys ain't old.... they just got to the superbowl!!father time = undefeated

What? Father time = undefeated? Jerry Rice played into his 40s. It sounds to me like he defeated Father Time 6 or more times before finally losing. Final score: Jerry Rice 6, Father Time 1.Rod Smith managed to defeat Father Time last year, too. So it's at least Rod Smith 1, Father Time 0.

 

[Z-Dog]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

You think age is an irrelevant consideration? Rod Smith, btw, was on many of my teams last year, and you can probably find me pimping him if you searched through my posts from last year. Nevertheless, there is a limit. You can't assume that a player of Smith's age will continue to be super productive, or stay healthy, and it's exactly when teams make those assumptions and fail to preparea a replacement behind the aging star that they get bitten.

Even assuming that Rod Smith was 27 and catching for 1400 yards, the Broncos still would have crappy depth though, so I'm not sure what the point of your post was.

 

[diesel7982]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

You think age is an irrelevant consideration? Rod Smith, btw, was on many of my teams last year, and you can probably find me pimping him if you searched through my posts from last year. Nevertheless, there is a limit. You can't assume that a player of Smith's age will continue to be super productive, or stay healthy, and it's exactly when teams make those assumptions and fail to preparea a replacement behind the aging star that they get bitten.

Even assuming that Rod Smith was 27 and catching for 1400 yards, the Broncos still would have crappy depth though, so I'm not sure what the point of your post was.

This is what I was curious about. You were making an argument about depth, yet called Smith ancient. How does that affect your argument either way?

 

[Z-Dog]

I think anyone who considers Rod Smith + Javon Walker to be one of the bottom 50% WR tandems in the league is seriously mistaken. Again, Rod Smith was a pro bowler last year. Javon Walker is, according to all reports, showing no signs of his injury.If Javon Walker coming off a season-ending ACL injury means Denver has a bottom 50% WR tandem, then I suppose Cincinatti has a bottom 50% QB situation, too. And Daunte Culpepper must be worse than Gus Frerotte, right? I mean, Walker's actually further along the recovery path than either of those guys, and he's still apparently a scrub.

Here are the 16 tandems I prefer to Smith + Walker, taking into account the age, injury risk, and WR moving to a new team issues:Mason-Clayton (Balt.)Johnson-Housh (Cin)Johnson-Moulds (Hou - a close one)Harrison-WayneMoss-Gabriel or Porter or Curry (Oak)Owens-Glenn (Dal)Burress-Toomer (NYG)Moss-Randle El (Was)Smith-Johnson (Car)Galloway-Clayton (TB)Fitz - Boldin (Ari)Holt-Bruce (Stl)Jacskon-BurlesonJones-Wilford (Jax)Horn-Stallworth (NO)Ward-Wilson (Pitt)I guess what I'm saying is that I think Denver will be lucky for either one of those WRs to break 1000 yards receiving. I also think it's foolish to compare WRs with ACLs to QBs with ACLs.

 

[Z-Dog]

I geuss we'll have to agree to disagree. Denver's top WRs are an ancient Rod Smith and a 1st year back from ACL Javon Walker. That's definitely in the bottom half, league-wide.

As for depth beyond that, Watts has 33 career receptions, including only 2 last year, and only a 12.3 ypc. He is best known for being unable to catch. Heck, there are teams with a 4th and 5th WR better than this guy. ANd behind that you have a collection of street FAs, injured rookies, and a giant former first-round bust.

Good depth usually means a solid starting pair, and then a reliable veteran presence to go along with promising younger players. Tampa has good WR depth. Oakland has great WR depth. The Giantys have decent WR depth. But the Broncos do not. They have a bunch of lottery tickets that they hope pay off into a decent WR coprs.

What does age have to do with it? Would you call the 35 yr old Rod Smith who caught 85 passes last year, ancient?

You think age is an irrelevant consideration? Rod Smith, btw, was on many of my teams last year, and you can probably find me pimping him if you searched through my posts from last year. Nevertheless, there is a limit. You can't assume that a player of Smith's age will continue to be super productive, or stay healthy, and it's exactly when teams make those assumptions and fail to preparea a replacement behind the aging star that they get bitten.

Even assuming that Rod Smith was 27 and catching for 1400 yards, the Broncos still would have crappy depth though, so I'm not sure what the point of your post was.

This is what I was curious about. You were making an argument about depth, yet called Smith ancient. How does that affect your argument either way?

Yeah, I just meant that there is a higher chance that Smith will be limited by eitehr injury or declining production, and this chance rises with every passing year. A team with tow guys in their prime at WR can skimp a bit on depth there and it is less likely to hurt them. I said two things in my original post: 1) they have bad depth and 2) it will bite them in the rear. Rod Smith's age has more to do with point 2.