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Yet another Pitt Bull attack (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pantherclub
- Start date
steelerfan1
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
Maybe they are
Kidding - but I imagine they would have similar thoughts about rehoming reagrdless of the breed.
mr roboto
Footballguy
This reminds me of the assault weapons debate. ‘Responsible owners.’ ‘Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.’
True. Yet I live in the real world where there exists lots of idiots and bad dog or gun owners. I’d rather they have a .22 or a spaniel than an AR-15 or a pit.
True. Yet I live in the real world where there exists lots of idiots and bad dog or gun owners. I’d rather they have a .22 or a spaniel than an AR-15 or a pit.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
they should have just asked modogg or eoMMAn from the Internet. These dogs RULE, pit bull haterz DROOL!
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they should have just asked modogg or eoMMAn from the Internet. These dogs RULE, pit bull haterz DROOL!
You guys aren't providing solid arguments for your side. The pro-pit bull side is posting links from experts in the field along with links from major organizations giving their take on why singling out the specific breed makes no sense.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
We are providing much, much more then an argument.
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DallasDMac
Footballguy
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
The single instances are numbering in the hundreds over the past few decades. If you refuse to see that, its a you problem.
Kill all pitt bull breeds in captivity. Sterilize all pitt bull breeds that exist; zero reproduction allowed.
Humans manipulated the murderous breed, humans can take it back.
Enjoy your fluffy pit bull now.
modogg
Footballguy
my Rottweiller is supposed to be a Rottweiller/mastiff mix. i know half of this thread just pee'd their pants, but that guy is definitely the runt of the litter. Seeing attacks like that by mastiffs are strange though, i know half of this thread is scared to death of mastiffs, but most are known as the most docile and relaxed dogs out there (i believe, no evidence to back it up, just off the top of my head).
To let people know about the status of dogs in our country, my wife and I used to foster dogs/pups from the local shelters (on a side note, if anybody is looking for a dog, i strongly recommend getting one that i foster'd. Dogs we would send to their homes were trained and socialized already). Anyway, one dog we got was a mastiff that was about 5-6 months. Unfortunately this dog was either at the shelter or just in a kennel for most of his life, so when we got him, the guy didn't know how to walk right. He spent 3/5-4/5 of his life in a cage, and he grew like 2-4 times his size in that time. He was a dopey mastiff, but i remember still to this day when he would come down the stairs and fall on his face or run into the table because he was the most uncoordinated thing you could imagine. Got better after a month or so, but it was funny/sad to see this 80-90 pound dog come rumbling down the stairs in my small house and just barrell over everything.
modogg
Footballguy
we could look this thread, and i am sure it isn't in the hundreds. about 50% of the articles listed in this thread alone have been found to be faulty (wrong breed, etc.). I do love the answer to just kill off an entire breed. Sure, that will fix everything. I love living in rainbow and unicorn land!!!!
ETA: again, not saying there aren't "pit bull" attacks and that they shouldn't be ignored. Just saying the actual data and numbers always seems to move all around, like in the 80s and 90s with kids at halloween finding razors in their candy
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steelerfan1
Footballguy
steelerfan1
Footballguy
50,000+
10,000+
3,500+
65+
25+
All are rough victim totals for the year. Lutherman and others here, what would you say deserves the 90 plus page thread of outrage?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Sorry, but the posts I quoted were just over the past few days. And were ALL deaths.
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Dedfin
Footballguy
Thanks! I am not going to wade through pages in hopes of finding a solution that I think is a good idea. Maybe I should. I really wanted to find some commonality between the anti and pro people here. Is this an issue that really needs to be solved? Is this an issue that can be solved? Do enough people die from this that we want to write laws against it? Surely some smart people here can dream up a reasonable cost/benefit analysis to determine if these dogs are worth having.
When a dog attacks and kills someone why don't they get charged with murder? Is this not a reasonable deterrent? I would guess most of the dog attacks aren't by strays that have no owner and most of the time we can find out who the owner is. If the dog owner is looking at 20 years for letting his pet chew his neighbors face off, maybe he'd think twice about getting such an animal and instead opt for a parakeet or something.
The people that want to go breed specific banning, how would this be done? Just going to look at the dog and say yesno? Can we even isolate the breed via genotype? I suspect not, but I don't know for sure. I would think a dogs DNA may be nearly impossible to discern between a boxer and a cane corso or pit bull or whatever, at least not accurately enough to ensure some boxers don't get lumped in with the murder dogs. That's not fair to boxers or boxer owners. Should something just be enforced by the damage potential of a dog? so yorkies/other crap dogs fall under one category and other more athletic dogs fall under others?
steelerfan1
Footballguy
Would you say the attacks I listed though we're similar in severity?BigSteelThrill said:
steelerfan1
Footballguy
Hello dedfin, Thanks for well thought out post, as well as being level headed. I think both sides of the fence, myself included tend to "loose it" a little bit at times. I don't think there is much of a chance that the anti and pro crowd will ever be singing Kumbaya together, but it's the people on the fence that each side is vying for, yourself included.Dedfin said:
I'd like to try to address all of your questions, and this may be a TLDR, so I apologize in advance. Some of the response will be my thoughts, but I will try to provide some stats as well.
I do think this is an issue that needs to be solved. As far as the can part goes... I'm not sure. I do feel strongly though that BSL is not the answer.
University of Texas Study: 1966–1980
A study[9] conducted at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical School identified 74 fatal dog bites during the period 1966–1980 from news media and medical literature.
Most fatalities were young children, including 23 infants under 1 year old. In most cases, the dog was owned by the victim's family. In only 3 of the incidents was the dog reported to have been provoked by kicking, hitting, or having stones thrown at it. However, several incidents involved a child attempting to pet or hug the dog.[9]
In 6 of the incidents, there was no information available about the kind of dogs involved. In ten fatal attacks, the dogs were only described as "mixed-breed".
Many involved large and powerful molosser breeds: eight Saint Bernards, six Bull terriers, six Great Danes, two Boxers and a Rottweiler. In contrast to the time period covered in other studies, the researchers found NO FATAL ATTACKS attributed to any PIT BULLS at all.
The breed we classify as a Pit bull has been in our country since roughly 1906. So for roughly 75 years this breed exists without issue. What changed after that? If it can happen with this breed, isn’t it realistic it could happen again to another?
A CDCP Study:
The study found reports of 327 people killed by dogs over the 20-year period. Some breed information was available for 238 (73%) of the fatalities. Of 227 incidents with relevant data, 133 (58%) were unrestrained dogs and on the owners' property; 55 (24%) were loose off the owners' property; 38 (17%) were restrained dogs on their owners' property; and only one (less than 1%) was restrained off the owners' property.[10]
That’s 82% of the incidents occurring due to an unrestrained animal. 82%...We need to correct that.
Estimated studies show that only 0.0012 percent of the estimated pit bull population was involved in a fatal attack. There is an estimated 5 million pit bulls in the US, so clearly the number of incidents will be higher even though you can see where the % lies. I don’t have a number, but say there are 500 reported attacks by pit bulls this year, not fatalities, but attacks. Even the attack rate is far less than a percent. I don’t see any other debate where people are clamoring to damn something for less than 1 percent…
I believe some states are charging people for murder for a viscous animal attack fatality. You say if BSL is legislated would DNA be an option because it wouldn’t be fair to the poor boxer owner…Well, what about if the boxer kills someone? That’s where I have the big issue. It seems like if another breed of dog kills someone it is tragic, but if a pit bull kills someone they should all be wiped off the planet.
Be a responsible dog owner. If you are at fault, be held accountable for your actions.
Sorry I'm rambling a bit, but thanks again for post.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I dont need to have written a book to know that if your whole argument is that the entire population just needs to be educated better in order to then make it so a breed behaves better, that you arent very bright.
Youre smart enough to know that is a really dumb argument to make. Humans will never treat animals 100% correctly. Never. No matter how much money you want to spend on classes in public schools about interacting with dogs. I feel dumber even having to discuss this with you.
No, no, no ignore all of the deaths and data about pit bulls. Listen to me, dog lady! Just let me teach your kids to be dog trainers and i will prove you wrong about pit bulls. Just you watch.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
No.
Here is the past 30 days of Rottweiler attacks on google-news.
NOT a single death.
Well, BEES swarmed killed 1 rottweiler. :(
And that over twice the time frame as those holiday pit terrier killings.
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
steelerfan1
Footballguy
No sarcasm here. I am glad to hear of no reported attacks. My question though was about severity of, not number of.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The bold is baloney. You guys always say it isnt a pure pit bull and act like you won the debate and proved the article wrong. Even if your analysis based a single photo was correct, whether it is a pure pit bull or a mix doesnt matter. It still has the genetic trait somewhere inside that predisposes it to an ability to grab onto a bull's nose and hang on for dear life while it is getting slammed to the ground.modogg said:
So when you read a detail in a story where it refused to let go of a mans arm while he was trying to pull his arm through an ajar door, it doesnt take a genius to know where that came from. Who cares if it was only 60% pit bull. Jesus. What a stupid detail to get caught up on.
Can you elaborate and provide links?
What is your opinion on steerlerfan1's post that showed three major organizations that disagree with breed specific restrictions? Are all three organizations wrong?
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/LiteratureReviews/Pages/The-Role-of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx
https://www.aspcapro.org/resource/disaster-cruelty-animal-cruelty-animal-fighting/are-breed-specific-laws-effective
http://m.humanesociety.org/issues/breed-specific-legislation/fact_sheets/breed-specific-legislation-no-basis-in-science.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
STATE FARM INSURANCE
“We do not ask nor do we care what breed of dog is owned by a person. So when we are writing home owner’s insurance, rental insurance, or renewing policies, it is nowhere in our questions what breed of dog is owned.” — Heather Paul, Public Affairs Specialist
“We do not ask nor do we care what breed of dog is owned by a person. So when we are writing home owner’s insurance, rental insurance, or renewing policies, it is nowhere in our questions what breed of dog is owned.” — Heather Paul, Public Affairs Specialist
THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
HUD recognizes that breed is an irrelevant factor to ensuring the general public health and safety of a housing community by asserting that all breeds of domestic dogs can be assistance animals regardless of any state or local breed bans and states: "Breed, size, and weight limitations may not be applied to an assistance animal. A determination that an assistance animal poses a direct threat of harm to others or would cause substantial physical damage to the property of others must be based on an individualized assessment that relies on objective evidence about the specific animal's actual conduct—not on mere speculation or fear about the types of harm or damage an animal may cause and not on evidence about harm or damage that other animals have caused."
HUD recognizes that breed is an irrelevant factor to ensuring the general public health and safety of a housing community by asserting that all breeds of domestic dogs can be assistance animals regardless of any state or local breed bans and states: "Breed, size, and weight limitations may not be applied to an assistance animal. A determination that an assistance animal poses a direct threat of harm to others or would cause substantial physical damage to the property of others must be based on an individualized assessment that relies on objective evidence about the specific animal's actual conduct—not on mere speculation or fear about the types of harm or damage an animal may cause and not on evidence about harm or damage that other animals have caused."
steelerfan1
Footballguy
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Yes the military bans wolf-hybrids, pit bulls and rottweilers from being kept around housing.
They still use them as work dogs/war dogs, but they are not to be kept around people.
Wouldn't you agree that there are far more pitts and pitt mixes out there than Rottweilers? So yeah, not surprising that you hear of more pitt attacks than Rottweilers.
Also, from 1991 to 1998, there were more Rottweiler fatal dog bites compared to pit bulls. 33 compared to 21.
Thoughts on that stat? Did pit bulls learn to get more deadly over the years?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95747&page=1
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Yes. Seriously. If those dog trainers say that it isnt the breed, it is the fact that we dont teach a class in public school teaching kids how to behave with dogs. Yes. Then i know infinitely more than that individual about this topic.
I know more about this topic than any dog trainer that says pit bulls(or mixes) are not more likely than most other dogs to inflict great harm.
Yes. Seriously. 100%. If dog trainers are out there saying those things, they are liars with an agenda or idiots.
I mean jesus, listen to what youbare saying. You are actually trying to hold up as an expert somebody advocating that one of the problems is there arent classes in public schools for how to interact with dogs. Unreal.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
That comment was about the author of an article he posted. That was her argument.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Yes, because the OWNERS messed it up. This poor breed has been royally effed over by their owners.
Should we really rely on them for input at this point?
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Question: Do you folks believe certain breeds exhibit and display certain and reliable characteristics?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
of course.
like how Cesar Millan will explain some breeds dont want to use their noses - and they should and have to be trained in that regard.
You are either trolling or have absolutely no interest in having an honest discussion on this if you won't listen to the opinion of experts who work with all types of dogs everyday.
It's one thing to disagree with eoMMan from the internet but jeez...listen to the experts, man. It's not fake news.
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
DallasDMac
Footballguy
If only she had taken a class in school.....
I agree.
For folks on the Pro Pit Bull side, Do you folks believe certain breeds exhibit and display certain and reliable characteristics?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
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