You're the Ref. Your Rules. What's the call. (1 Viewer)

[cowboyz1]

Out of curiosity, rules not withstanding, does anyone here believe that, at any point in the play did Dez Bryant have possession of the ball? Just going by what your eyes see. No rules interpretation just what you believe as a football fan or player based on what you saw during the play itself. Forget what the rules say. You are the ref on the sideline and the play happens right in front of you. No replay, just make the call.

 

[renesauz]

Not sure how you take rules completely out of it. The NFL needs a rule similar to this one. ANd it would be difficult to write such a rule to disallow the diving catches that come out after a player hits the ground (which often include a "football move" such as pulling the ball back to the body) and one like this.

It sucks that catches like Dez's get caught by the rule, but it is a simple rule in the end, and not terribly difficult to enforce. Football moves are IRRELEVANT if a player is going to the ground before the move is made.

No catch.

 

[Bankerguy]

Not sure how you take rules completely out of it. The NFL needs a rule similar to this one. ANd it would be difficult to write such a rule to disallow the diving catches that come out after a player hits the ground (which often include a "football move" such as pulling the ball back to the body) and one like this.

It sucks that catches like Dez's get caught by the rule, but it is a simple rule in the end, and not terribly difficult to enforce. Football moves are IRRELEVANT if a player is going to the ground before the move is made.

No catch.

Wrong....everyone is getting the Calvin Johnson rule mixed up here or a sideline play. Dez's play is different.

2 feet

Control of the ball

Football move

The instant the move happens it's a catch regardless if he is going to the ground.

 

[thehoch]

The refs interpreted the rule wrong.

In this case the player came down with the ball and then stretched forward. To me, it's that simple.

 

[Short Corner]

 

[Anarchy99]

My rules would be that the receiver and the defensive back must fight to the death. Dez did not. So no catch.

 

[ROYALWITCHEESE]

How about we just say if you catch and hold the ball (meaning not lose it at all) it's a catch, and if you don't, it isn't?

 

[Dr. Octopus]

It's time to move on. 40 posts and now a poll is not going to change the results of the game.

 

[Jeremy]

My rules would be that the receiver and the defensive back must fight to the death. Dez did not. So no catch.

Yeah, if the fantasy football community is saying a catch is worth 10 yards of actual production, let's make it as hard as possible.

 

[Hang 10]

Never give up. Ever.

 

[bostonfred]

My rules would be that the receiver and the defensive back must fight to the death. Dez did not. So no catch.

they're both still alive so technically there's still time.

 

[FlapJacks]

Two hands on the ball and two feet on the ground would be good enough under my rules

 

[FlapJacks]

How about we just say if you catch and hold the ball (meaning not lose it at all) it's a catch, and if you don't, it isn't?

when is it a catch and when is it a fumble?

 

[thayman]

Never give up. Ever.

NEVER GIVE UP!! NEVER SURRENDER!!

 

[massraider]

we need a thread about this.

 

[Godsbrother]

It's time to move on. 40 posts and now a poll is not going to change the results of the game.

This. The Cowboys lost just let it go.

 

[massraider]

Should tell your dip$h!t owner that when he served on the Competition Committee he should have changed that stupid rule.

Talk to Jerry.

 

[FlapJacks]

The irony is that the intention of removing the "football move" was to make it easier to catch the ball...

 

[Burl]

He isn't taking this well I see...

 

[FlapJacks]

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=341397

 

[FlapJacks]

Ah, nevermind, found one through a link from another message board.

http://www.atlantafalcons.com/News/Article...s_for_2007.aspx

FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. – Veteran NFL officials Ed Hochuli, Doug Rosenbaum and Mark Hittner were at training camp for a second day Friday to review Falcons practice and answer questions regarding rule changes.

Each year the league’s competition committee, which is co-chaired by President and General Manager Rich McKay, makes rule-change recommendations to increase player safety and improve the quality of the game.

Changes for 2007 are light compared to past years, but Hochuli and his team still do their homework to get themselves, and teams, ready for the season.

“The one (change) I think is the most dramatic is not really a rule change, it’s just an interpretation change from the competition committee that deals with what is a completed catch,” Hochuli said.

Beginning this season, a receiver that gets two feet down and has control of the ball has a reception.

Traditionally a player needed to make “a football move” after a catch to have it classified a reception. Now, a quick hit from a defender could result in a fumble.

“Sometimes there’s a situation where there were three steps and the ball would come out and it would be correctly ruled an incomplete pass,” Hochuli said. “So, the receiver gets a second foot down, gets hit and the ball comes lose -- we would have a fumble rather than an incomplete pass.”

The play will continue to be subject to review via instant replay.

Another prominent change includes player celebration and spiking the ball. Beginning in 2007, a player can only spike the ball to celebrate a touchdown or if they are as part of a celebration out of bounds.

“If a player scores, or thinks he has scored, and he spikes the football obviously that’s no problem – as long as he doesn’t spike it at the feet in a taunting situation of another player,” Hochuli said. “If he gets a first down or catches a long pass and hops up and spikes or throws the ball, that’s a 5-yard penalty for delay of game.

“It does delay the game and it’s something that carries over to Saturday mornings when the youth football leagues are playing... The NFL is always very concerned about sportsmanship and what it passes on to younger players.”

Players must also take extra care in buckling their chinstraps this season. If any strap is unbuckled at the snap the player will be subject to a fine.

Officials will not penalize players for chinstrap violations – that responsibility goes to the uniform official who tallies up other violations – but they will give friendly reminders on the field.

“This is part of the league’s never-ending effort to try to make the game safer,” Hochuli said. “There have been several studies shown that it increases the chance of a concussion if a players’ chin strap is not buckled when he gets hit.”

Another major change comes at the goal line, where players will have to work a little harder on those acrobatic touchdown dives.

Beginning this season, the football must cross over or inside the pylon for a touchdown to be awarded. In past years, any part of a player’s body could cross the plane – even if the ball was out of bounds – for a score.

Hochuli also outlined changes in how “roughing the passer" will be called.

A player can now make contact with the quarterback, even send him to the ground, as long as it’s part of a continuous motion from his attempt to make a tackle.

“We try to protect the quarterbacks because they’re defenseless out there and they’re an integral part of the game,” Hochuli said. “There’s always that issue of interpretation. It’s going to take more than if he’s one step away and then he pushes him.

“The competition committee felt the rules had gone a little bit too far in protecting the quarterback in a situation where he’s very unlikely to get hurt... A lot of times a quarterback goes down just because he doesn’t have his balance.”

 

[Lehigh98]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4pg6Jh94Lo

Not sure if its more fun watching Cowboys fans react to this or the botched FG against Seattle.

 

[FlapJacks]

It looks to me like they have been calling it wrong for seven seasons because of the precedent sent by the misinterpretation on the infamous "Calvin Johnson rule" play.....

 

[steveski]

If I'm the ref, I'm having the Cowboys lose every important game by a questionable call. It's more fun that way.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Two hands on the ball and two feet on the ground would be good enough under my rules

 

[BroadwayG]

Two hands on the ball and two feet on the ground would be good enough under my rules

So mr stonehands receiver will just have a lot of fumbles instead of drops?

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

Shouldn't you be more worried about the Cowboys losing like, all of their good players in a month?

Good luck with the ceaseless whining until then, I suppose. America's Team.

 

[Bucky86]

HFS. Are all of the Texas wal marts out of tissues yet?

 

[moondog]

Not sure how you take rules completely out of it. The NFL needs a rule similar to this one. ANd it would be difficult to write such a rule to disallow the diving catches that come out after a player hits the ground (which often include a "football move" such as pulling the ball back to the body) and one like this.

It sucks that catches like Dez's get caught by the rule, but it is a simple rule in the end, and not terribly difficult to enforce. Football moves are IRRELEVANT if a player is going to the ground before the move is made.

No catch.

Wrong....everyone is getting the Calvin Johnson rule mixed up here or a sideline play. Dez's play is different.

2 feet

Control of the ball

Football move

The instant the move happens it's a catch regardless if he is going to the ground.

Because you had a bad day

You're taking one down

You sing a sad song just to turn it around

You say you don't know

You tell me don't lie

You work at a smile and you go for a ride

You had a bad day

The camera don't lie

You're coming back down and you really don't mind

You had a bad day

You had a bad day

 

[Insein]

we need a thread about this.

Or 12

 

[Freelove]

Two hands on the ball and two feet on the ground would be good enough under my rules

So mr stonehands receiver will just have a lot of fumbles instead of drops?

Anything that gets back to encouraging more violent hitting is ok in my book. My book is admittedly not an NFL referee's manual. (ETA: nor a pro-player-safety manifesto.)

 

[Stinkin Ref]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

if this was a running play.....it's DAL ball at half yard line....this "completing" the catch stuff is crap....he caught it....he was down by contact....

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

 

[Amused to Death]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

if this was a running play.....it's DAL ball at half yard line....this "completing" the catch stuff is crap....he caught it....he was down by contact....

By that same logic, wouldn't a WR that falls out of bounds be "down" before hitting the ground and losing the ball?

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

if this was a running play.....it's DAL ball at half yard line....this "completing" the catch stuff is crap....he caught it....he was down by contact....

By that same logic, wouldn't a WR that falls out of bounds be "down" before hitting the ground and losing the ball?

This was brought up earlier as well.

 

[JetMaxx]

Just put your tail between your legs and be thankful that Butch Johnson's non catch wasn't held to the same criteria.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee hit the ground and he was "down by contact" before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

as I said, it is all the extra stuff they add to "having to complete the catch" even after you are down that I think needs changed....

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

What's possession? Two hands around the ball? One hand? Fingertips? Does he have to hold it for 1/2 a second? 1/4 second?

See where Im going with this? If we go by your definition, then pretty much anytime a guy is on his knees and the ball slaps his hands the play is dead and its a catch even if he drops the ball.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

What's possession? Two hands around the ball? One hand? Fingertips? Does he have to hold it for 1/2 a second? 1/4 second?

See where Im going with this? If we go by your definition, then pretty much anytime a guy is on his knees and the ball slaps his hands the play is dead and its a catch even he drops the ball.

possession (IMO): ......control of the ball.....

which can include many of the things you listed.....I would not include a time frame....once possession is gained and knee is down....play over

long story short I would just like to see it officiated more the way it was before all these "completing the catch" things were added......back to more like treating running plays and passing/catching plays the same......possession of the ball + down by contact = play over

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

What's possession? Two hands around the ball? One hand? Fingertips? Does he have to hold it for 1/2 a second? 1/4 second?

See where Im going with this? If we go by your definition, then pretty much anytime a guy is on his knees and the ball slaps his hands the play is dead and its a catch even he drops the ball.

possession (IMO): ......control of the ball.....

which can include many of the things you listed.....I would not include a time frame....once possession is gained and knee is down....play over

long story short I would just like to see it officiated more the way it was before all these "completing the catch" things were added......back to more like treating running plays and passing/catching plays the same......possession of the ball + down by contact = play over

Why does the knee get more importance?

What if a guy leaps up. Grabs the ball clearly and mid-air gets hit and he somersaults and lands ball first and it pops loose. Is that a catch?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

What's possession? Two hands around the ball? One hand? Fingertips? Does he have to hold it for 1/2 a second? 1/4 second?

See where Im going with this? If we go by your definition, then pretty much anytime a guy is on his knees and the ball slaps his hands the play is dead and its a catch even he drops the ball.

possession (IMO): ......control of the ball.....

which can include many of the things you listed.....I would not include a time frame....once possession is gained and knee is down....play over

long story short I would just like to see it officiated more the way it was before all these "completing the catch" things were added......back to more like treating running plays and passing/catching plays the same......possession of the ball + down by contact = play over

Why does the knee get more importance?

What if a guy leaps up. Grabs the ball clearly and mid-air gets hit and he somersaults and lands ball first and it pops loose. Is that a catch?

how many somersaults?....

we're gonna be here awhile huh....?

let's see....in this one I'm treating it like he caught it in mid air but did not come down in bounds.....no catch

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Why does the knee get more importance?

it can be knee or whatever else you or the NFL uses/determines (forearm, elbow, butt, etc)....but once one of those hits and is caused by contact...play over

 

[Bucky86]

to me the part the is getting lost in all of this is "down by contact"......IMO....once his knee or whatever other body part they normally use to determine "being down" is down and player has possession.....the play is over.....IMO he had possession and was down by contact at the half yard line.....the ball hitting the ground, bobble, roll, etc after that means nothing....

the possession must be held through his fall to the ground. He was going to the ground after he grabbed it. He didn't grab it, land and run with it, and then fall. It was all one motion. Therefore him dropping the ball against the turf is losing possesion

he caught the ball, had possession.....his knee was down before his arms with the ball made contact with the ground......thus IMO the knee hitting is what should end the "fall to the ground".....as soon as he knee hits and he has possession....play over....

I undersatnd that is not how the NFL officiates it.....I was merely responding to the question asked in the thread......

So, you think the play should be immediately blown dead the second a knee touches the ground even though he drops the ball and it bounces off the turf before landing back in his hands?

yes.....once he has possession and knee is down by contact.....play over.....

What's possession? Two hands around the ball? One hand? Fingertips? Does he have to hold it for 1/2 a second? 1/4 second?

See where Im going with this? If we go by your definition, then pretty much anytime a guy is on his knees and the ball slaps his hands the play is dead and its a catch even he drops the ball.

possession (IMO): ......control of the ball.....

which can include many of the things you listed.....I would not include a time frame....once possession is gained and knee is down....play over

long story short I would just like to see it officiated more the way it was before all these "completing the catch" things were added......back to more like treating running plays and passing/catching plays the same......possession of the ball + down by contact = play over

Why does the knee get more importance?

What if a guy leaps up. Grabs the ball clearly and mid-air gets hit and he somersaults and lands ball first and it pops loose. Is that a catch?

how many somersaults?....

we're gonna be here awhile huh....?

let's see....in this one I'm treating it like he caught it in mid air but did not come down in bounds.....no catch

No, he's inbounds and lets say two somersaults. Is that a catch?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

No, he's inbounds and lets say two somersaults. Is that a catch?

two somesaults I might give it to him cause he has clearly established possession during his second rotation....

and IMO....two rotations = one knee down....

but serioulsy....in your example, since he did not come down in bounds with possession of the ball I would treat it like coming down out of bounds and no catch.....he never came back down with the ball, only the ball touched the ground....

 

[renesauz]

Not sure how you take rules completely out of it. The NFL needs a rule similar to this one. ANd it would be difficult to write such a rule to disallow the diving catches that come out after a player hits the ground (which often include a "football move" such as pulling the ball back to the body) and one like this.

It sucks that catches like Dez's get caught by the rule, but it is a simple rule in the end, and not terribly difficult to enforce. Football moves are IRRELEVANT if a player is going to the ground before the move is made.

No catch.

Wrong....everyone is getting the Calvin Johnson rule mixed up here or a sideline play. Dez's play is different.

2 feet

Control of the ball

Football move

The instant the move happens it's a catch regardless if he is going to the ground.

You're misreading the rules. The falling to the ground line is in addition to the normal rules...an additional caveat to meet in that situation. It HAS IT'S OWN SECTION!

 

[Billy Ball Thorton]

Hate the Cowboys

That was a catch.... Anyone who argues is wrong because I said so.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

I love the title of the thread.

'Was it a catch? Forget about the actual NFL rules for a second, they don't matter. WAS IT A CATCH'!?!

 

[jon_mx]

Why does the knee get more importance?

it can be knee or whatever else you or the NFL uses/determines (forearm, elbow, butt, etc)....but once one of those hits and is caused by contact...play over

That rule solves a lot of problems with the current rule, although it does make a catch too easy IMHO. A guy already down would only need to control the ball momentarily for it to be a catch. There are a lot of potential weird possibilities with the "process" rule. Say for instance a guy dives for a ball as he is going out of bounds, gets his two feet down but he runs into an off-field opponent or cameraman or any bystander and the ball comes out during this fall. There is really nothing that even stops the opponent (who has no business being in the play) from punching the ball loose before the process is complete and thus causing an incompletion. Or maybe the player has to intentionally drop the ball to use his hands to protect a bystander from getting hit. I actually saw one play where a player falling as he was catching the ball going out of the endzone and then slipping on a mat out of bounds and then drop the ball. By rule it should have been an incompletion. It is a weird rule which allows uncontrolled people/objects which are out of play to influence a ruling on the field.