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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Edited by 2Young2BBald
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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Sweet.

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Fun places your jeep will take you:

Buddies and I descending from Mosquito Pass, the highest navigable mountain pass in North America (13,000+ ft).

- Look ma, no guard rails!

- Winching a buddy's Hummer H2 through french creek on Holy Cross trail in Colorado. The jeeps all made it unassisted. To this date, his H2 is likely still the only H2 to have ever made it to Holy Cross "city".

- Driving up the "exit" of French Creek to get to the upper segment of Holy Cross (where it really starts to get hard).

- Playing in the desert outside Moab Utah

- Taking in ridiculous views on the rim of Lockhart Basin outside Moab (look closely on the right).

Bottom line... Once you have your Jeep, take out out and explore. Even if it's mild local trails to start... they are a blast on the road, but will open up a whole new world to you off it :thumbup:

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Fun places your jeep will take you:

Buddies and I descending from Mosquito Pass, the highest navigable mountain pass in North America (13,000+ ft).

- Look ma, no guard rails!

- Winching a buddy's Hummer H2 through french creek on Holy Cross trail in Colorado. The jeeps all made it unassisted. To this date, his H2 is likely still the only H2 to have ever made it to Holy Cross "city".

- Driving up the "exit" of French Creek to get to the upper segment of Holy Cross (where it really starts to get hard).

- Playing in the desert outside Moab Utah

- Taking in ridiculous views on the rim of Lockhart Basin outside Moab (look closely on the right).

Bottom line... Once you have your Jeep, take out out and explore. Even if it's mild local trails to start... they are a blast on the road, but will open up a whole new world to you off it :thumbup:

Awesome stuff.

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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Very cool! Thanks.

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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Very cool! Thanks.

You bet, I found another with the half doors on that I'd linked back a bit http://i.imgur.com/ai3GHTk.jpg

Edited by 2Young2BBald
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Fun places your jeep will take you:

Buddies and I descending from Mosquito Pass, the highest navigable mountain pass in North America (13,000+ ft).

- Look ma, no guard rails!

- Winching a buddy's Hummer H2 through french creek on Holy Cross trail in Colorado. The jeeps all made it unassisted. To this date, his H2 is likely still the only H2 to have ever made it to Holy Cross "city".

- Driving up the "exit" of French Creek to get to the upper segment of Holy Cross (where it really starts to get hard).

- Playing in the desert outside Moab Utah

- Taking in ridiculous views on the rim of Lockhart Basin outside Moab (look closely on the right).

Bottom line... Once you have your Jeep, take out out and explore. Even if it's mild local trails to start... they are a blast on the road, but will open up a whole new world to you off it :thumbup:

Awesome stuff.

Seriously. These pics are insane. I'm jealous.

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Here is what I am trying to convince myself to buy but cannot justify the price.

http://www.####zmotor.com/used/Jeep/2015-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-Mahaffey-PA-83be7cac0a0a006471e5c7edd20a1769.htm

Just buy it....YOLO

So awesome. I was just at a Jeep dealer today looking at used versions in black. But more or less the same thing.

GO FOR IT! I got approval from the missus to do the same. Considering whether I go used or new....

Does anyone have any guidance as to which trim line or package matters? I can't really tell the difference other than a couple really minor points. Does it not really matter?

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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Very cool! Thanks.

You bet, I found another with the half doors on that I'd linked back a bit http://i.imgur.com/ai3GHTk.jpg

Dead link.

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So when I get my new Wrangler, what kind of tires should I get? I will drive it as my primary car, but will take it off road some too. I assume they have dual tires that are pretty good?

The stock tires on that should be fine. :thumbup: on the Jeep you selected too. That is basically my Jeep, right down to the color, just a few years younger. I am trying to find a photo to share to give you an idea of what it'll look like with the top & doors off. I'll share when found.

eta, found one: http://imgur.com/S8E4wyM

Very cool! Thanks.

You bet, I found another with the half doors on that I'd linked back a bit http://i.imgur.com/ai3GHTk.jpg

Dead link.

Lets try Flikr, I obviously haven't figured Imgur yet: https://www.flickr.com/photos/7474357@N04/20310348508/in/dateposted-public/

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Here is what I am trying to convince myself to buy but cannot justify the price.

http://www.####zmotor.com/used/Jeep/2015-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-Mahaffey-PA-83be7cac0a0a006471e5c7edd20a1769.htm

Just buy it....YOLO

So awesome. I was just at a Jeep dealer today looking at used versions in black. But more or less the same thing.

GO FOR IT! I got approval from the missus to do the same. Considering whether I go used or new....

Does anyone have any guidance as to which trim line or package matters? I can't really tell the difference other than a couple really minor points. Does it not really matter?

Seriously consider ordering one new. I just went through this and I was able to negotiate a brand new Willys W Unlimited specced out exactly how we wanted it for about the same as a 1-2 year old used one. No BS. They don't depreciate all that much and dealers seem to be willing to take an additional order at lower margin but want top dollar for lot stock. Takes roughly 6 weeks to get it.

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Here is what I am trying to convince myself to buy but cannot justify the price.

http://www.####zmotor.com/used/Jeep/2015-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-Mahaffey-PA-83be7cac0a0a006471e5c7edd20a1769.htm

Just buy it....YOLO

So awesome. I was just at a Jeep dealer today looking at used versions in black. But more or less the same thing.

GO FOR IT! I got approval from the missus to do the same. Considering whether I go used or new....

Does anyone have any guidance as to which trim line or package matters? I can't really tell the difference other than a couple really minor points. Does it not really matter?

Seriously consider ordering one new. I just went through this and I was able to negotiate a brand new Willys W Unlimited specced out exactly how we wanted it for about the same as a 1-2 year old used one. No BS. They don't depreciate all that much and dealers seem to be willing to take an additional order at lower margin but want top dollar for lot stock. Takes roughly 6 weeks to get it.

I've been noticing this. I can get a used one with low mileage for 32k, or something loaded up and new for like 40k. I'm starting to think new isn't a terrible option on these.

They had one of those 60k things out in front of the Jeep dealer, in that grey powder coat rhino whatever the hell you call it armored paint job. It was bad ###. But 60k? Eesh. They also had a few other specialty ones they had just sold in the 50-60k price point, they looked totally awesome. But I can't justify that.

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These are so bad ###. My local dealer has a couple. They cost like a million dollars.

http://www.rockyridgetrucks.com/index.php/products/ram-and-jeep/jeep/stealth/

You referring to the rhino-lined exterior (PITA for cleaning maintenance) or the build/setup? The lift/bumpers/tires/etc is all easily added to any jeep if that's the case

I think you're missing the point of rhino-lining. It isn't for people who want to make their Jeep look new again after they wash it. It's to keep the body from rusting when you scratch the hell out of it from heavy brush, rocks, and branches. They don't care if their Jeep shines, they just want it to last. My floors are lined so when it gets a good coating of mud, salt and grit, I can just pull the drain plugs and hose it out. It's lasted 10 years and isn't peeling anywhere, which is much better than powder coating in my experience. Yes, it never looks perfectly clean, but I just don't care.

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Here is what I am trying to convince myself to buy but cannot justify the price.

http://www.####zmotor.com/used/Jeep/2015-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-Mahaffey-PA-83be7cac0a0a006471e5c7edd20a1769.htm

Just buy it....YOLO

So awesome. I was just at a Jeep dealer today looking at used versions in black. But more or less the same thing.

GO FOR IT! I got approval from the missus to do the same. Considering whether I go used or new....

Does anyone have any guidance as to which trim line or package matters? I can't really tell the difference other than a couple really minor points. Does it not really matter?

Seriously consider ordering one new. I just went through this and I was able to negotiate a brand new Willys W Unlimited specced out exactly how we wanted it for about the same as a 1-2 year old used one. No BS. They don't depreciate all that much and dealers seem to be willing to take an additional order at lower margin but want top dollar for lot stock. Takes roughly 6 weeks to get it.

The Willy's W looks pretty awesome and good value. This may be the way I go.

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These are so bad ###. My local dealer has a couple. They cost like a million dollars.

http://www.rockyridgetrucks.com/index.php/products/ram-and-jeep/jeep/stealth/

You referring to the rhino-lined exterior (PITA for cleaning maintenance) or the build/setup? The lift/bumpers/tires/etc is all easily added to any jeep if that's the case

I think you're missing the point of rhino-lining. It isn't for people who want to make their Jeep look new again after they wash it. It's to keep the body from rusting when you scratch the hell out of it from heavy brush, rocks, and branches. They don't care if their Jeep shines, they just want it to last. My floors are lined so when it gets a good coating of mud, salt and grit, I can just pull the drain plugs and hose it out. It's lasted 10 years and isn't peeling anywhere, which is much better than powder coating in my experience. Yes, it never looks perfectly clean, but I just don't care.
Trust me man... I know the point of durability... I'm not missing anything. My jeep likely has as much or more in the way of trail-striping and body damage from rocks and such as anyone here... And I've hosed my rig out many times. My floor plugs haven't been in since 2007. :lol:

That said, we are talking about Otis here. He may end up heading down that road but for what I initially expect his use of the vehicle to be, it would end up being a bad idea.

Edited by [icon]
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Stupid question: what does the Rubicon trim add, and is it worth the extra loot?

Rubicon ads a lot of true off road functionality....

- steeper gearing in axles

- 4:1 gear reduction in transfer case in 4lo (slower crawl rate)

- sway bar disconnects for improved articulation

- selectable lockers in axles for improved traction

- more robust Dana 44 axles

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Olive drab looks good on jeeps :thumbsup:
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These are so bad ###. My local dealer has a couple. They cost like a million dollars.

http://www.rockyridgetrucks.com/index.php/products/ram-and-jeep/jeep/stealth/

You referring to the rhino-lined exterior (PITA for cleaning maintenance) or the build/setup? The lift/bumpers/tires/etc is all easily added to any jeep if that's the case

I think you're missing the point of rhino-lining. It isn't for people who want to make their Jeep look new again after they wash it. It's to keep the body from rusting when you scratch the hell out of it from heavy brush, rocks, and branches. They don't care if their Jeep shines, they just want it to last. My floors are lined so when it gets a good coating of mud, salt and grit, I can just pull the drain plugs and hose it out. It's lasted 10 years and isn't peeling anywhere, which is much better than powder coating in my experience. Yes, it never looks perfectly clean, but I just don't care.
Trust me man... I know the point of durability... I'm not missing anything. My jeep likely has as much or more in the way of trail-striping and body damage from rocks and such as anyone here... And I've hosed my rig out many times. My floor plugs haven't been in since 2007. :lol:

That said, we are talking about Otis here. He may end up heading down that road but for what I initially expect his use of the vehicle to be, it would end up being a bad idea.

Point taken. He doesn't strike me as a guy who doesn't care what his rig looks like.

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

Oh crap, hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize they still made cars without power windows???

I wouldn't mind it, except I'm thinking about putting down the rear windows for the kids when we're driving. Hmm...

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

Oh crap, hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize they still made cars without power windows???

I wouldn't mind it, except I'm thinking about putting down the rear windows for the kids when we're driving. Hmm...

Wranglers do typically lag behind almost all other vehicles in technology and modern features. The other awesome aspects make up for it but they aren't hi-tech. Still can't even order a rear view camera on a Wrangler and they're federally required in another year, right? I had to install my own (yes it can be done into the stock screen).

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

Oh crap, hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize they still made cars without power windows???

I wouldn't mind it, except I'm thinking about putting down the rear windows for the kids when we're driving. Hmm...

Wranglers do typically lag behind almost all other vehicles in technology and modern features. The other awesome aspects make up for it but they aren't hi-tech. Still can't even order a rear view camera on a Wrangler and they're federally required in another year, right? I had to install my own (yes it can be done into the stock screen).

I'll want to do that as well. Can you post up or link the details you used for this install?

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

You started out looking at 30 year old jeeps and have moved into waffling on purchasing because they don't have power windows? Well played.

Also lots of jeeps have power windows, 10 years ago not so much but in 2015 pretty easy to find a jeep with power windows.

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

You started out looking at 30 year old jeeps and have moved into waffling on purchasing because they don't have power windows? Well played.

Also lots of jeeps have power windows, 10 years ago not so much but in 2015 pretty easy to find a jeep with power windows.

This started out as a third car/a toy, and has morphed into replacing our second car and need to get kids around in it more frequently. It also started out being about spending 10-15k on a classic, and now we are talking about spending three times that on something brand new. For that, at least give me power windows. I haven't driven or been inside a car without power windows since I was like 6 years old....

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

You started out looking at 30 year old jeeps and have moved into waffling on purchasing because they don't have power windows? Well played.

Also lots of jeeps have power windows, 10 years ago not so much but in 2015 pretty easy to find a jeep with power windows.

This started out as a third car/a toy, and has morphed into replacing our second car and need to get kids around in it more frequently. It also started out being about spending 10-15k on a classic, and now we are talking about spending three times that on something brand new. For that, at least give me power windows. I haven't driven or been inside a car without power windows since I was like 6 years old....

I like the power windows in mine a lot, but the extra step of undoing the electrical relay when I take the doors off is a bit of a pain in the ###. It tucked up in an awkward tight space that is tough to reach (and I'm 5'6"). I slowly looking for another Jeep as a 4th car and hand crank windows is among the things on my list that I want.

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

You started out looking at 30 year old jeeps and have moved into waffling on purchasing because they don't have power windows? Well played.

Also lots of jeeps have power windows, 10 years ago not so much but in 2015 pretty easy to find a jeep with power windows.

This started out as a third car/a toy, and has morphed into replacing our second car and need to get kids around in it more frequently. It also started out being about spending 10-15k on a classic, and now we are talking about spending three times that on something brand new. For that, at least give me power windows. I haven't driven or been inside a car without power windows since I was like 6 years old....

I like the power windows in mine a lot, but the extra step of undoing the electrical relay when I take the doors off is a bit of a pain in the ###. It tucked up in an awkward tight space that is tough to reach (and I'm 5'6"). I slowly looking for another Jeep as a 4th car and hand crank windows is among the things on my list that I want.

Do you have a 4-door and kids? If I didn't, I wouldn't care. But this sounds like a headache.

Just read a post on a jeep forum from a guy who has a 4-door with no power windows or door locks, and he regrets it every day, having to reach back to unlock all the doors and let kids in and out.

Yeah, hell no. I need the basic minimum technologies and conveniences afforded by even the most basic economy cars these days if I'm going to drop 30k+. At a minimum give me power windows and locks, and keyless entry. That's not asking much.

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

Oh crap, hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize they still made cars without power windows???

I wouldn't mind it, except I'm thinking about putting down the rear windows for the kids when we're driving. Hmm...

Wranglers do typically lag behind almost all other vehicles in technology and modern features. The other awesome aspects make up for it but they aren't hi-tech. Still can't even order a rear view camera on a Wrangler and they're federally required in another year, right? I had to install my own (yes it can be done into the stock screen).

I'll want to do that as well. Can you post up or link the details you used for this install?

This is how you do it with the factory head unit with the screen, 430. Have the dealer flash or activate a feature called Park View Rear Camera, code XAC. If you negotiate it as part of your deal they will usually do for free or they may charge a but if you don't. Then get the following parts. The bracket is the important part. I didn't want to drill the bumper or have the camera mounted off at an angle on the license plate frame. This one looks OEM when done.

The bracket is really the important part unless you want to drill the bumper. I used this one...made it real easy:

This is the camera:
Wiring harness:
Coupler:
Or I can arrange to have this done for you. $5,000 seem fair?
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Power windows/doors are definitely common on JKs and not available before that. They add the aforementioned step of having to unplug your doors before removing them, plus they add a good bit of weight to the doors in the form of motors and electronics. Hardly the end of the world, but the doors already have a bit of heft to them when taking on/off. Definitely manageable for an adult male, but the wife may well struggle though.

You should have no trouble finding one with power windows/doors though. I dig my hand crank window, but I totally get the desire for control from the front seat with kids.

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If this is still in stock, I may likely buy it; spoke to a salesman there today, he didn't show me this one, but contacted him about it just now. We'll see.

http://www.easthillsjeep.com/certified/Jeep/2014-Jeep-Wrangler+Unlimited-ddac91d30a0a0065012b8375f916ee58.htm

Not bad...make sure you can live with the manual window cranks...they are notorious on the JK's for digging into legs. By way of comparison you should be able to order that Jeep for about 35k OTD. And on that one they have substituted the steps for the Rock Rails that come with the Willys.

Oh crap, hadn't noticed that. I didn't realize they still made cars without power windows???

I wouldn't mind it, except I'm thinking about putting down the rear windows for the kids when we're driving. Hmm...

Wranglers do typically lag behind almost all other vehicles in technology and modern features. The other awesome aspects make up for it but they aren't hi-tech. Still can't even order a rear view camera on a Wrangler and they're federally required in another year, right? I had to install my own (yes it can be done into the stock screen).
I'll want to do that as well. Can you post up or link the details you used for this install?

This is how you do it with the factory head unit with the screen, 430. Have the dealer flash or activate a feature called Park View Rear Camera, code XAC. If you negotiate it as part of your deal they will usually do for free or they may charge a but if you don't. Then get the following parts. The bracket is the important part. I didn't want to drill the bumper or have the camera mounted off at an angle on the license plate frame. This one looks OEM when done.

The bracket is really the important part unless you want to drill the bumper. I used this one...made it real easy:

http://www.extremeterrain.com/raxiom-camera-spare-mount-rax-jstmount.html

This is the camera:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B2ZD7OS?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Wiring harness:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XBNDY?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Coupler:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002J2DD6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

Or I can arrange to have this done for you. $5,000 seem fair?

Yeah one big perk for jeeps is the aftermarket support is second to none.... There is an endless supply of #### you can do to your vehicle

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Otis, how about a friendly $25 PayPal wager on who pulls the trigger first? I think we are both on the verge. Let's do this!

I'm still waffling. That one above not having power windows is frustrating. Trying to decide how big or small a headache that will be. Then again if the idea is to drive this in nice days and take off the top and put down the windows all the way (and maybe take off the doors in the front at least), then maybe it's not a big deal.

You started out looking at 30 year old jeeps and have moved into waffling on purchasing because they don't have power windows? Well played.

Also lots of jeeps have power windows, 10 years ago not so much but in 2015 pretty easy to find a jeep with power windows.

This started out as a third car/a toy, and has morphed into replacing our second car and need to get kids around in it more frequently. It also started out being about spending 10-15k on a classic, and now we are talking about spending three times that on something brand new. For that, at least give me power windows. I haven't driven or been inside a car without power windows since I was like 6 years old....

I like the power windows in mine a lot, but the extra step of undoing the electrical relay when I take the doors off is a bit of a pain in the ###. It tucked up in an awkward tight space that is tough to reach (and I'm 5'6"). I slowly looking for another Jeep as a 4th car and hand crank windows is among the things on my list that I want.

Do you have a 4-door and kids? If I didn't, I wouldn't care. But this sounds like a headache.

Just read a post on a jeep forum from a guy who has a 4-door with no power windows or door locks, and he regrets it every day, having to reach back to unlock all the doors and let kids in and out.

Yeah, hell no. I need the basic minimum technologies and conveniences afforded by even the most basic economy cars these days if I'm going to drop 30k+. At a minimum give me power windows and locks, and keyless entry. That's not asking much.

Two door & two kids, who both drive the Jeep too, so I am in a different place. But your kids will be small for a short time and then the Jeep will be your toy alone (until you likely give it to one of the kids) We take the doors, freedom panels and the roof off and on all the time. The power window motors make the doors heavier too. I can take them off and on myself, but less weight would be easier.

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Stupid question: what does the Rubicon trim add, and is it worth the extra loot?

Rubicon ads a lot of true off road functionality....

- steeper gearing in axles

- 4:1 gear reduction in transfer case in 4lo (slower crawl rate)

- sway bar disconnects for improved articulation

- selectable lockers in axles for improved traction

- more robust Dana 44 axles

For later models, in general, does Rubicon = better reliability over the long term; or more stuff that can go wrong (or does it even matter)? I am trying to set up a time to take a look at a 2003 Rubicon with 104,XXX miles on it. And an observation, Jeep sellers on Craigslist are TERRIBLE about getting back with potential buyers. AND, once you do get in contact with them, they suddenly don't want to part with their Jeep. I had one guy stand me up and another tell me that they changed their mind and wanted triple what they originally asked.

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Stupid question: what does the Rubicon trim add, and is it worth the extra loot?

Rubicon ads a lot of true off road functionality....

- steeper gearing in axles

- 4:1 gear reduction in transfer case in 4lo (slower crawl rate)

- sway bar disconnects for improved articulation

- selectable lockers in axles for improved traction

- more robust Dana 44 axles

In addition to that list it helps resale

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I've found three not too far away all the black ones with specs I want (i.e,. power technologies that have been available since 1980).

These two look nice:

http://www.smithhaven.com/used/2014-jeep-wrangler_unlimited-altitude-u26699/

http://www.smithhaven.com/used/2010-jeep-wrangler_unlimited-sahara-u26789/ (I recognize this second one is a 2010, which according to icon means the engine is less good, but at $26k I sure do prefer the price).

How do we feel about the gold on this one? I can't tell if I hate it or love it. I certainly will kill that stupid dragon thing on the back:

http://www.smithhaven.com/used/2014-jeep-wrangler_unlimited-dragon_edition-u26423/

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Stupid question: what does the Rubicon trim add, and is it worth the extra loot?

Rubicon ads a lot of true off road functionality....

- steeper gearing in axles

- 4:1 gear reduction in transfer case in 4lo (slower crawl rate)

- sway bar disconnects for improved articulation

- selectable lockers in axles for improved traction

- more robust Dana 44 axles

For later models, in general, does Rubicon = better reliability over the long term; or more stuff that can go wrong (or does it even matter)? I am trying to set up a time to take a look at a 2003 Rubicon with 104,XXX miles on it. And an observation, Jeep sellers on Craigslist are TERRIBLE about getting back with potential buyers. AND, once you do get in contact with them, they suddenly don't want to part with their Jeep. I had one guy stand me up and another tell me that they changed their mind and wanted triple what they originally asked.

The added items listed above are generally very robust and aren't something that can "go wrong". That said, there's nothing that would necessarily make for "better reliability" overall for the vehicle. They add functionality that is very much appreciated when riding on more difficult off road terrain. As stated by Lumpy, it does offer a significant boost to resale value/desirability, however.

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