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So you're suggesting that older players have a lower value in a startup, because there isn't a subset of teams who are "playing for today".

Well, that's the gist of it. More accurately, the teams "playing for today" aren't as dominant as the teams contending in established leagues. Dominant teams can afford more risk on older players.

I can see that on the margin - but in a startup, don't you see teams take different strategies? Some go very young, others go with a mix, and a couple teams pick veterans with the hope of winning immediately? Does everyone really take the same approach? (a bit rhetorical - I doubt everyone takes the same approach)Anyway, interesting sub-topic. Thx for the thoughts F&L.

Teams definitely take different strategies, but drafting a team full of veterans in hopes of winning a startup league is a disastrous strategy. It's not going to be a dominant Dynasty roster.
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.

What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?

Both as a seller or buyer.

It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....

I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
I agree. If the 1st round pick is outside the top 3, then I'd want a Nicks/Maclin type player in return.
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You have been doing this for years. We get it. You think he is a headcase. You also missed the boat. No biggie.

Look, guy, I didn't write the article. Nor am I the beat writer tweeting about the issue. I'm providing relevant information for a much-discussed player. What are you providing here?
No disrespect, but your point and opinion has been heard by the masses, here and on other sites. Yes, marshall has and probably will continue to have some off field problems. I'm just not sure why you continue to drag his name through the mud when he has proven to be better than 99% of the pass-catchers in this league. he presents risk, fine, move on. you sound like steve young at the draft wanting to discuss every players character issues, when all Gruden wants to talk about is FOOTBALL. Edited by jude
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
:banned: For a top three pick I would want the other guy to throw in somebody like Cutler, LeSean McCoy, Pierre Thomas, Jeremy Maclin, or JerMichael Finley.For pick 4-6 I would need a player like Colston, Jennings, Tom Brady, Felix Jones, Knowshon, Greene, or Matt Schaub.For anything later than pick 6 I would basically need a player that I already think is comparable to Wayne because I don't really like any of the rookies available at that spot.
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I'm not hating. What is bizarre is that 4 years after repeatedly lobbying against marshall, f&l is still doing it. Why not just give the guy props for being one of the best receivers in the league instead of dragging out useless article after useless article trying to justify a point tha has been beaten to a pulp on these boards. nah, that would be too easy.

Four years, eh? I'm not lobbying for anything. And I'm certainly not the one who keeps bringing up Marshall's ranking. I have Marshall ranked according to his value to me, and I'm comfortable with that.I posted relevant news articles (feel free to disregard them as "useless") just as I've posted relevant news articles for other players. If you had your head in the sand, there's a fairly big story about Marshall's hip surgery yesterday. For Dynasty leagues, it's germane to the ongoing conversation. Again, I'm comfortable with what I've contributed here. What have you contributed? Edited by Fear & Loathing
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You have been doing this for years. We get it. You think he is a headcase. You also missed the boat. No biggie.

Look, guy, I didn't write the article. Nor am I the beat writer tweeting about the issue. I'm providing relevant information for a much-discussed player. What are you providing here?
No disrespect, but your point and opinion has been heard by the masses, here and on other sites. Yes, marshall has and probably will continue to have some off field problems. I'm just not sure why you continue to drag his name through the mud when he has proven to be better than 99% of the pass-catchers in this league. he presents risk, fine, move on. you sound like steve young at the draft wanting to discuss every players character issues, when all Gruden wants to talk about is FOOTBALL.
This thread is about SPECIFIC player values. The items being discussed on Marshall DO affect his value. If you want basic football chat then go to another thread.You are pretty hard to reach logically. I can't understand why you are still here posting. Move along.
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You have been doing this for years. We get it. You think he is a headcase. You also missed the boat. No biggie.

Look, guy, I didn't write the article. Nor am I the beat writer tweeting about the issue. I'm providing relevant information for a much-discussed player. What are you providing here?
No disrespect, but your point and opinion has been heard by the masses, here and on other sites. Yes, marshall has and probably will continue to have some off field problems. I'm just not sure why you continue to drag his name through the mud when he has proven to be better than 99% of the pass-catchers in this league. he presents risk, fine, move on. you sound like steve young at the draft wanting to discuss every players character issues, when all Gruden wants to talk about is FOOTBALL.
This thread is about SPECIFIC player values. The items being discussed on Marshall DO affect his value. If you want basic football chat then go to another thread.You are pretty hard to reach logically. I can't understand why you are still here posting. Move along.
If you didn't figure out that Marshall was a risky proposition the second he entered the league then you probably need a new hobby.HTH
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No disrespect, but your point and opinion has been heard by the masses, here and on other sites. Yes, marshall has and probably will continue to have some off field problems. I'm just not sure why you continue to drag his name through the mud when he has proven to be better than 99% of the pass-catchers in this league. he presents risk, fine, move on. you sound like steve young at the draft wanting to discuss every players character issues, when all Gruden wants to talk about is FOOTBALL.

So why do you continue to waste your time here then?
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I'm not hating. What is bizarre is that 4 years after repeatedly lobbying against marshall, f&l is still doing it. Why not just give the guy props for being one of the best receivers in the league instead of dragging out useless article after useless article trying to justify a point tha has been beaten to a pulp on these boards. nah, that would be too easy.

Four years, eh? I'm not lobbying for anything. And I'm certainly not the one who keeps bringing up Marshall's ranking. I have Marshall ranked according to his value to me, and I'm comfortable with that.I posted relevant news articles (feel free to disregard them as "useless") just I've posted relevant news articles for other players. If you had your head in the sand, there's a fairly big story about Marshall's hip surgery yesterday. For Dynasty leagues, it's germane to the ongoing conversation. Again, I'm comfortable with what I've contributed here. What have you contributed?
I'm not questioning your contributions. You have done a fine job in the ffootball space over the years. I'll move on.
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You have been doing this for years. We get it. You think he is a headcase. You also missed the boat. No biggie.

Look, guy, I didn't write the article. Nor am I the beat writer tweeting about the issue. I'm providing relevant information for a much-discussed player. What are you providing here?
No disrespect, but your point and opinion has been heard by the masses, here and on other sites. Yes, marshall has and probably will continue to have some off field problems. I'm just not sure why you continue to drag his name through the mud when he has proven to be better than 99% of the pass-catchers in this league. he presents risk, fine, move on. you sound like steve young at the draft wanting to discuss every players character issues, when all Gruden wants to talk about is FOOTBALL.
This thread is about SPECIFIC player values. The items being discussed on Marshall DO affect his value. If you want basic football chat then go to another thread.You are pretty hard to reach logically. I can't understand why you are still here posting. Move along.
If you didn't figure out that Marshall was a risky proposition the second he entered the league then you probably need a new hobby.HTH
So what is your problem? You know he is risky and people are talking about it. Instead of complaining, LEAVE. You are providing nothing valuable and quite annoying.
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
OK - It was the 1.03 & Hines Ward....My thinking was that hopefully in a PPR FORMAT Ward could put up similar #'s to Wayne the next 2 years (a dropoff, but hopefully not substantial) and I needed a young RB (or Bryant, by some miracle if he fell there) to pair with Stewart & Benson (we start 3).I had noticed the same thing as Anthony had regarding the second half of the year (Garcon basically had the same # of targets) with Wayne and there are a LOT of mouths to feed there. I was "happy" with the trade because I thought it helped my team but I think the other guy was happy also (It is a competitive league & there aren't these slamdunk type trades I see posted here). The 1.01 was out of the question (he wouldn't even consider it) & the 1.02 wanted Wayne AND player(s), picks....Just one league but I was trying to show where his value was there right now.
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To be fair to Jude, the Marshall stories did go a bit over the top. The claim that "I'm just trying to provide current news articles" is pretty transparent, as I've been following this thread for a long time and don't ever recall seeing such a barrage of story after story all basically saying the same thing, especially with little "I told you so" comments attached to the end of them.That said, it's perfectly understandable as it did happen at a time right after we were discussing Marshall's off the field stuff and did fall right in line with the point that F&L was originally making. We all like it when we're right and when something like that comes up so soon (even though the jury is far from out on this one) there's no shame in tooting our own horns a bit.Besides, it's F&L's thread and he's put a lot of work into it, so a few "I told you so's" are good for the soul, and sometimes well deserved.That said, it did wreak mildly of "neener neener neener" and I don't think anything Jude said was any more abrasive than about 400 other things that have been said in this thread without getting 18 people jumping down someone's back.

I've about had it with the Brandon Marshall talk. Seriously. And WTF are you talking about with the "I told you so" comments? From where I stand, there certainly seems like there's a contingent on here that would like to continually question his ranking but have no interest in listening to the answer. The issue was already on the table, and I linked to a couple of articles that were relevant to the conversation that was ongoing. Go back a few pages. I was asked specifically about Marshall's ranking, as I have been quite a bit. Before I even answered, a couple of half-wits piped in with their own feelings on the subject. It wasn't me doing the rehashing or dead-horse beating. If the Marshall stories are getting "over the top," perhaps his apologists should quit steering the conversation in that direction.Frankly, this has grown tiresome and pointless. I don't care if you clowns think Marshall is god's gift to football. That's your prerogative. It's my prerogative to think otherwise.
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I think 1.03 and Ward is a pretty good return for Wayne at this point.

I could be alone, but that's a pretty nice deal if the team gettin Wayne becomes a contender with him on board.Personally I'm a little worried about Ward this year, no Ben for at least a month and no Santonio to clear the midlevel routes could lead to a significant dropoff in Ward's production. I'm not sure Ward is as much of an asset as he is a borderline throw in in dynasty leagues.It could be a good deal, but I'd want more for Wayne. Then again it depends how that draft goes. Strange things can happen in drafts, I remember last year there was a guy who was trying like hell to move the 5th pick , he shopped the pick for months and didn't like any of the players who were likely to be available, but he never found a deal he liked. That pick then ended up being Michael Crabtree and now it looks way better. I guess what I'm saying is if that 3rd pick becomes Dez Bryant maybe it will look like a better haul then than it does now. Edited by travdogg
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To be fair to Jude, the Marshall stories did go a bit over the top. The claim that "I'm just trying to provide current news articles" is pretty transparent, as I've been following this thread for a long time and don't ever recall seeing such a barrage of story after story all basically saying the same thing, especially with little "I told you so" comments attached to the end of them.That said, it's perfectly understandable as it did happen at a time right after we were discussing Marshall's off the field stuff and did fall right in line with the point that F&L was originally making. We all like it when we're right and when something like that comes up so soon (even though the jury is far from out on this one) there's no shame in tooting our own horns a bit.Besides, it's F&L's thread and he's put a lot of work into it, so a few "I told you so's" are good for the soul, and sometimes well deserved.That said, it did wreak mildly of "neener neener neener" and I don't think anything Jude said was any more abrasive than about 400 other things that have been said in this thread without getting 18 people jumping down someone's back.

I've about had it with the Brandon Marshall talk. Seriously. And WTF are you talking about with the "I told you so" comments? From where I stand, there certainly seems like there's a contingent on here that would like to continually question his ranking but have no interest in listening to the answer. The issue was already on the table, and I linked to a couple of articles that were relevant to the conversation that was ongoing. Go back a few pages. I was asked specifically about Marshall's ranking, as I have been quite a bit. Before I even answered, a couple of half-wits piped in with their own feelings on the subject. It wasn't me doing the rehashing or dead-horse beating. If the Marshall stories are getting "over the top," perhaps his apologists should quit steering the conversation in that direction.Frankly, this has grown tiresome and pointless. I don't care if you clowns think Marshall is god's gift to football. That's your prerogative. It's my prerogative to think otherwise.
It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion. Seems like lately you talk down to people quite a bit actually. That's grown tiresome, too. And, I know, leave if I don't like it. We get it.
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I think 1.03 and Ward is a pretty good return for Wayne at this point.

I could be alone, but that's a pretty nice deal if the team gettin Wayne becomes a contender with him on board.Personally I'm a little worried about Ward this year, no Ben for at least a month and no Santonio to clear the midlevel routes could lead to a significant dropoff in Ward's production. I'm not sure Ward is as much of an asset as he is a borderline throw in in dynasty leagues.It could be a good deal, but I'd want more for Wayne. Then again it depends how that draft goes. Strange things can happen in drafts, I remember last year there was a guy who was trying like hell to move the 5th pick , he shopped the pick for months and didn't like any of the players who were likely to be available, but he never found a deal he liked. That pick then ended up being Michael Crabtree and now it looks way better. I guess what I'm saying is if that 3rd pick becomes Dez Bryant maybe it will look like a better haul then than it does now.
Hmmm... I think Ward still holds some value. Granted, you're not going to get a top 5 pick for him, but I would think that a "win now" owner in need of a #2/3 WR would at least give a mid-level prospect/late 1st round pick for Ward. I know I would. BTW, this thread is a lot better when you put guys like Jude on ignore.
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense. From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9

PPR

I've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

Edited by Sebowski
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense. From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.
:rolleyes::lmao: :lmao:
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense. From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.
Doesn't mean you need to call people half-wits or clowns.
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

No. But that's a small price to pay. If Grant does very well this year, escalators kick in that would schedule him to make $9 mil next year, so he might have to restructure or switch teams. Pack will draft a RB early next year :lock:
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

No. But that's a small price to pay. If Grant does very well this year, escalators kick in that would schedule him to make $9 mil next year, so he might have to restructure or switch teams. Pack will draft a RB early next year :lock:
I read that before I pulled the trigger. I am hoping they extend him now, or he goes to a team that will feature him. Not common for an "older" RB, but it worked for Thomas Jones twice.
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense. From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.
Doesn't mean you need to call people half-wits or clowns.
Well, now you're changing the argument. Before, it was calling people these names for disagreeing with you. Which is what I said was nonsense. He has an 8,000+ post thread backing up the notion that he is courteous to those that disagree with him. This is like a bunch of kids that poked a dog with a stick till he finally bit. Edited by massraider
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense.

From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?

If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.

Doesn't mean you need to call people half-wits or clowns.
Well, now you're changing the argument. Before, it was calling people these names for disagreeing with you. Which is what I said was nonsense. He has an 8,000+ post thread backing up the notion that he is courteous to those that disagree with him.

This is like a bunch of kids that poked a dog with a stick till he finally bit.

I don't know about the first hundred and whatever pages, but I do know that the tone in here has changed pretty noticeably lately, in my humble opinion.
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This may seem like an odd question, but what are your guy's thoughts on the Jets defense from a dynasty perspective?

Generally, defenses don't hold any value because they're too difficult to predict. But with the Rex Ryan connection, a young shutdown corner, and what we saw of the defense last year, is this Jets defense akin to the Ravens defense from the early 2000's that was reliably dominant from year to year? Because something like that does hold value.

What would people give up for a defense like that in a dynasty league.

Just consider the defense here, not special teams.

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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion.

That's pretty much nonsense.

From where I sit, he's done a fine job explaining his ranking. Some don't want to let it go, which really, is fine too (if tedious). So he responds to them. Because he is repeating the same arguments, now he gets called out for having an axe to grind? What was he supposed to do, make up reasons for the ranking, so he's not repeating himself?

If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.

Doesn't mean you need to call people half-wits or clowns.
Well, now you're changing the argument. Before, it was calling people these names for disagreeing with you. Which is what I said was nonsense. He has an 8,000+ post thread backing up the notion that he is courteous to those that disagree with him.

This is like a bunch of kids that poked a dog with a stick till he finally bit.

I don't know about the first hundred and whatever pages, but I do know that the tone in here has changed pretty noticeably lately, in my humble opinion.

The guy provides some of the best rankings and advice in the business for FREE, and we have a steady influx of Internet Tough Guys coming in here and not just questioning his rankings, but being downright argumentative.

Not only does he provide the rankings, but to anyone with have a brain and a bit of intelligent logic for a productive discussion, he is more than generous enough to elaborate on the rankings, yet the dullards are coming out of the walls to argue about it, so ya, I can't say I blame him for getting a little edgy about things.

Being a writer for Rotoworld, can you imagine the brain-dead drivel which he has to sift through in his Inbox each day? You couldnt pay me enough to do all that he does and still have to put up with the morons, idiots, detractors, and people who simply dont want to think for themselves.

The great thing about FF prognosticators is that there are many of them. Most of them are absolute crap, but to find one who is as good as FnL who takes the time on one of the busiest forums around to openly converse and clarify with his readers is a rare thing indeed.

He comes here of his own volition, so you might want to take that into consideration.

Bite the hand that feeds you enough, and eventually, there will be no more food.

More importantly, how about the one thing Joe Bryant has mandated about these boards? I cant say guys like "Jude" are following it.

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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

No. But that's a small price to pay. If Grant does very well this year, escalators kick in that would schedule him to make $9 mil next year, so he might have to restructure or switch teams. Pack will draft a RB early next year :lock:
Anyone know what those escalators might be?
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I don't know about the first hundred and whatever pages, but I do know that the tone in here has changed pretty noticeably lately, in my humble opinion.

The tone has changed because people have been incessantly berating F&L about his view on Marshall. He keeps patiently restating his position, calmly backing it up. Until finally he's had enough of the silliness, makes 1 or 2 offhand remarks, and now suddenly "the tone has changed." Whatever. We just need folks in here acting like adults. This has been a great thread, free of petty bickering. Back on track:Somebody asked about Ryan Grant's prospects for producing another 2 years. As a Packer fan, I have mixed feelings.Pros:- Grant has been a productive player 2 of the past 3 seasons. - He runs hard, hits the hole with confidence, and gains yardage on most plays- He's a tough player, able to take hits, play through minor injuries- Solid pass blocker, solid receiver (not great in either)- While not quick or shifty, he does have good top-end speed. If he gets through a hole, he can take it to the houseCons:- Not quick or shifty. If he doesn't have blocking, he's not going to make something of nothing- Like Matt Forte, he's not a special talent, and could be replaced anytimeI'm sure there is more to say, I'm too lazy to think of more. :thumbup:
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

No. But that's a small price to pay. If Grant does very well this year, escalators kick in that would schedule him to make $9 mil next year, so he might have to restructure or switch teams. Pack will draft a RB early next year :lock:
Anyone know what those escalators might be?
Found this:

Ryan Grant has escalators in his contract that the Packers likely won't want to pay in 2011.Grant has a roster bonus based on cumulative yardage that could add $2M or $4M to his pay in 2011. For example, if he rushes for 1,253 yards again in 2010, he'd be set to earn $5M in base salary, a $2M roster bonus and another $2M in bonuses he's already scheduled for. As beat writer Pete Dougherty points out, the Packers would probably work out a long-term deal, ask him to take a pay cut or release Grant before paying him $9M in 2011.Source: Green Bay Press-Gazette

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If anything, F&L, if you are getting questions that you've already answered, or you think the conversation isn't going anywhere, then just say it has already been addressed. If people wanna dig up Marshall, let them do a search.

Thank you. This is good advice.
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It's tough to stay above the fray, though, when you refer to people as half-wits and clowns because they disagree with your opinion. Seems like lately you talk down to people quite a bit actually. That's grown tiresome, too. And, I know, leave if I don't like it. We get it.

Yeah, at this point, I don't care to cater to the riff raff. It gets to the point where it's not worth parting with what little free time I have left anymore. Edited by Fear & Loathing
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This may seem like an odd question, but what are your guy's thoughts on the Jets defense from a dynasty perspective?Generally, defenses don't hold any value because they're too difficult to predict. But with the Rex Ryan connection, a young shutdown corner, and what we saw of the defense last year, is this Jets defense akin to the Ravens defense from the early 2000's that was reliably dominant from year to year? Because something like that does hold value.What would people give up for a defense like that in a dynasty league. Just consider the defense here, not special teams.

I wouldn't blame anyone for sending a late 2nd for the Jets defense.... maybe a mid 2nd, depending on how the draft goes. I can't imagine sending anything lower because it's too easy to carry two good defenses and play the match-ups.
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

No. But that's a small price to pay. If Grant does very well this year, escalators kick in that would schedule him to make $9 mil next year, so he might have to restructure or switch teams. Pack will draft a RB early next year :lock:
That's a bargain. Grant is nothing special, but he's one of those guys whose situation has made him a valuable fantasy player. Not much should change this year and anything after that is gravy considering the small price you paid for him.
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I wouldn't mind discussing Vernon Davis if anyone is interested.

Pros:

Young

Talented

Has already shown he can put up monster numbers.

Cons:

He had an unusually high TD total last year. Will be difficult to repeat year in and year out.

Singletary seems committed to the run. Two offensive lineman and a big back added through the draft.

Alex Smith

My leagues only start 1 TE, so they simply don't carry a lot of value. I guess what I'm asking, is if people think Davis is an uberstud or not? I feel that he's a top 5 TE for sure, but top 5 TE's don't win championships. Do you guys feel that Davis will dominate the TE position like Gates once did, or are there just too many good TE's in the league now? Do you think he's a sell, hold, buy low?

Edited by GreatLakesMike
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The bold seems interesting to me. I know that some people like to start 5-10 new dynasty leagues a year, but I still think that the majority of people in any given year are already in a dynasty league and are trying to keep up with relative trade value of players for that league. Add in the fact that even in a startup draft you should be considering trade value a bit, as you do with Wayne, and I think it's clear that most dynasty rankings should be skewed toward trade value than startup value, if they are skewed at all.

I agree with this. The majority of the guys in a startup league already have an established league or six, so they want to keep up with ongoing trade values as much as startup values.

How do I say this without coming off like a doucher? I've also assumed that anyone following this thread or coming to the blog is a contender unless they're taking over for someone else's downtrodden team. If you're putting that much effort into research and running your team, chances are your team is better than the average team.

I don't think there's anything douchey or even controversial about the belief that people who spend more time on their teams are likely to have more success with their teams. That's true in pretty much every walk of life, and fantasy football is no different. What you sow is what you reap.

So you're suggesting that older players have a lower value in a startup, because there isn't a subset of teams who are "playing for today". I can see that on the margin - but in a startup, don't you see teams take different strategies? Some go very young, others go with a mix, and a couple teams pick veterans with the hope of winning immediately? Does everyone really take the same approach? (a bit rhetorical - I doubt everyone takes the same approach)

Anyway, interesting sub-topic. Thx for the thoughts F&L.

A player's value is set by the person who is highest on him. How high a person is on a player depends a lot on team needs. In a startup, every team has the same needs (because no teams have any players). In an established league, however, you get guys with studs serving as depth, or guys with no quality players at a position. The result is that in startups, people tend to look for players without warts, while in established leagues people are more willing to overlook warts because of need.

I agree. If the 1st round pick is outside the top 3, then I'd want a Nicks/Maclin type player in return.

I would never trade Wayne for 1.04 and Nicks or Maclin. I think unproven WRs with upside are the most overrated commodity in dynasty.

Hmmm... I think Ward still holds some value. Granted, you're not going to get a top 5 pick for him, but I would think that a "win now" owner in need of a #2/3 WR would at least give a mid-level prospect/late 1st round pick for Ward. I know I would.

The question isn't whether Ward has value (he does). The question is whether you can get comparable value elsewhere, and how much that value would cost. Personally, I find that productive older WRs who are performing in the WR2-3 range can be had extremely cheaply. I personally bought Donald Driver last offseason for two WRs that I had picked up off the street a week before. Later in the year I acquired some depth at WR that made Driver expendable, so I sold him for a rookie 2nd. Which all seems about right, to me. Ward might be a valuable member of your squad, but I'd put his market value on par with a 2nd round rookie pick. So that trade was essentially 1.03 + 2nd rounder for Wayne. If you're rebuilding, or if you're stacked at WR, or if you're a huge Best fan, then I think that's an okay trade. Otherwise... I'd ask more for Wayne.
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

This gave me a deja vu vibe. Even the same NFL team involved.One of the very good owners in my long-time "Keep-11" league decided in 2003 that the time was ripe for trading Marvin Harrison as he entered his age-31 season. What made the prospect of dealing Harrison away even more enticing was the chance to draft a can't-miss stud receiver at No. 1 overall. He ended up trading Harrison for the 1.1, 3.1, and 5.1 draft picks that year. Of course, the 1.1 ended up being Charles Rodgers. Marvin's fantasy finishes at WR the next four years: 5, 5, 9, 1
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

Grant turns 28 at the end of this season. This year is his 27 year old season. 2011 is 28. 2012 is 29. 2013 is 30. It is possible that he is a #2 FFB RB for 4 more years. I'd feel safe calling him good for 3 more. It seems like he's been around longer than that, and I do think he is the type that falls off a cliff sooner rather than later but he is no older than C.Benson. He is younger than Gore.Something else that hasn't been brought up is how well he protects the ball. 1 fumble lost last year. 3 the year before (and pretty banged up that year.) 1 lost the year before that. He is the guy that gets you yards, doesn't hurt the offense by turning it over or losing yardage and is fairly effective at the goal line. Not special, just Rudi-ish. Keep on keepin' on.
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The question isn't whether Ward has value (he does). The question is whether you can get comparable value elsewhere, and how much that value would cost. Personally, I find that productive older WRs who are performing in the WR2-3 range can be had extremely cheaply. I personally bought Donald Driver last offseason for two WRs that I had picked up off the street a week before. Later in the year I acquired some depth at WR that made Driver expendable, so I sold him for a rookie 2nd. Which all seems about right, to me. Ward might be a valuable member of your squad, but I'd put his market value on par with a 2nd round rookie pick. So that trade was essentially 1.03 + 2nd rounder for Wayne. If you're rebuilding, or if you're stacked at WR, or if you're a huge Best fan, then I think that's an okay trade. Otherwise... I'd ask more for Wayne.

Good post. Sometimes I don't convey my message clearly.

I routinely carry 30+ year old receivers on my squads because their price is next to nothing. Acquiring Mason, Driver, Coles (going back a few) has allowed me to build elsewhere. I can't argue with placing Ward's value as a 2nd round pick. Like I said, if I'm trying to win, I'd give up a late 1st. People often ask for opinions and values on players, and the way I look at it, is that if the value is in the ballpark, then by all means, go for it. I'm a Best fan, so the Wayne offer would be tempting.

Edited by GreatLakesMike
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You guys think Ryan Grant has two years of RB2 in him? I just traded for him. Gave Avery, L.Washington and 2.9 PPRI've never been a Ryan Grant fan, but I needed a RB that was guaranteed carries, and I love the GB offense.

Grant turns 28 at the end of this season. This year is his 27 year old season. 2011 is 28. 2012 is 29. 2013 is 30. It is possible that he is a #2 FFB RB for 4 more years. I'd feel safe calling him good for 3 more. It seems like he's been around longer than that, and I do think he is the type that falls off a cliff sooner rather than later but he is no older than C.Benson. He is younger than Gore.Something else that hasn't been brought up is how well he protects the ball. 1 fumble lost last year. 3 the year before (and pretty banged up that year.) 1 lost the year before that. He is the guy that gets you yards, doesn't hurt the offense by turning it over or losing yardage and is fairly effective at the goal line. Not special, just Rudi-ish. Keep on keepin' on.
Thanks. He might be the perfect addition to my backfield of Mendy, T.Jones, Portis, M.Bush. (start 1-2). Hold the line while either Bush becomes startable or I can find another guy.
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This may seem like an odd question, but what are your guy's thoughts on the Jets defense from a dynasty perspective?Generally, defenses don't hold any value because they're too difficult to predict. But with the Rex Ryan connection, a young shutdown corner, and what we saw of the defense last year, is this Jets defense akin to the Ravens defense from the early 2000's that was reliably dominant from year to year? Because something like that does hold value.What would people give up for a defense like that in a dynasty league. Just consider the defense here, not special teams.

I added them on the cheap IMO before our rookie draft for a 2011 3rd rounder. Seem crazy to send a pick for a DEF but i think i have a team ready to make a serious run andshould have just gave myself some advatanges and any and every advantage counts. Even if its a few points.
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This may seem like an odd question, but what are your guy's thoughts on the Jets defense from a dynasty perspective?Generally, defenses don't hold any value because they're too difficult to predict. But with the Rex Ryan connection, a young shutdown corner, and what we saw of the defense last year, is this Jets defense akin to the Ravens defense from the early 2000's that was reliably dominant from year to year? Because something like that does hold value.What would people give up for a defense like that in a dynasty league. Just consider the defense here, not special teams.

I added them on the cheap IMO before our rookie draft for a 2011 3rd rounder. Seem crazy to send a pick for a DEF but i think i have a team ready to make a serious run andshould have just gave myself some advatanges and any and every advantage counts. Even if its a few points.
Too unpredictable. If I could bet my house on the Jets D or the field, I'd take the field. Too hard know how Ds will play. Granted a 2011 3rd rounder is much to give up. I think more important is for you to make sure you have the roster flexiblity to have two Ds you can rotate and you pick up the hot defense each week. Do a schedule analysis and figure out who is playing CLE, STL, and other bad teams. If you think it through, I bet you can lineup a string of 2-3 defenses that will outperform the Jets.
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The question isn't whether Ward has value (he does). The question is whether you can get comparable value elsewhere, and how much that value would cost. Personally, I find that productive older WRs who are performing in the WR2-3 range can be had extremely cheaply. I personally bought Donald Driver last offseason for two WRs that I had picked up off the street a week before. Later in the year I acquired some depth at WR that made Driver expendable, so I sold him for a rookie 2nd. Which all seems about right, to me. Ward might be a valuable member of your squad, but I'd put his market value on par with a 2nd round rookie pick. So that trade was essentially 1.03 + 2nd rounder for Wayne. If you're rebuilding, or if you're stacked at WR, or if you're a huge Best fan, then I think that's an okay trade. Otherwise... I'd ask more for Wayne.

Good post. Sometimes I don't convey my message clearly.

I routinely carry 30+ year old receivers on my squads because their price is next to nothing. Acquiring Mason, Driver, Coles (going back a few) has allowed me to build elsewhere. I can't argue with placing Ward's value as a 2nd round pick. Like I said, if I'm trying to win, I'd give up a late 1st. People often ask for opinions and values on players, and the way I look at it, is that if the value is in the ballpark, then by all means, go for it. I'm a Best fan, so the Wayne offer would be tempting.

I absolutely hate late firsts. In my dynasty league, we're going into our 4th rookie draft, and I've never used a draft pick lower than 1.03 (drafted Lynch with 1.03, JStew with 1.03, and Moreno with 1.01). I currently own the 1.04, and am looking to move up one slot into the top 3 again this year, too. Anything outside of the top 3 is a pick I simply don't care about and have little-to-no interest in executing. With that background in place... there is no situation imaginable where I would ever spend a 1st round pick on Hines Ward... and I *HATE* late firsts! Why on earth would anyone spend such a valuable trade chip on such a fungible commodity? I like Ward, but he's going to give you 2 to 3 years of low-end WR2 to high-end WR3 production. You'd be better off taking that late first and trading it for a far more valuable commodity, instead.

Even if you're a big Best fan, I find Wayne for Best and Ward a bit tough to swallow.

This may seem like an odd question, but what are your guy's thoughts on the Jets defense from a dynasty perspective?

Generally, defenses don't hold any value because they're too difficult to predict. But with the Rex Ryan connection, a young shutdown corner, and what we saw of the defense last year, is this Jets defense akin to the Ravens defense from the early 2000's that was reliably dominant from year to year? Because something like that does hold value.

What would people give up for a defense like that in a dynasty league.

Just consider the defense here, not special teams.

I added them on the cheap IMO before our rookie draft for a 2011 3rd rounder.

Seem crazy to send a pick for a DEF but i think i have a team ready to make a serious run and

should have just gave myself some advatanges and any and every advantage counts. Even if its a few points.

I think a 3rd rounder is pretty much what a solid defense is worth. Edited by SSOG
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
OK - It was the 1.03 & Hines Ward....My thinking was that hopefully in a PPR FORMAT Ward could put up similar #'s to Wayne the next 2 years (a dropoff, but hopefully not substantial) and I needed a young RB (or Bryant, by some miracle if he fell there) to pair with Stewart & Benson (we start 3).I had noticed the same thing as Anthony had regarding the second half of the year (Garcon basically had the same # of targets) with Wayne and there are a LOT of mouths to feed there. I was "happy" with the trade because I thought it helped my team but I think the other guy was happy also (It is a competitive league & there aren't these slamdunk type trades I see posted here). The 1.01 was out of the question (he wouldn't even consider it) & the 1.02 wanted Wayne AND player(s), picks....Just one league but I was trying to show where his value was there right now.
Deriving fair market value can be tricky, and is sometimes unique to each individual league. My 12 team dynasty PPR league is in its second year, and there were trades taking place during the rookie draft ( 4 rounds) that sort of began to define the market place. The trades were showing crazy valuations indicative of a very free market.On draft day, Shonn Greene was traded for the 2010 1.05 pick and then 1.05 pick then was used to pick up Dez Bryant. Then Dez Bryant was traded for a 2011 1st and 2nd rounder.Ben Roethlisberger was traded for the 1.07 pick and 3.02 pick in the 2010 draft.Robert Meachum was traded for the 2010 2.10 and 3.03 rookie draft picks.The 2.04 2010 rookie draft pick was traded for a 2011 2nd and 3rd round rookie pick, only to be spent on Legarette Blounte.Days ater the draft trades continued: Dwayne Bowe was traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft and Colt McCoy.Colt McCoy was then traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft.Sam Bradford was traded for Chaz Schilens and Kevin Smith.My league's market place is all over the map. Clearly, value is subjective and with two willing participants, there is no telling what kind of trades can be made.
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Late 1st round picks simply aren't worth much in my leagues. If I'm trying to win and need a WR, then I make the trade for Ward. I also play in PPR leagues, and Ward was the #12 WR last year. I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't see late 1sts, especially this year, as a valuable trade chip.

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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
OK - It was the 1.03 & Hines Ward....My thinking was that hopefully in a PPR FORMAT Ward could put up similar #'s to Wayne the next 2 years (a dropoff, but hopefully not substantial) and I needed a young RB (or Bryant, by some miracle if he fell there) to pair with Stewart & Benson (we start 3).I had noticed the same thing as Anthony had regarding the second half of the year (Garcon basically had the same # of targets) with Wayne and there are a LOT of mouths to feed there. I was "happy" with the trade because I thought it helped my team but I think the other guy was happy also (It is a competitive league & there aren't these slamdunk type trades I see posted here). The 1.01 was out of the question (he wouldn't even consider it) & the 1.02 wanted Wayne AND player(s), picks....Just one league but I was trying to show where his value was there right now.
Deriving fair market value can be tricky, and is sometimes unique to each individual league. My 12 team dynasty PPR league is in its second year, and there were trades taking place during the rookie draft ( 4 rounds) that sort of began to define the market place. The trades were showing crazy valuations indicative of a very free market.On draft day, Shonn Greene was traded for the 2010 1.05 pick and then 1.05 pick then was used to pick up Dez Bryant. Then Dez Bryant was traded for a 2011 1st and 2nd rounder.Ben Roethlisberger was traded for the 1.07 pick and 3.02 pick in the 2010 draft.Robert Meachum was traded for the 2010 2.10 and 3.03 rookie draft picks.The 2.04 2010 rookie draft pick was traded for a 2011 2nd and 3rd round rookie pick, only to be spent on Legarette Blounte.Days ater the draft trades continued: Dwayne Bowe was traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft and Colt McCoy.Colt McCoy was then traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft.Sam Bradford was traded for Chaz Schilens and Kevin Smith.My league's market place is all over the map. Clearly, value is subjective and with two willing participants, there is no telling what kind of trades can be made.
I will never understand trading Dez for just a future first and second, where the best you could hope for is...Dez...and that is IF the pick turns out to be high. People are really overvaluing those future firsts...and I am one who likes to have them.
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On the Wayne VALUE subject, I ended up trading him for a 2010 First RD Pick & a player.What # pick & type of player (It's a PPR DYNASTY) would you guys consider "fair" value for Wayne?Both as a seller or buyer.It is a first year league & I'd say my team is a mix of contending/young....I'll state what I GOT later (don't want this to turn into what I should have done, etc...), but more what you all perceive WAYNES' value to be compared to this years rookie class.

If it wasn't a top 3 pick, then I would not do it unless the other player was a top prospect.
OK - It was the 1.03 & Hines Ward....My thinking was that hopefully in a PPR FORMAT Ward could put up similar #'s to Wayne the next 2 years (a dropoff, but hopefully not substantial) and I needed a young RB (or Bryant, by some miracle if he fell there) to pair with Stewart & Benson (we start 3).I had noticed the same thing as Anthony had regarding the second half of the year (Garcon basically had the same # of targets) with Wayne and there are a LOT of mouths to feed there. I was "happy" with the trade because I thought it helped my team but I think the other guy was happy also (It is a competitive league & there aren't these slamdunk type trades I see posted here). The 1.01 was out of the question (he wouldn't even consider it) & the 1.02 wanted Wayne AND player(s), picks....Just one league but I was trying to show where his value was there right now.
Deriving fair market value can be tricky, and is sometimes unique to each individual league. My 12 team dynasty PPR league is in its second year, and there were trades taking place during the rookie draft ( 4 rounds) that sort of began to define the market place. The trades were showing crazy valuations indicative of a very free market.On draft day, Shonn Greene was traded for the 2010 1.05 pick and then 1.05 pick then was used to pick up Dez Bryant. Then Dez Bryant was traded for a 2011 1st and 2nd rounder.Ben Roethlisberger was traded for the 1.07 pick and 3.02 pick in the 2010 draft.Robert Meachum was traded for the 2010 2.10 and 3.03 rookie draft picks.The 2.04 2010 rookie draft pick was traded for a 2011 2nd and 3rd round rookie pick, only to be spent on Legarette Blounte.Days ater the draft trades continued: Dwayne Bowe was traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft and Colt McCoy.Colt McCoy was then traded for a 1st round pick in the 2011 rookie draft.Sam Bradford was traded for Chaz Schilens and Kevin Smith.My league's market place is all over the map. Clearly, value is subjective and with two willing participants, there is no telling what kind of trades can be made.
I will never understand trading Dez for just a future first and second, where the best you could hope for is...Dez...and that is IF the pick turns out to be high. People are really overvaluing those future firsts...and I am one who likes to have them.
I hear ya on Dez Bryant. To be honest, we were shocked he fell to 1.05. I think that is why the guy who drafted him traded Shonn Greene to move up to get him - as there was agreement that Bryant is a VERY SPECIAL talent. But the guy who moved up to get him already had Fitzgerald, B. Marshall, H. Nicks, J. Maclin. He then grabbed A. Benn with his own 1st. Clearly, he embraced the opportunity of being able to get Dez Bryant for Shonn Greene, but I also think he sold low for an as yet to be determined 1st and 2nd rounder next year. Especially since our league is PPR. He likely could have gotten more in player trades - but he also tends to put a premium on future high draft picks. But that is what the point of my reply was...Human Action creates free markets that show a great deal of subjectivity.Based on that trade of Dez Bryant for a 2011 1st and 2nd, a market price was sort of set...which led to the Bowe trade later on where Bowe went for a 2011 1st and Colt McCoy.
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The question isn't whether Ward has value (he does). The question is whether you can get comparable value elsewhere, and how much that value would cost. Personally, I find that productive older WRs who are performing in the WR2-3 range can be had extremely cheaply. I personally bought Donald Driver last offseason for two WRs that I had picked up off the street a week before. Later in the year I acquired some depth at WR that made Driver expendable, so I sold him for a rookie 2nd. Which all seems about right, to me. Ward might be a valuable member of your squad, but I'd put his market value on par with a 2nd round rookie pick. So that trade was essentially 1.03 + 2nd rounder for Wayne. If you're rebuilding, or if you're stacked at WR, or if you're a huge Best fan, then I think that's an okay trade. Otherwise... I'd ask more for Wayne.

Good post. Sometimes I don't convey my message clearly.

I routinely carry 30+ year old receivers on my squads because their price is next to nothing. Acquiring Mason, Driver, Coles (going back a few) has allowed me to build elsewhere. I can't argue with placing Ward's value as a 2nd round pick. Like I said, if I'm trying to win, I'd give up a late 1st. People often ask for opinions and values on players, and the way I look at it, is that if the value is in the ballpark, then by all means, go for it. I'm a Best fan, so the Wayne offer would be tempting.

I think that's a great strategy and one I'm looking to begin implementing in my leagues. Once players are "over the hill", they are scrapped as refuse in the minds of most dynasty owners. That's a great time to get alot of aging players that still will be fantasy producers for 3-4 years. Hines Ward has been viewed as "old" for a long time. He's still out there producing. He can be had for peanuts right now.
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