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Dynasty Rankings (4 Viewers)

Harvin is a luxury WR3 at this point. I wouldn't count on him as anything more than that. Just like Gronk. Just too much missed time. Too many dings. Not reliable. Bank on these guys at your own peril.

He's a truly transcendant player (Just like Gronk who I think was better than Graham). But these guys just can't be cornerstones. But they can be used for the specific goal of pushing you team over the top.

Used as a luxury he might pay huge dividends in the playoffs. Then again he might not. But you better have your team depth be such that you don't need to count on Harvin (or Gronk) to get into the playoffs. Once there, you might get him for a game or maybe not. If you do get to use him, your whole team improves because you take maybe your 7th best starter

 
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OK- I've been trying to wrap my head around the ranking of Percy Harvin for several days now. Guy's been 5 years in the league and never broken 1000 yards. He has one top ten finish in his career, and that was in a year he got a ridiculous number of carries (not likely to ever see that again). His team just spent two relatively high picks on WR's, yet he's #12 for FBG's rankings post draft, and a lot of people seem to value him as a sure-fire fantasy WR1.

The guy has a ton of talent, and I certainly wouldn't be shocked to see him put up a top 10 year, but it seems really silly to value him as a WR1 at this point- TY Hilton, Garcon, and Torrey Smith all have 100 yard seasons and are ranked far behind him.

FIVE seasons- ZERO 1000 yard seasons- NOT a fantasy WR1. Am I missing something??????
My biggest pet peeve is this "never hit 1000 yards" myth. Does your league not reward rushing yards? Dude had 1300 yards in 2011. You say the rushing numbers are ridiculous, but they aren't. Harvin was an RB in college. He already owns the NFL record for career rushing yards by a WR. His first two offensive touches in the superbowl were both rushing plays. The dude runs the ball. It's not a fluke, it's a substantial portion of his value.

Another way to look at it is to look at Harvin's first four years in the league. He ranked 25th, 20th, 7th, and then at the time of his injury he was 2nd or 3rd. And that's in standard. In his last 16 games in Minnesota, he had 112 receptions, 1492 yards, and 11 offensive touchdowns (plus one more kickoff return touchdown). That's the career arc of a stud. Seattle traded huge draft value to acquire him and then gave him a $60m contract, which means they sure as heck think he's a stud.

 
Where you rank Harvin depends on how much you personally weigh the "injury proneness" risk, and he's been hurt for a while now. I don't put a ton of weight on my ability to predict injury, so IMO FBG's WR12 ranking is actually too low.
As the guy who's been getting guff for having Percy Harvin in my "big 6" for the past year+ (Calvin, Green, Julio, Dez, Demaryius, Harvin), obviously I agree.

In fact, having Harvin in my "top tier" and keeping Gordon out of it are probably the two rankings I've taken the most flak for since the end of the season. My contention that people weren't properly pricing suspension risk is looking pretty good right now. Hopefully in a year, my contention that people are over-pricing injury risk will look just as good.

 
Where you rank Harvin depends on how much you personally weigh the "injury proneness" risk, and he's been hurt for a while now. I don't put a ton of weight on my ability to predict injury, so IMO FBG's WR12 ranking is actually too low.
As the guy who's been getting guff for having Percy Harvin in my "big 6" for the past year+ (Calvin, Green, Julio, Dez, Demaryius, Harvin), obviously I agree.

In fact, having Harvin in my "top tier" and keeping Gordon out of it are probably the two rankings I've taken the most flak for since the end of the season. My contention that people weren't properly pricing suspension risk is looking pretty good right now. Hopefully in a year, my contention that people are over-pricing injury risk will look just as good.
Migraines, concussions(even last year), hip surgery, ankle injury.

Harbin is one tough player that finishes plays like a rb. However, his frame can't take that. Therefore, if you don't calculate injury risk into rankings, you're doing yourself a disservice.

 
If you take a longer view, Percy Harvin's career arc is pretty much exactly what you would expect to see from a dominant stud.

Age 17- dominates the competition as a high-school senior, named the #1 recruit in the entire nation

Age 18- biggest offensive weapon on a national championship team as a true freshman

Age 19-20- Puts up 1600/10 and 1300/17 in 11 and 12 games, respectively. Wins a second national championship. Is generally acknowledged as the best offensive player on a team that featured a Heisman Trophy winner at QB.

Age 21- drafted in the first round. Puts up 925 yards and 6 TDs in 15 games. Named ORoY.

Age 22- 975/6 in 14 games despite his team collapsing around him. Top-20 fantasy WR despite missing two games.

Age 23- 1300/8. WR7. Please note that Harvin's age-23 production was better than Green's (65/1057/7), Dez's (63/928/9), Julio's (79/1198/10), or Keenan Allen's (71/1046/8). People look strictly at years in the league and ignore age. Percy Harvin was MILES ahead in his development at age 23 than most of the slam-dunk studs.

Age 24- #1 WR in fantasy through the first half of the season. Garnering serious support as an MVP candidate. Considered the best offensive player on a team that featured Adrian Peterson at RB.

Age 25- Traded (to a team that's usually pretty savvy at identifying talent) for a 1st, 3rd, and 7th. Signed to a 6-year, $67m contract.

What about that career arc suggests Harvin is on anything except the fast track to uberstudhood? The injuries throw a wrench into the mix, but he played in 54 out of his first 57 games, and most of his early-season concerns were related to a migraine issue that has since been resolved (it was sleep apnea). Ignoring the injuries, though, Harvin profiles like an unstoppable fantasy force who is being underrated because he was *SO* dominant that he entered the league at 21 instead of 23.

 
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Where you rank Harvin depends on how much you personally weigh the "injury proneness" risk, and he's been hurt for a while now. I don't put a ton of weight on my ability to predict injury, so IMO FBG's WR12 ranking is actually too low.
As the guy who's been getting guff for having Percy Harvin in my "big 6" for the past year+ (Calvin, Green, Julio, Dez, Demaryius, Harvin), obviously I agree.

In fact, having Harvin in my "top tier" and keeping Gordon out of it are probably the two rankings I've taken the most flak for since the end of the season. My contention that people weren't properly pricing suspension risk is looking pretty good right now. Hopefully in a year, my contention that people are over-pricing injury risk will look just as good.
Migraines, concussions(even last year), hip surgery, ankle injury.

Harbin is one tough player that finishes plays like a rb. However, his frame can't take that. Therefore, if you don't calculate injury risk into rankings, you're doing yourself a disservice.
Migraine issue is solved. Harvin hasn't had one in years. It was sleep apnea.

The ankle injury and hip injury strike me as non-predictive events. I don't attach much weight to non-predictive events. You say it's doing myself a disservice, but I certainly didn't feel like I was doing myself a disservice when I picked up Jamaal Charles and Adrian Peterson coming off of major injuries, and I don't feel like I've done myself a disservice by buying Julio Jones and Percy Harvin last year. We'll see how it plays out, but in general, my belief that injury concerns are dramatically overpriced has paid solid dividends.

 
Was this WR class deep, or is the fact that the NFL needs more WRs, and drafts accordingly, the reason we feel so?
A lot of the "deepest WR class" stuff was happening before the draft. Also, iirc, the objective models guys (wdcrob, Chad Parsons, etc) have all praised the depth of this class, too.

 
Was this WR class deep, or is the fact that the NFL needs more WRs, and drafts accordingly, the reason we feel so?
A lot of the "deepest WR class" stuff was happening before the draft. Also, iirc, the objective models guys (wdcrob, Chad Parsons, etc) have all praised the depth of this class, too.
Good point. And perhaps is it deeper than most, but I think we're going to continue seeing WRs drafted in the first 2 rounds and a high rate. Teams wan't difference makers across the board, rather than be content with one as their top guy. Look at the resources that teams are pouring into the WR position (and pass catching TEs).

The WR position was the richest before this draft, which saw 12 players go in the first 2 rounds. Is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the market is being flooded?

 
Harvin is a guy who will carry your team to about 3-5 fantasy wins, then will get hurt just in time to watch your team stutter to a narrow playoff miss and crappy draft slot the following year.

 
And I don't mean suggest taking Sankey, Hill, Hyde, or Mason over Watkins, Cooks, or Evans. But I think grabbing them over Beckham, Benjamin, Lee (etc.) might be the play. This time next year there are going to be A LOT of discount sophmore WRs to target.

 
Harvin is a guy who will carry your team to about 3-5 fantasy wins, then will get hurt just in time to watch your team stutter to a narrow playoff miss and crappy draft slot the following year.
Only if you assume that blanket time missed is an indicator of future time missed. There are valid concerns, but when you look at his injury history by each individual occurrence, it is a lot less damning that looking at it as a blanket number of games missed.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?

 
Was this WR class deep, or is the fact that the NFL needs more WRs, and drafts accordingly, the reason we feel so?
A lot of the "deepest WR class" stuff was happening before the draft. Also, iirc, the objective models guys (wdcrob, Chad Parsons, etc) have all praised the depth of this class, too.
Good point. And perhaps is it deeper than most, but I think we're going to continue seeing WRs drafted in the first 2 rounds and a high rate. Teams wan't difference makers across the board, rather than be content with one as their top guy. Look at the resources that teams are pouring into the WR position (and pass catching TEs).

The WR position was the richest before this draft, which saw 12 players go in the first 2 rounds. Is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the market is being flooded?
Nah, the move is to stockpile as much talent as you can and then use trades to rebalance your roster and address needs.

Put it this way- would you rather have devoted significant draft resources to grabbing RBs in 2008, the deepest RB draft in history, or in 2009-2012, one of the weakest periods of RB prospects we've ever seen? If a draft is loaded at a position, the shark move is not "ignore that position in favor of another one where it was demonstrably weaker".

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.
I saw an ESPN commentator go on and on about Gordon squandering all this money. And I think that's kind of missing the point. When Gordon's career is over, it's not the money he's going to miss most. It's all that greatness that could have been.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.
I saw an ESPN commentator go on and on about Gordon squandering all this money. And I think that's kind of missing the point. When Gordon's career is over, it's not the money he's going to miss most. It's all that greatness that could have been.
Given the somewhat similar issue that is facing Blackmon. (yes I know tomato/tomato, potato/french fry.)

Do we have to start factoring in character concern, and at the 1st signs of smoke, at least consider selling?

Maybe start classing players tier 1 - talent , but if they are tier 2 character and perhaps tier 2 injury prone, try to move that player based on their talent tier.

Makes sense in a vacuum, practically, things are too much of a crapshoot to attempt to properly quantify these tiers though.

Will have to ponder this moving forward.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
I've known addicts personally and I'm familiar with the literature. The odds of Gordon getting and staying clean are not great. The odds of him doing so without a single relapse are miniscule.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.
I saw an ESPN commentator go on and on about Gordon squandering all this money. And I think that's kind of missing the point. When Gordon's career is over, it's not the money he's going to miss most. It's all that greatness that could have been.
Given the somewhat similar issue that is facing Blackmon. (yes I know tomato/tomato, potato/french fry.)

Do we have to start factoring in character concern, and at the 1st signs of smoke, at least consider selling?

Maybe start classing players tier 1 - talent , but if they are tier 2 character and perhaps tier 2 injury prone, try to move that player based on their talent tier.

Makes sense in a vacuum, practically, things are too much of a crapshoot to attempt to properly quantify these tiers though.

Will have to ponder this moving forward.
I'm a big proponent of "pricing risk". Basically, you need to clarify the differences between expectations and expected value. Expectations are what you think are the most likely outcome. Expected value is the average of all possible outcomes weighted by likelihood. So yes, if someone presents with an additional risk, you need to objectively evaluate that risk and price it appropriately.

At the same time, we need to be smart about the "objectively evaluate the risk" phase, too. Most people who use drugs are not addicted to drugs. If a guy fails a single drug test, then that should increase our estimated chances that he's an addict, but by far the most likely explanation remains that he is not. It's not until we start getting multiple failed tests (especially in a short period of time) that the preponderance of the evidence begins to point to addiction rather than recreation. Josh Gordon wasn't a risky buy because of his suspension last season, he was a risky buy because of his suspension *IN ADDITION TO* the multiple failed tests in college that resulted in him transferring out of one program, never playing a down for a second program, and entering the league through the supplemental draft process. Likewise, Justin Blackmon's pre-draft alcohol problems should have raised some eyebrows (especially just how far above the legal limit he was on his last DUI- it was truly Herculean, iirc), but suspicions shouldn't have reached full alert until he added that NFL suspension to the rap sheet. After all, plenty of other players have had DUIs with nothing coming from it. Vincent Jackson had a pair of DUIs (and a "holdout" that wasn't actually a holdout since he wasn't under contract), and I was arguing to the hills that he wasn't a character risk. At the same time, I wrote an article during the middle of Blackmon's hot streak arguing that his owners should sell him quickly at his current market value. Not all risks are created equally.

Injury risks are one of those risks that I don't think are created equally. I think a lot of the "injury prone" talk results from the fact that random is random, and often streaky (while still remaining truly random). If injuries were randomly distributed, we should EXPECT to see some players accumulating a couple in short succession. We should also expect that those players are no more likely to accumulate any more going forward. Nevertheless, the human mind is built to discern patterns and is very proficient at the task, often finding patterns where none truly exists. As a result, it tends to over-price the injury risk in previously-injured players (and, simultaneously, under-price the injury risk in previously-healthy players). There are a few situations where a player is at a legitimately heightened risk for future injury (Danario Alexander comes to mind, and that's not hindsight bias- I called him injury prone before he tore his ACL again last offseason), but for the most part, Doug Drinen had it right a decade ago when he said that EVERYONE is an injury risk.

So... yes, we should be pricing risk profiles into player value, but it's not as easy as just making blanket declarations about which players are "risky" and which are "safe". Everyone is risky, and it's up to us to quantify that risk and apply it fairly to each player's value.

 
Likewise, Justin Blackmon's pre-draft alcohol problems should have raised some eyebrows (especially just how far above the legal limit he was on his last DUI- it was truly Herculean, iirc), but suspicions shouldn't have reached full alert until he added that NFL suspension to the rap sheet.
I was blinded by Blackmon's talent (took him 1.2 ahead of Doug Martin) so when he blew a .24 I shrugged it off. In hindsight it should have been a gigantic red flag that he is an alcoholic and he'd be unlikely to pass 10 tests a month.

While I did sell him in one league last offseason, I still hadn't priced in his true risk. Was lucky to sell him in another league for Austin a couple months ago.

 
Nah, the move is to stockpile as much talent as you can and then use trades to rebalance your roster and address needs.
Put it this way- would you rather have devoted significant draft resources to grabbing RBs in 2008, the deepest RB draft in history, or in 2009-2012, one of the weakest periods of RB prospects we've ever seen? If a draft is loaded at a position, the shark move is not "ignore that position in favor of another one where it was demonstrably weaker".
Talent is so subjective. Is Beckham more talented than his teammate Hill? Hyde? Lacy? Bell? Ball? Is Julio more talented than McCoy? I am going with a big "NO!", but the "talent" crowd is likely to drool over Julio and take him.

Where a clear advantage exists--of course always side with the talent. But there seems to be the notion that the average WR is more taletned than the average RB. That's imply not true, and even if we assumed it were, we'd have to adjust how we value talent. Supply and demand would eventually dictate it.

So, I'll again pose with additional context; where talent is close, is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the WR market is being flooded?

 
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I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.
I saw an ESPN commentator go on and on about Gordon squandering all this money. And I think that's kind of missing the point. When Gordon's career is over, it's not the money he's going to miss most. It's all that greatness that could have been.
Given the somewhat similar issue that is facing Blackmon. (yes I know tomato/tomato, potato/french fry.)

Do we have to start factoring in character concern, and at the 1st signs of smoke, at least consider selling?

Maybe start classing players tier 1 - talent , but if they are tier 2 character and perhaps tier 2 injury prone, try to move that player based on their talent tier.

Makes sense in a vacuum, practically, things are too much of a crapshoot to attempt to properly quantify these tiers though.

Will have to ponder this moving forward.
I'm a big proponent of "pricing risk". Basically, you need to clarify the differences between expectations and expected value. Expectations are what you think are the most likely outcome. Expected value is the average of all possible outcomes weighted by likelihood. So yes, if someone presents with an additional risk, you need to objectively evaluate that risk and price it appropriately.

At the same time, we need to be smart about the "objectively evaluate the risk" phase, too. Most people who use drugs are not addicted to drugs. If a guy fails a single drug test, then that should increase our estimated chances that he's an addict, but by far the most likely explanation remains that he is not. It's not until we start getting multiple failed tests (especially in a short period of time) that the preponderance of the evidence begins to point to addiction rather than recreation. Josh Gordon wasn't a risky buy because of his suspension last season, he was a risky buy because of his suspension *IN ADDITION TO* the multiple failed tests in college that resulted in him transferring out of one program, never playing a down for a second program, and entering the league through the supplemental draft process. Likewise, Justin Blackmon's pre-draft alcohol problems should have raised some eyebrows (especially just how far above the legal limit he was on his last DUI- it was truly Herculean, iirc), but suspicions shouldn't have reached full alert until he added that NFL suspension to the rap sheet. After all, plenty of other players have had DUIs with nothing coming from it. Vincent Jackson had a pair of DUIs (and a "holdout" that wasn't actually a holdout since he wasn't under contract), and I was arguing to the hills that he wasn't a character risk. At the same time, I wrote an article during the middle of Blackmon's hot streak arguing that his owners should sell him quickly at his current market value. Not all risks are created equally.

Injury risks are one of those risks that I don't think are created equally. I think a lot of the "injury prone" talk results from the fact that random is random, and often streaky (while still remaining truly random). If injuries were randomly distributed, we should EXPECT to see some players accumulating a couple in short succession. We should also expect that those players are no more likely to accumulate any more going forward. Nevertheless, the human mind is built to discern patterns and is very proficient at the task, often finding patterns where none truly exists. As a result, it tends to over-price the injury risk in previously-injured players (and, simultaneously, under-price the injury risk in previously-healthy players). There are a few situations where a player is at a legitimately heightened risk for future injury (Danario Alexander comes to mind, and that's not hindsight bias- I called him injury prone before he tore his ACL again last offseason), but for the most part, Doug Drinen had it right a decade ago when he said that EVERYONE is an injury risk.

So... yes, we should be pricing risk profiles into player value, but it's not as easy as just making blanket declarations about which players are "risky" and which are "safe". Everyone is risky, and it's up to us to quantify that risk and apply it fairly to each player's value.
Good points.

I sold Vincent Jackson in hindsight should not have.

I did not sell Kenny Britt, obviously should have.

Will need to get a little better at assessing character risk and selling at the proper inflection points of value.

In regards to injury prone, prior to last year, I called Vick, Mathews, McFadden and Austin injury prone. Loosely, Vick, McFadden, Austin somewhat proved me right. (Yes I know this is cherry picked sample size wise.) All players have injury risk, but some have more then others. Maybe the data was really showing that the older the player is, the less likely they will be to continue uninjured, ie no one defeats father time. Non-sequential injuries such as Gronk, give me less pause then repetitive injuries to the same spot, ie McFadden. Maybe this is a post ad-hoc fallacy, but in certain instances, I think injury prone is an applicable label. (It is sometimes mis-applied and mis-perceived, but I don't think this quantifiably eliminates it.)

If I feel inspired enough, maybe I'll try to forecast 2014 prone players, but that might be an exercise in hubris, and will not include everyone who will be injured, as indeed everyone is at a base level of risk for playing the sport.

 
I know this is blasphemy in a dynasty thread.

But I'm wondering what Josh Gordon owners are going to do with that roster spot if he gets banned for a year. I'm in a salary cap league, so it's not just a question of a roster spot. Furthermore, do any of you have confidence that this is the last time Gordon pulls a knucklehead move like this?
Obviously tons of Gordon discussion going on in other threads, but in short, I personally have zero confidence in him staying clean moving forward. I'd be selling like crazy before anything official hits.
I saw an ESPN commentator go on and on about Gordon squandering all this money. And I think that's kind of missing the point. When Gordon's career is over, it's not the money he's going to miss most. It's all that greatness that could have been.
Given the somewhat similar issue that is facing Blackmon. (yes I know tomato/tomato, potato/french fry.)

Do we have to start factoring in character concern, and at the 1st signs of smoke, at least consider selling?

Maybe start classing players tier 1 - talent , but if they are tier 2 character and perhaps tier 2 injury prone, try to move that player based on their talent tier.

Makes sense in a vacuum, practically, things are too much of a crapshoot to attempt to properly quantify these tiers though.

Will have to ponder this moving forward.
I'm a big proponent of "pricing risk". Basically, you need to clarify the differences between expectations and expected value. Expectations are what you think are the most likely outcome. Expected value is the average of all possible outcomes weighted by likelihood. So yes, if someone presents with an additional risk, you need to objectively evaluate that risk and price it appropriately.

At the same time, we need to be smart about the "objectively evaluate the risk" phase, too. Most people who use drugs are not addicted to drugs. If a guy fails a single drug test, then that should increase our estimated chances that he's an addict, but by far the most likely explanation remains that he is not. It's not until we start getting multiple failed tests (especially in a short period of time) that the preponderance of the evidence begins to point to addiction rather than recreation. Josh Gordon wasn't a risky buy because of his suspension last season, he was a risky buy because of his suspension *IN ADDITION TO* the multiple failed tests in college that resulted in him transferring out of one program, never playing a down for a second program, and entering the league through the supplemental draft process. Likewise, Justin Blackmon's pre-draft alcohol problems should have raised some eyebrows (especially just how far above the legal limit he was on his last DUI- it was truly Herculean, iirc), but suspicions shouldn't have reached full alert until he added that NFL suspension to the rap sheet. After all, plenty of other players have had DUIs with nothing coming from it. Vincent Jackson had a pair of DUIs (and a "holdout" that wasn't actually a holdout since he wasn't under contract), and I was arguing to the hills that he wasn't a character risk. At the same time, I wrote an article during the middle of Blackmon's hot streak arguing that his owners should sell him quickly at his current market value. Not all risks are created equally.

Injury risks are one of those risks that I don't think are created equally. I think a lot of the "injury prone" talk results from the fact that random is random, and often streaky (while still remaining truly random). If injuries were randomly distributed, we should EXPECT to see some players accumulating a couple in short succession. We should also expect that those players are no more likely to accumulate any more going forward. Nevertheless, the human mind is built to discern patterns and is very proficient at the task, often finding patterns where none truly exists. As a result, it tends to over-price the injury risk in previously-injured players (and, simultaneously, under-price the injury risk in previously-healthy players). There are a few situations where a player is at a legitimately heightened risk for future injury (Danario Alexander comes to mind, and that's not hindsight bias- I called him injury prone before he tore his ACL again last offseason), but for the most part, Doug Drinen had it right a decade ago when he said that EVERYONE is an injury risk.

So... yes, we should be pricing risk profiles into player value, but it's not as easy as just making blanket declarations about which players are "risky" and which are "safe". Everyone is risky, and it's up to us to quantify that risk and apply it fairly to each player's value.
In doing auctions lately, I've weighed risk - safety from .5-1.5. This includes everything from injury (which I don't put too much weight on), unproven performance (maybe he just has a few nice games) and boneheadedness. Blackmon and Gordon have the lowest score at .5, while guys like Drew Brees, Andrew Luck, Calvin, AJ Green and a few others have 1.5. Even Peyton doesn't get the full 1.5 because he might retire in the next year or two.

 
Likewise, Justin Blackmon's pre-draft alcohol problems should have raised some eyebrows (especially just how far above the legal limit he was on his last DUI- it was truly Herculean, iirc), but suspicions shouldn't have reached full alert until he added that NFL suspension to the rap sheet.
I was blinded by Blackmon's talent (took him 1.2 ahead of Doug Martin) so when he blew a .24 I shrugged it off. In hindsight it should have been a gigantic red flag that he is an alcoholic and he'd be unlikely to pass 10 tests a month.

While I did sell him in one league last offseason, I still hadn't priced in his true risk. Was lucky to sell him in another league for Austin a couple months ago.
The single 0.24, taken by itself, wasn't a deal-breaker for me. That's a very high total, and I know he'd had another previous DUI, but in the previous offense he had been well below the adult limit, but failed because he was still underaged. Midway through his rookie year, I was still firmly on the "time to buy!" wagon (as, ironically, everyone else was dropping him way down their rankings because he was struggling as a rookie and so they questioned his talent, of all things). It wasn't until he started racking up NFL suspensions that I started to worry about him having a serious problem.

 
Nah, the move is to stockpile as much talent as you can and then use trades to rebalance your roster and address needs.
Put it this way- would you rather have devoted significant draft resources to grabbing RBs in 2008, the deepest RB draft in history, or in 2009-2012, one of the weakest periods of RB prospects we've ever seen? If a draft is loaded at a position, the shark move is not "ignore that position in favor of another one where it was demonstrably weaker".
Talent is so subjective. Is Beckham more talented than his teammate Hill? Hyde? Lacy? Bell? Ball? Is Julio more talented than McCoy? I am going with a big "NO!", but the "talent" crowd is likely to drool over Julio and take him.

Where a clear advantage exists--of course always side with the talent. But there seems to be the notion that the average WR is more taletned than the average RB. That's imply not true, and even if we assumed it were, we'd have to adjust how we value talent. Supply and demand would eventually dictate it.

So, I'll again pose with additional context; where talent is close, is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the WR market is being flooded?
Sure, where the talent is close, things like positional scarcity and positional value reign. And I agree that in situations where the talent is close, many automatically break ties towards the WR as the "more talented" of the two. I'm talking more about situations like Bishop Sankey- a late 2nd round pick- being considered at 1.01 in rookie drafts. That's a situation where the talent isn't close. You want to make an argument that, due to the NFL's devaluement of RBs, a late-2nd RB is "comparably talented" to an early-2nd WR, then I'm all years. In fact, I believe I made a similar argument last year in my articles on using adjusted draft position as a measure of talent. But some people are taking that argument too far and using it to support guys drafted in the back half of the second round over guys drafted in the front half of the first.

 
Good points.


I sold Vincent Jackson in hindsight should not have.

I did not sell Kenny Britt, obviously should have.

Will need to get a little better at assessing character risk and selling at the proper inflection points of value.

In regards to injury prone, prior to last year, I called Vick, Mathews, McFadden and Austin injury prone. Loosely, Vick, McFadden, Austin somewhat proved me right. (Yes I know this is cherry picked sample size wise.) All players have injury risk, but some have more then others. Maybe the data was really showing that the older the player is, the less likely they will be to continue uninjured, ie no one defeats father time. Non-sequential injuries such as Gronk, give me less pause then repetitive injuries to the same spot, ie McFadden. Maybe this is a post ad-hoc fallacy, but in certain instances, I think injury prone is an applicable label. (It is sometimes mis-applied and mis-perceived, but I don't think this quantifiably eliminates it.)

If I feel inspired enough, maybe I'll try to forecast 2014 prone players, but that might be an exercise in hubris, and will not include everyone who will be injured, as indeed everyone is at a base level of risk for playing the sport.
I don't think Britt's problems stem from character. I think they stem from the fact that he's physically not been the same guy since his last injury. If he still looked like the guy who dominated the league a few years back, teams would put up with all sorts of prima donna behavior.

I do agree that age is one of the biggest predictors of future injury- not just how likely such an injury is to occur, but perhaps more importantly, how likely a player is to have a sub-optimal recovery process. And I also agree that repetitive injuries in the same area are legitimate points of concern. A guy who struggled with multiple hamstring issues is more likely to have more hamstring issues in the future. A guy with 3 concussions on his resume is not only more likely to get concussed again, but the repercussions of his next concussion will doubtless be much higher, too. Some injuries certainly do create heightened risk profiles, but determining which ones do and which ones don't is the matter of careful observation and analysis, not simply counting the number of injuries (regardless of type) or number of games missed.

 
Was this WR class deep, or is the fact that the NFL needs more WRs, and drafts accordingly, the reason we feel so?
A lot of the "deepest WR class" stuff was happening before the draft. Also, iirc, the objective models guys (wdcrob, Chad Parsons, etc) have all praised the depth of this class, too.
Good point. And perhaps is it deeper than most, but I think we're going to continue seeing WRs drafted in the first 2 rounds and a high rate. Teams wan't difference makers across the board, rather than be content with one as their top guy. Look at the resources that teams are pouring into the WR position (and pass catching TEs).

The WR position was the richest before this draft, which saw 12 players go in the first 2 rounds. Is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the market is being flooded?
Nah, the move is to stockpile as much talent as you can and then use trades to rebalance your roster and address needs.

Put it this way- would you rather have devoted significant draft resources to grabbing RBs in 2008, the deepest RB draft in history, or in 2009-2012, one of the weakest periods of RB prospects we've ever seen? If a draft is loaded at a position, the shark move is not "ignore that position in favor of another one where it was demonstrably weaker".
We didn't know 2009-2012 were weak RB drafts at the time. There were always highly ranked RBs, just few of them reached their potential. The biggest hits in 2008 were not the guys ranked 90+ like McFadden and Stewart but the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th RBs off the board. What is separating Rice, Forte, and Charles from this year's 2nd and 3rd round backs.

It's also possible the "depth" of this class is not in elite WR talent. It is in contributor talent. Even Cooks and Beckham don't project to be dominant fantasy players IMO despite their draft pedigree. A lot of the 2nd tier WR landed in + situations, which makes it harder to project them. A contributor on the Packers, Eagles, or Broncos could score a lot of points.

I think Hyde and Mason should be targeted. They do have upside. Hyde's dynasty upside may be higher than Beckham or Cooks. I think Hyde is in the same tier as Beckham and Cooks and don't have any problem taking him over the WR to fit a need. One of the best WR drafts was 2009 but a Rd 2 RB was still the best player in that draft.

I think taking Hyde over Beckham or Cooks is a lot different question than taking Sankey over Watkins, like the other Shark Pool thread. I think any of the 4 tier 1 RB are in play at pick 3 and Freeman isn't far behind. That's not based on some expected glut of WR or possible y2 buy low opportunity, but just based on possible value and production.

Really, i think the potential glut of WR is overstated. Next year there aren't many WR prospects equivalent to Watkins and Evans. There's basically no Calvin Johnson or AJ Green in the pipeline waiting to come into the league. Elite WR or even WR1s will still be hard to find.

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?

 
thriftyrocker said:
Adam Harstad said:
Concept Coop said:
Adam Harstad said:
Concept Coop said:
Was this WR class deep, or is the fact that the NFL needs more WRs, and drafts accordingly, the reason we feel so?
A lot of the "deepest WR class" stuff was happening before the draft. Also, iirc, the objective models guys (wdcrob, Chad Parsons, etc) have all praised the depth of this class, too.
Good point. And perhaps is it deeper than most, but I think we're going to continue seeing WRs drafted in the first 2 rounds and a high rate. Teams wan't difference makers across the board, rather than be content with one as their top guy. Look at the resources that teams are pouring into the WR position (and pass catching TEs).

The WR position was the richest before this draft, which saw 12 players go in the first 2 rounds. Is the move to "zig" and grab RBs while the market is being flooded?
Nah, the move is to stockpile as much talent as you can and then use trades to rebalance your roster and address needs.

Put it this way- would you rather have devoted significant draft resources to grabbing RBs in 2008, the deepest RB draft in history, or in 2009-2012, one of the weakest periods of RB prospects we've ever seen? If a draft is loaded at a position, the shark move is not "ignore that position in favor of another one where it was demonstrably weaker".
We didn't know 2009-2012 were weak RB drafts at the time. There were always highly ranked RBs, just few of them reached their potential. The biggest hits in 2008 were not the guys ranked 90+ like McFadden and Stewart but the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th RBs off the board. What is separating Rice, Forte, and Charles from this year's 2nd and 3rd round backs.

It's also possible the "depth" of this class is not in elite WR talent. It is in contributor talent. Even Cooks and Beckham don't project to be dominant fantasy players IMO despite their draft pedigree. A lot of the 2nd tier WR landed in + situations, which makes it harder to project them. A contributor on the Packers, Eagles, or Broncos could score a lot of points.

I think Hyde and Mason should be targeted. They do have upside. Hyde's dynasty upside may be higher than Beckham or Cooks. I think Hyde is in the same tier as Beckham and Cooks and don't have any problem taking him over the WR to fit a need. One of the best WR drafts was 2009 but a Rd 2 RB was still the best player in that draft.

I think taking Hyde over Beckham or Cooks is a lot different question than taking Sankey over Watkins, like the other Shark Pool thread. I think any of the 4 tier 1 RB are in play at pick 3 and Freeman isn't far behind. That's not based on some expected glut of WR or possible y2 buy low opportunity, but just based on possible value and production.

Really, i think the potential glut of WR is overstated. Next year there aren't many WR prospects equivalent to Watkins and Evans. There's basically no Calvin Johnson or AJ Green in the pipeline waiting to come into the league. Elite WR or even WR1s will still be hard to find.
Largely agreed, and honestly, I wouldn't bat an eye at anyone who would take any of the 2nd round RBs at 1.03. I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it'd be odd enough to warrant comment. As you pointed out, there's a big difference between 1.03 and 1.01, though.

 
Adam Harstad said:
Cato said:
Good points.


I sold Vincent Jackson in hindsight should not have.

I did not sell Kenny Britt, obviously should have.

Will need to get a little better at assessing character risk and selling at the proper inflection points of value.

In regards to injury prone, prior to last year, I called Vick, Mathews, McFadden and Austin injury prone. Loosely, Vick, McFadden, Austin somewhat proved me right. (Yes I know this is cherry picked sample size wise.) All players have injury risk, but some have more then others. Maybe the data was really showing that the older the player is, the less likely they will be to continue uninjured, ie no one defeats father time. Non-sequential injuries such as Gronk, give me less pause then repetitive injuries to the same spot, ie McFadden. Maybe this is a post ad-hoc fallacy, but in certain instances, I think injury prone is an applicable label. (It is sometimes mis-applied and mis-perceived, but I don't think this quantifiably eliminates it.)

If I feel inspired enough, maybe I'll try to forecast 2014 prone players, but that might be an exercise in hubris, and will not include everyone who will be injured, as indeed everyone is at a base level of risk for playing the sport.
I don't think Britt's problems stem from character. I think they stem from the fact that he's physically not been the same guy since his last injury. If he still looked like the guy who dominated the league a few years back, teams would put up with all sorts of prima donna behavior.

I do agree that age is one of the biggest predictors of future injury- not just how likely such an injury is to occur, but perhaps more importantly, how likely a player is to have a sub-optimal recovery process. And I also agree that repetitive injuries in the same area are legitimate points of concern. A guy who struggled with multiple hamstring issues is more likely to have more hamstring issues in the future. A guy with 3 concussions on his resume is not only more likely to get concussed again, but the repercussions of his next concussion will doubtless be much higher, too. Some injuries certainly do create heightened risk profiles, but determining which ones do and which ones don't is the matter of careful observation and analysis, not simply counting the number of injuries (regardless of type) or number of games missed.
Again good point.

Perhaps talent, character, and injury risk, are real player attributes, but obviously caution has to be taken rather then painting in large brushstrokes. And while objective measures of these attributes exist, they are also open to subjective interpretation, hence continued discussion. Perhaps due to the small sample size of games vs other sports and shorter career arcs, while we try to mitigate and anchor our choices in data, this can lead to greater booms and busts, as "true price" sell and buy points are taken before larger run-rates have a chance to establish themselves.

Maybe I should play fantasy baseball, just as a contrast point from a philosophical level, in regards to career length and game sample size vs asset acquisition buying and selling value inflections points in regards to their marketplaces.

.Nah.

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
Since 1996 (multiple endpoints ahoy!), the only TEs taken in the top half of the first round are Ebron, Vernon Davis, KWII, Shockey, Franks, and Gonzo. That's not a shabby list at all- Gonzo gave 846 points of VBD for his career, Davis is at 200 and counting, Shockey topped 150 VBD (and would be well over 200 on a per-game basis), and Winslow topped 100 VBD (more in PPR, where he was a poor man's Jason Witten) despite playing his entire career at 85% after several injuries he never fully recovered from. By far the worst was Bubba Franks, and even he was a serviceable fantasy player for a while.

It's rare for TEs to go in the top half of the first round, and the ones that do make it have a pretty strong success rate. Positional value is important and cannot be disregarded, but the case for Ebron is easy to make.

 
IMO it's essential to break out a subset of "character issues" for "potential substance abuse issues." Most guys with character issues aren't getting caught every time, and are getting a slap on the wrist if they do. Given the hugely invasive testing policies and stiff punishments for substance abuse offenders, there's a much greater risk that those guys will get caught, and the penalties are much worse when they do.

 
Largely agreed, and honestly, I wouldn't bat an eye at anyone who would take any of the 2nd round RBs at 1.03. I wouldn't do it, but I don't think it'd be odd enough to warrant comment. As you pointed out, there's a big difference between 1.03 and 1.01, though.
I'm seeing drafts in which the top five picks are all WRs. Two-RB mandatory leagues. At that point, it's definitely time to zag.

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
Since 1996 (multiple endpoints ahoy!), the only TEs taken in the top half of the first round are Ebron, Vernon Davis, KWII, Shockey, Franks, and Gonzo. That's not a shabby list at all- Gonzo gave 846 points of VBD for his career, Davis is at 200 and counting, Shockey topped 150 VBD (and would be well over 200 on a per-game basis), and Winslow topped 100 VBD (more in PPR, where he was a poor man's Jason Witten) despite playing his entire career at 85% after several injuries he never fully recovered from. By far the worst was Bubba Franks, and even he was a serviceable fantasy player for a while.

It's rare for TEs to go in the top half of the first round, and the ones that do make it have a pretty strong success rate. Positional value is important and cannot be disregarded, but the case for Ebron is easy to make.
If you just went back one more year we could have included Kyle Brady

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
Since 1996 (multiple endpoints ahoy!), the only TEs taken in the top half of the first round are Ebron, Vernon Davis, KWII, Shockey, Franks, and Gonzo. That's not a shabby list at all- Gonzo gave 846 points of VBD for his career, Davis is at 200 and counting, Shockey topped 150 VBD (and would be well over 200 on a per-game basis), and Winslow topped 100 VBD (more in PPR, where he was a poor man's Jason Witten) despite playing his entire career at 85% after several injuries he never fully recovered from. By far the worst was Bubba Franks, and even he was a serviceable fantasy player for a while.

It's rare for TEs to go in the top half of the first round, and the ones that do make it have a pretty strong success rate. Positional value is important and cannot be disregarded, but the case for Ebron is easy to make.
If you just went back one more year we could have included Kyle Brady
Yup. Hence the "multiple endpoints" warning.

Also, forgot to include Rickey Dudley in the list. He was drafted 9th overall in 1996, and finished with 129 career VBD.

 
IMO it's essential to break out a subset of "character issues" for "potential substance abuse issues." Most guys with character issues aren't getting caught every time, and are getting a slap on the wrist if they do. Given the hugely invasive testing policies and stiff punishments for substance abuse offenders, there's a much greater risk that those guys will get caught, and the penalties are much worse when they do.
I realize if we look at the general population, recovery rate is abysmal. But the number of players nabbed twice for substance abuse is pretty low. And the NFL is already working to raise the threshold for marijuana abuse which may be the biggest current risk factor. Avoiding Blackmon and Gordon at this point might be appropriate because they are already damaged goods under high scrutiny. However, it is impossible to avoid all players who smoke marijuana, and the next player with a checkered NCAA history of use is not necessarily a high risk player.


 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
He's a Lion. Pettigrew was picked very high as well. Maybe I am underrating him.

 
IMO it's essential to break out a subset of "character issues" for "potential substance abuse issues." Most guys with character issues aren't getting caught every time, and are getting a slap on the wrist if they do. Given the hugely invasive testing policies and stiff punishments for substance abuse offenders, there's a much greater risk that those guys will get caught, and the penalties are much worse when they do.
I realize if we look at the general population, recovery rate is abysmal. But the number of players nabbed twice for substance abuse is pretty low. And the NFL is already working to raise the threshold for marijuana abuse which may be the biggest current risk factor. Avoiding Blackmon and Gordon at this point might be appropriate because they are already damaged goods under high scrutiny. However, it is impossible to avoid all players who smoke marijuana, and the next player with a checkered NCAA history of use is not necessarily a high risk player.
Yeah, I agree with this for the most part. A failed test or two in college can easily be just young & dumb. IMO failed tests in the pros are the big red flag, as that's much harder to justify (you KNOW teams are hammering on this given what's at stake here) and also brings increased scrutiny in the way of testing from the league.

I also wouldn't put much weight on the whole NFL changing the policy thing. From what I've read, they've been in negotiations with the NFLPA on it since 2011, and won't budge on weed except in exchange for HGH testing plus more authority for Goddell in hearing appeals. I'd be shocked if we see wholesale changes anytime soon.

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
He's a Lion. Pettigrew was picked very high as well. Maybe I am underrating him.
Pettigrew was picked 20th as an all-around TE. Ebron was picked 10th as a pure receiver with limited blocking ability.

 
Kind of surprised how high everyone has Ebron to be honest.
Pretty rare for a TE to be picked that high by the NFL, and Detroit throws like 50 times a game. He's been mid 1st in TE req, high 1st in TE premium from what I've seen -- IMO that's about right. Anything in particular you're not liking with him?
He's a Lion. Pettigrew was picked very high as well. Maybe I am underrating him.
Yeah it's the Lions, but seriously, how many better FF situations exist for a pass catcher? They throw a ton, and unlike most of the other prolific passing offenses, the pecking order for targets is wide open (after Calvin of course). Pettigrew pretty much sucks as a receiver IMO.

 
thriftyrocker said:
Really, i think the potential glut of WR is overstated. Next year there aren't many WR prospects equivalent to Watkins and Evans. There's basically no Calvin Johnson or AJ Green in the pipeline waiting to come into the league. Elite WR or even WR1s will still be hard to find.
I think the glut will make it harder to establish an advantage by playing a WR2 at the WR3 spot. Or low end WR1 at the WR2 spot. Owning the top guys will still be huge (though, even that tier is growing).

The "+" spots for WRs are increasing. The fantasy production of NFL WR2s and 3s (and TEs) is higher than it's ever been--and is likely to hold, if not continue growing, IMO.

 
there are a couple of factors about Ebron that makes him very attractive to me:

draft position

QB

new OC

plays indoors (I really overvalue this and equate it to a fast track)

 
IMO it's essential to break out a subset of "character issues" for "potential substance abuse issues." Most guys with character issues aren't getting caught every time, and are getting a slap on the wrist if they do. Given the hugely invasive testing policies and stiff punishments for substance abuse offenders, there's a much greater risk that those guys will get caught, and the penalties are much worse when they do.
I realize if we look at the general population, recovery rate is abysmal. But the number of players nabbed twice for substance abuse is pretty low. And the NFL is already working to raise the threshold for marijuana abuse which may be the biggest current risk factor. Avoiding Blackmon and Gordon at this point might be appropriate because they are already damaged goods under high scrutiny. However, it is impossible to avoid all players who smoke marijuana, and the next player with a checkered NCAA history of use is not necessarily a high risk player.
Right. Even if someone tests positive for a substance, the most likely explanation is still that they're not an addict.

It's similar to medical tests. Let's say that within a given population there's a disease that occurs in 1 out of every 1000 people, and science has designed a test for it that is 99% accurate. If a guy tests positive for that disease, you know what the chances are that he actually has it? The initial instinct is to guess 99%, but that's wrong. If you tested 1000 people from that population, statistically, you'd expect to find one guy who actually had the disease... and ten more guys who show up as false positives (that's the 1% error rate in the test times the 999 people who don't have the disease). So even if this 99% accurate test comes back positive, somebody still has a less than 1-in-10 chance of actually having the disease. Similarly, even if a player tests positive for a substance, the most likely explanation remains that they do not actually have a substance abuse problem.

Now, if you retested those 11 guys that came up positive the first time, and somebody came up positive again, then you're looking at an extremely high chance that that person does, in fact, have the disease in question. And similarly, once someone makes it to stage 3 of the substance abuse program, odds are fantastic that they have a serious problem that's going to dramatically impact their ability to stay on the field.

 
Ebron's situation really reminds me of Eiffert last year. (1) Consensus #1 TE, (2) drafted on pass-happy team, (3) with an entrenched starter at TE already. Yes Pettigrew is underwhelming, but so is Gresham. And yes the target order is fairly wide open, but so was Cinci.

Given the general forecast for rookie TEs, I would expect a devaluation in the short term on Ebron when he doesn't blow up as a rook sharing targets with Tate, Pettigrew, Bush, and even Fauria. If you plan to draft and hold him long term, no problem. But it may be that he can be acquired more cheaply in the future (as per Eiffert).

 
I think the glut will make it harder to establish an advantage by playing a WR2 at the WR3 spot. Or low end WR1 at the WR2 spot. Owning the top guys will still be huge (though, even that tier is growing).

The "+" spots for WRs are increasing. The fantasy production of NFL WR2s and 3s (and TEs) is higher than it's ever been--and is likely to hold, if not continue growing, IMO.
Are you basing this projection on what you expect, or do you already see a trend happening? I went and compared 2012 to 2013, and WR1 and WR2 production actually increased. I averaged the PPGs for WR1s through WR6s for both years and the average for WR1 and WR2 each went up a point and the average for WR3 and WR4 went down a little less than half a point and the average for WR5 and WR6 went up slightly. In the past points have plateaued at WR3 because WR4s are less distinguishable from WR3s. If every NFL team has multiple competent WRs won't this extend and drop the plateau. That is WR3-WR6 gets flatter. The plateau doesn't necessarily start earlier. Add DeSean Jackson to Pierre Garcon and the upside of both goes down. Add Tate and Ebron to Calvin Johnson and it doesn't affect much.

 
Ebron's situation really reminds me of Eiffert last year. (1) Consensus #1 TE, (2) drafted on pass-happy team, (3) with an entrenched starter at TE already. Yes Pettigrew is underwhelming, but so is Gresham. And yes the target order is fairly wide open, but so was Cinci.

Given the general forecast for rookie TEs, I would expect a devaluation in the short term on Ebron when he doesn't blow up as a rook sharing targets with Tate, Pettigrew, Bush, and even Fauria. If you plan to draft and hold him long term, no problem. But it may be that he can be acquired more cheaply in the future (as per Eiffert).
It's worth noting that Stafford has 250 more pass attempts than Dalton over the last two years. Even if they're both "pass happy" offenses it's not to the same extent.

 
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Does the person who actually started this thread make dynasty rankings anymore and if so where can I find them ? I really enjoyed his ranking system back in 2010 and how he did his rankings.

 
Are you basing this projection on what you expect, or do you already see a trend happening? I went and compared 2012 to 2013, and WR1 and WR2 production actually increased. I averaged the PPGs for WR1s through WR6s for both years and the average for WR1 and WR2 each went up a point and the average for WR3 and WR4 went down a little less than half a point and the average for WR5 and WR6 went up slightly. In the past points have plateaued at WR3 because WR4s are less distinguishable from WR3s. If every NFL team has multiple competent WRs won't this extend and drop the plateau. That is WR3-WR6 gets flatter. The plateau doesn't necessarily start earlier. Add DeSean Jackson to Pierre Garcon and the upside of both goes down. Add Tate and Ebron to Calvin Johnson and it doesn't affect much.
The trend is happening. NFL WR2/3 production is higher than it's ever been. DLF did a study on it within the last two years, and I can dig it up if needed. Passing production is increasing at a rapid rate. The production of the top target of NFL teams is not; at the same pace at least. That production is going elsewhere.

And I've previously stated that the elite options, while growing in number, are likely maintain their advantage over the field.

 
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