Vince Young as a Passer (1 Viewer)

Obviously a lot has been said and written about Vince Young recently and there are some very divergent opinions on his play. One theme that comes up again and again, among both fans and detractors, is the idea that Young isn't much of a passer at this stage of his career. I thought it would be interesting to see how he compares to other Rookie QBs who have started a significant number of games.

For this initial post anyway, I am going to stick to objectively observable facts and focus only on Young's passing statistics.

Here are Young's passing numbers thus far:

169/320 (52.8%), 1,972 yards, 6.2 Yds/Att, 12 TD, 11 INT, 69.9 QB Rating

I searched the Historical Data Dominator for all QBs since 1980 who played in at least 8 games as a Rookie and attempted at least 100 passes. The search yielded 58 QBs other than Young.

The average stats for that group are as follows:

151/283 (53.4%), 1,803 yards, 6.4 Yds/Att, 9.4 TD, 10.9 INT, 68.2 QB Rating

Without doing too many statistical calculations, I think it is probably fair to say that his numbers are pretty typical of Rookie QBs who have started a significant number of games. The only category where his numbers might be statistical significant in their difference from average is the TD total, and even that would be a relatively small deviation.

But in looking over the list of Rookie starters, I see a number of names that aren't exactly world beaters, including a number of guys who didn't play much after their rookie seasons (including Dieter Brock, Kelly Stouffer, TJ Rubley, Heath Shuler, Craig Whelihan, Ryan Leaf, Cade McNown, Chad Hutchinson, Kyle Orton, and the immortal Kurt Kittner). Obviously, being about the same as a group that included these stiffs isn't exactly high praise.

So, in order to filter for quality a bit, I sorted out all of the Rookie QB starters who went on to play in less than 80 games over the course of their NFL careers. The remaining sample included 29 players. Their average Rookie statistics looked like this:

158/293 (53.6%), 1,952 yards, 6.7 Yds/Att, 10.8 TD, 11.3 INT, 71.0 QB Rating

Probably the most interesting thing here is that the statistics hardly change at all, despite removing almost half of the sample. And the statistics still look a lot like Young's.

But once again, there are clearly some very marginal NFL QBs in the group...despite the fact that they ended up playing in the equivalent of five years worth of NFL games. These include Steve Walsh (81 career games), Rick Mirer (82 career games), Koy Detmer (84 career games), Tommy Maddox (95 career games), and Tony Banks (98 career games).

Although there are some so-so QBs who played in more than 100 games, that seems to be a bit of a natural cut-off, so I filtered the list again to exclude QBs who played in less than 100 games. Here are the average Rookie stats for that group of players (22 in all):

159/298 (53.1%), 2,002 yards, 6.7 Yds/Att, 11.4 TD, 11.7 INT, 71.1 QB Rating

Again, the striking thing is how little these statistics changed from the last two iterations of this analysis. And, once again, the numbers are very similar to what Young has put up.

Finally, if I then go in to the remaining sample and cherry pick QBs who went on to have notably successful careers as NFL passers (12 total, with median NFL career passing yardage of ~34,200), the average Rookie stats are as follows:

181/334 (53.4%), 2,226 yards, 6.6 Yds/Att, 12.8 TD, 13.6 INT, 70.7 QB Rating

Again, these numbers are not that different from Young's, nor from the other Rookie starter samples. It is also worth noting that two of the players in this small sample (Warren Moon and Jim Kelly) had prior experience as starters in other professional leagues. These are also two of the guys with better rookie statistics.

Conclusions:

--Young's passing statistics are very similar to those of the average Rookie QB who has played significantly since 1980.

--Young's passing statisitcs are also very similar to those of Rookie QBs who went on to play in at least 80 and at least 100 games over the course of their careers.

--The difference in passing statistics between all Rookie QBs who played significantly and those who went on to play in 80 games and 100 games are not very different.

--There is nothing in Young's passing numbers as a rookie that suggest that he won't be able to develop into a competent (or even prolific) NFL passer.

--Likewise, his statistics are not that much better than a number of QBs who started as Rookies, but then faded into obscurity relatively quickly (some almost immediately).

--His statisitcs are also none too different from a hand picked group of QBs who went on to pass for at least 22,000 yards and averaged over 36,000 yards over the course of their careers.

I think this bodes moderately well for Young, since I'd think he's going to be the best rusher or close to it out of that group, and since he was suppsoed to be a bad passer and a great runner to start. Being an average passer & a great runner is one step further along than that.

The interesting thing is that one really can't sort out players for quality right now in any meaningful way, as you show.

Examples of guys who were thought of as sure things like Ryan Leaf & Cade McNown are sprinkled in with Koy Detmer & TJ Rubley. So clearly the draft isn't going to tell us squat.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Finally, if I then go in to the remaining sample and cherry pick QBs who went on to have notably successful careers as NFL passers (12 total, with median NFL career passing yardage of ~34,200), the average Rookie stats are as follows:181/334 (53.4%), 2,226 yards, 6.6 Yds/Att, 12.8 TD, 13.6 INT, 70.7 QB RatingAgain, these numbers are not that different from Young's, nor from the other Rookie starter samples. It is also worth noting that two of the players in this small sample (Warren Moon and Jim Kelly) had prior experience as starters in other professional leagues. These are also two of the guys with better rookie statistics.

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WOW! I really hope this post is not lost in the "slow-traffic" offseason. Great job, Redmond Longhorn!I've highlighted the part of your analysis which made my jaw drop. With Young's uncanning ability to win games and run the ball, I think it's human nature for doubters to focus on his passing skills.Question...Are you able to further filter the sample size to include highly-drafted QB's (1st, 2nd and 3rd-rounders) and non highly-drafted QB's (4th-rounders and below)? I'm assuming some of the QB's (...especially, the non highly-drafted QB's) in the samples above were forced into action b/c of injuries, while others (...like Young) were destined to see the field in their rookie year.

Weiner Dog said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Finally, if I then go in to the remaining sample and cherry pick QBs who went on to have notably successful careers as NFL passers (12 total, with median NFL career passing yardage of ~34,200), the average Rookie stats are as follows:181/334 (53.4%), 2,226 yards, 6.6 Yds/Att, 12.8 TD, 13.6 INT, 70.7 QB RatingAgain, these numbers are not that different from Young's, nor from the other Rookie starter samples. It is also worth noting that two of the players in this small sample (Warren Moon and Jim Kelly) had prior experience as starters in other professional leagues. These are also two of the guys with better rookie statistics.

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WOW! I really hope this post is not lost in the "slow-traffic" offseason. Great job, Redmond Longhorn!I've highlighted the part of your analysis which made my jaw drop. With Young's uncanning ability to win games and run the ball, I think it's human nature for doubters to focus on his passing skills.Question...Are you able to further filter the sample size to include highly-drafted QB's (1st, 2nd and 3rd-rounders) and non highly-drafted QB's (4th-rounders and below)? I'm assuming some of the QB's (...especially, the non highly-drafted QB's) in the samples above were forced into action b/c of injuries, while others (...like Young) were destined to see the field in their rookie year.

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I don't have the draft data handy, but I think I controlled for it in the second and subsequent iterations of the analysis, when I filtered out guys who only ended up playing in a handful of games after their Rookie years.

Vince Young has broken virtually all of the Oilers/Titans' franchise records for a rookie QB. The records he is breaking typically belong to Warren Moon. He was classified as a rookie, even though he'd already played 6 years as a pro in the CFL. So...that is who VY is surpassing. I'm just sayin'.

Young is winning football games. He's 8-4 as a starter, one of the five best winning percentages for a rookie quarterback in NFL history.

VY's QB rating Sunday was 127.7.

VY's YTD QB rating is 69, but over the last 6 games -- as he has continued to develop -- it is over 87.

Young is the first player in NFL history with three rushing TDs of 20 yards or longer and three TD passes of 20 yards or longer in his rookie season.

That having been said: I don't care about any of that. All I care about is the fact that he wins. He's a winner. And, he influences his teamates to be winners.

When the Titans were 0-5, John McClain asked him how he was going to react to having his first losing record. VY said: "Who said we were going to have a losing record?"

There has been very little said in the last few weeks about Young because (1) his team keeps winning and (2) his completion percentage is going up and his turnovers are remaining low.

I find it interesting to see how efficient the Titans offense even with moderate numbers from Young. During the winning streak, Young is completing 59.5% of his passes for 11.48 YPC (anything above 10 is acceptable) with 7 passing TDs to only 3 Ints. Ratios like that are going to win a lot of games for this team.

The difference maker is obviously his scrambling, where he's averaging almost 60 yards a game and a TD every other week on the ground during the wins.

If Young can make a career out of remaining frisky on the ground by gaining needed first downs with his feet a la Garcia and McNair in their prime, then being right around a 60% passer with a 2:1 TD/Int ratio is going to serve the Titans very well.

Colin Dowling said:

There has been very little said in the last few weeks about Young because (1) his team keeps winning and (2) his completion percentage is going up and his turnovers are remaining low. I find it interesting to see how efficient the Titans offense even with moderate numbers from Young. During the winning streak, Young is completing 59.5% of his passes for 11.48 YPC (anything above 10 is acceptable) with 7 passing TDs to only 3 Ints. Ratios like that are going to win a lot of games for this team. The difference maker is obviously his scrambling, where he's averaging almost 60 yards a game and a TD every other week on the ground during the wins. If Young can make a career out of remaining frisky on the ground by gaining needed first downs with his feet a la Garcia and McNair in their prime, then being right around a 60% passer with a 2:1 TD/Int ratio is going to serve the Titans very well.

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Colin:I don't disagree at all.But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either). His rookie season totals are AVERAGE, at worst. He has shown remarkable progress through the season, though, and all of the anecdotal evidence suggests that he is likely to continue improving. And then there are his qualities as a leader and a runner, which cannot be doubted.The bottom line is that Young's passing statistics and passing proficiency have been maligned unfairly.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Colin Dowling said:

There has been very little said in the last few weeks about Young because (1) his team keeps winning and (2) his completion percentage is going up and his turnovers are remaining low.

I find it interesting to see how efficient the Titans offense even with moderate numbers from Young. During the winning streak, Young is completing 59.5% of his passes for 11.48 YPC (anything above 10 is acceptable) with 7 passing TDs to only 3 Ints. Ratios like that are going to win a lot of games for this team.

The difference maker is obviously his scrambling, where he's averaging almost 60 yards a game and a TD every other week on the ground during the wins.

If Young can make a career out of remaining frisky on the ground by gaining needed first downs with his feet a la Garcia and McNair in their prime, then being right around a 60% passer with a 2:1 TD/Int ratio is going to serve the Titans very well.

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Colin:I don't disagree at all.

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

His rookie season totals are AVERAGE, at worst. He has shown remarkable progress through the season, though, and all of the anecdotal evidence suggests that he is likely to continue improving. And then there are his qualities as a leader and a runner, which cannot be doubted.

The bottom line is that Young's passing statistics and passing proficiency have been maligned unfairly.

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While my intent is not to turn this in to a "bash the VY bashers!" thread, I tend to think that those who have done the aforementioned maligning were either uninformed or carried an agenda. My confidence in Vince Young's passing ability has been rock solid since he was a freshman. Back then, he didn't show much passing ability, but he did show improvement. That's a trend that seems to continue with him.

Young's passing peformance has been solid for a rookie QB during this five game stretch.

It will be interesting to see if he can turn the corner and become that QB later on in his career, where the team can rely on his arm and decision making ability in games where he needs to pass the ball 40 times and score 4 passing TDs, like Favre, Manning, Young, Montana etc. etc.

I'll believe it when I see it.

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

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So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

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Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

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I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

LHUCKS said:

Young's passing peformance has been solid for a rookie QB during this five game stretch. It will be interesting to see if he can turn the corner and become that QB later on in his career, where the team can rely on his arm and decision making ability in games where he needs to pass the ball 40 times and score 4 passing TDs, like Favre, Manning, Young, Montana etc. etc.I'll believe it when I see it.

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There are lots of extremely successful QBs who never had to pass "40 times and score 4 passing TDs". Some of the greatest of all time only did it occassionally.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Click to expand...

I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

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No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

RedmondLonghorn said:

I searched the Historical Data Dominator for all QBs since 1980 who played in at least 8 games as a Rookie and attempted at least 100 passes. The search yielded 58 QBs other than Young.

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I'd be curious why you chose that time frame. There have been a lot of rule-changes and innovations that have aided passers since 1980. I think only going back 10-12 years would give you a more valid set of numbers to use as a point of comparison.

Colin Dowling said:

LHUCKS said:

Young's passing peformance has been solid for a rookie QB during this five game stretch. It will be interesting to see if he can turn the corner and become that QB later on in his career, where the team can rely on his arm and decision making ability in games where he needs to pass the ball 40 times and score 4 passing TDs, like Favre, Manning, Young, Montana etc. etc.I'll believe it when I see it.

Click to expand...

There are lots of extremely successful QBs who never had to pass "40 times and score 4 passing TDs". Some of the greatest of all time only did it occassionally.

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Sure...Troy Aikman is an example, but I think everybody had Troy Aikman ranked as one of the most accurate passers in recent history when he was coming out of the draft.Many running QBs start fast in the NFL as they are able to offset their passing deficiencies with their legs. What remains to be seen is if VY can make that fast start last by becoming a better passer, or will he simply come and go with his legs.I love watching him now, he is arguably the most exciting player in the NFL to watch, but I'm not willing to say he can take the next step given the question marks about his ability to excel in the passing game. He had a solid, not spectacular, five game stretch of passing the football.

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...

What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated.

Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.

Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws.

This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night.

Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

LHUCKS said:

I'm not willing to say he can take the next step given the question marks about his ability to excel in the passing game. He had a solid, not spectacular, five game stretch of passing the football.

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LHUCKS, you consistently leave VY's work ethic and humility out of your analysis. He was putrid as a passer when he first started at UT and in two years evolved to become one of the most dominant college QBs we've ever seen. Again, I'll use the word "tireless" to describe Vince and his dedication to improvement. If the question marks about his passing ability were as big or lingering as you make them sound, he would have had a year more like Alex Smith's 2005 - as said above, everyone expected that. For him to be "solid" passing the ball in his first year is way ahead of schedule.Remember that this is just "rough draft" of Young - and he is not the type to sit on his laurels and be satisfied.

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Click to expand...

I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

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No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

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Well, I disagree.A lot of folks are very critical of Young's passing ability and some like to cite his modest passing stats and his less than scintillating QB Rating as evidence of his deficiency. Which would all be well and good, except that the appropriate group to compare it to is not other current NFL starting QBs, but other rookie QBs. Compared to other NFL rookie QBs through recent history, Young is right about average. The fact is, almost all rookie QBs are pretty bad passers, compared to veteran starters. I think this point gets lost in the discussion of Young because his prowess as a rusher makes people assume he can't pass (the Michael Vick comparison) and his unorthodox delivery makes people leap to conclusions about his accuracy.

LHUCKS said:

Colin Dowling said:

LHUCKS said:

Young's passing peformance has been solid for a rookie QB during this five game stretch. It will be interesting to see if he can turn the corner and become that QB later on in his career, where the team can rely on his arm and decision making ability in games where he needs to pass the ball 40 times and score 4 passing TDs, like Favre, Manning, Young, Montana etc. etc.I'll believe it when I see it.

Click to expand...

There are lots of extremely successful QBs who never had to pass "40 times and score 4 passing TDs". Some of the greatest of all time only did it occassionally.

Click to expand...

Sure...Troy Aikman is an example, but I think everybody had Troy Aikman ranked as one of the most accurate passers in recent history when he was coming out of the draft.Many running QBs start fast in the NFL as they are able to offset their passing deficiencies with their legs, what remains to be seen is if VY can make that fast start last by becoming a better passer, or will he simply come and go with his legs.I love watching him now, he is arguable the most exciting player in the NFL to watch, but I'm not willing to say he can take the next step given the question marks about his ability to excel in the passing game. He had a solid, not spectacular, five game stretch of passing the football.

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Honest question: what kind of time frame are you looking for to "be convinced?" I certainly understand your perspective at this juncture even though I don't necessarily agree with it. That said, I realize the sample at the NFL level is small. I happen to think we'll see more of the same from Young as the years go by and you aren't so sure. Fair enough. How long do you need?

Despyzer said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

I searched the Historical Data Dominator for all QBs since 1980 who played in at least 8 games as a Rookie and attempted at least 100 passes. The search yielded 58 QBs other than Young.

Click to expand...

I'd be curious why you chose that time frame. There have been a lot of rule-changes and innovations that have aided passers since 1980. I think only going back 10-12 years would give you a more valid set of numbers to use as a point of comparison.

Click to expand...

I chose that timeframe in order to have a decent size sample to start from. There are, on average, less than three rookie QBs who play at least half of the games annually.I agree that there are a lot of differences in the NFL game today than from 25 years ago.

So we have a poster with "Longhorn" in his user name, a staffer from Austin, and a staffer who is a Titans fans all in favor of VY.

I love how all those who don't like VY all "were either uninformed or carried an agenda".



Way to maintain an open discussion.

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

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This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

bagger said:

So we have a poster with "Longhorn" in his user name, a staffer from Austin, and a staffer who is a Titans fans all in favor of VY. I love how all those who don't like VY all "were either uninformed or carried an agenda". Way to maintain an open discussion.

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Well, instead of just sniping, how about you contribute something meaningful the the discussion?Perhaps you could point out how my (acknowledged) bias on the topic invalidates any of the factual information I have presented...

bagger said:

So we have a poster with "Longhorn" in his user name, a staffer from Austin, and a staffer who is a Titans fan who lives in Austin all in favor of VY.

I love how all those who don't like VY all "were either uninformed or carried an agenda".



Way to maintain an open discussion.

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Fixed.

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS, you consistently leave VY's work ethic and humility out of your analysis. He was putrid as a passer when he first started at UT and in two years evolved to become one of the most dominant college QBs we've ever seen. Again, I'll use the word "tireless" to describe Vince and his dedication to improvement. If the question marks about his passing ability were as big or lingering as you make them sound, he would have had a year more like Alex Smith's 2005 - as said above, everyone expected that. For him to be "solid" passing the ball in his first year is way ahead of schedule.Remember that this is just "rough draft" of Young - and he is not the type to sit on his laurels and be satisfied.

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I agree that VY is a work in progress and he has no doubt surpassed everybody's expectations in terms of his ability to pass the ball as a rookie. That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospect's ability to pass the ball in the NFL. I don't believe it's that easy. I guess my opinion is that most first round QBs coming into the league have work ethic and many have humility....not all of them become great QBs. Tim Couch was a hard worker and as far as I can tell didn't lack humility.

LHUCKS said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS, you consistently leave VY's work ethic and humility out of your analysis. He was putrid as a passer when he first started at UT and in two years evolved to become one of the most dominant college QBs we've ever seen. Again, I'll use the word "tireless" to describe Vince and his dedication to improvement. If the question marks about his passing ability were as big or lingering as you make them sound, he would have had a year more like Alex Smith's 2005 - as said above, everyone expected that. For him to be "solid" passing the ball in his first year is way ahead of schedule.Remember that this is just "rough draft" of Young - and he is not the type to sit on his laurels and be satisfied.

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I agree that VY is a work in progress and he has no doubt surpassed everybody's expectations in terms of his ability to pass the ball as a rookie. That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospects ability to pass the ball in the NFL. I don't believe it's that easy. I guess my opinion is that most first round QBs coming into the league have work ethic and many have humility....not all of them become great QBs. Tim Couch was a hard worker and as far as I can tell didn't lack humility.

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And Tim Couch's career statistics are a good deal better than many folks still starting in the league. Couch's injuries cost him his career, but his job in Cleveland was lost due to one thing: not winning games.

David Dodds said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

FANTASY PTS: ROOKIE QBs1) Jim Kelly - 271 (16.9/gm)2) Peyton Manning - 269 (16.8/gm)3) Warren Moon - 228 (14.3/gm)4) Rick Mirer - 225 (14.1/gm)5) Vince Young - 224 (16.0/gm)Based on whatever scoring system you use in the Data Dominator.

Colin Dowling said:

LHUCKS said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS, you consistently leave VY's work ethic and humility out of your analysis. He was putrid as a passer when he first started at UT and in two years evolved to become one of the most dominant college QBs we've ever seen. Again, I'll use the word "tireless" to describe Vince and his dedication to improvement. If the question marks about his passing ability were as big or lingering as you make them sound, he would have had a year more like Alex Smith's 2005 - as said above, everyone expected that. For him to be "solid" passing the ball in his first year is way ahead of schedule.Remember that this is just "rough draft" of Young - and he is not the type to sit on his laurels and be satisfied.

Click to expand...

I agree that VY is a work in progress and he has no doubt surpassed everybody's expectations in terms of his ability to pass the ball as a rookie. That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospects ability to pass the ball in the NFL. I don't believe it's that easy. I guess my opinion is that most first round QBs coming into the league have work ethic and many have humility....not all of them become great QBs. Tim Couch was a hard worker and as far as I can tell didn't lack humility.

Click to expand...

And Tim Couch's career statistics are a good deal better than many folks still starting in the league. Couch's injuries cost him his career, but his job in Cleveland was lost due to one thing: not winning games.

Click to expand...

True but we're talking about whether Vince Young will be a great passing QB, not a good passing QB.

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

Only cause I know you can take a different viewpoint. I need to see a lot more of VY in the next couple of years before I would say he is going to be an elite QB. His passer rating is nothing special, and we have seen QBs come in as rookies and never develop beyond. Vick won in Green Bay for the 1st time in NFL history, took the Falcons to the NFC Championship IIRC, and now is being considered for replacement. VY has one thing going for him and that is he is winning football games. If he did not get lucky against the NYG, and pull some of these games out very late we would simply be talking about looking forward to his development next season but now because of the wins we are wanting to make VY bigger than what he actually is IMO. Dan Marino's rookie year...1983 mia | 11 | 173 296 58.4 2210 7.5 20TDs 6 Int | 28 45 2TDs2 of those 11 games he took over at halftime, I was at the game where he took over for Woodley against the Chiefs. In basically 9 full games he scored 22 TD, threw only 6 Interceptions and averaged over 200 yds a game passing in an era that wasn't throw throw throw every single down. I don't know what his passer rating was but I bet it hovered around 100. We all know of course the next season he threw for 5,000+ yds and 48 TD and went to the SB. VY is not Marino, will never be, and maybe that's a good thing for the Titans hopes of winning a SB down the road. You look at the SB winning QB in the past 10 years...Brady, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, John Elway, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner...not all of those QBs are HoF material but VY doesn't resemble any of those guys. Maybe he is potentially better than some of those QBs but the ones mentioned are not running wild down the middle of the field...eventually that stuff catches up to you in the playoffs it seems.All this said, VY is a great story so far especially for the fans of the Titans...you lose a franchise QB like McNair and it looks like you might have a QB to lead the team for the next 10 years.

That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospects ability to pass the ball in the NFL.

Click to expand...

Since rushing yards and rushing TDs do count, I decided to look at this as fantasy points for all rookie QBs since 1960.

489 data points.

Vince Young is currently 5th on that list with 1 game to play. He needs just 4 fantasy points to finish third.

Here is the top 10 currently:

1. Jim Kelly

2. Peyton Manning

3. Warren Moon

4. Rick Mirer

5. Vince Young

6. Chris Weinke

7. Fran Tarkenton

8. Butch Songin

9. Ben Roethlisberger

10. Byron Leftwich

That's a pretty good list of QBs with a few duds sprinkled in.

David Dodds said:

and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

This I agree with, VY's legs have made him a better passer this year.And there is nothing wrong with that, Brett Favre is the best QB of the modern era IMHO and he does the same.

RedmondLonghorn said:

David Dodds said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

FANTASY PTS: ROOKIE QBs1) Jim Kelly - 271 (16.9/gm)2) Peyton Manning - 269 (16.8/gm)3) Warren Moon - 228 (14.3/gm)4) Rick Mirer - 225 (14.1/gm)5) Vince Young - 224 (16.0/gm)Based on whatever scoring system you use in the Data Dominator.

Click to expand...

Marino had 2200 yds, 20 TD, and 2 rush TDs over 11 games for a sparkling 18.7 points per game assuming passing TDs are 4 pts each.

Ministry of Pain said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

Only cause I know you can take a different viewpoint. I need to see a lot more of VY in the next couple of years before I would say he is going to be an elite QB. His passer rating is nothing special, and we have seen QBs come in as rookies and never develop beyond. Vick won in Green Bay for the 1st time in NFL history, took the Falcons to the NFC Championship IIRC, and now is being considered for replacement. VY has one thing going for him and that is he is winning football games. If he did not get lucky against the NYG, and pull some of these games out very late we would simply be talking about looking forward to his development next season but now because of the wins we are wanting to make VY bigger than what he actually is IMO. Dan Marino's rookie year...1983 mia | 11 | 173 296 58.4 2210 7.5 20TDs 6 Int | 28 45 2TDs2 of those 11 games he took over at halftime, I was at the game where he took over for Woodley against the Chiefs. In basically 9 full games he scored 22 TD, threw only 6 Interceptions and averaged over 200 yds a game passing in an era that wasn't throw throw throw every single down. I don't know what his passer rating was but I bet it hovered around 100. We all know of course the next season he threw for 5,000+ yds and 48 TD and went to the SB. VY is not Marino, will never be, and maybe that's a good thing for the Titans hopes of winning a SB down the road. You look at the SB winning QB in the past 10 years...Brady, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, John Elway, Ben Roethlisberger, Kurt Warner...not all of those QBs are HoF material but VY doesn't resemble any of those guys. Maybe he is potentially better than some of those QBs but the ones mentioned are not running wild down the middle of the field...eventually that stuff catches up to you in the playoffs it seems.All this said, VY is a great story so far especially for the fans of the Titans...you lose a franchise QB like McNair and it looks like you might have a QB to lead the team for the next 10 years.

Click to expand...

Marino was really good as a rookie, no doubt.I think it is a good bet that Vince Young won't break any of Marino's career passing records.

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics. With the Titans likely to retain Fisher, in possession of 11 draft picks and $41 mil to spend under the cap, I believe it will become easier for him to win games going forward.

From a FF perspective, IMHO his statistical floor is right about his 2006 average statistics, which is pretty astounding. I say his average numbers are his floor because he's had a noticeable and consistent increase in production as the season progressed (12, 12, 11, 17, 11, 17, 12, 29, 21, 22, 3, 27). If the numbers had been a more scattered (12, 21, 11, 29, 3, 12, 17, 27, 11, 17, 22, 12) I'd probably give the low end numbers more relevance in a forward looking projection. A no-brainer top 10 fantasy QB.

BigJim® said:

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics.

Click to expand...

Kordell Stewart was a difference maker and playmaker...not as quickly as VY, but he was both of these nonetheless. When his legs left, so did his career.

Ministry of Pain said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

David Dodds said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated. Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws. This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night. Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

FANTASY PTS: ROOKIE QBs1) Jim Kelly - 271 (16.9/gm)2) Peyton Manning - 269 (16.8/gm)3) Warren Moon - 228 (14.3/gm)4) Rick Mirer - 225 (14.1/gm)5) Vince Young - 224 (16.0/gm)Based on whatever scoring system you use in the Data Dominator.

Click to expand...

Marino had 2200 yds, 20 TD, and 2 rush TDs over 11 games for a sparkling 18.7 points per game assuming passing TDs are 4 pts each.

Click to expand...

Per the Data Dominator, Marino was 10th in Total points (only 11 games) but was second (to Jake Plummer) in PPG. Dan Marino is a pretty tough standard of comparison for a passer, since he is the best pure passer ever.

LHUCKS said:

That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospects ability to pass the ball in the NFL. I don't believe it's that easy. I guess my opinion is that most first round QBs coming into the league have work ethic and many have humility....not all of them become great QBs. Tim Couch was a hard worker and as far as I can tell didn't lack humility.

Click to expand...

They are significant contributing factors when projecting improvements in a player's game. What you are leaving out of the comparison of Couch to Vince is that VY's ceiling is considerably higher than Couch's, in fact, I would say he has as high as ceiling as any QB in the league. So what, then, will determine if VY reaches that ceiling? I see two things that could stop him:1) uncorrectable flaws. The sidearm delivery applies here. It does cause the ball to float. But we've already seen that he is actively limiting the problems caused by his unorthodox delivery. He is already minimizing the effect of throwing sidearm. Another could be the wonderlic score/intelligence, but I he has already dispelled the idea that he is not smart enough to understand complex defenses or schemes, or handle the increased speed of the pro game in his mind. How about taking snaps from center? Okay, this is a big issue, he has been a much lesser QB taking snaps from center than he has been from the shotgun this year. This one is an obstacle to hitting his ceiling, but I would say that its correctable.2) lack of work ethic or coachability. This is where Vince gets an A+. This is where he parts ways from Vick. This is why it's unwise to bet against this guy. Vince is going to get as much out of himself as humanly possible, it has been true at every level. When you ponder what is humanly possible from him, and then think that he's actually got the will to reach it, it's hard to contain your enthusiasm.I'll add one more thing that you are leaving out of your evaluation of Vince - he's got great arm strength, and he doesn't need to step into his throws to generate it, in fact, he can do it from just about any platform. Vince Young has an arsenal of weapons that we have not seen before in this league. If you are predicting him to be even average in any facet of his game over the course of career, then you are really predicting him to fail by falling considerably short of his ceiling/potential as a QB - and I firmly believe his work ethic and humility will simply not allow that to happen.

most of the incompletions this week were due to drops. I was extremely impressed with Vince's decision making and accuracy.

based on what I've seen from him this season, I think he is going to be an incredible QB. he's way ahead of schedule as far as I'm concerned.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Ministry of Pain said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

David Dodds said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...

What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated.

Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.

Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws.

This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night.

Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.

and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

FANTASY PTS: ROOKIE QBs

1) Jim Kelly - 271 (16.9/gm)

2) Peyton Manning - 269 (16.8/gm)

3) Warren Moon - 228 (14.3/gm)

4) Rick Mirer - 225 (14.1/gm)

5) Vince Young - 224 (16.0/gm)

Based on whatever scoring system you use in the Data Dominator.

Click to expand...

Marino had 2200 yds, 20 TD, and 2 rush TDs over 11 games for a sparkling 18.7 points per game assuming passing TDs are 4 pts each.

Click to expand...

Per the Data Dominator, Marino was 10th in Total points (only 11 games) but was second (to Jake Plummer) in PPG. Dan Marino is a pretty tough standard of comparison for a passer, since he is the best pure passer ever.

Click to expand...

You and I are going to get along great this off season. It's not a fair comparison to VY but I also think it gives a shot or dose of reality to everyone blowing the guy up. What Vince has done the 2nd half of this season is awesome, let's see what happens next year as defenses start to scheme the guy more. Right now, VY is a mystery for most teams...they aren't sure what he will do, but eventually VY will settle into a pocket passer, he has to, and that will be the real measure for this guy. I'm not rooting against VY btw, the NFL needs more QBs, and I think the $41 million in free cap space, and a return of Jeff Fisher would bode well for Vince next season. They should be able to get some weapons.

Does anyone know what RB/WR will be free agents?

LHUCKS said:

BigJim® said:

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics.

Click to expand...

Kordell Stewart was a difference maker and playmaker...not as quickly as VY, but he was both of these nonetheless. When his legs left, so did his career.

Click to expand...

So tell us why you think VY's career has a chance to go the same as Kordell's. Is it just because he's a running QB? What similarities do you see beyond that that makes you think VY will fail in the same way?

Sigmund Bloom said:

1) uncorrectable flaws. The sidearm delivery applies here. It does cause the ball to float. But we've already seen that he is actively limiting the problems caused by his unorthodox delivery. He is already minimizing the effect of throwing sidearm. Another could be the wonderlic score/intelligence, but I he has already dispelled the idea that he is not smart enough to understand complex defenses or schemes, or handle the increased speed of the pro game in his mind.

Click to expand...

To me these could be his significant limitations and IMHO are very difficult to correct/fix/overcome.He has proven he can be a good passing QB for a five game stretch, it remains to be seen if these limitations will limit him as his career moves forward. I don't think you can "dispell" any notion that many pro scouts had after a five game stretch of a rookie season...Eli Manning has regressed some this year as an example. Coordinators are going to start gameplanning for Vince more effectively and that is when we'll see whether he has the cognitive abilities to become an above average passer...I need more than a five game stretch that had a limited number of pass attempts.

Ministry of Pain said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Ministry of Pain said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

David Dodds said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

So Vince was average for a rookie passer...

What needs to be said here is that his playing style in college, the offense he ran in college, the talent he was surrounded by in Tennessee, and his preseason and training camp (among other things) all pointed to him being well below average *for a rookie*. In fact, many thought he shouldn't even play in his first year after seeing him in training camp. He does have identifiable weaknesses and problems, but they have been less of an obstacle to winning than anyone (except Vince) could have anticipated.

Vince Young has GREATLY EXCEEDED expectations. The trajectory of his career is way above where we thought it would be after year 1.

Vince Young has a tireless work ethic and the humility to work on his flaws.

This is only the beginning. We will hear a lot about VY working overtime with his coaches and teammates in the offseason. He will be VY 2.0 next year, and that will keep defensive coordinators up at night.

Enjoy the ride everyone, we watching a legendary NFL career unfold before our eyes.

Click to expand...

This is my conclusion as well. Sure he still throws sidearm and we know historically that is less accurate. But let's face it. He has exceeded everyone's expectations. Instead of just looking at passing stats, I would be curious what Vince's numbers look like if you compared fantasy points for all rookie QBs. I bet his rushing yards and TDs put him in the top 3 (and maybe the top spot) of all rookie QBs that played at least 8 games their rookie season.

and it's his ability to scramble and keep drives alive (plus his work ethic and ability to elevate others on his team) that could easily catapult him to a very good quarterback going forward.

Click to expand...

FANTASY PTS: ROOKIE QBs

1) Jim Kelly - 271 (16.9/gm)

2) Peyton Manning - 269 (16.8/gm)

3) Warren Moon - 228 (14.3/gm)

4) Rick Mirer - 225 (14.1/gm)

5) Vince Young - 224 (16.0/gm)

Based on whatever scoring system you use in the Data Dominator.

Click to expand...

Marino had 2200 yds, 20 TD, and 2 rush TDs over 11 games for a sparkling 18.7 points per game assuming passing TDs are 4 pts each.

Click to expand...

Per the Data Dominator, Marino was 10th in Total points (only 11 games) but was second (to Jake Plummer) in PPG. Dan Marino is a pretty tough standard of comparison for a passer, since he is the best pure passer ever.

Click to expand...

You and I are going to get along great this off season. It's not a fair comparison to VY but I also think it gives a shot or dose of reality to everyone blowing the guy up. What Vince has done the 2nd half of this season is awesome, let's see what happens next year as defenses start to scheme the guy more. Right now, VY is a mystery for most teams...they aren't sure what he will do, but eventually VY will settle into a pocket passer, he has to, and that will be the real measure for this guy. I'm not rooting against VY btw, the NFL needs more QBs, and I think the $41 million in free cap space, and a return of Jeff Fisher would bode well for Vince next season. They should be able to get some weapons.

Does anyone know what RB/WR will be free agents?

Click to expand...

Defensive Coordinators will have a full off-season to think about how to stop him, but he will also have a full off-season of mini-camps, film work, etc., plus an entire training camp of starter's reps. I would be shocked if Young doesn't improve more than the gameplans against him do.I think it is a pretty lean year for free agent WRs. I expect Tennessee to re-sign Henry and to get rid of Chris Brown.

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS said:

BigJim® said:

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics.

Click to expand...

Kordell Stewart was a difference maker and playmaker...not as quickly as VY, but he was both of these nonetheless. When his legs left, so did his career.

Click to expand...

So tell us why you think VY's career has a chance to go the same as Kordell's. Is it just because he's a running QB? What similarities do you see beyond that that makes you think VY will fail in the same way?

Click to expand...

He was a running QB(not to the extent of VY) with limited decision making ability. In fairness to Kordell, he had better mechanics than does VY.I'd bet on VY having the better career obviously, especially as a running QB, but I do think there is a strong possibility that his decsion making ability, accuracy and mechanics limit him going forward, much like Kordell's did.

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS said:

That being said, I'm not willing to concede that work ethic and humility are significant contributing factors when determining a prospects ability to pass the ball in the NFL. I don't believe it's that easy. I guess my opinion is that most first round QBs coming into the league have work ethic and many have humility....not all of them become great QBs. Tim Couch was a hard worker and as far as I can tell didn't lack humility.

Click to expand...

They are significant contributing factors when projecting improvements in a player's game. What you are leaving out of the comparison of Couch to Vince is that VY's ceiling is considerably higher than Couch's, in fact, I would say he has as high as ceiling as any QB in the league. So what, then, will determine if VY reaches that ceiling? I see two things that could stop him:1) uncorrectable flaws. The sidearm delivery applies here. It does cause the ball to float. But we've already seen that he is actively limiting the problems caused by his unorthodox delivery. He is already minimizing the effect of throwing sidearm. Another could be the wonderlic score/intelligence, but I he has already dispelled the idea that he is not smart enough to understand complex defenses or schemes, or handle the increased speed of the pro game in his mind. How about taking snaps from center? Okay, this is a big issue, he has been a much lesser QB taking snaps from center than he has been from the shotgun this year. This one is an obstacle to hitting his ceiling, but I would say that its correctable.2) lack of work ethic or coachability. This is where Vince gets an A+. This is where he parts ways from Vick. This is why it's unwise to bet against this guy. Vince is going to get as much out of himself as humanly possible, it has been true at every level. When you ponder what is humanly possible from him, and then think that he's actually got the will to reach it, it's hard to contain your enthusiasm.I'll add one more thing that you are leaving out of your evaluation of Vince - he's got great arm strength, and he doesn't need to step into his throws to generate it, in fact, he can do it from just about any platform. Vince Young has an arsenal of weapons that we have not seen before in this league. If you are predicting him to be even average in any facet of his game over the course of career, then you are really predicting him to fail by falling considerably short of his ceiling/potential as a QB - and I firmly believe his work ethic and humility will simply not allow that to happen.

Click to expand...

I totally agree. Personally I wasn't aware of his work ethic but when I think back to some of the greatest in any sport, they may have made it look easy on the court or field or course, if you look behind the scenes you can be sure they are putting in more time there than most anyone else.The guy is something special. To me, he's the best college football player I've ever seen and now watching this season, I believe he should be rookie of the year. Sure, Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Defensive Coordinators will have a full off-season to think about how to stop him, but he will also have a full off-season of mini-camps, film work, etc., plus an entire training camp of starter's reps. I would be shocked if Young doesn't improve more than the gameplans against him do.I think it is a pretty lean year for free agent WRs. I expect Tennessee to re-sign Henry and to get rid of Chris Brown.

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Me too. Brown can't stay. Henry makes an interesting RB for next season. The imergence of Young bodes well for him too. If they can improve the OL a bit, it might make an average supporting cast at the specialty poisitions look a lot better.

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Sure, Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team.

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Bush hasn't needed to, he is surrounded by a better team.If Michael Jordan played with Wilt Chamberlain would he have averaged 30 points a game? Probably not. Does that make him less of a great player? No.

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Sure, Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team.

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Of course this is an unfair comparison as well. Kerry Collins was brought in a few weeks before the start of the season with limited understanding of the offensive scheme and no chemistry with his line or receivers. He was set up to fail, and he did so.Bush came onto a team that already had one of the better backs in the league.Both have looked very good in the last half-dozen games, but Bush had no opportunity to be as valuable to his team as Young.

LHUCKS said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Sure, Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team.

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Bush hasn't needed to, he is surrounded by a better team.If Michael Jordan played with Wilt Chamberlain would he have averaged 30 points a game? Probably not. Does that make him less of a great player? No.

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Probably not Lhucks, but that's not what happened and New Orleans is where Reggie ended up. I knew right away that going to a team that already has Deuce McCallister on it would make it extra tough on him. Under the circumstances, I thought Reggie Bush has done well with all the different weapons they have in New Orleans but when compared to what Vince has been able to do in Tennesse, it falls a little short. That has a lot to do with opportunity, but so be it, that's the way it is this year.