Vince Young as a Passer (1 Viewer)

LHUCKS said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

1) uncorrectable flaws. The sidearm delivery applies here. It does cause the ball to float. But we've already seen that he is actively limiting the problems caused by his unorthodox delivery. He is already minimizing the effect of throwing sidearm. Another could be the wonderlic score/intelligence, but I he has already dispelled the idea that he is not smart enough to understand complex defenses or schemes, or handle the increased speed of the pro game in his mind.

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To me these could be his significant limitations and IMHO are very difficult to correct/fix/overcome.He has proven he can be a good passing QB for a five game stretch, it remains to be seen if these limitations will limit him as his career moves forward. I don't think you can "dispell" any notion that many pro scouts had after a five game stretch of a rookie season...Eli Manning has regressed some this year as an example. Coordinators are going to start gameplanning for Vince more effectively and that is when we'll see whether he has the cognitive abilities to become an above average passer...I need more than a five game stretch that had a limited number of pass attempts.

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If VY's cognitive abilities were as limited as you suggest, he would have looked a LOT worse than he did this year. How many times has he made bad plays this year because he just didn't understand the play or the defense he was facing? I've seen Vince correct his teammates on offense many times this year - do you think he would do that if he was still mentally struggling? If the bet is whether VY's brain will be his fatal flaw, then your horse is already way behind in this race. His perceived lack of intelligence was supposed to keep him from being able to be effective at all in his first year - lo and behold, he's 8-4, and he was the first rookie QB to start. I would argue that he has indeed dispelled the myth that his brain would keep his game from translating at the next level.

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Personally I wasn't aware of his work ethic

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Me neither. In fact, I have heard very little about this from any source other than some Texas/Titans fans on a message board. He may indeed possess these traits, and he may indeed be great one day, but in the meantime I am going to wait until I get this info from a more credible source.

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Sure, Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team.

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Of course this is an unfair comparison as well. Kerry Collins was brought in a few weeks before the start of the season with limited understanding of the offensive scheme and no chemistry with his line or receivers. He was set up to fail, and he did so.Bush came onto a team that already had one of the better backs in the league.Both have looked very good in the last half-dozen games, but Bush had no opportunity to be as valuable to his team as Young.

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I agree that he hasn't had the same opportunity as Young, but that's life. You can't penalize Young for that. Scottie Pippen may have been a top 5 player in the NBA in his prime, but he'd never get his real credit because he always played under Michael Jordan.Once we knew McCallister was going to be healthy and be the lead RB, I think everyone knew the only way Bush would win Rookie of the Year would be if nobody stepped up and took it. Well, someone did.

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Personally I wasn't aware of his work ethic

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Me neither. In fact, I have heard very little about this from any source other than some Texas/Titans fans on a message board. He may indeed possess these traits, and he may indeed be great one day, but in the meantime I am going to wait until I get this info from a more credible source.

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His work ethic was outstanding in college. If you don't want to take my word for it, you could do a quick Google search of stories about him during any of his off-seasons in college.Or you could listen to what Fisher and Chow have been saying in the press.

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

I agree that he hasn't had the same opportunity as Young, but that's life. You can't penalize Young for that.

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But you can punish Bush for it? Somehow I am not following your reasoning here.

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

I agree that he hasn't had the same opportunity as Young, but that's life. You can't penalize Young for that.

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But you can punish Bush for it? Somehow I am not following your reasoning here.

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Good grief. His initial statement was "Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team." It goes without saying a guy playing an every down role will have the advantage over a bit player in "making an impact to a team." That's not unfair, it's a statement of fact.

LHUCKS said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS said:

BigJim® said:

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics.

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Kordell Stewart was a difference maker and playmaker...not as quickly as VY, but he was both of these nonetheless. When his legs left, so did his career.

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So tell us why you think VY's career has a chance to go the same as Kordell's. Is it just because he's a running QB? What similarities do you see beyond that that makes you think VY will fail in the same way?

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He was a running QB(not to the extent of VY) with limited decision making ability. In fairness to Kordell, he had better mechanics than does VY.I'd bet on VY having the better career obviously, especially as a running QB, but I do think there is a strong possibility that his decsion making ability, accuracy and mechanics limit him going forward, much like Kordell's did.

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1. VY is not a running QB; he is a QB who can run.2. VY is an outstanding decision maker.3. VY has above average to very good passing accuracy.HE IS NOT KORDELL STEWART! HE IS NOT MICHAEL VICK!

BigJim® said:

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

I agree that he hasn't had the same opportunity as Young, but that's life. You can't penalize Young for that.

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But you can punish Bush for it? Somehow I am not following your reasoning here.

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Good grief. His initial statement was "Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team." It goes without saying a guy playing an every down role will have the advantage over a bit player in "making an impact to a team." That's not unfair, it's a statement of fact.

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But it's a ridiculous comparison to make. Different positions, different situations. Why bring Bush into this conversation at all?

fulham9 said:

LHUCKS said:

Sigmund Bloom said:

LHUCKS said:

BigJim® said:

I'm not trying to belittle the findings here, which are interesting. However, Vince young is a play-maker, and beyond that he is a difference-maker. At this stage of his development I find those facts more telling than his statistics.

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Kordell Stewart was a difference maker and playmaker...not as quickly as VY, but he was both of these nonetheless. When his legs left, so did his career.

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So tell us why you think VY's career has a chance to go the same as Kordell's. Is it just because he's a running QB? What similarities do you see beyond that that makes you think VY will fail in the same way?

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He was a running QB(not to the extent of VY) with limited decision making ability. In fairness to Kordell, he had better mechanics than does VY.I'd bet on VY having the better career obviously, especially as a running QB, but I do think there is a strong possibility that his decsion making ability, accuracy and mechanics limit him going forward, much like Kordell's did.

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1. VY is not a running QB; he is a QB who can run.2. VY is an outstanding decision maker.3. VY has above average to very good passing accuracy.HE IS NOT KORDELL STEWART! HE IS NOT MICHAEL VICK!

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Quite a stretch...

LHUCKS said:

True but we're talking about whether Vince Young will be a great passing QB, not a good passing QB.

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You keep moving the bar here, from VY will be a bust, to whether or not he will be a good/great passing QB.

BoulderBob said:

Quite a stretch...

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Welcome to the thread. You should check out the first page where Bloom is already declaring him a legend due to his incomparable work ethic.

I looked at VY's statistics this year by breaking his season down into 3 segments. The first was a 4-game segment and the second and third each included 5 games.

First four games:

45.9% completion percentage

4.7 YPA

2/4 TD/INT ratio

51.2 QB Rating

Middle five games:

45.5% completion percentage

5.9 YPA

4/4 TD/INT Ratio

66.8 QB Rating

Last 5 games:

63.7% completion percentage

7.2 YPA

6/3 TD/INT Ratio

90.4 QB Rating

Note on the QB rating I didn't recalculate it, but used the straight average over the 4 or 5 game spans.

Each of the statistical categories consistently improved over each segment (with the exception of completion % from segment 1 to 2). IMO, this indicates that the best is yet to come for Young. Comparing him to pro bowler Romo, Romo had a QB rating of only 85.0 over his last 5 games compared to 97.1 for the 5 games prior to that.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

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So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

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I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

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No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

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Well, I disagree.A lot of folks are very critical of Young's passing ability and some like to cite his modest passing stats and his less than scintillating QB Rating as evidence of his deficiency. Which would all be well and good, except that the appropriate group to compare it to is not other current NFL starting QBs, but other rookie QBs. Compared to other NFL rookie QBs through recent history, Young is right about average. The fact is, almost all rookie QBs are pretty bad passers, compared to veteran starters. I think this point gets lost in the discussion of Young because his prowess as a rusher makes people assume he can't pass (the Michael Vick comparison) and his unorthodox delivery makes people leap to conclusions about his accuracy.

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OK, so let me sum up.1. Rookie QBs as a general rule are bad passers.2. Vince Young has produced passing numbers that are comparable to those of average rookie QBs. Because average rookie QBs are bad passers, this means Young has been a bad passer this season.3. You showed that some QBs who were bad passers as rookies went on to great success, while others busted. You don't show any evidence that would cause us to think Young is more likely to fit the former category than the latter.So how exactly are you refuting the Young critics here?NOTE: I like Young, I have never posted anything critical of him. I just don't see that you are accomplishing what you think you are with your research.

Despyzer said:

BigJim® said:

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

I agree that he hasn't had the same opportunity as Young, but that's life. You can't penalize Young for that.

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But you can punish Bush for it? Somehow I am not following your reasoning here.

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Good grief. His initial statement was "Reggie Bush is a good player but in no way has he made the kind of impact Vince Young has for his team." It goes without saying a guy playing an every down role will have the advantage over a bit player in "making an impact to a team." That's not unfair, it's a statement of fact.

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But it's a ridiculous comparison to make. Different positions, different situations. Why bring Bush into this conversation at all?

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I read it to be a compliment to Bush, being mentionable in the discussion according to him.

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Click to expand...

I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.

If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

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No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

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Well, I disagree.A lot of folks are very critical of Young's passing ability and some like to cite his modest passing stats and his less than scintillating QB Rating as evidence of his deficiency. Which would all be well and good, except that the appropriate group to compare it to is not other current NFL starting QBs, but other rookie QBs.

Compared to other NFL rookie QBs through recent history, Young is right about average. The fact is, almost all rookie QBs are pretty bad passers, compared to veteran starters.

I think this point gets lost in the discussion of Young because his prowess as a rusher makes people assume he can't pass (the Michael Vick comparison) and his unorthodox delivery makes people leap to conclusions about his accuracy.

Click to expand...

OK, so let me sum up.1. Rookie QBs as a general rule are bad passers.

2. Vince Young has produced passing numbers that are comparable to those of average rookie QBs. Because average rookie QBs are bad passers, this means Young has been a bad passer this season.

3. You showed that some QBs who were bad passers as rookies went on to great success, while others busted. You don't show any evidence that would cause us to think Young is more likely to fit the former category than the latter.

So how exactly are you refuting the Young critics here?

NOTE: I like Young, I have never posted anything critical of him. I just don't see that you are accomplishing what you think you are with your research.

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Again, I was more presenting the data than I was trying to refute anything.I happen to think Young gets a bad rap for his passing and the statistics I put together showed that he is no worse (and no better) than average in this regard.

I could present all sorts of anecdotal evidence as to why it should improve, but the main point is that it isn't a legit criticism of him today, for a rookie.

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Personally I wasn't aware of his work ethic

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Me neither. In fact, I have heard very little about this from any source other than some Texas/Titans fans on a message board. He may indeed possess these traits, and he may indeed be great one day, but in the meantime I am going to wait until I get this info from a more credible source.

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"He studies, he works and he's disciplined. He has great leadership skills. He's determined, and because of that, the work ethic comes along with it. If you're willing to work at it like he is, you continue to get better," Chow said. http://www.nfl.com/teams/story/TEN/9696465"Young, whose work ethic matched his limitless talent, willed them a script for a national title sequel, showing them how much work needs to be done on blistering August afternoons and how the focus needs to continue through the fall." -Austin American Statesman http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3col_texas.html

"He is a great young man with outstanding character -- his work ethic, leadership and intangibles give him the tools to deal with being the leader of a team early in career." -nfl.com draft profile

http://www.nfl.com/draft/profiles/2006/young_vince

"A quarterback has to have that “it-factor” to win games, especially tight ones. He has to inspire his teammates to play for him. He has to give them the faith and belief that he can lead them to the promised land. He has to have that confidence in himself that he can win these types of games. Young’s work ethic and attitude was going to make Chow’s job easy." -sportspagemagazine.com

http://www.spmsportsinc.com/published/spmf...ce-can-pl.shtml

These were just a couple of articles from the first page of a google search for 'vince young' 'work ethic'.

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Click to expand...

I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.

If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

Click to expand...

No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

Click to expand...

Well, I disagree.A lot of folks are very critical of Young's passing ability and some like to cite his modest passing stats and his less than scintillating QB Rating as evidence of his deficiency. Which would all be well and good, except that the appropriate group to compare it to is not other current NFL starting QBs, but other rookie QBs.

Compared to other NFL rookie QBs through recent history, Young is right about average. The fact is, almost all rookie QBs are pretty bad passers, compared to veteran starters.

I think this point gets lost in the discussion of Young because his prowess as a rusher makes people assume he can't pass (the Michael Vick comparison) and his unorthodox delivery makes people leap to conclusions about his accuracy.

Click to expand...

OK, so let me sum up.1. Rookie QBs as a general rule are bad passers.

2. Vince Young has produced passing numbers that are comparable to those of average rookie QBs. Because average rookie QBs are bad passers, this means Young has been a bad passer this season.

3. You showed that some QBs who were bad passers as rookies went on to great success, while others busted. You don't show any evidence that would cause us to think Young is more likely to fit the former category than the latter.

So how exactly are you refuting the Young critics here?

NOTE: I like Young, I have never posted anything critical of him. I just don't see that you are accomplishing what you think you are with your research.

Click to expand...

Again, I was more presenting the data than I was trying to refute anything.I happen to think Young gets a bad rap for his passing and the statistics I put together showed that he is no worse (and no better) than average in this regard.

I could present all sorts of anecdotal evidence as to why it should improve, but the main point is that it isn't a legit criticism of him today, for a rookie.

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So it is fair to say he has been a bad passer this season.It is also fair to qualify that by saying he has been a bad passer this season, but he has been an average rookie passer.

Are we on the same page now?

ETA: My point is, if people have been knocking him for being a bad passer, it seems as if you agree. If they have been knocking him by saying he is a bad passer, even for a rookie, it seems as if your data proves that to be false. So it depends on which notion you are trying to refute as to whether or not you are right. Oh, but you're not really trying to refute anything are you?

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

Just Win Baby said:

RedmondLonghorn said:

But the real point here is that there isn't any evidence in Young's total numbers so far to suggest he won't develop into a very good NFL passer (the flip side is that there is little evidence he won't be a below average passer either).

Click to expand...

So the jury is still out. I'm not sure what is important about that finding...?It appears you want to use it to refute the notion that he is a bad passer... but plenty of QBs that had similar numbers as rookies went on to be bad passers, or at least bad QBs. So how does this prove your point?

Click to expand...

I went out of the way to be objective in my analysis and the initial post was as objective as I could make it in tone. I wasn't setting out to prove something and selecting the data that I could find to support my desired conclusion.I presented data which showed, pretty conclusively, that Young has been about average as a rookie passer. And I also concluded, somewhat surprisingly, that rookie passing statistics tend to look pretty similar on the whole, whether you are talking about future Hall of Famers or guys who bust out of the league in under two years.

If you find those conclusions worthless and the whole discussion pointless, my apologies.

Click to expand...

No, I'll apologize, as I didn't intend to convey that I found the discussion worthless. I found it interesting. But I felt an undercurrent of attempting to use these numbers to refute some Young critics, and I don't see that as a result of your analysis, that's all.

Click to expand...

Well, I disagree.A lot of folks are very critical of Young's passing ability and some like to cite his modest passing stats and his less than scintillating QB Rating as evidence of his deficiency. Which would all be well and good, except that the appropriate group to compare it to is not other current NFL starting QBs, but other rookie QBs.

Compared to other NFL rookie QBs through recent history, Young is right about average. The fact is, almost all rookie QBs are pretty bad passers, compared to veteran starters.

I think this point gets lost in the discussion of Young because his prowess as a rusher makes people assume he can't pass (the Michael Vick comparison) and his unorthodox delivery makes people leap to conclusions about his accuracy.

Click to expand...

OK, so let me sum up.1. Rookie QBs as a general rule are bad passers.

2. Vince Young has produced passing numbers that are comparable to those of average rookie QBs. Because average rookie QBs are bad passers, this means Young has been a bad passer this season.

3. You showed that some QBs who were bad passers as rookies went on to great success, while others busted. You don't show any evidence that would cause us to think Young is more likely to fit the former category than the latter.

So how exactly are you refuting the Young critics here?

NOTE: I like Young, I have never posted anything critical of him. I just don't see that you are accomplishing what you think you are with your research.

Click to expand...

Again, I was more presenting the data than I was trying to refute anything.I happen to think Young gets a bad rap for his passing and the statistics I put together showed that he is no worse (and no better) than average in this regard.

I could present all sorts of anecdotal evidence as to why it should improve, but the main point is that it isn't a legit criticism of him today, for a rookie.

Click to expand...

So it is fair to say he has been a bad passer this season.It is also fair to qualify that by saying he has been a bad passer this season, but he has been an average rookie passer.

Are we on the same page now?

ETA: My point is, if people have been knocking him for being a bad passer, it seems as if you agree. If they have been knocking him by saying he is a bad passer, even for a rookie, it seems as if your data proves that to be false. So it depends on which notion you are trying to refute as to whether or not you are right. Oh, but you're not really trying to refute anything are you?

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He's a bad passer in the same way that most other rookies are bad passers. That is a fair statement.He is a bad passer for a rookie QB. That is not a fair statement.

Let me start off by saying that this is the most reasoned, researched and non-emotional discourse on Vince Young I have read across several different BB's. I congratulate the posters who have contributed thus far. As another VY supporter let me just add too how the numbers on VY's passing his rookie year matter.

During the draft the most criticism we heard about Vince was that he was not a good passer and he was not smart enough to read NFL defenses. I believe that the numbers presented here help to dispel both of those assumptions. He has shown, under the tutelage of Chow and fisher, that he has been an acceptable passer this year so that at least have proven the anti-VY contingent to be wrong on those two issues especially since many of them felt it would take at least 3-4 years to coach him up to this point.

So now we are at the point of projecting at what level he will become for his career, and even more important to FF players how effective will he be next year? Let's take a look at some positive factors in Vince's favor.

1. He has a proven record of hard work and training in the offseason.

2. His steady improvement in passing this year has shown that he is coachable and does improve his passing and decision skills with good coaching and experience. (That can be seen not only this year but in his career at Texas as well. There was a big jump between his Sophomore and Junior years)

3. He has played 12 games and is playing stronger at the end. This shows that opposing coaches have been able to get him on tape but still have not figured him out. Some have even had a game against him and he was able to beat them the second time around. Remember, given a month Pete Carroll was supposed to be able to plan to beat Vince and could not do it.

4. His legs cannot be discounted as a weapon. Some seem to fixate only on VY's passing since good running qb's are rare, but that is a mistake especially in the short term. His legs give him an edge that pocket passers do not have and can drive OC's to drink.

5. He is not only the QB of the Titans he is their leader. Ask any of his teamates and they will give his the credit for their turnaround. Plus, how do you account for all of the 4th quarter come from behind victories? Could it be that the veterans on the team have complete trust in their rookie qb to make the throws and the decisions to win the game?

I love this debate -- it separates the visionaries from the sheep.

It's bold and risky to say that there's no accurate comparison for Vince, that no one's ever come to the NFL with his whole toolbox before, and that he's going to _dominate_ the NFL. It's much easier to just lump him in with Vick or Kordell or whoever you've seen before because he _must_ fit in some box somehow. That seems to be the prevailing attitude.

Yet, if you just watch him, you can see how unique, how unprecedented he really is. If you saw him, as Bloom pointed out, go from a brutally inept redshirt freshman passer to the guy who went 30-40 in the Rose Bowl, you'd know just how much he dedicates himself and works to improve. If you combine that with the improvement that he shows on the field every Sunday (the numbers have already been posted here), it's clear we have no idea how high his ceiling could be, but his floor is already way past where the skeptics thought he would top out.

Careers can derail or regress for _anyone_. It's never impossible for that to occur. But my goodness, if you can't see his greatness, his uniqueness, and his potential for more, either you haven't actually watched Titans games or you lack vision.

Unless you're a Houston Texans fan or he's playing your team that week, there's no reason not to enjoy the VY ride, people.

Despyzer said:

Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:

Personally I wasn't aware of his work ethic

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Me neither. In fact, I have heard very little about this from any source other than some Texas/Titans fans on a message board. He may indeed possess these traits, and he may indeed be great one day, but in the meantime I am going to wait until I get this info from a more credible source.

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Genius, pure genius. Don't listen to the people who follow his career the closest and would be in the best position to know what his work ethic is. Wait until you hear some talking head who did 5 minutes of research say it before you believe it. But wait, if you were paying any attention at all, you would see that tons of reporters and talking heads have already said it. The fact that you doubt Vince's work ethic is a pretty clear indication that you do not know much about him. Anyway, the amazing stat to me is that Vince is the 12th best scoring fantasy QB in my leagues this year despite not starting the first 3 games and despite a couple of stinkers against Jacksonville. That makes him a #1 QB in my 12 team league... as a rookie. It is going to be hard not to project Vince into the top 10 fantasy QB's for next season...and for many years to come.

Marc Faletti said:

It's bold and risky to say that there's no accurate comparison for Vince, that no one's ever come to the NFL with his whole toolbox before, and that he's going to _dominate_ the NFL. It's much easier to just lump him in with Vick or Kordell or whoever you've seen before because he _must_ fit in some box somehow. That seems to be the prevailing attitude.

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So to sum up, those who agree with you are "bold and risky" thinkers, and those who don't are lazy thinkers. Thanks for reasoning this out for us.

Hawk said:

Genius, pure genius. Don't listen to the people who follow his career the closest and would be in the best position to know what his work ethic is. Wait until you hear some talking head who did 5 minutes of research say it before you believe it.

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Ever heard of a little thing called "bias." It tends to warp a person's ability to see things clearly.

Hawk said:

Anyway, the amazing stat to me is that Vince is the 12th best scoring fantasy QB in my leagues this year despite not starting the first 3 games and despite a couple of stinkers against Jacksonville. That makes him a #1 QB in my 12 team league... as a rookie. It is going to be hard not to project Vince into the top 10 fantasy QB's for next season...and for many years to come.

Click to expand...

This would be a good indication of someone who is biased. If you were paying any attention at all you would know that Young may not have been the starter in the first three games, but he did receive a good amount of snaps and as many pass attempts as in some of the games that he did start.

Despyzer said:

Hawk said:

Genius, pure genius. Don't listen to the people who follow his career the closest and would be in the best position to know what his work ethic is. Wait until you hear some talking head who did 5 minutes of research say it before you believe it.

Click to expand...

Ever heard of a little thing called "bias." It tends to warp a person's ability to see things clearly.

Hawk said:

Anyway, the amazing stat to me is that Vince is the 12th best scoring fantasy QB in my leagues this year despite not starting the first 3 games and despite a couple of stinkers against Jacksonville. That makes him a #1 QB in my 12 team league... as a rookie. It is going to be hard not to project Vince into the top 10 fantasy QB's for next season...and for many years to come.

Click to expand...

This would be a good indication of someone who is biased. If you were paying any attention at all you would know that Young may not have been the starter in the first three games, but he did receive a good amount of snaps and as many pass attempts as in some of the games that he did start.

Click to expand...

Wk1: Collins 38 attempts, Young 4 attempts.

Wk2: Collins 19 attempts, Young 19 attempts.

Wk3: Collins 33 attempts, Young 0 attempts.

Yes, he was getting some snaps, but let's not get ahead of ourselces.

Colin Dowling said:

Wk1: Collins 38 attempts, Young 4 attempts.

Wk2: Collins 19 attempts, Young 19 attempts.

Wk3: Collins 33 attempts, Young 0 attempts.

Yes, he was getting some snaps, but let's not get ahead of ourselces.

Click to expand...

You might want to check those numbers again.Wk 1: 4 attempts

Wk 2: 19 attempts (more than in week 8 and 15, just shy of weeks 5, 11, and 16)

Wk 3: 29 attempts (more than all but two weeks as a starter)

Ourselces is someone I want to be way ahead of.

Despyzer said:

Colin Dowling said:

Wk1: Collins 38 attempts, Young 4 attempts.

Wk2: Collins 19 attempts, Young 19 attempts.

Wk3: Collins 33 attempts, Young 0 attempts.

Yes, he was getting some snaps, but let's not get ahead of ourselces.

Click to expand...

You might want to check those numbers again.Wk 1: 4 attempts

Wk 2: 19 attempts (more than in week 8 and 15, just shy of weeks 5, 11, and 16)

Wk 3: 29 attempts (more than all but two weeks as a starter)

Ourselces is someone I want to be way ahead of.

Click to expand...

Vince Young did not play in week 3. You are referring to week 4 against Dallas when he officially became the starter.

Despyzer said:

Hawk said:

Genius, pure genius. Don't listen to the people who follow his career the closest and would be in the best position to know what his work ethic is. Wait until you hear some talking head who did 5 minutes of research say it before you believe it.

Click to expand...

Ever heard of a little thing called "bias." It tends to warp a person's ability to see things clearly.

Hawk said:

Anyway, the amazing stat to me is that Vince is the 12th best scoring fantasy QB in my leagues this year despite not starting the first 3 games and despite a couple of stinkers against Jacksonville. That makes him a #1 QB in my 12 team league... as a rookie. It is going to be hard not to project Vince into the top 10 fantasy QB's for next season...and for many years to come.

Click to expand...

This would be a good indication of someone who is biased. If you were paying any attention at all you would know that Young may not have been the starter in the first three games, but he did receive a good amount of snaps and as many pass attempts as in some of the games that he did start.

Click to expand...

Knowledge outweighs bias when assessing a player's work ethic. Those who followed Vince career ona daily basis are in a much better position to know the guy's character and work ethic because they will have seen a whole lot of examples of it. Those who don't follow him that closely may not be biased, but anything they say is a guess because they don't KNOW enough about it since they are not paying as close attention to it. You don't see Longhorn fans on here touting the work ethic of Roy Williams do you? We love him because he was a Longhorn and he's talented, but he never had the work ethic Vince has. Its not like I am claiming every Longhorn player had a great work ethic and attitude because they didn't. However, Vince does, that's just how it is.And as for your last point, as Colin pointed out, Vince had 4 pass attempts against the Jets and didn't even play a snap against the Dolphins. See what I mean about knowledge? Regardless, my point was that he is already a #1 QB in scoring in fantasy football (at least in a 12 team league), and how much he played in the first 3 games is not all that relevant to that fact.

It's a ludicrous notion that fans from Austin, who have seen the development of Young in an up close and personal way, should have their credibility discounted in any way.

Just another thought on the stats...I know this started as a statistical analysis of only Young's passing stats, but since then the topic has broadened, so I'll just throw this out there, too:

In my league, the season points rankings from week 4 - 16, Young's time as a starter, show him as the 9th ranked qb in the league.

Starting after the week 7 bye, he is #4 for weeks 8 - 16, behind only Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and Carson Palmer.