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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (3 Viewers)

Sinn Fein said:
Also - I know we all sort of expected Jon to leave the Night's Watch, but really an odd decision to turn his back on his brothers - knowing what he knows is coming....
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Not really...he failed them. He tried to lead them and was murdered for it.

Why bother trying again? They clearly aren't on board with protecting the realm from the real threat. Time to move on and find people that are.

 
The realm needs a lot more than the night's watch to protect them- he is going to be more effective defending his brothers by leading the realm in their defense.

 
So Rickon's probably not long for this world, right?  Having trouble envisioning any scenario in which he makes it out alive. 

 
Abrantes said:
Hah. I didn't mind the changes to the ToJ dialogue. Changed for sorely-needed clarity. And of course they cut the flashback short. It's a huge scene, and there's a lot for Bran to show us yet, this early in the season. I've seen differing opinions, but the actual fight worked for me, and made sense.
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One thing that struck me as odd - My recall from the books is that Ned has always acknowledged that Howland Reed killed Dayne, and that Reed saved Ned's life by doing so. In the show, I think Bran indicates Ned lied to him about that, saying he (Ned) killed Dayne. I may be getting that wrong, but it seemed odd to me last night. Ned's so much about honor, it seemed a strange change to make him a liar about that.

 
Harry Manback said:
Not really...he failed them. He tried to lead them and was murdered for it.

Why bother trying again? They clearly aren't on board with protecting the realm from the real threat. Time to move on and find people that are.
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He also just purged the dissidents and left the leadership in loyal and capable hands. 

 
CletiusMaximus said:
One thing that struck me as odd - My recall from the books is that Ned has always acknowledged that Howland Reed killed Dayne, and that Reed saved Ned's life by doing so. In the show, I think Bran indicates Ned lied to him about that, saying he (Ned) killed Dayne. I may be getting that wrong, but it seemed odd to me last night. Ned's so much about honor, it seemed a strange change to make him a liar about that.
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I think you are right about the book stuff, but if I remember right, Bran said he heard the story a thousand times.  Not necessarily that Ned told him the story a thousand times.  

 
It was probably a situation where Ned just let the story be repeated without really correcting anyone.  Wouldn't do any good to tell anyone what really happened.  It opens Howland reed up to criticism for stabbing a great and Noble knight like Dayne in the back.

 
CletiusMaximus said:
One thing that struck me as odd - My recall from the books is that Ned has always acknowledged that Howland Reed killed Dayne, and that Reed saved Ned's life by doing so. In the show, I think Bran indicates Ned lied to him about that, saying he (Ned) killed Dayne. I may be getting that wrong, but it seemed odd to me last night. Ned's so much about honor, it seemed a strange change to make him a liar about that.
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Not a book reader, but this idea of Ned lying about the fight could also help establish that Ned wasn't quite as honest as we thought. It shows Ned wasn't above lying. Particularly if the lie was protecting the honor of someone close to Ned.

 
psychobillies said:
I think you are right about the book stuff, but if I remember right, Bran said he heard the story a thousand times.  Not necessarily that Ned told him the story a thousand times.  
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Just watched it again. This is correct, Bran says he has heard the story a thousand times, that doesn't mean it was coming from Ned.  Bran says he never talked about Lyanna, so it's pretty doubtful he would be bringing up the Tower of Joy very often.  

Enjoyed the swordfight.  Thought Dayne using two swords might look stupid but it was actually pretty cool and believable.  Thought Ned might have Ice, but I guess I don't know that he ever carried it during the war in the book either.  

 
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thecatch said:
So Rickon's probably not long for this world, right?  Having trouble envisioning any scenario in which he makes it out alive. 
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Yeah, I don't see it either.

There is also a guy who has been releasing spoilers each week, and he "theorized" that Ramsay turns him into an arrow pincushion before the battle of the North.
 
Seems a little weird the Umbers, who are theoretically more loyal to the Starks than Boltons, wouldn't want to at least touch base with Jon to see what the deal is before giving up the Stark heir to the Boltons, right?

 
Ramsey mentions Umbers, Karstarks and Manderlys.  We have the Umbers and Karstarks....we'll get the Manderlys, and the Manderlys will be the one sowing the seeds of dissent within Ramsey's faction.   

 
thecatch said:
Seems a little weird the Umbers, who are theoretically more loyal to the Starks than Boltons, wouldn't want to at least touch base with Jon to see what the deal is before giving up the Stark heir to the Boltons, right?
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Mr. Umber mentioned his displeasure with Jon's handiling of the Wildling situation.  Can you blame him? 

 
Thunderlips said:
Mr. Umber mentioned his displeasure with Jon's handiling of the Wildling situation.  Can you blame him? 
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Right, but we're also talking about getting into bed with the family that killed your dad. Even if Umber Junior didn't like Umber Senior very much, clearly they weren't thrilled about the Boltons because the Umbers hadn't joined up until last night's episode. 

 
TLEF316 said:
It was probably a situation where Ned just let the story be repeated without really correcting anyone.  Wouldn't do any good to tell anyone what really happened.  It opens Howland reed up to criticism for stabbing a great and Noble knight like Dayne in the back.
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Not really.  Dayne chose to fight 5 gives or whatever.  Can't face all of them at once.  

 
That one felt like somewhat of a let down. I realize the Bran flashbacks are complete exposition, but the tower of joy scene came off a bit too expositiony nonetheless. The raven/Bran comments were barely one step removed from voiceover. "That's Howland Reed, Meera's father" - I realize it had to be indicated, particularly for those who haven't read the books, but it still seemed a bit clumsy to me. Another thing about that scene - I thought you had to be relatively close to a weirwood to "speak with the gods". Maybe young Ned hearing Bran speaks to how powerful Bran is?

Also, doesn't the raven saying he's been there a thousand years preclude him from being bloodraven?

I'll hold out hope that the whole thing with Rickon is a ruse, and that's some other poor wolf's head they just delivered. Didn't seem big enough to be shaggydog's - right? :oldunsure: Doesn't look good there though, and given the minimal amount of time Rickon's gotten in this show, it wouldn't surprise me if they just use him as a plot device to force Jon to do stuff.

Didn't Arya get over on the chick with the stick in the lying game by not giving her the whole list? Is that how Jaqen knew she'd graduated?

 
thecatch said:
Right, but we're also talking about getting into bed with the family that killed your dad. Even if Umber Junior didn't like Umber Senior very much, clearly they weren't thrilled about the Boltons because the Umbers hadn't joined up until last night's episode. 
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True. Even in the book though, half the Umbers were fighting for Ramsey...half against.

 
Thunderlips said:
Mr. Umber mentioned his displeasure with Jon's handiling of the Wildling situation.  Can you blame him? 
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But Jon is Night's Watch, and a Stark *******, not a full-blown Stark.  Does it really add up that they would turn their back on the Starks because of the actions of Jon Snow?  

 
Not only did they change the dialogue in the Tower of Joy scene, but they had Arthur Dayne spout off the same thing as Mance pre-burning.  I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.  I don't recall that at all from the books, though it may be there.

 
parrot said:
But Jon is Night's Watch, and a Stark *******, not a full-blown Stark.  Does it really add up that they would turn their back on the Starks because of the actions of Jon Snow?  
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It might not soley be out of turning their backs on the Starks.  It might be out of preservation of their way of life and what they believed.  Umber hatred for The Wildlings outweighs loyalty for a House that is on their last legs at the very time a strong House is needed to lead. 

 
Thunderlips said:
It might not soley be out of turning their backs on the Starks.  It might be out of preservation of their way of life and what they believed.  Umber hatred for The Wildlings outweighs loyalty for a House that is on their last legs at the very time a strong House is needed to lead. 
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Interesting, however, that Littlejon hates the Wildlings enough to align himself with Ramsay, yet he espouses their beliefs when he goes all eff kneeling and eff tradition, etc.

 
I wonder if there is any chance that Rickon (and osha) plays the Mance role, and starts to create havoc from within Winterfell.  Seems unlikely, but it also seems like there should have been some purpose for the role in the books.

 
Gr00vus said:
That one felt like somewhat of a let down. I realize the Bran flashbacks are complete exposition, but the tower of joy scene came off a bit too expositiony nonetheless. The raven/Bran comments were barely one step removed from voiceover. "That's Howland Reed, Meera's father" - I realize it had to be indicated, particularly for those who haven't read the books, but it still seemed a bit clumsy to me. Another thing about that scene - I thought you had to be relatively close to a weirwood to "speak with the gods". Maybe young Ned hearing Bran speaks to how powerful Bran is?

Also, doesn't the raven saying he's been there a thousand years preclude him from being bloodraven?

I'll hold out hope that the whole thing with Rickon is a ruse, and that's some other poor wolf's head they just delivered. Didn't seem big enough to be shaggydog's - right? :oldunsure: Doesn't look good there though, and given the minimal amount of time Rickon's gotten in this show, it wouldn't surprise me if they just use him as a plot device to force Jon to do stuff.

Didn't Arya get over on the chick with the stick in the lying game by not giving her the whole list? Is that how Jaqen knew she'd graduated?
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Yeah, I need to rewatch the episode - did she ask who was on the list or was left on the list?  Who did Arya leave off in her answer?

 
Pretty sure, at this point, Rikkon is as good as dead. Looks like everything is lining up for Jon to be Rhaegar's *******, not Ned's. Anything other than that will be a shock.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
Interesting, however, that Littlejon hates the Wildlings enough to align himself with Ramsay, yet he espouses their beliefs when he goes all eff kneeling and eff tradition, etc.
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Could be that the Umbers have some plot to betray the Boltons (possibly involving Rickon?) and that's why he refused to actually kneel and swear any oaths.

 
Cold Dead Hands said:
Pretty sure, at this point, Rikkon is as good as dead. Looks like everything is lining up for Jon to be Rhaegar's *******, not Ned's. Anything other than that will be a shock.
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I don't know if Jon is a *******. Based on what Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying it may well be that Elia knew what Rhaegar was going to do. I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married. 

 
CBusAlex said:
Could be that the Umbers have some plot to betray the Boltons (possibly involving Rickon?) and that's why he refused to actually kneel and swear any oaths.
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Could be.  In the books, I tend to believe some version of the Great Northern Conspiracy exists.  I believe they've abandoned it for the show.  :shrug:

 
sn0mm1s said:
I don't know if Jon is a *******. Based on what Daenerys saw in the House of the Undying it may well be that Elia knew what Rhaegar was going to do. I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna and Rhaegar were secretly married. 
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I think that's where Sam comes in.  He'll stumble upon some legitimate claim of Rheagar and Lyanna's at the Citadel. 

 
In regards to the book v. show...I don't think there's going to be drastic changes in characters; particularly in life v. death.  To that, Rickon could go either way. In the book,   Rickon's importance is tied to Manderlys (and by extension, Stannis') importance.  That doesn't bode well for him in the show.  

I wouldn't be surprised if the book had Stannis survive the Battle of Winterfell, be tortured by Ramsey and then burned on the battlefield in the manner that we're seeing the show previews and just have Rickon dead on Skagos.  

 
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parrot said:
"Who else was on Arya Stark's funny little list?"

"Cersei Lannister, Gregor Clegane, Walder Frey."
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Did the faceless girl perk up when she heard Arya mention walder Frey?  As if she knew him and was surprised he was on Arya's hit list?  Didn't the faceless girl mention she was the daughter of a strong house once, only to retract her statement since she is no one like all the rest of their cult.  

 
Did the faceless girl perk up when she heard Arya mention walder Frey?  As if she knew him and was surprised he was on Arya's hit list?  Didn't the faceless girl mention she was the daughter of a strong house once, only to retract her statement since she is no one like all the rest of their cult.  

 
What about Dire Wolf life/death as a foreshadowing of the particular character?  Robbs DEAD.....Arya's R-U-N-N-O-F-T.....Jon's ALIVE.......Rickons(show) DEAD....Sansas......DEAD.

 
Thunderlips said:
What about Dire Wolf life/death as a foreshadowing of the particular character?  Robbs DEAD.....Arya's R-U-N-N-O-F-T.....Jon's ALIVE.......Rickons(show) DEAD....Sansas......DEAD.
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Jon's wolf being named Ghost sure seems like less of a coincidence now.

 
Steed said:
 

Did the faceless girl perk up when she heard Arya mention walder Frey?  As if she knew him and was surprised he was on Arya's hit list?  Didn't the faceless girl mention she was the daughter of a strong house once, only to retract her statement since she is no one like all the rest of their cult.  
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When Arya recites the list it is voiced over one of the fight/training scenes.  The faceless girl does get kind of a weird look at that moment but I think it's because Arya gets up when she expected her to stay down.  It's not when Arya is actually talking about the list.  

 
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Thunderlips said:
In regards to the book v. show...I don't think there's going to be drastic changes in characters; particularly in life v. death.  To that, Rickon could go either way. In the book,   Rickon's importance is tied to Manderlys (and by extension, Stannis') importance.  That doesn't bode well for him in the show.  

I wouldn't be surprised if the book had Stannis survive the Battle of Winterfell, be tortured by Ramsey and then burned on the battlefield in the manner that we're seeing the show previews and just have Rickon dead on Skagos.  
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I think Rickon has to live in the books unless Bran magically heals. Rickon is the last Stark and the Starks (according to Jojen's Green Dreams) are supposed to come back to power.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I hope it doesn't play out like that.  Or least he has something more to his story in Oldtown than that. 
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With the books, I can only assume he is going to be mixed up with Marwyn and possibly a foil to whatever the Faceless men/other maesters are planning. It is hinted that Jaqen is in the Citadel and that one of the goals of the maesters is to remove dragons (and in all likelihood magic) from the world. 

 
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