The Jora scene was pretty awful in that regard.That was probably the worst episode of the series, story/writing wise, for me.
It was pretty much all bad. But the worst was making time travel a real thing. This could have been the jump the shark episode. And if this trash was coming from Martin, I can understand why he's having problems finishing the books.The Jora scene was pretty awful in that regard.
The show people said that origin for Hodor came directly from Martin, that was his vision from the beginning.It was pretty much all bad. But the worst was making time travel a real thing. This could have been the jump the shark episode. And if this trash was coming from Martin, I can understand why he's having problems finishing the books.
The show people said that origin for Hodor came directly from Martin, that was his vision from the beginning.It was pretty much all bad. But the worst was making time travel a real thing. This could have been the jump the shark episode. And if this trash was coming from Martin, I can understand why he's having problems finishing the books.
I saw that mentioned in the other thread. Disappointing if true.The show people said that origin for Hodor came directly from Martin, that was his vision from the beginning.
It sets up the stage to have Bran be behind all the "voices" throughout the story. Mad King was hearing Bran whisper, etc.I saw that mentioned in the other thread. Disturbing if true.
Which would be bad writing, opening up a whole bunch of problems.It sets up the stage to have Bran be behind all the "voices" throughout the story. Mad King was hearing Bran whisper, etc.
Agree here. Disappointed to see that the Hold the Door is from him.It was pretty much all bad. But the worst was making time travel a real thing. This could have been the jump the shark episode. And if this trash was coming from Martin, I can understand why he's having problems finishing the books.
The other thread has that covered pretty much. But, yes, between stupid play Sansa, the new Red Woman, and the crummy writing, it was a good episode for busts.I am surprised no one has talked about the very nice boobs we saw this episode. (or did I miss that conversation?)
I don't think anyone actually traveled through time.It was pretty much all bad. But the worst was making time travel a real thing. This could have been the jump the shark episode. And if this trash was coming from Martin, I can understand why he's having problems finishing the books.
Outweighed by what else we had to see in that scene IMO.I am surprised no one has talked about the very nice boobs we saw this episode. (or did I miss that conversation?)
Someone has the ability to effect/alter events that happened in the past. it may not be time travel per se, but it's a lousy storytelling device that rarely gets used well and usually results in lots of believability problems.I don't think anyone actually traveled through time.
I personally thought the Hodor thing was brilliant.
This is one example of a time paradox (I doubt we'll see another) and the show seems to handle it well enough. What happens, in the past, the present, and the future is fixed. Hodor's fate isn't the result of any aspect of Bran's agency. It's just something that was supposed to happen. Not much "wimbly wombly timey-wimey" hand waving needed.Someone has the ability to effect/alter events that happened in the past. it may not be time travel per se, but it's a lousy storytelling device that rarely gets used well and usually results in lots of believability problems.
The writers are walking a tightrope with this and every other element of magic on the show. Very easy to over do it.Someone has the ability to effect/alter events that happened in the past. it may not be time travel per se, but it's a lousy storytelling device that rarely gets used well and usually results in lots of believability problems.
Willas doesn't become Hodor unless Bran, who wasn't even born at the time, wargs into him while traveling in the past to the extent that Willas/Hodor can hear Meera from the future continually yelling "hold the door" to him and gets to see his own death. Whether it was "supposed to happen" or not, the mechanism by which it does happen (Bran - or anyone - having the ability to effect past events) is poorly conceived and results in weakening the believability of the story.This is one example of a time paradox (I doubt we'll see another) and the show seems to handle it well enough. What happens, in the past, the present, and the future is fixed. Hodor's fate isn't the result of any aspect of Bran's agency. It's just something that was supposed to happen. Not much "wimbly wombly timey-wimey" hand waving needed.
But Bran didn't alter the past.The narrative in which this season has presented Bran's ability leaves me to think that this simply isn't "what happens, happens". I don't think they go thru the trouble of having the Three Eyed Raven specifically tell him you can't alter the past and then (in two instances) give us situations that might contradict that.
What event did Bran alter?Someone has the ability to effect/alter events that happened in the past. it may not be time travel per se, but it's a lousy storytelling device that rarely gets used well and usually results in lots of believability problems.
I get that everyone draws their own lines somewhere, but I just don't see how you can be fine with greenseers having the ability to warg and for greenseers having the ability to witness events in the past and then draw your line at what happened here on the grounds of plausibility.Willas doesn't become Hodor unless Bran, who wasn't even born at the time, wargs into him while traveling in the past to the extent that Willas/Hodor can hear Meera from the future continually yelling "hold the door" to him and gets to see his own death. Whether it was "supposed to happen" or not, the mechanism by which it does happen (Bran - or anyone - having the ability to effect past events) is poorly conceived and results in weakening the believability of the story.
I edited my post above such that it addresses this notion. To reiterate, I enjoyed the story up to this point in spite of the fantasy stuff, as it was kept mostly on the periphery, because the characters and the rest of the setting/history were so interesting. But introducing a character that can alter history, speak to people in the past, affect past events is a pretty sharp dividing line for me, yes. It's the boundary between implausible and slightly dumb.I get that everyone draws their own lines somewhere, but I just don't see how you can be fine with greenseers having the ability to warg and for greenseers having the ability to witness events in the past and then draw your line at what happened here on the grounds of plausibility.
You may be right. I thought Martin had said a main driver for the story was that it would be a hopped up war of the roses on a global scale. All I know is, when I watched the first episode, before ever having read any of the books, I almost turned it off immediately thinking, "oh great another ####### zombie show." Fortunately I stuck with it, because the non-fantasy parts of the book and show have been pretty great. And I could live with a zombies vs. dragons emphasis to the end game. But if this is going to become back to the future at this point, I'll definitely have a lower opinion of the remainder of the story.I guess it's always seemed clear to me, from the books and the show, that the "realistic" elements would gradually be overtaken. That's the theme of the series. Characters and houses that are focused on pragmatic, political conflicts while very few characters realize that there is actually a much bigger conflict to be resolved. The books and the show begin with the white walkers.
I'm not sure about this.What event did Bran alter?
Didn't the 3 eyed raven tell him that there was no past/present/future? Bran didn't cause that seizure, he just witnessed it. He didn't warg into Hodor in the past, only the present.
I don't think he warged into young Willas.I'm not sure about this.
Bran warged into young Willas in the past, so that present Bran & Co can escape. This fried Hodor's brain from that point forward.
I suppose we can dismiss this as "it was destined to happen" as to not give too much power to Bran.
Regardless, young Willas got Hodored back when he was young Willas, before Bran was born, as a result of Bran warging into Willas/Hodor. So whatever Bran did, it effected something/someone in his past that he was able to access via his tree powers (seeing it in writing like that just makes it more evident how dumb/sloppy this is). Any way you slice it, I can't buy it and it casts the meaningfulness of rest of what happens in the story into doubt because of the repercussions of the notion that there are people with that capability.I don't think he warged into young Willas.
Then the question becomes, why did Willas's eyes go white and fall down at that moment in the past? And why did he yell "Hold the door" as he shook? Something connected those actions with the present events. If not Bran, than what's the cause?I don't think he warged into young Willas.
That's why I'm hoping it's a "destiny" thing rather than an active ability. Bran would be overpowered if he can go back and change stuff.Regardless, young Willas got Hodored back when he was young Willas, before Bran was born, as a result of Bran warging into Willas/Hodor. So whatever Bran did, it effected something/someone in his past that he was able to access via his tree powers. Any way you slice it, I can't buy it and it casts the meaningfulness of rest of what happens in the story into doubt because of the repercussions of the notion that there are people with that capability.
Maybe Willa's had the power and saw his own future.Then the question becomes, why did Willas's eyes go white and fall down at that moment in the past? And why did he yell "Hold the door" as he shook? Something connected those actions with the present events. If not Bran, than what's the cause?
I'm gonna have to rewatch that episode to see if I missed anything.
You're making an irrelevant distinction. Yes, we're seeing the story as it played out - as a result of whatever Bran and others like him did to alter events through time. That doesn't change the story for us, the readers/viewers. But it definitely changed things from how they likely would have been for the people in the world of the story. Who's to say whether the previous green seers didn't effect past events? How would you know? The mechanism of allowing people the capability to alter/effect past events creates tons of plot holes, results in insolvable conundrums, etc. that make the work lesser.Let's be clear what "changing the past would mean."
It would mean that there is an event that we all know has happened in the show or hasn't happened in the show that will now be changed. That hasn't happened. Hodor was struck dumb in the show. Whatever Bran does in the Tower of Joy flashbacks, it's not going to change who John is. Ned will still come home with him. We're not going to have some change happen where Jaime never kills Aerys. Greenseers aren't active agents changing history. Otherwise, Bloodraven would have been just fixing things for the past hundreds of years. Greenseers are servants of history, the Old Gods, fate, whatever you want to call it. They are no less pawns to it than Hodor was.
OK. See you next week.Regardless, young Willas got Hodored back when he was young Willas, before Bran was born, as a result of Bran warging into Willas/Hodor. So whatever Bran did, it effected something/someone in his past that he was able to access via his tree powers (seeing it in writing like that just makes it more evident how dumb/sloppy this is). Any way you slice it, I can't buy it and it casts the meaningfulness of rest of what happens in the story into doubt because of the repercussions of the notion that there are people with that capability.
What if he thought he could go back and change things ala him trying to talk to the Mad King but being the cause of the Mad Kings madness?That's why I'm hoping it's a "destiny" thing rather than an active ability. Bran would be overpowered if he can go back and change stuff.
There is no alternative past and no alternative future. We're talking about a world of prophecies. Where the future can be seen in the flames (even if it is often misinterpreted). Within the universe that has been created, that future is every bit as fixed as the past. We've even had characters tell us that. There is no version of history that has or could exist where Bran does not strike Hodor dumb. That is Bran and Hodor's destiny. Whether that effects your enjoyment of the work or not, it's an essential theme of the story Martin is telling. The universe is ambivalent to his character's free will. It is ambivalent to whether a person is a good or evil (the Many Faced God delivers death to both).You're making an irrelevant distinction. Yes, we're seeing the story as it played out - as a result of whatever Bran and others like him did to alter events through time. That doesn't change the story for us, the readers/viewers. But it definitely changed things from how they likely would have been for the people in the world of the story. Who's to say whether the previous green seers didn't effect past events? How would you know? The mechanism of allowing people the capability to alter/effect past events creates tons of plot holes, results in insolvable conundrums, etc. that make the work lesser.
They didn't alter the events as we witnessed them. There may be other quantum universes where other things happen but we are seeing a single threaded universe where those things did/will happen. Given the three-eyed raven's reaction either it's never happened before or there are bad things that can happen from it. Regardless, it's not common or easy and unlikely to be overused. In fact, the way it was used, in that one small but significant moment speaks more to the brilliance of the writing.You're making an irrelevant distinction. Yes, we're seeing the story as it played out - as a result of whatever Bran and others like him did to alter events through time. That doesn't change the story for us, the readers/viewers. But it definitely changed things from how they likely would have been for the people in the world of the story. Who's to say whether the previous green seers didn't effect past events? How would you know? The mechanism of allowing people the capability to alter/effect past events creates tons of plot holes, results in insolvable conundrums, etc. that make the work lesser.
Dont talk about my new GoT gf like that.So, looked it up. Eline Powell is the actress. Not bad in real life either.
https://www.google.com/search?q=eline+powell&biw=1778&bih=841&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiImpOG5PDMAhUWKFIKHWn1CiAQ_AUIBygB&dpr=0.9
But we don't know if she drinks!!!Dont talk about my new GoT gf like that.
The assumption is everyone does unless proven otherwise.But we don't know if she drinks!!!
So it's all pointless then - why bother with the time travel at all? It just becomes a crummy exposition mechanism, while still undermining believability. So, throwing seeming time travel into the mix is an even worse writing decision than I already thought. I'm not sure I buy your whole determinism thing, but if you're right that doesn't really make things better in regard to this.There is no alternative past and no alternative future. We're talking about a world of prophecies. Where the future can be seen in the flames (even if it is often misinterpreted). Within the universe that has been created, that future is every bit as fixed as the past. We've even had characters tell us that. There is no version of history that has or could exist where Bran does not strike Hodor dumb. That is Bran and Hodor's destiny. Whether that effects your enjoyment of the work or not, it's an essential theme of the story Martin is telling. The universe is ambivalent to his character's free will. It is ambivalent to whether a person is a good or evil (the Many Faced God delivers death to both).
It doesn't matter whether John wants to be Azor Ahai reincarnated or not. It's his destiny (and not Stannis's destiny no matter how much he wanted it to be). It's not a possible conclusion provided John makes the right decisions. It is what will definitely happen. Even John's death and abandonment of the Night's Watch cannot change his destiny. This is what the even the best "players" in the Game of Thrones do not understand. It's specifically what the Red Priestess lectured Varys about in the episode.
Right, and in this universe, those things happened because a guy travelled back to a time he before he was born, mind ####ed a kid into becoming a halfwit by having his pal yell at him to hold the door and witness his own death at the hands of zombies so he could save said kid 40 years later. One instance of that is dumb enough, whether or not it becomes common or overused subsequently. It already pokes holes in the believability of the whole universe being presented.They didn't alter the events as we witnessed them. There may be other quantum universes where other things happen but we are seeing a single threaded universe where those things did/will happen. Given the three-eyed raven's reaction either it's never happened before or there are bad things that can happen from it. Regardless, it's not common or easy and unlikely to be overused. In fact, the way it was used, in that one small but significant moment speaks more to the brilliance of the writing.
You're way too worked up over this.So it's all pointless then - why bother with the time travel at all? It just becomes a crummy exposition mechanism, while still undermining believability. So, throwing seeming time travel into the mix is an even worse writing decision than I already thought. I'm not sure I buy your whole determinism thing, but if you're right that doesn't really make things better in regard to this.