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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners


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10 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Right. My point being - there was no weirwood there, yet Bran could see what happened there. My initial understanding of his capabilities was that there needed to be a wierwood present for the 3 eyed raven to see stuff near the tree, and anything that didn't happen in proximity to a tree wasn't available for viewing. But this would be (another?) example that that's not the case - Bran can see anything anywhere that's happened in the past or is happening in the present. It would make him ridiculously powerful (like he said, he knows everything), in a narrative destabilizing kind of way - basically the same problem I had with the whole Hodor deal.

A Dance With Dragons:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

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Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

A Dance With Dragons:

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

Nice get. I need to read these books again.

Still a problem. How do you have a compelling story when there's a character in it who knows everything?

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14 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

Nice get. I need to read these books again.

Still a problem. How do you have a compelling story when there's a character in it who knows everything?

By never telling the story from his perspective once he gains that ability. Oh, and make him all aloof and weird so he doesn't interact with anyone. 

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2 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

By never telling the story from his perspective once he gains that ability. Oh, and make him all aloof and weird so he doesn't interact with anyone. 

Same reason we never get Baelish and Varys POV chapters. They're purveyors of information.  We're not meant to know what they know.

Also, by making him need to learn how to do it, so he's only getting to be good at it when, say, the last seven episodes chapters really get into the meat of stuff that's important rather than lousy family arguments and retribution on petty lords. 

 

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9 hours ago, CletiusMaximus said:

If Jon is Neds bastard, he's a Snow, same with other families/houses except the Targs. I looked it up some time ago. Its confusing, but the Targs don't really have a bastard name so use birthplace. (I think) 

Targs follow the same rules as other bastards. Brynden Rivers (the 3-eyed crow) was a Targ bastard. The Blackfyre Rebellion was led by as bastard Targ  (originally a Waters) that was legitimized. 

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4 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

It makes the whole thing with Martells even more tragic. They weren't even legitimate heirs and she wasn't his wife when the Lannisters massacred them. I wonder if Elia knew about the annulment and/or all Rheagar's visions/plans.

In the books it think Elia knew. I also think that Rheagar took a 2nd wife (no annulment) as that is what the original Aegon did (married both his sisters). In one of Dany's visions we see Rheagar telling Elia that they needed a 3rd head of the dragon and we also knew that Elia was frail and probably couldn't survive another childbirth (from Selmy?) so I suspect she was aware of Rheagar's plans.

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6 minutes ago, sn0mm1s said:

In the books it think Elia knew. I also think that Rheagar took a 2nd wife (no annulment) as that is what the original Aegon did (married both his sisters). In one of Dany's visions we see Rheagar telling Elia that they needed a 3rd head of the dragon and we also knew that Elia was frail and probably couldn't survive another childbirth (from Selmy?) so I suspect she was aware of Rheagar's plans.

That's how it seems to me also - Elia knew and was on board. I guess its more simple for the show just to handle it as an annulment since they've spent almost zero time on Rheagar's background. The book sure makes it seem like Rhaegar has a decent amount of awareness of what's coming and what he needs to do (create Jon/Aegon) to deal with it - which is why he's depicted as being melancholy. I wonder if he had foresight into what was going to happen to Elia and her kids. That would be pretty awful.

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So Tormund and Dondarrion are going to have to walk all the way along the top of the wall from the ruins of Eastwatch to one of the other castles like Greenguard or something? I don't think there's any way down where they are anymore. What would logically happen first - freezing or starving?

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1 hour ago, Gr00vus said:

So Tormund and Dondarrion are going to have to walk all the way along the top of the wall from the ruins of Eastwatch to one of the other castles like Greenguard or something? I don't think there's any way down where they are anymore. What would logically happen first - freezing or starving?

We already know Tormund's preferred means of staying warm is on the table, so I'll go with starving.

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1 hour ago, Gr00vus said:

So Tormund and Dondarrion are going to have to walk all the way along the top of the wall from the ruins of Eastwatch to one of the other castles like Greenguard or something? I don't think there's any way down where they are anymore. What would logically happen first - freezing or starving?

Aren't there like 20 castles spaced out?  More believable to make it to the next one than many of this season's rescues

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On 8/28/2017 at 8:09 AM, CletiusMaximus said:

If Jon is Neds bastard, he's a Snow, same with other families/houses except the Targs. I looked it up some time ago. Its confusing, but the Targs don't really have a bastard name so use birthplace. (I think) 

I believe it'd be "Waters" if he was Rhaegar's bastard, as he's from the crownlands.

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It'd be rugged, even for this show, to have Dany play the Nissa Nissa role, particularly if she's pregnant. The show's never brought up the whole Nissa Nissa legend yet either, so maybe it's not really in play. Then again they have burned a girl at the stake and had a pregnant woman get stabbed to death, so maybe it does happen. I mean, looks like Jamie's heading north, Brienne will be up there, so they could reforge (hey Gendry!) Ice, and then do the sacrifice thing with it and you've got Ice & Fire/Lightbringer. Maybe it'll be Melissandre who plays the Nissa Nissa role.

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3 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

It'd be rugged, even for this show, to have Dany play the Nissa Nissa role, particularly if she's pregnant. The show's never brought up the whole Nissa Nissa legend yet either, so maybe it's not really in play. Then again they have burned a girl at the stake and had a pregnant woman get stabbed to death, so maybe it does happen. I mean, looks like Jamie's heading north, Brienne will be up there, so they could reforge (hey Gendry!) Ice, and then do the sacrifice thing with it and you've got Ice & Fire/Lightbringer. Maybe it'll be Melissandre who plays the Nissa Nissa role.

I thought of that as well, that Jon executes Melissandre, which ignites his sword.  But Jon having to choose to kill Dany to save the living would be the ultimate, "heart at conflict with itself"

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Just now, Spin said:

I thought of that as well, that Jon executes Melissandre, which ignites his sword.  But Jon having to choose to kill Dany to save the living would be the ultimate, "heart at conflict with itself"

For sure. It would be very Martin.

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5 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

It'd be rugged, even for this show, to have Dany play the Nissa Nissa role, particularly if she's pregnant. The show's never brought up the whole Nissa Nissa legend yet either, so maybe it's not really in play. Then again they have burned a girl at the stake and had a pregnant woman get stabbed to death, so maybe it does happen. I mean, looks like Jamie's heading north, Brienne will be up there, so they could reforge (hey Gendry!) Ice, and then do the sacrifice thing with it and you've got Ice & Fire/Lightbringer. Maybe it'll be Melissandre who plays the Nissa Nissa role.

Oh, and I'd imagine we'd get to see the original Nissa Nissa / sword the heart via a Bran flashback, if that's the route they're going.  Early on in the season, have Bran and Samwell combining to research how to defeat the white walkers.  Bran goes back to see the creation of Lightbringer, and boom, it's now present.  A few episodes in, things look bleak, and Bran reveals the original creation of Lightbringer, and Jon realizes what he has to do.

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I believe one of them will have to be sacrificed in some manner, but I don't think it's in a literal replay of the original.  Nissa Nissa died to create Lightbringer after AA spent months laboring on it.  Jon's not going to create his own sword, and it doesn't make much sense to have to plunge an existing sword into her chest.  For what? 

Besides, I don't believe the prophesy about the Prince that was Promised makes any mention of Nissa.  It's simply that he's supposed to be the reincarnation/second coming of AA iirc.

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1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said:

I believe one of them will have to be sacrificed in some manner, but I don't think it's in a literal replay of the original.  Nissa Nissa died to create Lightbringer after AA spent months laboring on it.  Jon's not going to create his own sword, and it doesn't make much sense to have to plunge an existing sword into her chest.  For what? 

Besides, I don't believe the prophesy about the Prince that was Promised makes any mention of Nissa.  It's simply that he's supposed to be the reincarnation/second coming of AA iirc.

Yeah, they haven't laid any track for this need to forge a new sword. Can't see them going this way on the show. 

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To me, one of the awesome things about the books is how you see the same major events through everyone's eyes. Each character has their own take and their own motivations. No one is a perfect narrator. No one knows everything. (Waiting on Bran to wreck this...) Does Robert know it was mutual? I think when he calls Rhaeger a rapist, he means it. He really thinks that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. He doesn't know that it was a mutual thing. Robert and Ned are acting with the knowledge that they have at the time they have it.

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16 minutes ago, Buckychudd said:

Umm the Mad King killed Brandon and Rickard and demanded Jon Arryn turn over Rob and Ned, presumably in order to kill them....Jon's refusal is what started the rebellion.

Rickard and Brandon were killed because they had the gall to confront the Mad King about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. 

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1 hour ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

SO what was the point of robert's rebellion if Rhagar and Lyanna was a voluntary thing?

The real question is, why didn't Rhaegar go public with the annulment and courtship of/marriage to Lyanna? He's the crown prince, who's going to say no if he's doing things out in the open on the up and up? The Baratheons and Martells? The Baratheons would have no legitimate complaint. By keeping it secret he set off the whole chain of events. I'm concerned that we're going to get some exposition of Rhaegar hearing "voices" telling him that he had to do it exactly the way he did, some sort of self fulfilling prophecy deal.

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31 minutes ago, IrishTwinkie said:

To me, one of the awesome things about the books is how you see the same major events through everyone's eyes. Each character has their own take and their own motivations. No one is a perfect narrator. No one knows everything. (Waiting on Bran to wreck this...) Does Robert know it was mutual? I think when he calls Rhaeger a rapist, he means it. He really thinks that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. He doesn't know that it was a mutual thing. Robert and Ned are acting with the knowledge that they have at the time they have it.

I am just starting up my re-read of the series, but could it have been both too?  An abduction that turned into a mutual thing?

Also, just like you said - an awesome thing about the books is getting in these people's heads.  It is interesting reading through and realizing how some of their actions can be taken from the other side - ie, how Ned's actions and decisions look to the outside world and just thinking to yourself - "WTF are you thinking, Ned?"

 

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1 minute ago, Gr00vus said:

The real question is, why didn't Rhaegar go public with the annulment and courtship of/marriage to Lyanna? He's the crown prince, who's going to say no if he's doing things out in the open on the up and up? The Baratheons and Martells? The Baratheons would have no legitimate complaint. By keeping it secret he set off the whole chain of events. I'm concerned that we're going to get some exposition of Rhaegar hearing "voices" telling him that he had to do it exactly the way he did, some sort of self fulfilling prophecy deal.

If it turns out to be Bran, I might punch somebody. 

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It better NOT be Bran. I'll be annoyed. I suppose it could have been both. I don't think so tho. We don't know alot about  Lyanna except that she and Arya are a lot a like. I could see Arya acting against the arranged marriage and following her whims. Lyanna was wooed. Don't know if hugging was involved or not, but certainly, Rhaegar named Lyanna the queen of love and beauty with the whole blue rose thing. I'd guess a blue rose is better than a hug. I think you put Arya in a similar circumstance that she'd be all noble about it, I could see her acting rashly. And from Selmy we know Rhaegar is a bit of a romantic. I don't think he is the abducting type.

 

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19 minutes ago, Gr00vus said:

The real question is, why didn't Rhaegar go public with the annulment and courtship of/marriage to Lyanna? He's the crown prince, who's going to say no if he's doing things out in the open on the up and up? The Baratheons and Martells? The Baratheons would have no legitimate complaint. By keeping it secret he set off the whole chain of events. I'm concerned that we're going to get some exposition of Rhaegar hearing "voices" telling him that he had to do it exactly the way he did, some sort of self fulfilling prophecy deal.

Probably driven by Lyanna.  She knew her family wouldn't be pleased.  Her father pledged her to Robert, and we know what a Stark man's word means to them.

It's also possible she never considered things would go as far as fast as they did.  She ran off with Rhaegar.  Brandon learned of it on his way to wed Catelyn iirc.  He and some friends (younger sons of Stark bannermen, I believe) rode south to King's Landing and screamed for Rhaegar's head.  Aerys had them arrested for plotting against the Prince.  He summoned their fathers to answer for their crimes, and Ned's old man demanded a trial by combat.  Aerys granted it.

I would think Rhaegar and Lyanna never knew any of it happened.  They were probably off honeymooning, completely unaware of what was going down.

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1 hour ago, thecatch said:

Rickard and Brandon were killed because they had the gall to confront the Mad King about Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna. 

Pretty much...or at least that was why Brandon was killed, I think Rickard was just there trying to defend his son.

Of course then the Mad King wanted to kill anyone who was even tangentially involved.  Ned, Rob, probably Jon, whomever else he could get his hands on.

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1 hour ago, Gr00vus said:

The real question is, why didn't Rhaegar go public with the annulment and courtship of/marriage to Lyanna? He's the crown prince, who's going to say no if he's doing things out in the open on the up and up? The Baratheons and Martells? The Baratheons would have no legitimate complaint. By keeping it secret he set off the whole chain of events. I'm concerned that we're going to get some exposition of Rhaegar hearing "voices" telling him that he had to do it exactly the way he did, some sort of self fulfilling prophecy deal.

Do we think Jon's real name will be Aegon in the books?  Maybe that is the name Rhaegar knew to be the prince that was promised so was naming any and all sons of his that?

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8 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

The real question is, why didn't Rhaegar go public with the annulment and courtship of/marriage to Lyanna? He's the crown prince, who's going to say no if he's doing things out in the open on the up and up? The Baratheons and Martells? The Baratheons would have no legitimate complaint. By keeping it secret he set off the whole chain of events. I'm concerned that we're going to get some exposition of Rhaegar hearing "voices" telling him that he had to do it exactly the way he did, some sort of self fulfilling prophecy deal.

I think part of it had to do with the idea the Robert(Ned) wouldn't neccessarily just stop if he came out with it.  Also, IIRC....The Mad King actually was thinking that Rheagar was going to betray him and overthrow him....so he might not have had his fathers support if he came out and said he was married to a member of a family who just saw two members murdered by the Mad King.

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On 8/28/2017 at 4:02 PM, Gr00vus said:

Nice get. I need to read these books again.

Still a problem. How do you have a compelling story when there's a character in it who knows everything?

Because he doesn't really know everything. He merely has the CAPACITY to learn almost anything. The problem is, he still has to know when and where to look, and he still has to look. As strong as this power is, you're greatly exaggerating it.

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On 8/28/2017 at 9:19 PM, Slapdash said:

Aren't there like 20 castles spaced out?  More believable to make it to the next one than many of this season's rescues

yep, but most aren't manned. Would think there would be waystations on top of the wall as well too, and likely rope in some of them. They shouldn't have to go more then a couple days

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8 hours ago, renesauz said:

Because he doesn't really know everything. He merely has the CAPACITY to learn almost anything. The problem is, he still has to know when and where to look, and he still has to look. As strong as this power is, you're greatly exaggerating it.

I can't see how I can exaggerate it - it's ill conceived and undefined. Until Martin or whoever puts some kind of bound on "I know everything" I'm taking it as given. You have no idea of whether your "problem" actually exists - nothing in the story thus far indicates it. And even if your problem exists, it still doesn't place much of a limit on what the guy can do. He knows, or can easily obtain, the time and location of the events he'll likely need to understand (somewhat thanks to Sam and all his books).

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4 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

I can't see how I can exaggerate it - it's ill conceived and undefined. Until Martin or whoever puts some kind of bound on "I know everything" I'm taking it as given. You have no idea of whether your "problem" actually exists - nothing in the story thus far indicates it. And even if your problem exists, it still doesn't place much of a limit on what the guy can do. He knows, or can easily obtain, the time and location of the events he'll likely need to understand (somewhat thanks to Sam and all his books).

Except it does exist and it was just shown this past episode. Bran did NOT know about Rhaegar's wedding to Lyanna. He only found out when Sam told him and he went back. And it seems like Bran experiences time just like he does when he isn't warging, its not some Matrix-like data upload where someone slides in a tape, eyes flicker back and forth a lot and boom he can fly a helicopter like a pro! Does Bran have the capacity to be the perfect all knowing narrator? Yup. Can it ruin the story if over used. Yup. Have they shown signs of ruining the story with it? Not in my opinion. Some of these Bran = NK theories push it over the edge I think I, but so far they've used Bran just about right. ( I would be ok with Bran = Bran the Builder tho)

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