Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
WILL THERE BE ANYTHING ELSE?
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☞ Official SOPRANOS Thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I will go one further and say that Scatino's reaction told me that he knew Artie was lying and just didn't want to loan him the money.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
All he had to say was that Charmaine handles the finances, which she probably did.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And the irony is that Tony was shot at the beginning of Season 6 and then Sil did get to see what it was like to be number one. And the stress put him in the hospital.WILL THERE BE ANYTHING ELSE?
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
"Can't breathe... can't breathe."And the irony is that Tony was shot at the beginning of Season 6 and then Sil did get to see what it was like to be number one. And the stress put him in the hospital.WILL THERE BE ANYTHING ELSE?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
RBM
Footballguy
Crew of misfits, just look Philly said. Patsy, Paulie, Benny and Walden would have been a little crew that worked for Butchie and NY.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Let's not forget that, while not nearly as big as the NY crews, Tony's crew did have a lot of people that we never saw. Kind of like how we never saw Carlo and then all of a sudden he appeared at the beginning of Season 4 as one of Tony's capos. So there likely would have been a capo we never saw ready to take over when Tony was killed or went to prison.
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Do you think NY takes out any of those guys after Tony? Do they want a puppet in charge? Keep multiple "capos" essentially to maintain continutiy of leadership for the soldiers? Or take out all the leaders and put in their own guys (but risk mutiny, although leaderless and those soldier types likely only care about money and moving up in the new NY family)
RBM
Footballguy
No titles for those guys. I would think Butchie would send one of his capos out there to meet with them and lay down the new business plans. They are allowed to keep operating but instead of kicking up to Tony, they are kicking up to the NY guys. I bet they would all go along with it.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Larry Barese would probably become the Acting Boss with Albert Barese helping him. Larry's the only one left from the first season; although he is in jail. Either that or we'd actually see Ercole Dimeo (whose family it actually is) appoint someone as a successor; assuming he isn't dead (which I don't thin they ever said he wasn't).'Leeroy Jenkins said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Well, you know Albert would be good at repeating Larry Boy's orders.
Nipsey
Footballguy
It's an interesting question. If the next episode started the second Tony is shot, Meadow has just entered the diner with AJ and Carmela having a front row seat across from Tony. Meadow screams, AJ cries, Carmela goes catatonic, faints. Pandemonium in the diner. A shot of a shocked Melfi learning of Tony's death on TV. Next, the funeral. You'd have a nice scene with Paulie, Patsy Parisi, Benny and others deciding what to do next. Hesh probably wades in. Artie tells everyone he's in for whatever, they tell him to settle down and make some meatballs. Little Carmine shows up and attempts to say something poignant. Agent Harris shows up to pay his respects. Beansie rolls in. Maybe a nice scene at the funeral after-gathering with Janice calling for vengeance. She tells Carmela she knows how she feels because she recently lost her husband, Carmela goes ballistic. AJ has a meltdown. Father Phil eats in the background. Paulie visits Silvio in the hospital for a one-way conversation about the old times and seeking advice about the present. Paulie keeps seeing cats everywhere. You begin to see the inner-workings of the power struggle to come. In New York you have Butch and Albie plotting what to do next. Who else is left in NY that we know about? Does Little Carmine get back into the swing of things? I don't believe the jersey guys simply evaporate into the New York family. I see a full out war with guys struggling for power all over the place. Paulie had that dream scene with Big ##### asking him when it's his turn will he stand up (something like that). We last see Paulie sunbathing under the watchful eye of a cat, inevitable doom to come. Maybe he takes a stab at power and fails. Does AJ eventually attempt to get into dad's business? Seems like he'd have a huge chip on his shoulder among other psychological reasons. How does Carmela adjust? She becomes ruthless in tracking down finances she believes she's entitled to while endlessly playing the world's biggest victim. Roe: "I lost both my men, i know how you feel." Carmella: "You do? I watched my husbands head get blown off right in front of my face!!"I thought the choice of the Journey song was open to so many interpretations but the line "it goes on and on and on and on" was a thinly veiled reference to the mafia. People come and go but like the song says the movie never ends. Even after Tony's death the show could have gone on with the right mix of new blood.'Leeroy Jenkins said:
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
0% he needed the roof.'Raider Nation said:
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Re-watching the entire series on HBO, and I am enjoying the last two mini-seasons much more this time around.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I wonder if the Russian is still driving Paulie's Caddy and washing his balls with ice water.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
They grow on you, but 6a and 6b just don't have the consistency of Seasons 1, 2, 3 and 5, and have way too many blah storylines and average episodes. But I get that the show was getting darker and bleaker as the ending neared, so it went with the territory.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
One thing that really stood out to me this time around is how cruel Tony is to the people he claims he loves. The scene where Janice tries to stab Tony with a fork because he's taunting her about her son and the scene where Tony ridicules Carmella for her spec house particularly.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
He was mean to Janice there cause he knows that deep down she is an angry, vindictive person, just like he is, and he couldn't stand seeing her try to be someone she isn't. Plus, the idea of her actually improving herself, while he stays mired in his misery, was just too much to bear.
in the case of Carmela, he hated the idea of her having her own career, but he gave in twice, the first time because it was part of her condition in them getting back together, and the second time because she was getting too curious about Ade's disappearance, so he had to distract her and getting things going good with her spec house did the trick. Deep down, he thinks his wife should stay home like all mafia wives, though.
in the case of Carmela, he hated the idea of her having her own career, but he gave in twice, the first time because it was part of her condition in them getting back together, and the second time because she was getting too curious about Ade's disappearance, so he had to distract her and getting things going good with her spec house did the trick. Deep down, he thinks his wife should stay home like all mafia wives, though.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It can be a bit jolting at first, but if you go back and watch the series, Tony was always kind of a cruel guy. He just got worse over time as he got more cynical, depressed and less trusting of those around him.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
werdnoynek
Footballguy
agreed. one of the most interesting, and undoubtedly important, aspects of the show would be his sessions with Dr MILFi (Melfi)... you really start to see this gradually coming out throughout the series.
without the psychological aspect of the show and the in depth look at tony's psyche it would have been a completely different show and probably quite empty. it definitely made the show complete in my eyes and is why it's one of my all time favorites!
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I was walking my Golden Retriever (70lbs) last week and as we rounded a corner, we were greeted by a little dog (<20 lbs). The dog was unleashed, snapping barking just going crazy. My pup walked up and circled him a few times and the dog kind of slow down. Then my dog tried to sit on him. I started laughing as the owner came out of the house to get her little Cosette. I just kept thinking of Pauly "Was he barking?" Chuckled all through the weekend thinking of the intervention.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
When I came to open up one morning, there you were with your head half in the toilet; your hair was in the toilet water. Disgusting.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Made In America was on tonight. The whole ending is just really ####### with us. They clearly build up tension in the restaurant and are following the members only guy who certainly looks over his shoulder towards tony a few times. However, there is no reason for tony to die at this point. It seems that weeks, if not over a month have passed since sitting down with carmine and butchie. There was plenty of time and opportunity to wack tony before the onion rings. Tony is alive.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Who and why at that point though? It's pretty clear to me that a decent amount of time has passed since the truce and Phil being killed. Butchie is in charge now. Who is motivatied to kill him? Or are we to assume that the plan was set in motion already and this guy didn't get the word? But still, Phil was not in charge of the killings. Butchie was. So Phil getting killed would not have prevented the dogs being called off. And again, Tony was vulnerable plenty of other times since the truce and had his guard down. Why wait? I'm back to it just being the end of the show, not the end of his life.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
You are assuming that mob guys are smart and sophisticated enough to plan out the perfect murder, at just the right time; they aren't. Besides, Butchie never liked Tony, and with him and Phil out of the way, his earnings would go waaaaay up AND he would have control. It was win-win for him.
Besides, there are like 1,744 clues given in the final season, many in the last scene, that indicate that Tony dying is what the ending meant. It is more than obvious once you consider everything and look at the big picture of what Chase was going for with the ending.
Besides, there are like 1,744 clues given in the final season, many in the last scene, that indicate that Tony dying is what the ending meant. It is more than obvious once you consider everything and look at the big picture of what Chase was going for with the ending.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I just rewatched the whole season. Butchie and co. were already at the sit down. Tony and Paulie were unarmed. Why not wack them right there?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Because EVERYONE was patted down and unarmed, since little Carmine and the others wouldn't have been in on the hit. You aren't gonna whack someone in front of "friends" who were good enough to arrange a meeting to discuss a truce. Just about every whacking on the show was done in an unexpected "out of nowhere" manner.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
i'm in the tony is dead group here.
when you look at the cinematography of the final scene, there is ton of tony POV (point of view) shots in the restaurant - when he walks in, looking around at the customers, etc. every time the bell rings when the door opens, we see tony's face, then the POV shot of him looking at who comes in. so when the bell rings the final time then the screen goes black it's to show that tony is shot, dead, by the unknown members only guy... when it shows tony look up, then nothing but blackness it's showing the POV of tony being nothingness, death, blackness.
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when you look at the cinematography of the final scene, there is ton of tony POV (point of view) shots in the restaurant - when he walks in, looking around at the customers, etc. every time the bell rings when the door opens, we see tony's face, then the POV shot of him looking at who comes in. so when the bell rings the final time then the screen goes black it's to show that tony is shot, dead, by the unknown members only guy... when it shows tony look up, then nothing but blackness it's showing the POV of tony being nothingness, death, blackness.
*edited for clairty
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
My real point is that Tony was right back into his normal routine. There was ample opportunity for them to wack Tony when they knew exactly where he was going to be and with who. All these guys get wacked at places that are in their routines: collections, hangouts, places that they frequent. Had he been wacked at Artie's place, then I buy it. That restaurant wasn't part of that routine. It also was random that they went there that night. They were supposed to stay home for dinner. Then Carmella says "I thought we'd go to Holston's" and she tells Tony that it's the consensus to go there. Tony goes to see Uncle Junior beforehand. Again, randomly. He's never been there to see him. Carmella didn't make a reservation. People just walk into the place. So how did anybody even know Tony was going to be there that night?
William Munny
Footballguy
If they wanted to stick to reality, there is zero chance they are blowing his brains all over his wife and two kids. Big mob no-no.Ghost Rider said:Leeroy Jenkins said:He's dead.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Unless you think Patsy Parisi was behind it. Maybe Meadow told her man that she was meeting her family for dinner there and then he told his father. That seems unlikely though.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
It is possible that Tony was being followed, and with his guard down a tad thanks to the alleged truce, he might not have been as diligent when watching for anyone following him, which is likely when you consider how at ease he looked in the scenes prior to the last one. Or maybe Tony's driver was on the take from NY and tipped them off as to where he was going.
Phil was whacked in front of his wife and two grandchildren. It's normally not protocol, but when they want someone dead, they will take their shot whenever they can.If they wanted to stick to reality, there is zero chance they are blowing his brains all over his wife and two kids. Big mob no-no.Ghost Rider said:Leeroy Jenkins said:
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Ray Karpis
Footballguy
I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
I've read all of those things as well and the intended length of the black screen may be telling. However, it makes no sense really. Who did it and how? Somebody followed Tony all day from his house to the psych ward to the restaurant? Not buying that. How did they know where he was? I don't care about the imagery etc. If he is dead, explain how it went down, who ordered it, and why.I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
the imagery tells the story though!!!I've read all of those things as well and the intended length of the black screen may be telling. However, it makes no sense really. Who did it and how? Somebody followed Tony all day from his house to the psych ward to the restaurant? Not buying that. How did they know where he was? I don't care about the imagery etc. If he is dead, explain how it went down, who ordered it, and why.I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.
ETA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnT7nYbCSvM
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
That's BS. The characters are the story: their motivations and actions are what drive everything. Eating onion rings like communion or editing techniques are not the story. Chase may very well have intended Tony to die and he wanted to be all artsy about it. Fine, that's his right. I'm saying that if that is true, that Tony is dead, explain to me who, what, when, where, why, and how it was done within the story and knowing what I laid out above about timing, routines, and dinner that night being random, without relying on imagery hinting at the end. Then tell me if it makes sense for Tony to be murdered in a public place seated with his family at that restaurant a month after a war ended and the antagonist killed.the imagery tells the story though!!!I've read all of those things as well and the intended length of the black screen may be telling. However, it makes no sense really. Who did it and how? Somebody followed Tony all day from his house to the psych ward to the restaurant? Not buying that. How did they know where he was? I don't care about the imagery etc. If he is dead, explain how it went down, who ordered it, and why.I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
There was an interview with Chase where he all but states flat out that Tony dies. I'll try to find the URL when I get home.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
unfortunately, there's no way to, definitively, give you the answers to your questions...That's BS. The characters are the story: their motivations and actions are what drive everything. Eating onion rings like communion or editing techniques are not the story. Chase may very well have intended Tony to die and he wanted to be all artsy about it. Fine, that's his right. I'm saying that if that is true, that Tony is dead, explain to me who, what, when, where, why, and how it was done within the story and knowing what I laid out above about timing, routines, and dinner that night being random, without relying on imagery hinting at the end. Then tell me if it makes sense for Tony to be murdered in a public place seated with his family at that restaurant a month after a war ended and the antagonist killed.the imagery tells the story though!!!I've read all of those things as well and the intended length of the black screen may be telling. However, it makes no sense really. Who did it and how? Somebody followed Tony all day from his house to the psych ward to the restaurant? Not buying that. How did they know where he was? I don't care about the imagery etc. If he is dead, explain how it went down, who ordered it, and why.I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.That's BS. The characters are the story: their motivations and actions are what drive everything. Eating onion rings like communion or editing techniques are not the story. Chase may very well have intended Tony to die and he wanted to be all artsy about it. Fine, that's his right. I'm saying that if that is true, that Tony is dead, explain to me who, what, when, where, why, and how it was done within the story and knowing what I laid out above about timing, routines, and dinner that night being random, without relying on imagery hinting at the end. Then tell me if it makes sense for Tony to be murdered in a public place seated with his family at that restaurant a month after a war ended and the antagonist killed.>>
the imagery tells the story though!!!I've read all of those things as well and the intended length of the black screen may be telling. However, it makes no sense really. Who did it and how? Somebody followed Tony all day from his house to the psych ward to the restaurant? Not buying that. How did they know where he was? I don't care about the imagery etc. If he is dead, explain how it went down, who ordered it, and why.I've read this theory on the innerwebs before.
Tony is dead. The nail in the coffin for me was learning that Chase originally wanted the initial cut to black to be nothing but a silent, black screen for a full minute. I'm sure most have seen the analysis of the last scene switching from Tony's POV to a wider shot of Tony, and that last cut to black would have been Tony's POV....meaning he is seeing nothing...silence.
He's dead, and he ain't comin' back.
all we're saying is chase gave us a pretty good idea as to what happened in the final scene though with the "artsy" stuff, as you put it.
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Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Don't misunderstand me; I like foreshadowing, imagery, etc. It just needs to make sense in the story. After rewatching the series, i just do not think it does. Bosses rarely get wacked. It's almost always in a war or a power play. So I'm just asking who, why, and how for it to make sense.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Leeroy, I think the point is that he was dead, and the who, why and how was not explicitly told to leave a little bit up to the imagination, so you can almost conjure up different ways the plot to kill him went down. In other words, there is no one who, one why and one how as to how he died. The point is that he died. You are asking for specific answers to questions that could have many answers.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Here's David Chases rundown in a semi recent interview - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/sopranos-david-chase_n_2317801.html
werdnoynek
Footballguy
so basically chase is telling you not to ask those questions... 
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
If there had been some loose ends, then I'd agree that there could be many answers. But there weren't. I'm not looking for a definitive answer though. I'm waiting for a reasonable argument on who, why, and how tony died. An answer about the coldness of the universe is made up crap after the fact.
