Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Because he doesn't have an answer that fits the story (as opposed to the theme or message).so basically chase is telling you not to ask those questions...
Because he doesn't have an answer that fits the story (as opposed to the theme or message).so basically chase is telling you not to ask those questions...
Does that say who had tony killed, why, and how they knew where he was possibly? Or just why people think based on quotes, symbolism, direction, editing, themes etc that Tony died?
You could always read it.Does that say who had tony killed, why, and how they knew where he was possibly? Or just why people think based on quotes, symbolism, direction, editing, themes etc that Tony died?
1) New York, already had in its head the idea that the profits of the Lupartazzi Family would go up exponentially without the a redundant leadership situation in New Jersey. Get rid of the leadership of the "glorified crew" and do business with what's left. That may originally be Phil's sentiment....but it's one the Butchie and Co. initially saw the benefit in. It's not a stretch to think that this sentiment, although put on the back burner to take care of the Phil Situation....is a continually prevalent thought in New York.If there had been some loose ends, then I'd agree that there could be many answers. But there weren't. I'm not looking for a definitive answer though. I'm waiting for a reasonable argument on who, why, and how tony died. An answer about the coldness of the universe is made up crap after the fact.Leeroy, I think the point is that he was dead, and the who, why and how was not explicitly told to leave a little bit up to the imagination, so you can almost conjure up different ways the plot to kill him went down. In other words, there is no one who, one why and one how as to how he died. The point is that he died. You are asking for specific answers to questions that could have many answers.
no, because there isn't an answer!!! he left it up to the viewer to draw their own conclusions... the who/why/how shouldn't matter. you're clearly hung up on it and i don't think you're going to find any closure to those questions. you've drawn your own conclusion but to ignore what chase is telling us with the camera just because it isn't laid out in the story with characters or dialog is kind of short sighted and missing the point imo.Because he doesn't have an answer that fits the story (as opposed to the theme or message).so basically chase is telling you not to ask those questions...
I'm not sure that's what he was shooting for, Billy.Chase got exactly what he wanted. We're still discussing it years later.
Only because I just rewatched it and I found it to be dumber than initially if tony is supposed to be dead.Chase got exactly what he wanted. We're still discussing it years later.
Exactly. And I get the impression that Leeroy won't accept any answer we'd give, anyway. I could say who did it...he would argue otherwise. I could say why they did it...he would argue otherwise. I could how they did it...he would argue otherwise.no, because there isn't an answer!!! he left it up to the viewer to draw their own conclusions... the who/why/how shouldn't matter. you're clearly hung up on it and i don't think you're going to find any closure to those questions. you've drawn your own conclusion but to ignore what chase is telling us with the camera just because it isn't laid out in the story with characters or dialog is kind of short sighted and missing the point imo.Because he doesn't have an answer that fits the story (as opposed to the theme or message).so basically chase is telling you not to ask those questions...
well said.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
I assume no one posted this again because every one has read it before, but in case you missed it and if you are looking for an extremely detailed analysis of why Tony is dead, this is the best sourceI think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
I've read that before and it as posted again yesterday.I assume no one posted this again because every one has read it before, but in case you missed it and if you are looking for an extremely detailed analysis of why Tony is dead, this is the best sourceI think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/
Then it goes into what we kind of talked about. As in depth as the whole article goes about everything else, this portion is pretty weak. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, but it seems like it's grasping at straws that aren't really there. Patsy is pretty incompetant. I felt he and his wife were nervous and envious at the engagement dinner, but for reasons of insecurity rather than anything to do with their other son.Ultimately, Chase left substantial evidence that Tony was killed but failed to offer anything concrete as to who was behind it. Therefore I do not believe the issue is that important to him and should not be to us.
If it's poorly done, what you you have done?I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
The overall story of Tony ultimately losing to his own insecurities is a good one. In the end, his mob family was decimated, often by his actions, inactions, and selfish and misguided reasoning. He should have met his demise for the story. The execution (pun sort of intended) was just poorly done IMO and doesn't make much sense based on where things stood.
Had him get wacked at Melphi's office after chit chatting with a new patient on the couch outside (I wouldn't have had her totally give up on him so he was there for a regular appointment). Then he gets by this person killed in front of Melphi and her failure is complete. The killer leaves and gets in a car w Patsi, butchie, hesh, both, or somebody else. No blank screen crap. Maybe had him get wacked at Artie's like he'd been trying to avoid in season 1.If it's poorly done, what you you have done?I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason. The overall story of Tony ultimately losing to his own insecurities is a good one. In the end, his mob family was decimated, often by his actions, inactions, and selfish and misguided reasoning. He should have met his demise for the story. The execution (pun sort of intended) was just poorly done IMO and doesn't make much sense based on where things stood.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
One of the stars of Leeroy's story. I think it's Tony's nutritionist.Who is Melphi?
One of the stars of Leeroy's story. I think it's Tony's nutritionist.Who is Melphi?
In other words, it would have been better if Chase had wrapped it all up in a bow. I think it's more interesting as-is.Had him get wacked at Melphi's office after chit chatting with a new patient on the couch outside (I wouldn't have had her totally give up on him so he was there for a regular appointment). Then he gets by this person killed in front of Melphi and her failure is complete. The killer leaves and gets in a car w Patsi, butchie, hesh, both, or somebody else. No blank screen crap.Maybe had him get wacked at Artie's like he'd been trying to avoid in season 1.If it's poorly done, what you you have done?I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason. The overall story of Tony ultimately losing to his own insecurities is a good one. In the end, his mob family was decimated, often by his actions, inactions, and selfish and misguided reasoning. He should have met his demise for the story. The execution (pun sort of intended) was just poorly done IMO and doesn't make much sense based on where things stood.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
I don't think it's more interesting for the over analyzed symbolism to point to him being killed and the circumstances and story pointing to him being alive. My original interpretation in 2007 was more like we get a glimpse of Tony's constant tension, and we were a part if his life and now its over. If you're going to kill him, then kill him. Death leaves no room for interpretation.In other words, it would have been better if Chase had wrapped it all up in a bow. I think it's more interesting as-is.Had him get wacked at Melphi's office after chit chatting with a new patient on the couch outside (I wouldn't have had her totally give up on him so he was there for a regular appointment). Then he gets by this person killed in front of Melphi and her failure is complete. The killer leaves and gets in a car w Patsi, butchie, hesh, both, or somebody else. No blank screen crap.Maybe had him get wacked at Artie's like he'd been trying to avoid in season 1.If it's poorly done, what you you have done?I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason. The overall story of Tony ultimately losing to his own insecurities is a good one. In the end, his mob family was decimated, often by his actions, inactions, and selfish and misguided reasoning. He should have met his demise for the story. The execution (pun sort of intended) was just poorly done IMO and doesn't make much sense based on where things stood.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
That we don't know what happens to Tony is far more intriguing to me, and it will be for decades to come.I don't think it's more interesting for the over analyzed symbolism to point to him being killed and the circumstances and story pointing to him being alive. My original interpretation in 2007 was more like we get a glimpse of Tony's constant tension, and we were a part if his life and now its over. If you're going to kill him, then kill him. Death leaves no room for interpretation.In other words, it would have been better if Chase had wrapped it all up in a bow. I think it's more interesting as-is.Had him get wacked at Melphi's office after chit chatting with a new patient on the couch outside (I wouldn't have had her totally give up on him so he was there for a regular appointment). Then he gets by this person killed in front of Melphi and her failure is complete. The killer leaves and gets in a car w Patsi, butchie, hesh, both, or somebody else. No blank screen crap.Maybe had him get wacked at Artie's like he'd been trying to avoid in season 1.If it's poorly done, what you you have done?I think people are misunderstanding me. I'm not really looking for closure. I'm looking for the people who have interpretted everything to mean that Tony is dead, to backup the theory within the story and Soprano universe. I think that you are right that Chase doesn't "know" per se, but he certainly was going for people to debate whether Tony died. He used many techniques to lead people into that conclusion. It seems he didn't really have it all planned out though, and based on the story and the circumstances of that night, the ending was lazy IMO. Sure, we had a lot of imagery, foreshadowing, and the like in a lot of ways throughout the series. They all were tips, but still the results stood on their own within the story. The dreams were insights into Tony's thinking, worries, intentions, etc. They weren't just there for no reason. The overall story of Tony ultimately losing to his own insecurities is a good one. In the end, his mob family was decimated, often by his actions, inactions, and selfish and misguided reasoning. He should have met his demise for the story. The execution (pun sort of intended) was just poorly done IMO and doesn't make much sense based on where things stood.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
From the masters of sopranos link. That whole thing is a really good read. "Furthermore, from a storytelling standpoint, it does not make much sense that Chase, who planned the ending years in advance, would use the final scene to simply make the statement that “this is how Tony will have to live the rest of his life.” The viewers already know Tony will always have to look over his shoulder. The viewers have known this since the beginning (Tony is mafia boss!). Chase could have created a Tony POV sequence to convey this message in any of the other 86 episodes. It makes much more sense that the Tony POV sequence was created to put the viewer in Tony’s eyes at the exact moment of his death. Remember, Tony Soprano is the main character the viewer has followed all of these years. We have been inside his head in multiple dream sequences and have intimate knowledge of his personality and fears through his visits to Dr. Melfi. It makes sense to put the viewer in Tony’s POV at the time of his death. Once Tony is dead, there is no show. If Tony was to die it had to be the last moment of the series. The show ends where Tony’s consciousness ends."My take after not seeing an episode since the finale aired: That last scene is the biggest glimpse into Tony's life as all the episodes combines. Even with his family, in public, everyone thinks he is going to get whacked. Welcome to inner tension and panic attacks.
JAMES! said:From the masters of sopranos link. That whole thing is a really good read. "Furthermore, from a storytelling standpoint, it does not make much sense that Chase, who planned the ending years in advance, would use the final scene to simply make the statement that “this is how Tony will have to live the rest of his life.” The viewers already know Tony will always have to look over his shoulder. The viewers have known this since the beginning (Tony is mafia boss!). Chase could have created a Tony POV sequence to convey this message in any of the other 86 episodes. It makes much more sense that the Tony POV sequence was created to put the viewer in Tony’s eyes at the exact moment of his death. Remember, Tony Soprano is the main character the viewer has followed all of these years. We have been inside his head in multiple dream sequences and have intimate knowledge of his personality and fears through his visits to Dr. Melfi. It makes sense to put the viewer in Tony’s POV at the time of his death. Once Tony is dead, there is no show. If Tony was to die it had to be the last moment of the series. The show ends where Tony’s consciousness ends."My take after not seeing an episode since the finale aired: That last scene is the biggest glimpse into Tony's life as all the episodes combines. Even with his family, in public, everyone thinks he is going to get whacked. Welcome to inner tension and panic attacks.
I agree. My post was more for the "there was nobody who would have done it" crowd.The point of who killed Tony is insignificant. Sure, it is fun to posit theories about the killer, but Chase didn't care. The point was that Tony had destroyed so many lives over the course of the series that it could have been anyone, connected or not.
I also completely agree with Chase's sentiment that to show Tony's death would completely belittle it. Other than the instant gratification of seeing his violent demise, it would not be a powerful ending. That final scene, in my opinion, with such incredible attention to detail, is a masterpiece.
In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
There are so many clues in that final scene/final season that he's killed i don't know how it could be thought Chase left it open to interpretation. What other interpretation could there be?In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It's a pretty tight shot and it stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
These things you call clues could just as well be red herrings.There are so many clues in that final scene/final season that he's killed i don't know how it could be thought Chase left it open to interpretation. What other interpretation could there be?In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It's a pretty tight shot and it stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
Good lord. I assume I'm being fished?These things you call clues could just as well be red herrings.There are so many clues in that final scene/final season that he's killed i don't know how it could be thought Chase left it open to interpretation. What other interpretation could there be?In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It's a pretty tight shot and it stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
I'm not trolling, fishing, inciting, or any other synonym for those things.Good lord. I assume I'm being fished?These things you call clues could just as well be red herrings.There are so many clues in that final scene/final season that he's killed i don't know how it could be thought Chase left it open to interpretation. What other interpretation could there be?In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It's a pretty tight shot and it stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
Yeah, all these explanations that "prove" Tony was killed sound a lot like the explanations that the briefcase in Pulp Fiction really contained Marcellus Wallace's soul. I don't find many of them convincing enough to become canon. I generally equate them to the fan theories that "James Bond" is an alias or Ferris Bueller is a figment of Cameron's imagination or Neville Longbottom is the true hero of the Harry Potter stories.I'm not trolling, fishing, inciting, or any other synonym for those things.Good lord. I assume I'm being fished?These things you call clues could just as well be red herrings.There are so many clues in that final scene/final season that he's killed i don't know how it could be thought Chase left it open to interpretation. What other interpretation could there be?In my opinion, the ending is intentionally left open to personal interpretation. It's literally written on the screen in the scene itself. When Tony is picking the song to play on the tabletop jukebox, there's a closeup of the selections... he picks Journey's "Don't Stop Believin'"... however, the other song paired on the jukebox card is Journey's "Any Way You Want It". It's a pretty tight shot and it stays on the screen for more than just a brief moment. That kind of thing is absolutely done on purpose.Somewhat forgotten is the fact the Chase may not even have an answer to the question, "Is Tony dead?" I understand the need for closure - that's expected. But Chase is smart enough to know that the answer to this question is just like the random nature of an aloof universe: unsure and ultimately lonely.
There are long, painstakingly-written explanations that "prove" Tony is dead. I'm supposed to take these theories as fact? This is like saying the earth is 6,000 years old because it's in the bible.
This.I agree that it's supposed to be open to interpretation, but not so that the viewer can make up their mind as to what happened. I think it goes the other way - there was great care taken to leave the viewer absolutely NOT sure of what happened. No matter how many articles appear and how much justification there is one way or the other, the viewer is not in a position to be sure. Ever. It actually makes the show's arc even better.