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98000 after 14 levels.  in the 

Made day 2.  Started with 10k. Ended with 29.5k.    373 left.  I'm 104th.  128 get paid.  Grinded like a mf with 4800 to 8 k chips levels 2 to 7.   

I don't have an AJ offsuit busted on the turning river lingo to share, but took the fam to Vegas for the first time this week (their first time, not mine).  Had a great time despite the 115 degree hea

Went out to Vegas last week. Flew in on Saturday, left on Thursday. Was a family/business trip. Wife had a conference on Tue/Wed/Thu. Took our 1.5 and 3.5 year old with us. In case anyone is thinking about going with little kids, thought I would share some advice.

First, I would totally recommend it as a family trip. Having the little kids obviously means curtailing the craziness, but there is enough to do in Vegas, and out in the nearby desert to make it totally worth a trip.

We got a suite at The Tropicana. Was by far the cheapest we could find. Probably close to 20% cheaper. It's at the south end of the strip, so it's a bit quieter. Had a nice room on the 16th floor. Corner suite that looked out to NY NY on one side, and MGM Grand on the other. Room was big and clean. Not high end or anything, but good enough for the grubby moops family. Tropicana is pretty lame though. Casino is probably the weakest of the ones I saw. Restaurant choices are slim, although the poolside one was decent. Pool is small, but not real crowded.

Anyway - just a quick run through of what we did.

Day 1 - arrived late, like 9 PM (which was 11 PM our time). Kids and wife crashed, I went downstairs and drank as many free drinks as I could while playing some slots and video poker. Lost 20 bucks.

Day 2 - Drove out to Red Rock Canyon in the morning. Hiked around with the kids. Ate a picnic lunch up on some boulders. Good stuff. Took a great nap, then woke up and watched some basketball games, went to Aria buffet for dinner. Played in a 45 dollar poker tourney at Luxor. Played terribly and finished in like 15/45. Played some blackjack for a coupe hours and didn't lose any money there. So only -65 dollars so far.

Day 3 - Drove out to Valley of Fire in the morning. Had another good little hike and lunch with the kids. Came back and played some blackjack while the kids napped and won 40 bucks (-25 for trip). Head out to Fremont St after that, and go to Container Park for dinner and drinks while the kids play on the playground and such. Put kids to bed and wife and I had some drinks and watched a movie.

Day 4 - Wife has conference at 800 AM. Take the kids out to Charlie Frias Park to play. Head back to Trop pool. Kids splash and play for a bit while I slug back some Pina Coladas. Wife comes back to meet us for lunch, eat poolside. Get some takeout pizza from NY NY place. I go play in another 45 tourney, this time at Excalibur. Come in 4th place, and get 105 bucks (now + 80 for trip). Stay out pretty late drinking beers at a few different places with some dude who I played poker with.

Day 5 - Wife has conference again. Head down to this park in the south of the city with the kids. Head back to strip and get lunch with them at some Wolfgang Puck place in MGM. Was a tasty meal with some nice brews. We go to Bellagio botanical garden at dinner time. Go over to get some food at Planet Hollywood. Mostly margaritas and some nachos and stuff at some Mexican joint. I go play some blackjack and lose 50 bucks (now + 30).

Day 6 - Wife has conference in morning, we leave at 3 PM. I pack #### up in the morning while the kids watch some shows. Go meet wife for lunch at Border Grill at Mandalay. Best meal of the trip there. Overlooks the pool, and was just all around really good. Head to airport and fly home. Exhausted.

But yea, good times. Her work paid for half the hotel and for about half our meals. And I won 30 bucks. #### yea.

Copying and pasting this into an e-mail to the wife now....

Question, when you were drinking/gambling, I assume someone else, wife or family, had the kids? That's the thing I struggle with. Going out to the desert and doing some interesting stuff sounds awesome. Hanging at the pool with them sounds awesome. But unless you get one of those resort babysitters -- and my wife and I never know how to trust those people, not sure we ever could -- how do you actually get to gamble??

I know some places have "kids clubs" or nonsense like that, but hard to leave really young ones there.

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I gambled while the wife and kids slept.

It was mostly dinner at 530 or 600. Wife and I would have a few drinks with dinner. We would head back to the hotel, get the kids down, make some sweet love, have another drink or two, she would hit the hay, and I would go out gambling on my own.

Worked out well for us.

No babysitters were used.

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I gambled while the wife and kids slept.

It was mostly dinner at 530 or 600. Wife and I would have a few drinks with dinner. We would head back to the hotel, get the kids down, make some sweet love, have another drink or two, she would hit the hay, and I would go out gambling on my own.

Worked out well for us.

No babysitters were used.

Interesting. I could see that working.

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Went out to Vegas last week. Flew in on Saturday, left on Thursday. Was a family/business trip. Wife had a conference on Tue/Wed/Thu. Took our 1.5 and 3.5 year old with us. In case anyone is thinking about going with little kids, thought I would share some advice.

First, I would totally recommend it as a family trip. Having the little kids obviously means curtailing the craziness, but there is enough to do in Vegas, and out in the nearby desert to make it totally worth a trip.

We got a suite at The Tropicana. Was by far the cheapest we could find. Probably close to 20% cheaper. It's at the south end of the strip, so it's a bit quieter. Had a nice room on the 16th floor. Corner suite that looked out to NY NY on one side, and MGM Grand on the other. Room was big and clean. Not high end or anything, but good enough for the grubby moops family. Tropicana is pretty lame though. Casino is probably the weakest of the ones I saw. Restaurant choices are slim, although the poolside one was decent. Pool is small, but not real crowded.

Anyway - just a quick run through of what we did.

Day 1 - arrived late, like 9 PM (which was 11 PM our time). Kids and wife crashed, I went downstairs and drank as many free drinks as I could while playing some slots and video poker. Lost 20 bucks.

Day 2 - Drove out to Red Rock Canyon in the morning. Hiked around with the kids. Ate a picnic lunch up on some boulders. Good stuff. Took a great nap, then woke up and watched some basketball games, went to Aria buffet for dinner. Played in a 45 dollar poker tourney at Luxor. Played terribly and finished in like 15/45. Played some blackjack for a coupe hours and didn't lose any money there. So only -65 dollars so far.

Day 3 - Drove out to Valley of Fire in the morning. Had another good little hike and lunch with the kids. Came back and played some blackjack while the kids napped and won 40 bucks (-25 for trip). Head out to Fremont St after that, and go to Container Park for dinner and drinks while the kids play on the playground and such. Put kids to bed and wife and I had some drinks and watched a movie.

Day 4 - Wife has conference at 800 AM. Take the kids out to Charlie Frias Park to play. Head back to Trop pool. Kids splash and play for a bit while I slug back some Pina Coladas. Wife comes back to meet us for lunch, eat poolside. Get some takeout pizza from NY NY place. I go play in another 45 tourney, this time at Excalibur. Come in 4th place, and get 105 bucks (now + 80 for trip). Stay out pretty late drinking beers at a few different places with some dude who I played poker with.

Day 5 - Wife has conference again. Head down to this park in the south of the city with the kids. Head back to strip and get lunch with them at some Wolfgang Puck place in MGM. Was a tasty meal with some nice brews. We go to Bellagio botanical garden at dinner time. Go over to get some food at Planet Hollywood. Mostly margaritas and some nachos and stuff at some Mexican joint. I go play some blackjack and lose 50 bucks (now + 30).

Day 6 - Wife has conference in morning, we leave at 3 PM. I pack #### up in the morning while the kids watch some shows. Go meet wife for lunch at Border Grill at Mandalay. Best meal of the trip there. Overlooks the pool, and was just all around really good. Head to airport and fly home. Exhausted.

But yea, good times. Her work paid for half the hotel and for about half our meals. And I won 30 bucks. #### yea.

Copying and pasting this into an e-mail to the wife now....

Question, when you were drinking/gambling, I assume someone else, wife or family, had the kids? That's the thing I struggle with. Going out to the desert and doing some interesting stuff sounds awesome. Hanging at the pool with them sounds awesome. But unless you get one of those resort babysitters -- and my wife and I never know how to trust those people, not sure we ever could -- how do you actually get to gamble??

I know some places have "kids clubs" or nonsense like that, but hard to leave really young ones there.

Surely a FBG of your (wallet) girth can bring the au pair? Or at least the ol' bring the babysitter/family friend and tell them they will have to watch the kids for x # of nights

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Flying in for a few quick days next week. Staying at Cosmopolitan, and seeing Hozier at the Chelsea and St. Vincent at the pool. I'm very interested to see how a concert works at the pool...I've never planned a trip around concerts before, so trying something new.

Saw a show at the Hard Rock pool. Was ####### awesome but I don't remember much after dark.

Saw The Go-Gos at Mandalay Bay pool one year. They setup the stage in the middle of the wave pool so you can get close to the stage by going in the water or just stand on the beach.

70/30 female to male ratio. was good

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I gambled while the wife and kids slept.

It was mostly dinner at 530 or 600. Wife and I would have a few drinks with dinner. We would head back to the hotel, get the kids down, make some sweet love, have another drink or two, she would hit the hay, and I would go out gambling on my own.

Worked out well for us.

No babysitters were used.

Interesting. I could see that working.

Yeah, that's why I said he did it right. Note it was a business trip for his wife though. So they had a compelling reason to be ther. That dynamic sort of forced the common sense on them too as she was occuppied by day. Most parents aren't this well behaved.

Anyway, take your wife and kids to Hawaii not Vegas. Better scenery, better pools, better daycares (awesome btw), way more romantic and your not exposing the little ones to so much secondary sin.

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

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Try to at least go check out the Venetian...

Sheldon Adelson owns Sands Inc (Venetian/Palazzo). #### that guy in the ###. He's the ####er that's working overtime to kill online poker. Seriously, he might be the only guy I've never met that I really want to punch in the face.
Well, it's a really nice hotel

You know who else had a nice hotel? Hitler!

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

Thanks!! I appreciate it.

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

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I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

$100 gets you 15 mins / 3 songs in back I believe (from what the bachelor said when we sent him back).

I believe $20 is a tame lap dance on the chair in the main room.

Here in memphis it's $40/song for bikini dances which is ridiculous... that was "fair" when it was full nude and wild as hell but the pricing hasn't caught up to the laws... hence the clubs going from legendary status here in Platinum Plus heyday, to crap.

There are usually mandatory drink purchases and such in the back as well... though I've never been in the back in Vegas.

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I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

$100 gets you 15 mins / 3 songs in back I believe (from what the bachelor said when we sent him back).

I believe $20 is a tame lap dance on the chair in the main room.

Here in memphis it's $40/song for bikini dances which is ridiculous... that was "fair" when it was full nude and wild as hell but the pricing hasn't caught up to the laws... hence the clubs going from legendary status here in Platinum Plus heyday, to crap.

There are usually mandatory drink purchases and such in the back as well... though I've never been in the back in Vegas.

I can't even goto a strip club anymore without thinking about how great the early aught's were at Platinum plus... and now a lap dance.. just isn't any fun anymore.

GB the purple church, the greatest strip club i've ever been in

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Checking in to Vdara Thursday night.

Checking in Monday morning
Checking out Monday morning :kicksrock:

I'll high five you as we pass. I'll be the guy with the smoking hot wife

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Checking in to Vdara Thursday night.

Checking in Monday morning
Checking out Monday morning :kicksrock:

I'll high five you as we pass. I'll be the guy with the smoking hot wife

I will look out for you.

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I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

$100 gets you 15 mins / 3 songs in back I believe (from what the bachelor said when we sent him back).

I believe $20 is a tame lap dance on the chair in the main room.

Here in memphis it's $40/song for bikini dances which is ridiculous... that was "fair" when it was full nude and wild as hell but the pricing hasn't caught up to the laws... hence the clubs going from legendary status here in Platinum Plus heyday, to crap.

There are usually mandatory drink purchases and such in the back as well... though I've never been in the back in Vegas.

I can't even goto a strip club anymore without thinking about how great the early aught's were at Platinum plus... and now a lap dance.. just isn't any fun anymore.

GB the purple church, the greatest strip club i've ever been in

:goodposting:

Was basically a live action porn set

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

DO NOT go to the Glitter Gulch in Downtown Vegas. Scammed our bachelor

We sent him back with 1 girl...another girl asked if we wanted her to join him...told her get lost. She went anyway and he assumed it was taken care of then at the end they said he owed $300. We left immediately

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

DO NOT go to the Glitter Gulch in Downtown Vegas. Scammed our bachelor

We sent him back with 1 girl...another girl asked if we wanted her to join him...told her get lost. She went anyway and he assumed it was taken care of then at the end they said he owed $300. We left immediately

well Bogart did ask for the vegas strip club experience.
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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

I am probably telling you that water is indeed wet, but be aware the prices in these clubs are outrageous compared to lots of other parts of the country. If you are trying to really watch the bottom line I suggest pulling a chair up to the dance floor and try and look interested only in dancers on stage vs. ones prowling the crowd, as its the best (o)(o)/$ ratio IMO. Sprinkle in lab dances on the floor, never in the private rooms. Again, this is only if you are worried about spending a ton.

DO NOT go to the Glitter Gulch in Downtown Vegas. Scammed our bachelor

We sent him back with 1 girl...another girl asked if we wanted her to join him...told her get lost. She went anyway and he assumed it was taken care of then at the end they said he owed $300. We left immediately

well Bogart did ask for the vegas strip club experience.

Solid point. At this point, Glitter Gulch might not be a bad idea. The groom to be is not the most modern man. I had to remind him to pack more than cargo shorts and graphic tee shirts on this trip. I have a feeling half the night I'm pretty much going to be:

:wall::wall::wall:

The other half:

:banned::banned::banned:

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The groom to be is not the most modern man. I had to remind him to pack more than cargo shorts and graphic tee shirts on this trip. I have a feeling half the night I'm pretty much going to be:

:wall::wall::wall:

The other half:

:banned::banned::banned:

One of my good buddies wanted to do his bachelor party in Nashville. So we booked some suites at the Opry Hotel and arranged for transportation for bar hopping and whatnot. Everyone was talking about doing a nice dinner to kick off the evening as well. End of the night was going to be a Strip Club stop (turned out to be a mistake in Nashville).

As the evening is getting ready to launch, a bunch of the guys are pre-gaming in one of the suites discussing the evening's plan. The groom walks in wearing a Tommy Pullmyfinger" Beavis and Butthead T-shirt, cago shorts, and Tevas. We immediately roar into a mix of laughter and NOOOO!

I whipped out a spare shirt and another guy had a spare pare of acceptable shoes. The groom THANKFULLY brought a decent pair of jeans... and we were able to get the kid respectable before heading out.

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Thanks, that's actually what I was thinking as well. And it doesn't help to add come bets.

Don't pass and odds has a slightly better return than pass and odds though, I think, but I get that it could diminish the fun of playing with the group.

Is it better to put more on odds if allowed? I am thinking you want to put as much on odds as you can to minimize the house edge.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it doesn't help to add come bets". Adding Come bets increases volatility, especially if you have a limited bankroll. It can be a boring roll if you just have the Pass Line (with Odds) on this sequence: 6 (point), 5, 5, 8, 5, 9, 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 8, 7. Some guys (I'm one of them) would rather throw-out a couple of Come bets (with Odds) to increase their action without eroding their odds against the house. While the 1.41% house edge remains the same, the volatility increases because a 7 wipes the board clean. It's the difference between a $5+Odds loss and 3 $5+Odds losses with one roll of the dice.

Interestingly, increasing Odds doesn't actually impact your EV. $5 on the Pass line has an expected return of $4.9295. Adding $20 in Odds doesn't change that, since the expected return on that $20 is $20. It decreases the house edge on the overall bet, but you're increasing the overall bet.

Don't get me wrong, I would never consider not betting the Odds because at that level of the bet, your odds of losing the Pass Line are actually far greater than 1.41%. Best case scenario, you have 5 winners and 6 losers, or a 45.45% chance of winning, for an expected return of $4.5454, which is a greater house edge than the initial Pass Line bet because you've eliminated the 8/36 winners vs. 4/36 losers on that come-out roll.

Thanks, that's actually what I was thinking as well. And it doesn't help to add come bets.

Don't pass and odds has a slightly better return than pass and odds though, I think, but I get that it could diminish the fun of playing with the group.

Is it better to put more on odds if allowed? I am thinking you want to put as much on odds as you can to minimize the house edge.

Yes, more odds = spreading that house edge thinner across the bets.

Passline = 1.41%

1x Odds = 0.85%

2x Odds = 0.57%

3x Odds = 0.47%

Playing full 3/4/5x Odds = 0.37%

Don't Pass = 1.36%

1x Odds = 0.68%

2x Odds = 0.46%

3x Odds = 0.34%

Playing full 3/4/5x Odds = 0.27%

MOST places in Vegas are 3/4/5x Odds max, though others will allow more. Just understand that your volatility and risk of ruin increase with the scale of each bet size. If you're taking an average of 4x odds on your passline bets, that's putting you at an average bet size of $25/roll (not counting the wins/losses on the comeout, obviously.

Agreed re: edge advantage on Don't pass over Pass is so small that it's not worth losing the camaraderie factor of playing with the table (which is half the fun of Craps).

NOTE: Most casinos will rate your play NOT including odds bets, since there is no THEO on those... so if you're a rewards player and care about that, don't be surprised if they're not throwing suites at you when you're playing 100x odds on your $5 bets :)

Help me understand the math there. I've seen those same charts on what the Odds bets do to the house edge, but I've always struggled with their accuracy because the Odds aren't wagered at the outset of the Pass/Don't Pass wager. It's the same phenomenon on both bets, but let me try to explain on the "Don't" bets, which is where I really struggle conceptually with guys who stack-up Odds there.

You wager $10 on the "Don't Pass" line. You lose with a 7 (6/36) and 11 (2/36) for 8/36 losers. You win with a 2 (1/36) and a 3 (2/36) for 3/36 winners. Eliminating all non-win and non-loss outcomes (dubious I know because only the 12 is a true non-event, but I'm not trying to be precise just convey the concept I've wrestled with), you have a~ 72.73% chance of losing your $10 and a ~27.27% chance of winning $10, for an expected return of $5.454 -- horrible on a $10 risk. Those are not good odds, but the 24/36 combos that give you a Point help offset that and become wagers with a +EV.

Assume a point of either 6 or 8. Now that Don't Pass bet has a +EV -- 6/36 winners, 5/36 losers, or a 54.54% chance of winning. Eliminating all non-win/non-loss outcomes (this is not dubious as those are true non-events), the expected return on that $10 wager at that point is $10.9045. The expected return for a point of 5 or 9 at $10 is $12. The expected return for a point of 4 or 10 is $13.334.

So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

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Generic Vegas question: going this weekend last min for my cousin's wedding. Saturday night he wants the Vegas strip club experience. Best suggestions for club/limo service there? Would prefer not to spend Chet bucks at the club.

All strip clubs will have FREE limo pickup.... Do Rhino IMO. Call them well in advance and explain when/where you want to be picked up. Limo will come get you and you just tip the guy. Be sure and specify you want cover included as well... they will comply.

WHY?

Taxi's have negotiated insane vigs for everyone they bring.... I've heard it's $75-100 a head. Not sure if that's true. Taxis will agressively steer you to whoever is paying them the biggest vig. By bypassing that, the strip club actually comes out ahead by sending a driver to get you... and will USUALLY allow you in (through a back limo-entrance) without cover since they're not having to recoup the vig.

^^ this. Plus rhino will hook you up with 100-200 bottle service pre 7pm. Best deal in the SC arena IMO

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

But from a mathematical standpoint, there is only 1 way to look at it. I mean, it's a question that has an answer. I can't think of any time I would take the opportunity given to me by a positive-return bet to wager a ton of money on a no-edge bet.

I never bet the Don't. Ever. So this has no real-world application to me beyond the math. I do think the phenomenon exists with the Pass/Come wagers, but in the reverse -- there is a larger house edge on those bets once the point is established.

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

But from a mathematical standpoint, there is only 1 way to look at it. I mean, it's a question that has an answer. I can't think of any time I would take the opportunity given to me by a positive-return bet to wager a ton of money on a no-edge bet.

I never bet the Don't. Ever. So this has no real-world application to me beyond the math. I do think the phenomenon exists with the Pass/Come wagers, but in the reverse -- there is a larger house edge on those bets once the point is established.

So no one ever puts place bets on the numbers?

I often like to bet pass line, full odds and then place a unit on 6/8 and if bank roll allows 4/10 in addition to whatever the point is. Usually 6/8 I'll keep the first time those hit. If I have the 4 and 10 the first time they hit I buy them and start collecting if they hit again. If the point hits early then the next roll I'm pressing all my wagers until I can rack $25 chips for a bit.

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

But from a mathematical standpoint, there is only 1 way to look at it. I mean, it's a question that has an answer. I can't think of any time I would take the opportunity given to me by a positive-return bet to wager a ton of money on a no-edge bet.

I never bet the Don't. Ever. So this has no real-world application to me beyond the math. I do think the phenomenon exists with the Pass/Come wagers, but in the reverse -- there is a larger house edge on those bets once the point is established.

then why even make a bet in the first place?

Your initial bet will have a house advantage, while the odds bet does not.

To me, the come out roll allows me to bet a small amount and then bet much larger on the odds bet with a zero house edge. In a sense just using the come out roll to set up the odds bet.

Edited by ghostguy123
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Last time I played craps there was a 10 dollar minimum and they allow up to 100x odds.

Depending on how high a roller you wanna be at the time, throwing 10 on the dont-pass allows you to bet 100 or 200 or so on the odds if you choose to.

That advantage you have on that 10 bucks is fine and all, but really the point of that 10 bucks is to allow you to bet much more on the odds, so giving up that edge you have on the 10 bucks is well worth it. Again, otherwise, why make the initial bet that has a house edge, ya know?

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

But from a mathematical standpoint, there is only 1 way to look at it. I mean, it's a question that has an answer. I can't think of any time I would take the opportunity given to me by a positive-return bet to wager a ton of money on a no-edge bet.

I never bet the Don't. Ever. So this has no real-world application to me beyond the math. I do think the phenomenon exists with the Pass/Come wagers, but in the reverse -- there is a larger house edge on those bets once the point is established.

then why even make a bet in the first place?

Your initial bet will have a house advantage, while the odds bet does not.

To me, the come out roll allows me to bet a small amount and then bet much larger on the odds bet with a zero house edge. In a sense just using the come out roll to set up the odds bet.

Last time I played craps there was a 10 dollar minimum and they allow up to 100x odds.

Depending on how high a roller you wanna be at the time, throwing 10 on the dont-pass allows you to bet 100 or 200 or so on the odds if you choose to.

That advantage you have on that 10 bucks is fine and all, but really the point of that 10 bucks is to allow you to bet much more on the odds, so giving up that edge you have on the 10 bucks is well worth it. Again, otherwise, why make the initial bet that has a house edge, ya know?

If we don't care about the math, we should just bet the Hardways, Big 6/8, Red 7, and Hop Bets -- to hell with the edge. If it's just the action that leads you to bet the Odds on your Don't bets (as I noted above, entertainment is a big part of gambling) then why not bet with the table? The argument I've also heard from guys betting the Don't is that it has better odds than the Do -- fair enough, 1.36% house edge vs. 1.41% house edge overall. But if you're going to bet the Odds, it seems like the actual house edge on the Don't is going to be larger than the Do.

Regardless, I didn't ask for someone to set me straight about opinions on how I bet based on the math as I understand it to be. I asked for someone to help me with the math because my analysis differs from the numbers I've read pretty much everywhere.

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So aren't you actually reducing YOUR advantage as a percentage of money at risk with Odds on a Don't Pass bet? It seems to me that loading-up on Odds (a wager with no house or player edge) erodes your edge at that point and increases your volatility.

After the come out roll, yes.

But it is a separate bet with no house edge, which is how I would likely view it.

Those odds you are looking at represent the odds before that first roll. The odds of things change after that, but if you want to look at it the way you asked, then you will just never take the odds.

But from a mathematical standpoint, there is only 1 way to look at it. I mean, it's a question that has an answer. I can't think of any time I would take the opportunity given to me by a positive-return bet to wager a ton of money on a no-edge bet.

I never bet the Don't. Ever. So this has no real-world application to me beyond the math. I do think the phenomenon exists with the Pass/Come wagers, but in the reverse -- there is a larger house edge on those bets once the point is established.

So no one ever puts place bets on the numbers?

I often like to bet pass line, full odds and then place a unit on 6/8 and if bank roll allows 4/10 in addition to whatever the point is. Usually 6/8 I'll keep the first time those hit. If I have the 4 and 10 the first time they hit I buy them and start collecting if they hit again. If the point hits early then the next roll I'm pressing all my wagers until I can rack $25 chips for a bit.

I'll place the 6 and/or 8 when I'm trying to slow the bleed, because the edge is almost the same as the Pass/Come rolls. On a $10 table, I can place both for $24 vs. $25 ($10 +$15 odds) for a single number on the Come line. If I hit a couple, I might use those winnings to make a Come bet. Placing 4/10 is a pretty big house edge -- 6.67%. You should buy them instead (4.76% house edge).

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Regardless, I didn't ask for someone to set me straight about opinions on how I bet based on the math as I understand it to be. I asked for someone to help me with the math because my analysis differs from the numbers I've read pretty much everywhere.

So you are thinking the house edge on the PASS line should be lower than for the DONT PASS then?

Before the initial roll there is a slightly better house edge on the DONT PASS, correct? Placing an odds bet after the come out roll doesnt change that.

However, you are looking at the math from when the point is made on a DONT PASS bet. Yes, the math changes at that point. Yes, you are slightly lowering that edge you have by placing the odds bet, but you are still making a bet with the best odds in the house, which is NO house edge on the odds.

That bet also allow you to bet a much much higher amount on a bet that has no house edge.

I can't help you with this math using equations or anything, but I can't agree with your thought that the house edge should be HIGHER on the DONT PASS when betting odds (if that is what you are saying).

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Regardless, I didn't ask for someone to set me straight about opinions on how I bet based on the math as I understand it to be. I asked for someone to help me with the math because my analysis differs from the numbers I've read pretty much everywhere.

So you are thinking the house edge on the PASS line should be lower than for the DONT PASS then?

Before the initial roll there is a slightly better house edge on the DONT PASS, correct? Placing an odds bet after the come out roll doesnt change that.

However, you are looking at the math from when the point is made on a DONT PASS bet. Yes, the math changes at that point. Yes, you are slightly lowering that edge you have by placing the odds bet, but you are still making a bet with the best odds in the house, which is NO house edge on the odds.

That bet also allow you to bet a much much higher amount on a bet that has no house edge.

I can't help you with this math using equations or anything, but I can't agree with your thought that the house edge should be HIGHER on the DONT PASS when betting odds (if that is what you are saying).

I definitely get the though thought process of "why bet an odds bet on this 4 when I already have money on DONT PASS, and a 7 is way more likely than a 4".

It's just a separate bet at that point.

I get that it's a separate wager, but I venture that almost no one thinks of it that way while playing.

I also get that in either situation, the Odds wagers don't change the expected return -- a wager of x on y that pays exactly the odds of y occurring has an expected return of x. If I walk up to the table and bet $10 on Don't Pass, my expected loss is $0.136. If I walk up to the table and bet $10 on Pass, my expected loss of $0.141. That doesn't change if I bet $0 on the Odds or if I bet $1000 on the Odds. That's over the long, long, long haul of course, but that's the math.

Conceptually, however, I struggle with understanding the dynamic of simply treating the house edge for an Odds wager as if that Odds wager (at a 0 house edge) is with the Pass/Don't wager throughout the entire bet -- it isn't.

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Conceptually, however, I struggle with understanding the dynamic of simply treating the house edge for an Odds wager as if that Odds wager (at a 0 house edge) is with the Pass/Don't wager throughout the entire bet -- it isn't.

I hear ya. I don't play the DONT PASS much either, and when I do I don't put down any odds (i have but rare).

I am not sure if I don't play odds there because I feel good about my bet winning after the come out roll with the advantage you mentioned, or if I don't want to piss off the table somehow. Always strange to see everyone all sad while that one guy over on the side gets some chips sent his way.

And yes, those house edge numbers are based on the edge before the come out roll. Things do change once some info is known, sorta like the odds change based on the cards shown in blackjack. Do you double down when you have 10 and the dealer has a 6 showing? How bout when the dealer has a face card showing?

But conceptually, putting odds on the dont pass isn't really lowering your edge any. You still get that edge on your initial bet, but now you are just adding another bet with no house edge. Your % edge will decrease with the total wager with the addition of the odds, but that % edge is still there on that initial bet. The odds bet does nothing to your original bet. Just the way I look at it.

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Conceptually, however, I struggle with understanding the dynamic of simply treating the house edge for an Odds wager as if that Odds wager (at a 0 house edge) is with the Pass/Don't wager throughout the entire bet -- it isn't.

I hear ya. I don't play the DONT PASS much either, and when I do I don't put down any odds (i have but rare).

I am not sure if I don't play odds there because I feel good about my bet winning after the come out roll with the advantage you mentioned, or if I don't want to piss off the table somehow. Always strange to see everyone all sad while that one guy over on the side gets some chips sent his way.

And yes, those house edge numbers are based on the edge before the come out roll. Things do change once some info is known, sorta like the odds change based on the cards shown in blackjack. Do you double down when you have 10 and the dealer has a 6 showing? How bout when the dealer has a face card showing?

But conceptually, putting odds on the dont pass isn't really lowering your edge any. You still get that edge on your initial bet, but now you are just adding another bet with no house edge. Your % edge will decrease with the total wager with the addition of the odds, but that % edge is still there on that initial bet. The odds bet does nothing to your original bet. Just the way I look at it.

Always, but that's jumping at the chance to increase a wager once you have now shifted from a -EV game to a +EV game. If they would allow me to double my even-money Don't Pass bet once the point was set I would jump at that chance, but that's not what the Odds bet is.

Edited by Tennessee_ATO
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Always, but that's jumping at the chance to increase a wager once you have now shifted from a -EV game to a +EV game. If they would allow me to double my even-money Don't Pass bet once the point was set I would jump at that chance, but that's not what the Odds bet is.

The odds bets is the same whether your initial bet is with pass or dontpass.

I view it as a separate bet. That's just how we differ on that.

That, and I use the come out roll to bet real small (ideally I can find a $5 table) and then use the odds bet to throw down much more.

I mean, if you bet 5 bucks on dontpass, are you REALLY going to let that keep you from throwing down 100-200 on the odds simply because that 5 dollar wager looks real good right now?

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Always, but that's jumping at the chance to increase a wager once you have now shifted from a -EV game to a +EV game. If they would allow me to double my even-money Don't Pass bet once the point was set I would jump at that chance, but that's not what the Odds bet is.

The odds bets is the same whether your initial bet is with pass or dontpass.

I view it as a separate bet. That's just how we differ on that.

That, and I use the come out roll to bet real small (ideally I can find a $5 table) and then use the odds bet to throw down much more.

I mean, if you bet 5 bucks on dontpass, are you REALLY going to let that keep you from throwing down 100-200 on the odds simply because that 5 dollar wager looks real good right now?

No. I bet it on the Odds on my Pass bet. Wagering $200 to win $100 on a 4/10 doesn't appeal to me even if it's a "fair" payout.

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Always, but that's jumping at the chance to increase a wager once you have now shifted from a -EV game to a +EV game. If they would allow me to double my even-money Don't Pass bet once the point was set I would jump at that chance, but that's not what the Odds bet is.

The odds bets is the same whether your initial bet is with pass or dontpass.

I view it as a separate bet. That's just how we differ on that.

That, and I use the come out roll to bet real small (ideally I can find a $5 table) and then use the odds bet to throw down much more.

I mean, if you bet 5 bucks on dontpass, are you REALLY going to let that keep you from throwing down 100-200 on the odds simply because that 5 dollar wager looks real good right now?

No. I bet it on the Odds on my Pass bet. Wagering $200 to win $100 on a 4/10 doesn't appeal to me even if it's a "fair" payout.

Fair enough.

And I don't bet on pass or dontpass unless I am betting small and then go 5-10x odds. It just sucks when the lowest table minimum is 15 or more. I prefer not to throw out hundreds per bet.

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How bout this for a stupid example.

Let's say the odds paid paid you SLIGHTLY more than the actual odds.

Say you bet 100 on the come out roll on dontpass, and it is a 4. Let's say the odds on 4 paid out 2.1-1 for this example.

Would you still opt to not put down an odds bet because it lowers your vig?

Edited by ghostguy123
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Casino gambling thread is great for this discussion. I've been staying out for the most part to avoid cluttering this one up.

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Just a heads up for anybody that uses hotwire... If you get the prompt at the top that says "hurry the last person got The Palazzo" it is not always correct and in fact can state a hotel that is impossible based on the amenities listed. So just ignore that prompt and focus only on the amenities.

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Headed out this weekend. Staying at the Venetian. Looking for restaurant recommendations, breakfast, lunch or dinner. Read through everything since December in this thead. Didn't see much other than Border Grill being mentioned. Unlikely to eat at Mix or Bouchon as we have in the past. Food was great, but there is so much Vegas has to offer prefer to get to new places.

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Headed out this weekend. Staying at the Venetian. Looking for restaurant recommendations, breakfast, lunch or dinner. Read through everything since December in this thead. Didn't see much other than Border Grill being mentioned. Unlikely to eat at Mix or Bouchon as we have in the past. Food was great, but there is so much Vegas has to offer prefer to get to new places.

I recommend Cut between the Venetian and the Palazzo. Wolfgang Puck's Steakhouse. Awesome steaks, Great music (classic rock), Knowledgeable wait staff (who all dress like managers). Also the Pretzel bread is awesome. Can get a bit pricey, but to me, it has been worth it.

Also at the Palazzo is Sushi Samba which is a good fusion sushi place.

I have never eaten there, but Mon Ami Gabi at Paris always seems to get good reviews in this thread.

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