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Vick Indicted ! ?


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Just because you are indicted does not automatically mean you are convicted.

not automatically, but we're talking about the feds. it's close enough.
The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.
This was also pre-Goodell and all the other mess that's been going on lately.
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FWIW... Read this the other day. If it were to ever come to that point, the Falcons might have an "out" and be able to void Vick's contract based on conduct:

Tue Jul 10, 2007 --from FFMastermind.com

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports on that giddy day in December 2004 when the Falcons signed QB Michael Vick to a 10-year, $130 million contract, Arthur Blank gushed: "He's a Falcon for life." Vick's contract, though, is not nearly as binding as the Falcons owner's words suggested. If, theoretically, the Falcons wanted to trade or release their embattled quarterback, his contract would not necessarily preclude it. The biggest hurdle would be the impact against the team's salary cap, but that impact, although still hefty, shrank as of June 1. The hit would be $6 million-plus for 2007 and about $15 million for 2008. Property owned by Vick is at the center of an ongoing investigation of an alleged widespread dogfighting operation. The Falcons repeatedly have declined to comment on the situation and did so again Monday, three days after federal investigators executed a second search warrant at Vick's Surry County, Va., property. The Falcons have given no indication of any inclination to unload Vick, who has been involved in a series of off-field controversies. But from a contractual standpoint, what would happen if the team got to that point with him? NFL contracts, unlike those in Major League Baseball, the NBA and the NHL, are not fully guaranteed. That means football players are assured of receiving only the portions of their contracts that are stipulated to be guaranteed — generally signing bonuses. Vick's contract included $37 million in guaranteed bonuses. The rest is in base salary, which increases each year, payable only as long as he remains on the team. The NFL's standard player contract stipulates various grounds under which clubs may terminate the contract. One such stipulation: ". . . f player has engaged in personal conduct reasonably judged by Club to adversely affect or reflect on Club, then Club may terminate this contract." If a contract is terminated under that clause, the player has the right to file a grievance and have an arbitrator decide whether the club acted reasonably.

All contracts these days have that language. As I referenced above the team itself could opt to it get involved here under the conduct unbecoming clause, but IIRC they still would be on the hook for the salary cap mess that Vick would leave behind.

That's basically what the Eagles did with T.O. and I know they amended some of the rules after that, so I am not sure what the options here would be.

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Just because you are indicted does not automatically mean you are convicted.

not automatically, but we're talking about the feds. it's close enough.
The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.
i don't know if he gets suspended now, later or never. my only point was that a federal indictment is a big deal, and the feds have an astonishingly good conviction rate.that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.
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I think some suspension is coming soon. he lied to Goodell repeatedly. Let's not forget that Tank Johnson got suspended for a crime he had already served his sentence for. That tells me that Goodell's suspension policy is not tied to the actions of law enforcement, as does the Pacman case of course.

This is what I was talking about earlier. This is what could bury Vick:

What can the federal government do to Vick?

The USDA and other federal agencies will now be sifting through all aspects of his life. The dogfighting investigation easily could grow into examinations of his income, taxes and other holdings. If they find sufficient evidence, the federal agencies will submit it to the U.S. Department of Justice and then, possibly, to a grand jury for indictment.

I would be shocked if this didn't lead to a very thorough examination of his kennels, which is where I expect a lot of his winnings would have been laundered. If he's using the kennels to launder money, that's a whole new crime to come out of this.

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"conspiracy to traffic in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture in U.S"

Is this one charge? If so, whats the legal limit on the number of "in"'s one can you fit into one charge? How have these cases went before?

The violation is per dog ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2905920

I am no criminal attorney. Bush signed this law upping the federal penalties in May of 2007. Can it be applied retroactively? Were there violations after the law was signed?

I guarantee you there is some sort of legally recognizable charge -- the only issue I would think is do the new stiffer penalties apply. US Attorneys dont mess around ...

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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
Yep, a precedent has been set. The precedent that the NFLPA is letting Goodell clean stuff up. Pacman is suspended and the NFLPA isn't doing anything about it. Same with Chris Henry. Same with Tank Johnson.
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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
I don't remember, was PacMan indicted of anything?I know for sure he was suspended without conviction.
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that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.

IIRC, the new sheriff still waited for the players that he suspended to be either found guilty or plead guilty to a lesser charge. He has not shown, at least that I can see, where he has enforced a suspension without due process.
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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
I don't know that the NFLPA is going to want to take too strong a stand on this one...
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that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.

IIRC, the new sheriff still waited for the players that he suspended to be either found guilty or plead guilty to a lesser charge. He has not shown, at least that I can see, where he has enforced a suspension without due process.
I dont think Pacman has been convicted of anything ...
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that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.

IIRC, the new sheriff still waited for the players that he suspended to be either found guilty or plead guilty to a lesser charge. He has not shown, at least that I can see, where he has enforced a suspension without due process.
Pacman?
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that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.

IIRC, the new sheriff still waited for the players that he suspended to be either found guilty or plead guilty to a lesser charge. He has not shown, at least that I can see, where he has enforced a suspension without due process.
Unless I'm mistaken, Pacman was suspended without even being charged, much less indicted.
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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
I don't remember, was PacMan indicted of anything?I know for sure he was suspended without conviction.
IIRC, he plead guilt to misdemeanor charges that were reduced from felony charges. And he had about 4 other charges in multiple other states which was when he got suspended. I believe the league waited for him to be on record of actually having some confirmed conviction or legal admittance before taking any action.
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that said, i'm not sure that what happened a few years ago with lewis is all that relevant today. there's a new sheriff in town.

IIRC, the new sheriff still waited for the players that he suspended to be either found guilty or plead guilty to a lesser charge. He has not shown, at least that I can see, where he has enforced a suspension without due process.
Unless I'm mistaken, Pacman was suspended without even being charged, much less indicted.
Charged with crimes, yes. Convicted or "plead out", I dont think so ...
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"conspiracy to traffic in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture in U.S"

Is this one charge? If so, whats the legal limit on the number of "in"'s one can you fit into one charge? How have these cases went before?

The violation is per dog ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2905920

I am no criminal attorney. Bush signed this law upping the federal penalties in May of 2007. Can it be applied retroactively? Were there violations after the law was signed?

I guarantee you there is some sort of legally recognizable charge -- the only issue I would think is do the new stiffer penalties apply. US Attorneys dont mess around ...

Exactly, the way I read that, if these dog fights took place more than a month ago, which I'm sure they did, he'd be "grandfathered in" under the old law, I would think, which as it states, is a misdemeanor. Although, it sounds like there are quite a few other possible inplications in play here besides just that law, as another poster mentioned.
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IMO, this is the end of Vick's career. With everything that could grow from this investigation, he could be fighting the court case for over a year, and I would not be at all surprised to see the Falcons cut him. Things don't sound good for a not-guilty verdict, and if the other RICO-type charges come in, he could be looking at 20 long with Parole in seven. He can't come back to the NFL after something like that. Again, just MO.

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"conspiracy to traffic in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture in U.S"

Is this one charge? If so, whats the legal limit on the number of "in"'s one can you fit into one charge? How have these cases went before?

The violation is per dog ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2905920

I am no criminal attorney. Bush signed this law upping the federal penalties in May of 2007. Can it be applied retroactively? Were there violations after the law was signed?

I guarantee you there is some sort of legally recognizable charge -- the only issue I would think is do the new stiffer penalties apply. US Attorneys dont mess around ...

Exactly, the way I read that, if these dog fights took place more than a month ago, which I'm sure they did, he'd be "grandfathered in" under the old law, I would think, which as it states, is a misdemeanor. Although, it sounds like there are quite a few other possible inplications in play here besides just that law, as another poster mentioned.
Yeah, he is screwed. There are still possible state charges. They will comb all his financial transactions. The resources of the feds are without limit and frankly, this is going to be out of control for Vick ...

And extremely harmful to one of my dynasty teams which was reeling anyway ...

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Regardless of whether Vick is suspended, this has an incredible impact on his value. Vick lacks maturity and nothing I have seen gives me confidence that he has the ability to put the negative press behind him. He is going to be demonized in every stadium that he plays, including the Falcon's stadium. The fans love their dogs, Vick is dogmeat.

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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:bag: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
So you're saying every country in Europe has US extradition laws? :rolleyes:
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The feds were involved with Jamal Lewis and he was not suspended until AFTER the case, not before or during it IIRC.

Way different time with a way different commissioner.
A precident has been set already, though, and the NFLPA could point to that as the way the league operates. Members of the Supreme Court change too but the rulings have almost always stayed the same. Not exaclt apples to apples I know but just an example.
I don't remember, was PacMan indicted of anything?I know for sure he was suspended without conviction.
IIRC, he plead guilt to misdemeanor charges that were reduced from felony charges. And he had about 4 other charges in multiple other states which was when he got suspended. I believe the league waited for him to be on record of actually having some confirmed conviction or legal admittance before taking any action.
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that he hadn't plead guilty to anything before he was suspended. That's one reason why so many people were up in arms about it. Jones even stated himself something to the effect of "I ain't even been indicted" when he meant "convicted."Vick is in a lot of trouble. I'm not even talking suspension trouble. I'm talking go to prison for several years trouble. If they have evidence showing that he's the ringleader and that he was involved with gambling, he could be looking at several years in federal prison for this. Does anyone actually think that if this continues down this road, that the Falcons will put him out on the field as a face of their franchise? Sorry, but anyone that believes that has some sort of vested interest in Vick and has their head where the sun don't shine. IMO, his career as a Falcon is over and his career with the NFL may very well be over as well.I have to at least give Yudkin props for showing his head and trying to put some sort of positive Vick spin on this. There's going to be quite a few other people that probably won't want to be showing themselves for a while.
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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:bag: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
Ya, he's better off going to South America somewhere. Better laws on extradition, and I don't think they're dog people...more like llama people.
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I have to disagree with Dodds and Yudkin on this one. I don't think there's any way Vick is on the field when the season starts. The Commissioner has a lot of latitude in dealing out suspensions, he has repeatedly referred to the image of the game as his overriding principle, and this Vick mess is a major black eye to the league. He simply can't ignore this while waiting for an actual conviction. Remember, due process (innocent until proven guilty) is a legal concept, and the NFL is not bound by the same standards when suspending players.

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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:bag: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
So you're saying every country in Europe has US extradition laws? :rolleyes:
Countries without treaties nor diplomatic relationsThe countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extradition treaties with the U.S. are: Bhutan, Iran, North Korea, and the Republic of China (Taiwan) (which the United States does not consider a country under the One-China Policy).So ummmmm, yeah.Edit: This looks like a more complete list Countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extraditiontreaties with the US are Andorra, Angola, Bantu Homelands, Bhutan,Bosnia, Cambodia, Ciskei, Cuba, Iran, Korea (North), Libya, Maldives,Serbia, Somalia, Taiwan, Transkei, Vanuatu, and Vietnam."So ummmm still yeah.
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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:bag: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
Ya, he's better off going to South America somewhere. Better laws on extradition, and I don't think they're dog people...more like llama people.
"The Mike Vick Story"Directed By40 SPECIALLY TRAINEDECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS6 VENEZUELAN RED LLAMAS142 MEXICAN WHOOPING LLAMAS14 NORTH CHILEAN GUANACOS(CLOSELY RELATED TO THE LLAMA)REG LLAMA OF BRIXTON76000 BATTERY LLAMASFROM "LLAMA-FRESH" FARMS LTD. NEAR PARAGUAY
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It's Federal.....it's no joke. I would be hard pressed to believe that Michael Vick will not receive some type of NFL suspension or "leave of absence" this year. Ask yourself.....does the NFL want to be associated with a Federally indicted illegal dog fighter?

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I wonder if owner Blank might not just tell Mike to have a seat for the season. I've read rumblings that he is really PO'd with Vick. They can see what they can get out of Shockley/Harrington/Redman.

Uh, you don't sit your franchise QB to see how the crappy QBs will do in the NFL.Last time Vick was hurt attendance fell by 50%. Vick is the Falcons. Team is something close to 3-14 without him. Harrington? Seriously? I like Shockley, but if they brought in Harrington to be a backup, that doesn't say much about him. Redman? They must really want the 1st overall pick next year.Unless suspended, Vick will be starting. Because he gives them the best chance to win, end of story.
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I guess that settles Yudkin's question of VY vs. Vick.

Nope. At least not IMO. Just because you are indicted does not automatically mean you are convicted.IIRC, the league waits for a player to be tried and convicted or plea bargains before they take disciplinary action. How quickly does the system of jurice prudence work in this country? Didn't Barry Bonds get indicted? Was he suspended? All that would have to happen within 6 months for a suspension to occur for this season (and that would be around the last week or two of the season). Even so, Vick could always appeal through the NFLPA and drag things out.At this point I still don't see Vick in danger of missing time from suspension (unless the Falcons want to try to do something on their own).
Are you serious? He's done for a year minimum and he just may spend that year incarcerated.
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Reports are they if the dogs didn't perform up to standards there were three ways in which he/they killed them:

Hanging

Drowning

Slamming the bodies to the ground.

:bag:

Vick = Scumgbag

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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:confused: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
Ya, he's better off going to South America somewhere. Better laws on extradition, and I don't think they're dog people...more like llama people.
"The Mike Vick Story"Directed By40 SPECIALLY TRAINEDECUADORIAN MOUNTAIN LLAMAS6 VENEZUELAN RED LLAMAS142 MEXICAN WHOOPING LLAMAS14 NORTH CHILEAN GUANACOS(CLOSELY RELATED TO THE LLAMA)REG LLAMA OF BRIXTON76000 BATTERY LLAMASFROM "LLAMA-FRESH" FARMS LTD. NEAR PARAGUAY
You must bring me...A SHRUBBERY!!!!
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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:confused: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
Isn't Roman Polanski free to live in certain European countries even though he is wanted in the U.S. for having sex with a minor?
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Are you serious? He's done for a year minimum and he just may spend that year incarcerated.

*ROFL* You've already got him in jail?Vick, the extremely rich NFL QB, will be fine.
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I wonder if owner Blank might not just tell Mike to have a seat for the season. I've read rumblings that he is really PO'd with Vick. They can see what they can get out of Shockley/Harrington/Redman.

Uh, you don't sit your franchise QB to see how the crappy QBs will do in the NFL.Last time Vick was hurt attendance fell by 50%. Vick is the Falcons. Team is something close to 3-14 without him. Harrington? Seriously? I like Shockley, but if they brought in Harrington to be a backup, that doesn't say much about him. Redman? They must really want the 1st overall pick next year.Unless suspended, Vick will be starting. Because he gives them the best chance to win, end of story.
What about T.O.?
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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:confused: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
So you're saying every country in Europe has US extradition laws? :popcorn:
Countries without treaties nor diplomatic relationsThe countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extradition treaties with the U.S. are: Bhutan, Iran, North Korea, and the Republic of China (Taiwan) (which the United States does not consider a country under the One-China Policy).So ummmmm, yeah.
You're forgetting Brazil, if he fathers a child to a Brazilian woman. They won't extradite under those circumstances. Or, if he converts to Judaism he can appeal to be tried in Israel instead.Just saying...
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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:confused:

Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...

Isn't Roman Polanski free to live in certain European countries even though he is wanted in the U.S. for having sex with a minor?
He was born in France

Polanski fled to France, where he retained citizenship. He believed that the judge was going to disregard the plea bargain, in which case he could be sentenced to a prison term (albeit much less than the 50 years he faced under the original indictment). Like many countries, France refuses to extradite its own citizens, which is consistent with the extradition treaty between France and the United States.

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If Vick is smart he will get on a private jet to Europe and not look back.

:confused: Because everyone knows there is no extradition from "Europe"...
So you're saying every country in Europe has US extradition laws? :popcorn:
Countries without treaties nor diplomatic relationsThe countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extradition treaties with the U.S. are: Bhutan, Iran, North Korea, and the Republic of China (Taiwan) (which the United States does not consider a country under the One-China Policy).So ummmmm, yeah.Edit: This looks like a more complete list Countries which have neither diplomatic relations nor extraditiontreaties with the US are Andorra, Angola, Bantu Homelands, Bhutan,Bosnia, Cambodia, Ciskei, Cuba, Iran, Korea (North), Libya, Maldives,Serbia, Somalia, Taiwan, Transkei, Vanuatu, and Vietnam."So ummmm still yeah.
Still some Euro countries in there so um yeah.Cuba looks to be the best though, lol.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2940065

I had a feeling that this thing wasn't over. Now we can start talking suspension. I think he could easily get 8 games just for being indicted, especially given the thorough and careful nature of the investigation.

Seriously doubt it. Indicted is not convicted. I know, Pacman wasn't convicted either, but his involvement was pretty clear cut and came with a laundry list of other issues. Vick has never had any prior problems, (other than giving the fans the finger). The NFL will take the wait-and-see approach on this I think. But if he's convicted, they'll bring the hammer down.
Anyone else think "indicted on conspiracy to transport dogs used in dog-fighting" sounds like the weakest of charges possible? I am also in the camp that I think the Commish waits for a conviction here first before leveling any suspension due to what looks like a pretty weak indictment. My take is this doesn't impact Vick's games played this season.
No way one way or another it affects Vick bigtime. The animal rights people are going to crucify Vick and anyone who backs him and its going to be very very ugly. He may as well retire IMO. Atlanta may even drop him from the roster before this is over, do you have any idea how bad this is for that franchise?. In the indictment there is talk off killing dogs who were bad fighters by hanging and beat downs and drowning. Its over for Vick David get over it now. This guy is now a true piece of crap and i hope he rots in hell and never plays another game.
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I have to disagree with Dodds and Yudkin on this one. I don't think there's any way Vick is on the field when the season starts. The Commissioner has a lot of latitude in dealing out suspensions, he has repeatedly referred to the image of the game as his overriding principle, and this Vick mess is a major black eye to the league. He simply can't ignore this while waiting for an actual conviction. Remember, due process (innocent until proven guilty) is a legal concept, and the NFL is not bound by the same standards when suspending players.

I would rue the day that the NFL suspends someone for an extended period and then that player be cleared of wrongdoing or found not guilty in court. The lawsuit against them would be HUGE.From what I've been reading, there seem to be some differences in this case compared to other dog fighting cases including federal involvement, the amount of resources being allocated to it, how things have been handled, etc.Vick's attorneys could very well contend that he is receiving unfair treatment for being a famous athlete if indeed these types of cases typically are handled differently and have led to less severe outcomes.I clearly am not a lawyer and have no legal credentials, so take everything with a grain of salt.To also clarify, I am not supporting Vick at all but am only referencing what traditionally has been the wait and see approach that the league has shown in the past. I personally think Vick is not all sweet and innocent, but again it's not my place to try him. I know the new sherriff has said he does not want to wait on outcomes and wants to get involved sooner. We'll have to see what happens, I guess.
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Does anyone out there think that DJ Shockley could get a shot to start in training camp? Anyone else feeling sorry for Bobby Petrino right now?

I feel better for Patrino, VICK HAS BEEN THE MOST OVERATED PIECE OF CRAP IN FOOTBALL PERIOD. Now the Falcons get to move on and get a QB, Harrington will be much, much better then Vick. They Can trade or draft an upgrade later. Who knows maybe Daunte goes to the Falcons, that would funny Daunte and Harrington reunited once again.
Much better QB. bAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA.Dante. bahahahaha.Vick has won more playoffs games then Brees/LT combined. Harrington has never sniffed the playoffs.It's awesome that you're such a shrewd judge of talent, yet the Falcons are giving Vick 130 million. You could have saved them a lot of money huh? Crazy how dumb NFL people are. And how bright and savvy guys like "mdog" are.Vick will be fine. He has lots of lawyers, and the charges seem to be grasping at straws. He won't miss a game.
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Are you serious? He's done for a year minimum and he just may spend that year incarcerated.

*ROFL* You've already got him in jail?Vick, the extremely rich NFL QB, will be fine.
This is federal. $$ doesn't buy you freedom when it's a federal matter. It can give you a better chance than some regular schmoe, but if the Feds have the evidence on him (and it would seem that they do), then he's going down. Maybe he'll get lucky and come away with just a really huge fine, but if this goes to trial, I think he's going to jail.
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I guess that settles Yudkin's question of VY vs. Vick.

Nope. At least not IMO. Just because you are indicted does not automatically mean you are convicted.IIRC, the league waits for a player to be tried and convicted or plea bargains before they take disciplinary action. How quickly does the system of jurice prudence work in this country? Didn't Barry Bonds get indicted? Was he suspended? All that would have to happen within 6 months for a suspension to occur for this season (and that would be around the last week or two of the season). Even so, Vick could always appeal through the NFLPA and drag things out.At this point I still don't see Vick in danger of missing time from suspension (unless the Falcons want to try to do something on their own).
Are you serious? He's done for a year minimum and he just may spend that year incarcerated.
I meant missing time THIS season. He could be gone for all of 2008.
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