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Betty dying wasn't a stretch. Her mother died of cancer and she smokes like a chimney. I also thought it worked in that it allowed Sally to become arguably the one honest-to-goodness adult in that extended family.

What about Bobby #3 or whatever his burnt toast dinner?

But seriously, the only reason to involve Betty back in the story should have been how it relates to Don. Don spent like less than 5 minutes of screen time with Betty's illness. Betty hasn't been a big part of the show in forever. Killing her was just a cheap move to pull at peoples emotions.

Totally disagree, if you want to argue anything Peggy and Stan was a cheap move, but having Betty dying helped to show Don how he really didn't have any family and all he really had was his advertising genius.

He didn't have any family even if Betty had lived. He's always been detached from them. He was willing to leave them and move to California in season 1. Nothing really changed for Don...ever. :shrug:

Yes, but he still thought he did. It took the phone calls to Betty and Sally for him to realize that.

And the whole series of phone calls (over scenes together) was needed to show how divorced and alone he really was in the world (mirroring Leonard's speech in the final therapy session).

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Just finished binge watching this show after never seeing an episode - awesome show!  Second only to Breaking Bad for me. I haven't read any of the thread, so I'm guessing I'm in the minority whe

The magic of Peggy is that she never actually knew what kind of girl she was. Rather, she was bound & determined not to be afraid of whatever that turned out be be. I looooved them gals backinaday

sound a fire alarm and you'll find out

I see what you're saying but the fact this happened through phone calls in the last episode of the whole series made it feel cheap.

I don't have a problem with killing Betty as an idea but it just seemed tacked on like everything else this season. If you want to kill Betty, why not do it at the beginning of the season and let it actually drive some action in the story.

The funny thing is that when some of us complained that they were wasting time early in the season, people defending the show said that it wasn't the type of show that needed all ends tied. Well, they actually ended up tying neat little bows around EVERYTHING. But the problem was there was no momentum for any of it really. #### just happened and then it was the end.

Edited by Hang 10
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When they filmed the calls, Betty's and Sally's were done on set, so they were offstage reading lines to him. Since he was on location when calling Peggy, Hamm ended up asking them to actually put her on the phone to feel more of the connection.

It definitely worked. I thought that was arguably the strongest scene in the episode. But I'm partial to Don-Peggy scenes.

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I see what you're saying but the fact this happened through phone calls in the last episode of the whole series made it feel cheap.

I don't have a problem with killing Betty as an idea but it just seemed tacked on like everything else this season. If you want to kill Betty, why not do it at the beginning of the season and let it actually drive some action in the story.

The funny thing is that when some of us complained that they were wasting time early in the season, people defending the show said that it wasn't the type of show that needed all ends tied. Well, they actually ended up tying neat little bows around EVERYTHING. But the problem was there was no momentum for any of it really. #### just happened and then it was the end.

Totally disagree with this. There was no neat little bow on Peggy, Joan, Roger, Sally, etc. The finale just showed them starting to take the next step in their lives...who knows where any of it ends up. Don returns to advertising, hardly a neat little bow. To me, a neat little bow would be text on the screen..."In 1980, Peggy Olson became the first female...she and Stan now have 4 kids and live in...." and so on.

I really don't know how else he could have done it. If it had just been another day at the office, people would be griping that "nothing happened"..."we need closure!"

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It was 1970 and it was a retreat.

Hell, it looked more EST-like than "commune".

When the girl told Don where she was going and wanted to take him there my first thought was Weiner was going to troll everyone by having it turn out to the Manson Family.

They were already on trial by then.

I never thought there would be any real connection to the Manson Family on the show so I hadn't even bothered to look at whether the timelines were matching up at all.

You're no Sepinwall. :rolleyes:

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It was 1970 and it was a retreat.

Hell, it looked more EST-like than "commune".

When the girl told Don where she was going and wanted to take him there my first thought was Weiner was going to troll everyone by having it turn out to the Manson Family.

They were already on trial by then.

I never thought there would be any real connection to the Manson Family on the show so I hadn't even bothered to look at whether the timelines were matching up at all.

You're no Sepinwall. :rolleyes:

Sorry?

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Here's Hamm's idea for a Mad Men spinoff. I'd totally watch this show:

"We want to watch Sally grow up and live through the 70s and turn into a rockstar and turn into, like, Joan Jett or something. You know, ride a motorcycle and kill a guy and make a bunch of money and become Oliver Stone in the 80s and then date Kurt Cobain in the 90s because she’s just so cool and she’s a touchstone for every generation. I mean, yeah, I’d watch that show. I think everyone would watch that show. Sally Through the Decades."

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I see what you're saying but the fact this happened through phone calls in the last episode of the whole series made it feel cheap.

I don't have a problem with killing Betty as an idea but it just seemed tacked on like everything else this season. If you want to kill Betty, why not do it at the beginning of the season and let it actually drive some action in the story.

The funny thing is that when some of us complained that they were wasting time early in the season, people defending the show said that it wasn't the type of show that needed all ends tied. Well, they actually ended up tying neat little bows around EVERYTHING. But the problem was there was no momentum for any of it really. #### just happened and then it was the end.

Totally disagree with this. There was no neat little bow on Peggy, Joan, Roger, Sally, etc. The finale just showed them starting to take the next step in their lives...who knows where any of it ends up. Don returns to advertising, hardly a neat little bow. To me, a neat little bow would be text on the screen..."In 1980, Peggy Olson became the first female...she and Stan now have 4 kids and live in...." and so on.

I really don't know how else he could have done it. If it had just been another day at the office, people would be griping that "nothing happened"..."we need closure!"

The next step in their lives is not tying a loose end? Unless they were to all be killed in a plane crash, what else is there?

What could have happened was a setup and pay off to the final season. Not just a collections of happily ever afters that mostly came out of the blue.

ETA: What the main problem for me was Don's story. He's the main focus of the show and the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don. For the most part, Don was just gone or dealing characters that he had no history or future with (the waitress for an example). So Don's story was aimless and the rest of the characters really had nothing to do but find their happy ending. It sucked.

Edited by Hang 10
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the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don.

That's your opinion. I'd say Peggy is one of the only main characters I can think of who had her best moments interacting with Don. Most of these characters had an entire life outside of Don, that he only knew a bit about. If you were ONLY interested in their interactions with Draper, that's on you. The show started as revolving completely around Don, but it grew into many separate stories that deserved their own endings, separate from Don. He was going through a transformative period in the final season, and took off. When that happens, people move on. Sounds like you're in the same boat as Draper here "did the place fall apart without me?" No, it kept on going, and we got those endings.

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the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don.

That's your opinion. I'd say Peggy is one of the only main characters I can think of who had her best moments interacting with Don. Most of these characters had an entire life outside of Don, that he only knew a bit about. If you were ONLY interested in their interactions with Draper, that's on you. The show started as revolving completely around Don, but it grew into many separate stories that deserved their own endings, separate from Don. He was going through a transformative period in the final season, and took off. When that happens, people move on. Sounds like you're in the same boat as Draper here "did the place fall apart without me?" No, it kept on going, and we got those endings.

Right, the show had some direction when it was centered around Don. The story got muddled when Wiener didn't know to do with him and the show began to suffer. Would anyone deny that the show dropped in quality over time?

What separate stories are you talking about? I just saw pointless endings.

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the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don.

That's your opinion. I'd say Peggy is one of the only main characters I can think of who had her best moments interacting with Don. Most of these characters had an entire life outside of Don, that he only knew a bit about. If you were ONLY interested in their interactions with Draper, that's on you. The show started as revolving completely around Don, but it grew into many separate stories that deserved their own endings, separate from Don. He was going through a transformative period in the final season, and took off. When that happens, people move on. Sounds like you're in the same boat as Draper here "did the place fall apart without me?" No, it kept on going, and we got those endings.

Right, the show had some direction when it was centered around Don. The story got muddled when Wiener didn't know to do with him and the show began to suffer. Would anyone deny that the show dropped in quality over time?

What separate stories are you talking about? I just saw pointless endings.

Probably 75% of the show has had nothing to do with Don. Every main character had an entire life outside of Don and tons of storylines unrelated to Don at all. Saying you would only have been happy with the ending if you got to see all those characters interact with Don more the final season is kind of going against the whole point of the show. It's a snapshot in time, of the lives of many characters. Draper is one, but we've been following stories that had nothing to do with Draper, that he didn't have knowledge of, since the pilot episode.

I think it would have been MUCH more conveniently tidy and corny if we got what you wanted--an entire final season of Don having final scenes with the entire cast, final instances of our favorite things (Don's pitches), etc. That's not how life works. It was tidy enough that so many of these characters still were in each other's lives after almost ten years, but it's a TV show.

You're complaining that everything was too tidy, they tied up too many loose ends too perfectly...but you wanted the most cliche, tidy ending of all.

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the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don.

That's your opinion. I'd say Peggy is one of the only main characters I can think of who had her best moments interacting with Don. Most of these characters had an entire life outside of Don, that he only knew a bit about. If you were ONLY interested in their interactions with Draper, that's on you. The show started as revolving completely around Don, but it grew into many separate stories that deserved their own endings, separate from Don. He was going through a transformative period in the final season, and took off. When that happens, people move on. Sounds like you're in the same boat as Draper here "did the place fall apart without me?" No, it kept on going, and we got those endings.

Right, the show had some direction when it was centered around Don. The story got muddled when Wiener didn't know to do with him and the show began to suffer. Would anyone deny that the show dropped in quality over time?

What separate stories are you talking about? I just saw pointless endings.

Probably 75% of the show has had nothing to do with Don. Every main character had an entire life outside of Don and tons of storylines unrelated to Don at all. Saying you would only have been happy with the ending if you got to see all those characters interact with Don more the final season is kind of going against the whole point of the show. It's a snapshot in time, of the lives of many characters. Draper is one, but we've been following stories that had nothing to do with Draper, that he didn't have knowledge of, since the pilot episode.

I think it would have been MUCH more conveniently tidy and corny if we got what you wanted--an entire final season of Don having final scenes with the entire cast, final instances of our favorite things (Don's pitches), etc. That's not how life works. It was tidy enough that so many of these characters still were in each other's lives after almost ten years, but it's a TV show.

You're complaining that everything was too tidy, they tied up too many loose ends too perfectly...but you wanted the most cliche, tidy ending of all.

75% of the show has had nothing to do with Don? :lmao:

Whatever, I'm glad you enjoyed Peggy finding a husband.

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the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don.

That's your opinion. I'd say Peggy is one of the only main characters I can think of who had her best moments interacting with Don. Most of these characters had an entire life outside of Don, that he only knew a bit about. If you were ONLY interested in their interactions with Draper, that's on you. The show started as revolving completely around Don, but it grew into many separate stories that deserved their own endings, separate from Don. He was going through a transformative period in the final season, and took off. When that happens, people move on. Sounds like you're in the same boat as Draper here "did the place fall apart without me?" No, it kept on going, and we got those endings.

Right, the show had some direction when it was centered around Don. The story got muddled when Wiener didn't know to do with him and the show began to suffer. Would anyone deny that the show dropped in quality over time?

What separate stories are you talking about? I just saw pointless endings.

Probably 75% of the show has had nothing to do with Don. Every main character had an entire life outside of Don and tons of storylines unrelated to Don at all. Saying you would only have been happy with the ending if you got to see all those characters interact with Don more the final season is kind of going against the whole point of the show. It's a snapshot in time, of the lives of many characters. Draper is one, but we've been following stories that had nothing to do with Draper, that he didn't have knowledge of, since the pilot episode.

I think it would have been MUCH more conveniently tidy and corny if we got what you wanted--an entire final season of Don having final scenes with the entire cast, final instances of our favorite things (Don's pitches), etc. That's not how life works. It was tidy enough that so many of these characters still were in each other's lives after almost ten years, but it's a TV show.

You're complaining that everything was too tidy, they tied up too many loose ends too perfectly...but you wanted the most cliche, tidy ending of all.

75% of the show has had nothing to do with Don? :lmao:

Whatever, I'm glad you enjoyed Peggy finding a husband.

Did we watch the same show? It's amazing to me that you could watch 92 episodes worth of these characters' lives and come away thinking that their biggest contributions were their individual connections to Draper, that the worth of their storylines was directly related to their time onscreen with Don. Don was one flawed character among many, and the main character that we saw the most of. But this was a show with probably over a dozen fleshed out characters who deserved some type of ending, not just a "final scenes with Don" slideshow to wrap it all up in a nice little bow.

Wiener chose to make Don's path of enlightenment be away from the rest of the cast. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with that choice. But for you to act like the worth of the other characters is tied directly to their involvement with Draper is weird, after everything we've all watched, since the majority of every character's screen time has been without Don.

You didn't address what I said about how you would have like to see it end--don't you think that would have been the ultimate "tie up all loose ends" tidy ending?

Edited by ConnSKINS26
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I didn't address it because I really don't care to argue with someone who seems to be way too emotionally invested in a TV show. I'm glad you liked it. I didn't. There's really nothing else to say.

Really? We disagree, so I'm too emotionally invested? Got it.

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Peggy: Wildcat or just lays there?

In one episode, way back, she took some random dude back to her apartment . IIRC he didn't have a condom. Peggy said something like "we can do other things". I always took that to mean butt stuff.

Pretty sure that's mouth hugs.

WHY DO YOU INSIST ON CRUSHING MY DREAMS?

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I haven't seen it mentioned, but when they were in the circle and Leonard was talking...Don was listening; but Weiner made it a point for Don to "react" when he heard Leonard say "It's like nobody even knows your gone"

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I see what you're saying but the fact this happened through phone calls in the last episode of the whole series made it feel cheap.

I don't have a problem with killing Betty as an idea but it just seemed tacked on like everything else this season. If you want to kill Betty, why not do it at the beginning of the season and let it actually drive some action in the story.

The funny thing is that when some of us complained that they were wasting time early in the season, people defending the show said that it wasn't the type of show that needed all ends tied. Well, they actually ended up tying neat little bows around EVERYTHING. But the problem was there was no momentum for any of it really. #### just happened and then it was the end.

Totally disagree with this. There was no neat little bow on Peggy, Joan, Roger, Sally, etc. The finale just showed them starting to take the next step in their lives...who knows where any of it ends up. Don returns to advertising, hardly a neat little bow. To me, a neat little bow would be text on the screen..."In 1980, Peggy Olson became the first female...she and Stan now have 4 kids and live in...." and so on.

I really don't know how else he could have done it. If it had just been another day at the office, people would be griping that "nothing happened"..."we need closure!"

The next step in their lives is not tying a loose end? Unless they were to all be killed in a plane crash, what else is there?

What could have happened was a setup and pay off to the final season. Not just a collections of happily ever afters that mostly came out of the blue.

ETA: What the main problem for me was Don's story. He's the main focus of the show and the other characters arches only really matter in how it relates to Don. For the most part, Don was just gone or dealing characters that he had no history or future with (the waitress for an example). So Don's story was aimless and the rest of the characters really had nothing to do but find their happy ending. It sucked.

I think you're in the minority on what your expectations were on how to end the show...and that's fine. Sorry, it didn't work for you.

I do agree with whoever said you are arguing it was too tidy...yet you seem to have wanted it to be a little more tidy.

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Weiner talks about the main characters in the finale. Says "We leave everyone slightly improved."

http://www.amc.com/shows/mad-men/video-extras/season-07/episode-14/inside-episode-714-mad-men-person-to-person

Except for that cancer eating away at Betty.

Well, there is that. Interesting touch that she was still smoking at the end. Going on her terms.

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I haven't seen it mentioned, but when they were in the circle and Leonard was talking...Don was listening; but Weiner made it a point for Don to "react" when he heard Leonard say "It's like nobody even knows your gone"

There also was a part of that monologue where the guy said maybe those people are shoeing that they love him, but that he couldn't recignize or see it or something. I think that triggered Don as well. All these people did care about him: Betty, Sally, his sons, Peggy, Roger, even his brother. Don just had to learn to accept love and stop looking for whatever he's been searching for.
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I haven't seen it mentioned, but when they were in the circle and Leonard was talking...Don was listening; but Weiner made it a point for Don to "react" when he heard Leonard say "It's like nobody even knows your gone"

There also was a part of that monologue where the guy said maybe those people are shoeing that they love him, but that he couldn't recignize or see it or something. I think that triggered Don as well. All these people did care about him: Betty, Sally, his sons, Peggy, Roger, even his brother. Don just had to learn to accept love and stop looking for whatever he's been searching for.

Peggy tried to get that message through to him too when she said (paraphrasing) "What have you done that's so bad?" Of course Don rattles off all his sins but the point is that there were people in his life who did care about him and didn't think he was the horrible person he clearly believed himself to be. And Roger's last words to him were (paraphrasing again) "You're OK." Weiner clearly was setting something in motion for Don to ultimately come to peace with himself at the end.

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I haven't seen it mentioned, but when they were in the circle and Leonard was talking...Don was listening; but Weiner made it a point for Don to "react" when he heard Leonard say "It's like nobody even knows your gone"

There also was a part of that monologue where the guy said maybe those people are shoeing that they love him, but that he couldn't recignize or see it or something. I think that triggered Don as well. All these people did care about him: Betty, Sally, his sons, Peggy, Roger, even his brother. Don just had to learn to accept love and stop looking for whatever he's been searching for.

Peggy tried to get that message through to him too when she said (paraphrasing) "What have you done that's so bad?" Of course Don rattles off all his sins but the point is that there were people in his life who did care about him and didn't think he was the horrible person he clearly believed himself to be. And Roger's last words to him were (paraphrasing again) "You're OK." Weiner clearly was setting something in motion for Don to ultimately come to peace with himself at the end.

I apologize for that horrifically spelled post.

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A couple of additions that I didn't see in the Sepinwall article about last night:

--It was a big deal on the set to finally put Draper in jeans for the Leonard scene. Weiner said he was out of uniform. In talking about filming that scene, he noted what commanding on-screen presence Hamm has. " If he was in the scene and there was a fire, people would say 'What fire'?"

--His casting note for Leonard was an unknown who could cry. Evan Arnold was the 1st to read for the part.

-- Biggest argument of the season was over Weiner wanting Pete's and Betty's stories to also be told in the finale. Semi Chellas ultimately convinced him that would be a rushed mess and he would have to deal with people knowing some of the ending the week before.

--I thought he said he knew very early on that Betty would die young. What he decided at the time after the contract renegotiations was that it would be held for the finale since he had a known date for ending. (In re-reading, Sepinwall may be saying same, but his seems ambiguous on whether the renegotiations were when he decided she'd die or when he decided she'd die in the finale)

Edited by Mystery Achiever
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A couple of additions that I didn't see in the Sepinwall article about last night:

--It was a big deal on the set to finally put Draper in jeans for the Leonard scene. Weiner said he was out of uniform. In talking about filming that scene, he noted what commanding on-screen presence Hamm has. " If he was in the scene and there was a fire, people would say 'What fire'?"

--His casting note for Leonard was an unknown who could cry. Evan Arnold was the 1st to read for the part.

-- Biggest argument of the season was over Weiner wanting Pete's and Betty's stories to also be told in the finale. Semi Chellas ultimately convinced him that would be a rushed mess and he would have to deal with people knowing some of the ending the week before.

--I thought he said he knew very early on that Betty would die young. What he decided at the time after the contract renegotiations was that it would be held for the finale since he had a known date for ending. (In re-reading, Sepinwall may be saying same, but his seems ambiguous on whether the renegotiations were when he decided she'd die or when he decided she'd die in the finale)

What is your source for these?

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I watched most of the livestream. It did cut out a couple of times.

It is available for replay.

http://www.nypl.org/events/programs/2015/05/20/matthew-weiner

And Sepinwall was right. People on the accompanying chat were pretty disappointed at the broad focus of the interview. Weiner was prone to pontification and free association and the interviewer did not try to redirect or focus him.

Edited by Mystery Achiever
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I watched most of the livestream. It did cut out a couple of times.

It is available for replay.

http://www.nypl.org/events/programs/2015/05/20/matthew-weiner

And Sepinwall was right. People on the accompanying chat were pretty disappointed at the broad focus of the interview. Weiner was prone to pontification and free association and the interviewer did not try to redirect or focus him.

Thanks for the link.

Holmes strikes me as a bit of a sycophant.

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Holmes strikes me as a bit of a sycophant.

From the chat:

if we were to drink every time the interviewer said "right" we'd be jonestown black out drunk "right right right" about 18 hours ago

Or giggled about 18 hours ago

she's too scared to interrupt him about 18 hours ago

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A couple of additions that I didn't see in the Sepinwall article about last night:

--It was a big deal on the set to finally put Draper in jeans for the Leonard scene. Weiner said he was out of uniform. In talking about filming that scene, he noted what commanding on-screen presence Hamm has. " If he was in the scene and there was a fire, people would say 'What fire'?"

--His casting note for Leonard was an unknown who could cry. Evan Arnold was the 1st to read for the part.

-- Biggest argument of the season was over Weiner wanting Pete's and Betty's stories to also be told in the finale. Semi Chellas ultimately convinced him that would be a rushed mess and he would have to deal with people knowing some of the ending the week before.

--I thought he said he knew very early on that Betty would die young. What he decided at the time after the contract renegotiations was that it would be held for the finale since he had a known date for ending. (In re-reading, Sepinwall may be saying same, but his seems ambiguous on whether the renegotiations were when he decided she'd die or when he decided she'd die in the finale)

Wasn't he in jeans in the opening scene too racing the cars?

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A couple of additions that I didn't see in the Sepinwall article about last night:

--It was a big deal on the set to finally put Draper in jeans for the Leonard scene. Weiner said he was out of uniform. In talking about filming that scene, he noted what commanding on-screen presence Hamm has. " If he was in the scene and there was a fire, people would say 'What fire'?"

--His casting note for Leonard was an unknown who could cry. Evan Arnold was the 1st to read for the part.

-- Biggest argument of the season was over Weiner wanting Pete's and Betty's stories to also be told in the finale. Semi Chellas ultimately convinced him that would be a rushed mess and he would have to deal with people knowing some of the ending the week before.

--I thought he said he knew very early on that Betty would die young. What he decided at the time after the contract renegotiations was that it would be held for the finale since he had a known date for ending. (In re-reading, Sepinwall may be saying same, but his seems ambiguous on whether the renegotiations were when he decided she'd die or when he decided she'd die in the finale)

Wasn't he in jeans in the opening scene too racing the cars?

Yes, and a denim jacket.

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