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Sepinwall's blog worth reading today just for this:

"'the pain from an old wound'...a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone...it takes us to a place where we ache to go again...to a place where we know we were loved"

Hard for me to remember a better TV moment than that.

Best. Scene. Ever.
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Sepinwall's blog worth reading today just for this:

"'the pain from an old wound'...a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone...it takes us to a place where we ache to go again...to a place where we know we were loved"

Hard for me to remember a better TV moment than that.

HTH
B-

For full credit, you should have linked to Junior singing after Jackie Jr died to conclude season 3.

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The season is really hitting stride.

This can't end well for Don. Roger feels like he created him and probably feels that he can take him out. Ted Chaough is gunning for him. Don's drinking is slipping him up. I have a feeling his past life "secret" will be used to try to take him down again. He's in an awful spot.

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The season is really hitting stride. This can't end well for Don. Roger feels like he created him and probably feels that he can take him out. Ted Chaough is gunning for him. Don's drinking is slipping him up. I have a feeling his past life "secret" will be used to try to take him down again. He's in an awful spot.

No one on the show is happy right now. Lots of showdowns coming.
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Excellent episode. This season is shaping up to be one of the finest seasons of TV we've ever seen.

With Don's drunken, rambling pitch, his alcoholism is starting to affect his performance in a way we've never seen before. I'd say that while Don's been in crisis for a long time now, it's clearly about to blow up in his face.

Peggy continues to impress. I wasn't a fan of mousy, weird Peggy. But strong, confident Peggy is a joy to watch.

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Sepinwall's blog worth reading today just for this:

"'the pain from an old wound'...a twinge in your heart far more powerful than memory alone...it takes us to a place where we ache to go again...to a place where we know we were loved"

Hard for me to remember a better TV moment than that.

HTH
B-

For full credit, you should have linked to Junior singing after Jackie Jr died to conclude season 3.

How about this...

:moneybag::lmao:

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Danny looks like he's about 4'10". :D

:P I was cracking up at the fact that he's way shorter than Peggy.
Exactly. Then at the end standing next to Don I almost lost it. He looked like a little elf and then Peggy made him stay back like a little dog when she went into the conference room.
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Danny looks like he's about 4'10". :lmao:

:goodposting: I was cracking up at the fact that he's way shorter than Peggy.
Exactly. Then at the end standing next to Don I almost lost it. He looked like a little elf and then Peggy made him stay back like a little dog when she went into the conference room.
The cure for the common midget.
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I didn't know who this guy was but his resume is impressive. Recount was a great film so big ups to the little guy for writing/producing that film.
I'm a little surprised that Danny Strong returned to acting. I know he has another script in development. Obviously, I have a lot of affection for him as a Buffy fan, but it was still jarring to see him in Mad Men. He's almost always comic relief.
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Is there a chance the writers phased January Jones ( :shark: ) out of the storyline because they realize she's an atrocious actress?

She is a pretty horrible actress. I can honestly say I have never felt so much sympathy for a female TV character than Peggy Olson. She's meant to be the "ugly" character and she never gets cut any breaks. Not one. You see Betty Draper and the pretty secretaries get cut slack all the time but Peggy gets absolutely nothing. She has to break her back and bleed for everything she has. If you think about it, she's one of the few women who have made an advance on Don and he refused it. She has to settle for being Pete "The Rapist" Campbell's drunk one night stand or Duck's ego boost or the temptation of a priest. The only one in the office who really wanted her was the strange hippie bearded loser. Her mother is cruel and thoughtless and who knows what her father did or did not do for her. Betty Draper would probably be a bit more grateful if she had to spend three months living like Peggy. ( Does Betty have anything to really offer but her looks?) I think Peggy would have a better understanding of what's important if she spent three months living like Betty ( It's not all its cracked up to be) I'm not sure there is actually one morally redeeming character on this show ( I thought it was Cosgrove for a while but am not sure at this point) This is one of the few shows that I feel portrays women honestly ( Narcissists, money grubbers, insecure, ungrateful, entitled, ruthless, etc) I'm surprised Matthew Weiner gets to show as much as he does. I don't know if hes picking great actors or if he just picks people who behave like their characters and let them run with it. It's tragic that Elizabeth Moss doesn't have an Emmy for this show. When you consider how other actresses could probably do so much less and give so much less in that role, it's pretty startling. Other than Don, she's the only other true three dimensional character on the show. I'm not sure why Kartheiser gets so many kudos for his role, how hard is it to play a worthless POS on TV?
:P I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?
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Is there a chance the writers phased January Jones ( :mellow: ) out of the storyline because they realize she's an atrocious actress?

She is a pretty horrible actress. I can honestly say I have never felt so much sympathy for a female TV character than Peggy Olson. She's meant to be the "ugly" character and she never gets cut any breaks. Not one. You see Betty Draper and the pretty secretaries get cut slack all the time but Peggy gets absolutely nothing. She has to break her back and bleed for everything she has. If you think about it, she's one of the few women who have made an advance on Don and he refused it. She has to settle for being Pete "The Rapist" Campbell's drunk one night stand or Duck's ego boost or the temptation of a priest. The only one in the office who really wanted her was the strange hippie bearded loser. Her mother is cruel and thoughtless and who knows what her father did or did not do for her. Betty Draper would probably be a bit more grateful if she had to spend three months living like Peggy. ( Does Betty have anything to really offer but her looks?) I think Peggy would have a better understanding of what's important if she spent three months living like Betty ( It's not all its cracked up to be) I'm not sure there is actually one morally redeeming character on this show ( I thought it was Cosgrove for a while but am not sure at this point) This is one of the few shows that I feel portrays women honestly ( Narcissists, money grubbers, insecure, ungrateful, entitled, ruthless, etc) I'm surprised Matthew Weiner gets to show as much as he does. I don't know if hes picking great actors or if he just picks people who behave like their characters and let them run with it. It's tragic that Elizabeth Moss doesn't have an Emmy for this show. When you consider how other actresses could probably do so much less and give so much less in that role, it's pretty startling. Other than Don, she's the only other true three dimensional character on the show. I'm not sure why Kartheiser gets so many kudos for his role, how hard is it to play a worthless POS on TV?
:confused: I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?
would be an interesting way to end the series but probably too close to Six Feet Under for my taste
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Is there a chance the writers phased January Jones ( :lmao: ) out of the storyline because they realize she's an atrocious actress?

She is a pretty horrible actress. I can honestly say I have never felt so much sympathy for a female TV character than Peggy Olson. She's meant to be the "ugly" character and she never gets cut any breaks. Not one. You see Betty Draper and the pretty secretaries get cut slack all the time but Peggy gets absolutely nothing. She has to break her back and bleed for everything she has. If you think about it, she's one of the few women who have made an advance on Don and he refused it. She has to settle for being Pete "The Rapist" Campbell's drunk one night stand or Duck's ego boost or the temptation of a priest. The only one in the office who really wanted her was the strange hippie bearded loser. Her mother is cruel and thoughtless and who knows what her father did or did not do for her. Betty Draper would probably be a bit more grateful if she had to spend three months living like Peggy. ( Does Betty have anything to really offer but her looks?) I think Peggy would have a better understanding of what's important if she spent three months living like Betty ( It's not all its cracked up to be) I'm not sure there is actually one morally redeeming character on this show ( I thought it was Cosgrove for a while but am not sure at this point) This is one of the few shows that I feel portrays women honestly ( Narcissists, money grubbers, insecure, ungrateful, entitled, ruthless, etc) I'm surprised Matthew Weiner gets to show as much as he does. I don't know if hes picking great actors or if he just picks people who behave like their characters and let them run with it. It's tragic that Elizabeth Moss doesn't have an Emmy for this show. When you consider how other actresses could probably do so much less and give so much less in that role, it's pretty startling. Other than Don, she's the only other true three dimensional character on the show. I'm not sure why Kartheiser gets so many kudos for his role, how hard is it to play a worthless POS on TV?
:yucky: I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?
would be an interesting way to end the series but probably too close to Six Feet Under for my taste
I wouldn't even need to think you would have to flash forward to accomplish this. Just spitballing here....but for example, let's say the firm is bidding for work with some progressive client who happens to have a female executive. The exec happens to like the copy that Peggy has written.....the exec tells Draper that to keep the business with the firm, she needs to let Peggy handle the account. Draper's ego gets the best of him and tells the possible client to piss off. Peggy starts her own company and is successful, while Draper continues to womanize and think of "what it used to be like":lmao:
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Is there a chance the writers phased January Jones ( :lmao: ) out of the storyline because they realize she's an atrocious actress?

She is a pretty horrible actress. I can honestly say I have never felt so much sympathy for a female TV character than Peggy Olson. She's meant to be the "ugly" character and she never gets cut any breaks. Not one. You see Betty Draper and the pretty secretaries get cut slack all the time but Peggy gets absolutely nothing. She has to break her back and bleed for everything she has. If you think about it, she's one of the few women who have made an advance on Don and he refused it. She has to settle for being Pete "The Rapist" Campbell's drunk one night stand or Duck's ego boost or the temptation of a priest. The only one in the office who really wanted her was the strange hippie bearded loser. Her mother is cruel and thoughtless and who knows what her father did or did not do for her. Betty Draper would probably be a bit more grateful if she had to spend three months living like Peggy. ( Does Betty have anything to really offer but her looks?) I think Peggy would have a better understanding of what's important if she spent three months living like Betty ( It's not all its cracked up to be) I'm not sure there is actually one morally redeeming character on this show ( I thought it was Cosgrove for a while but am not sure at this point) This is one of the few shows that I feel portrays women honestly ( Narcissists, money grubbers, insecure, ungrateful, entitled, ruthless, etc) I'm surprised Matthew Weiner gets to show as much as he does. I don't know if hes picking great actors or if he just picks people who behave like their characters and let them run with it. It's tragic that Elizabeth Moss doesn't have an Emmy for this show. When you consider how other actresses could probably do so much less and give so much less in that role, it's pretty startling. Other than Don, she's the only other true three dimensional character on the show. I'm not sure why Kartheiser gets so many kudos for his role, how hard is it to play a worthless POS on TV?
:lmao: I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?
would be an interesting way to end the series but probably too close to Six Feet Under for my taste
I wouldn't even need to think you would have to flash forward to accomplish this. Just spitballing here....but for example, let's say the firm is bidding for work with some progressive client who happens to have a female executive. The exec happens to like the copy that Peggy has written.....the exec tells Draper that to keep the business with the firm, she needs to let Peggy handle the account. Draper's ego gets the best of him and tells the possible client to piss off. Peggy starts her own company and is successful, while Draper continues to womanize and think of "what it used to be like":lmao:
If Kate and Hurley are involved, I'm cool with it.
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I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?

I don't think anyone can be like Roger Sterling. He inherited his position in the company. He clearly knows very little ( and cares very little) about advertising, what he does know is how rich people behave and what are the worst qualities in them. He resents that he's not needed but does at least understand that he simply doesn't have the raw gift for advertising. He represents a different era, where legacy mattered more than merit, but that has changed. The Don Draper and Peggy Olson relationship is pretty interesting. What he admires in her is that she sees things simply for what they are, without her own prejudices or fears or insecurities. Peggy can see what is plain and raw about people because she has no choice in life. No one will give her anything. She's always been the "ugly" one. She brought a man ( really a boy) to the Xmas party that everyone else would heckle because it's the best she can do. When people have no use for you or give you nothing, you see the truth. You can do nothing for them so they don't hold back. Peggy knows her mother would treat her better if she was prettier. She could get married and have a life like Betty if she was prettier or thinner. Peggy is tragic because despite all her social limitations, she does give it everything she has. What choice does she has? And the culture she works in and the society she lives in says none of it is good enough simply because she is ugly. There are thousands of "Peggy Olson Lites" in law schools around the country now, ugly women who have overachieved in their careers or education because they wanted to be noticed for something other than their beauty, mostly because they lacked it. Though Peggy is rare in that unlike most women in her situation, she's doesn't lie to herself about it. She can say, "People don't like this kind of person and I'm that kind of person" Most people would say, "People don't like this kind of person because they don't really know whats good for them or see me for who I am" Anyone can make no excuses for other people, she makes no excuses for herself. Freddy Rumsen could only see that she was "different" but didn't understand why, what Don Draper respects is that she is the only person he works with that isn't trying to pretend to be someone else ( of which he is the king) He envies that a little because he could never feel safe being what Peggy is and what Peggy does. What Peggy Olson sees in Don Draper is probably the allure of the approval of whatever situation her father did or did not play in her life. She can see that something is "off" about Don. That there's a certain truth not being told. But she admires his complete ability to be someone else at work. These are the failings of the other people at their work. They want to be someone else, project something different, but their own flaws and their own issues get in the way of them becoming that other person. Peggy understands it's not what you are, it's what people see. Since Don has to live that kind of life, one that matters about perception over truth, advertising is easy for him. How does he fool people all day? He thinks about it and uses that to fool the masses with his advertising. All Don Draper does is show people what they want to see. And then they believe him and then they follow him. It's all a game to him and that's why he spirals out of control. It's one thing if his own life is a lie, it's another when you realize that everything around you is a lie. All except, of course, Peggy, which is why he tells her, "I would spend the rest of my life trying to hire you" Peggy really wants to be someone else, she wants Don Drapers life because she believes finally it means someone accepts her for her. She wants his approval because it means she believes it will guarantee everyone's approval. Don and Peggy are classic codependents, both abusers and abused, and they perpetuate that best with each other. Peggy wants Don to abuse her, treat her poorly, she takes it for so long because deep down, it means she matters. It means more than what she has had before, which was be invisible to people. Don treats her poorly at times because he sees his own true reality reflected in her, and it bothers him, but he wants it to bother him deep down, he just can't accept the lie and live with it because he feels nothing, the only feeling he gets is pain. He goads Peggy because he wants her to lash out, to fight back, because he knows she will. Betty Draper exists in one dimension, to highlight a different shade of unhappiness, one of ignorance. She's not a selfish entitled spoiled worthless whore because she doesn't understand Don, but because she could never ever truly understand Peggy. She doesn't see what she has because she's always had it. She lives in her "perception" of of her own little world, a microcosm of the average person, the masses, who lie to themselves to buy whatever the advertisers tell them to buy. If this show illustrates anything, it's that to be the best at anything, that part of what makes you great at it comes from inside and comes from a sense of loss. That being the best merely is an extension of what already costs you in life. You can't let it go, you can never be redeemed, so you never let your extension of that go, you never find satisfaction. It's what drives you. People at the top don't suddenly become alone, they were always alone. It's a commentary on consumerism, as a magic pill for your pain. That distraction is a salve for your wounds. People consume so they don't have to deal with themselves, deal with their problems, face their demons. That's why no matter what trophy that Roger Sterling gets next, it won't be enough. The rest of Sterling Cooper Draper and Price are "consumed" with the lifestyle of the advertising world but can't differentiate themselves from masses and don't understand the cost, its why they aren't good at it, it's why people like Pete Campbell are so inept at it. Don Draper is merely an advertisement to salve the pain of Dick Whitman. His success is only a byproduct of that. But it's still a lie. Only Peggy Olson deals with truth. She was doomed from the start, she knows it, and she refuses to accept it. She's the cautionary tale of what Dick Whitman would be if Whitman could be an honest man. This is what makes her ultimately the most tragic character on the show.
Sepinwall, is that you? :whistle:
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Gekko, I don't care what people say about you...that was an awesome post. Particularly the last paragraph.

I'll admit I'm not a fan at all. But that post was pretty decent even if I don't agree. I just with the dude wasn't paid by the word.

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Gekko, I don't care what people say about you...that was an awesome post. Particularly the last paragraph.

Agreed. The last paragraph put to words something I hadn't really concluded in a clear way. Well done.No current show provides such fertile ground for analysis. It's become such a meticulous character study. So much subtext, so many backdrops, so many interesting insights sprinkled in. Always entertaining and fun to talk about.
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I would love to see Mad Men do a Flash Forward 20 years to the mid 80's. Would Peggy be who Don is now and Don what Roger is?

Is there any doubt that the last episode of the series will show Don in the current day?Don as an 85-90 year old, looking back. It is inevitable. The scene writes itself.
Don would be lucky to live to see 70.
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Every episode this season gets stronger than the last.

I hate to admit this but my favorite book is "East of Eden" by John Steinbeck and that's the reason I love this show so much. It's all about the characters. We don't need a huge event to take place to feel satisfied after an episode as long as we get a little deeper into the characters. It's very similar to the way Steinbeck developed characters in his writing and the reason the show has me hooked so much.

One of my favorite episodes.

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Peggy is fantastic, this might have been the best show of the season...no the series..

Draper's character has become so pathetic that he's become sympathetic, Peggy's character has gone from sympathetic to self-confident but can't lose her human touch. She is the only one whose true feelings are displayed week-in week-out.

The last scene with leaving the door open was nice symbolism although I honestly don't see them going back to Peggy/Don for a while..

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NY Mag:

Last week, Don's downward spiral into alcoholism seemed hopeless. There was just no way you could imagine that he would suddenly decide to enroll in AA, go cold turkey, or disappear to some rehab center. It seemed as if he might be forever fershnickered. And Peggy's fate seemed just as ominous: She was getting so little respect there seemed no way for her to continue on at SCDP. Both seemed trapped. Last week, there seemed to be no way out. But this week, a mouse somehow wriggles its way into the airtight, glass-and-steel box offices of SCDP. "You know what? There's a way out of this room we don't know about," says Don. As it turns out, he might be right.

The episode was essentially a history-changing two-hander: Peggy vs. Don in the main bout, with Cassius Clay vs. Sonny Liston and a few other supporting characters on the undercard. Only in this episode would the bracingly frank racism—"You're such a Jew" and "If I wanted to see two Negroes fight, I'd throw a dollar bill out my window"—seem like small potatoes. Only in this show, would it seem barely notable that Bert Cooper's secretary, Ida Blankenship, was revealed to be the "Queen of Perversions" or that Bert himself was balls-less (turns out Matt Weiner wasn't taunting his fans with that "Lyle Evans" namedrop a few episodes ago, he was setting up one hell of a joke). Only in this episode could the tenth-most interesting scene be the one in which Duck nearly shat on Roger's pristine white space chair before striking some Jean-Claude Van Damme I've-killed-seventeen-men pose. Has slurring, silly Roger really lost it? Did Liston take a dive for the Mafia? Who cares? Onto the main bout!

The refs debated the rules-bending outcome of Liston-Ali for three hours. We'll be talking about Olson-Draper for much longer. Peggy warms up for the fight by being disgusted by Duck, who delusionally (if not cruelly) offers her a partnership in a firm that will never be. Don and Peggy's actual fight begins over the suitcase account, but Don ends it quickly with one hell of a knockout blow, a rant as violent as anything written by David "Everyone needs money. That's why they call it money" Mamet:

Peggy: "But you got the Clio!"

Don: "It's your job: I give you money, you give me ideas!"

Peggy: "And you never say thank you."

Don: "That's what the money is for!"

Peggy reels from the haymaker: a cruel line about how Peggy should wake up every morning thanking both Don and Jesus. Don instantly regrets it. Their rapprochement is halting. Twice in the episode, Peggy is about to leave the office when she makes the conscious choice to stay, knowing that she'd prefer to stay in the ring. Don is a wreck and Peggy is distracted—they don't come up with any brilliant ideas. But Don and Peggy both open up about their lives: dead dads and Korea, office rumors and Peggy's dweeby ex-fiance. Then the dams just seem to break when Don talks about how he loves the way you "keep banging your head against the wall and then it happens." Peggy admits that her personal life, "doesn't feel right or as important as anything in that office."

It's not the most elegant courtship: Don drinks until he throws up and then falls asleep on Peggy's lap in a vomit-stained shirt. It's messy (vomit), sad (Peggy's break-up), contentious (those fights over the campaign), and just plain ####ed-up (Duck), but, for these two, that feels about right. Peggy has risen so high, and Don has fallen so far, that maybe they're now meeting in the messy middle. After all they do have so much in common: They're both discrete, kinky, witty, smart, unsentimental, and often ruthlessly critical. They know each other's secrets, and they both obsessively love the same thing: work. Don has just lost the last semblance of family and can't figure out his private life; Peggy hates her family and her private life. They're both messes. You wanna judge? Don asks. Of course Peggy doesn't and can't.

At first, it seemed like Don is being painted into the old-fogie corner yet again: Peggy pitches Joe Namath--who is soon to become one of the most potent pantyhose-hawking celebrity endorsers in history—and Don foolishly rejects him. But Don—unlike Peggy, but like the advertising genius George Lois—recognizes that the Ali photo is history in the making (The photo—cover of the sports illustrated special issue 'the century's greatest sports photos'—). But advertising is messy too--bad campaigns are copied as often as good campaigns. Clients often prefer the dumb ideas to the smart ones. The two lines that matter most come when Don, tears streaming, tells Peggy that he's lost "the only person in the world who really knew [him]." She replies, "That's not true." When the angelic ghost of Anna appears in Don's office, she appears to be giving the new couple her blessing.

But the real moment of affection isn't the consolation over Anna's death. It's the collaboration on the new compaign. "Why are you ####ting on this?" Don asks, when Peggy rejects the Sonny-Liston ad. "It's good, it's very good," she says. But does she mean it? Or is Peggy, like Liston, just taking a fall and letting her opponent win? The result is that Don holds her hand. If she is taking a fall to spare his feelings, is it setting up a dynamic that could ruin their relationship before it starts? If it starts? Is Don, so shaken by Anna's death, just desperate to give his life some meaning before he packs his suitcase and heads off into the ether?

Fans keep fantasizing that someday Don and Peggy are going to have that some well-rounded life that's just eluded them thus far. But neither has had any success building anything outside of the office. So, are they going to fall for each other because they truly love one another? Or because they are two workaholics who can't imagine a healthy life outside? It's dangerous to fall for someone because you hope they can save you, particularly if they enable your addiction (though workaholism is much better than alcoholism). Will the relationship, if there is one, become even more of a trap for Peggy?

There are too many differences to count, from age to experience to incapacitating drunkenness and preference for prostitutes. Can Peggy and Don be happy together? If they are together, what about the Moonlighting effect? Will it kill the tension? What will happen if to the show if Don stops sleeping around? Or how will fans feel about Don sleeping around on Peggy? Can this work? What about Betty? And if Don and Peggy are just clinging to each other because neither has anyone else, could it end horribly, and soon? Or will nothing come of it. Will Don and Peggy decide, as they have so many other times that this never happened?

Baltimore Sun:

I am not yet sure whether or not this was a great episode tonight, but I'll tell you this: It made me care about Peggy like I haven't since season one. It also made me even ache a little for Don -- and that's saying something after the indifference I was feeling toward him and his self-pitying descent.

And in a story telling sense, you have to love the way the hour left us wondering about Peggy and Don. After hearing of the death of Anna Draper, he says that the only person in the world who "really knew" him just died, and Peggy says, "that's not true" -- presumably about no one else really knowing him. And then near the end of the episode, he places his hand over hers on the desk. Is this possible -- the two of them together?

OK, as I tired as I am, I don't have to sleep on it this week. I can make the call: It was a great episode. The different shades of masculinity that were explored in just one hour is mind boggling -- and we see almost all of it through Peggy's eyes.

Don on his knees retching in the stall of a men's room. Duck dropping his pants and trying to defecate in Don's office as an insult -- only he's drunk and in the wrong office. Don and Duck, both drunk, fighting with Duck pinning Don on the floor. Peggy's boyfriend sitting in that restaurant with her wretched family trying to order Peggy out of the office and into the surprise party he imagined for her. That crew of adolescent fools she works with waking her up with a coach's whistle and giving her a mock order to do push ups.

And I have to say the death of Anna even though it was totally off camera was somehow very moving. Yes, great episode, and there were a lot of great lines. Oh lord, the scene between Don and Peggy in which their real feelings come out about the Clio Award. Peggy's line about knwoing what she is "supposed to want," but none of it measuring up to her work.

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