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Obviously, they didn't show her having the procedure. So it's ambiguous.

Well, I think this makes it more than just ambiguous, it makes it more likely than not that it didn't happen. On a show obsessed with historical details it seems likely to me that they would have shown what a pre-Roe abortion procedure was like (this is where my wife thought the scene was going). And Joan certainly conveyed misgivings about going through with it, first with Roger in the coffee shop and then in the waiting room where the woman assumed Joan had a daughter. It also was convenient that neither Roger nor anyone else from the show was present to witness what did or didn't happen. It just seems to me that the whole thing would have been written in a different way if she had actually had the abortion.
:goodposting: Doctors didn't actually use coat hangers in alleys before Roe.
Whether or not they actually used coat hangers, they weren't always performed by reputable physicians under the best situations. It's admittedly hard to find unbiased information about exactly how dangerous such abortions were.
You saw the waiting room. Exactly what were you expecting to see in the doctor's office that would be so much different than today?
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I think you are really going out on a limb here on your assumptions. The most likely thing is that she went through with the abortion, not the other way around. It doesn't seem that likely that they would have showed the procedure either so if that's how you are arriving at your conclusion, I think it's flawed.

I'm not saying that they would have zoomed in on Joan's gigantic 1960s red bush while the doctor poked around in there, but they could have showed her actually going into the room, or in a bed after the procedure had been completed, or something. They didn't do anything like that. They showed her embarrassment in the waiting room. They they showed her on the bus going home. Then she's at work the next day (?) and Roger asks if she should even be on her feet and she says that it's no big deal and "they avoided a tragedy."Who are you gonna believe, me or Sepinwall?
I hold you both equally in the same regard when it comes to your analysis of the show. Not exactly Grade A.
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I'm not saying it's impossible for Joan to have a 15 year old kid (although I'm not sure how old her character is supposed to be right now so it might be difficult). I'm saying that the scene was clearly intended to convey that Joan was lying because she was ashamed to say that she was there to get the abortion herself.

That's obviously true. But the lie works either way. Either the lie convinces Joan that that this is her last chance (so she doesn't go through with the procedure) or she lies to avoid the embarrassment, knowing full well she's giving up her last chance (and subsequently burying her emotions about it, as Joan is wont to do).If Joan does keep the baby, I think the show cheats a bit in thaat scene. I doubt Joan would keep reading her magazine as opposed to excusing herself from the waiting room.I didn't take the scene to suggest that Joan had her own child, but it is true that in the earlier scene with Joan's OB/Gyn, he referred to two previous "procedures". Not two previous abortions.
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Whether or not they actually used coat hangers, they weren't always performed by reputable physicians under the best situations. It's admittedly hard to find unbiased information about exactly how dangerous such abortions were.

You saw the waiting room. Exactly what were you expecting to see in the doctor's office that would be so much different than today?
:thumbup: Maybe a bean bag chair or something.
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I think you are really going out on a limb here on your assumptions. The most likely thing is that she went through with the abortion, not the other way around. It doesn't seem that likely that they would have showed the procedure either so if that's how you are arriving at your conclusion, I think it's flawed.

I'm not saying that they would have zoomed in on Joan's gigantic 1960s red bush while the doctor poked around in there, but they could have showed her actually going into the room, or in a bed after the procedure had been completed, or something. They didn't do anything like that. They showed her embarrassment in the waiting room. They they showed her on the bus going home. Then she's at work the next day (?) and Roger asks if she should even be on her feet and she says that it's no big deal and "they avoided a tragedy."Who are you gonna believe, me or Sepinwall?
All those things that she said are in line with Joan's character. She doesn't like to appear vulnerable, her shaking off the abortion as no big deal is typical of Joan. It's not surprising the way she acted and I beleve she's officially done with Roger on any emotional level and she is not going to let her guard down to him again. I think she is shutting him out at this point forever.Had he told her, he wanted the kid, that may have been a different story but I think that was his last shot at her.She had to come back into the office and act like everything is cool. Joan is not old fashioned, even though it seems like she has gotten left behind lately. She is a tough girl who always had sort of a cavalier attitude when it comes to sexual things, this is no different.I do give the writers credit for the words she used though because "we prevented a tragedy" could certainly be taken a couple of ways. But while a lot of women would view the tragedy as having an abortion, the more modern Joan sees it the other way (or at the very least wants Roger to believe that's the way she sees it). Edited by Jefferson the Caregiver
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When Brad Hamilton dropped Jennifer Jason Leigh off at the clinic, did we see the abortion? Was there any reason to doubt that it happened?

Mad Men devoted one of it's very best episodes to exploring what it was like to deliver a child in the 1960's. I think fatguy makes a decent point. I don't really know how much the procedure or experience of getting an abortion differed in the 60's, but if it did, I can see how that would have interested Weiner.
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I was confused a little at the end when Don looks down at the tickets and then up at Megan. My first thought was that he was considering letting Megan take Sally to the Beatles concert. No?If he's considering hitting on Megan I certainly can't blame him but he's really got a little too much going on right now to even contemplate doing that doesn't he? What about Faye?

I think Don is beginning to see a certain nurturing quality in Megan that Faye just doesn't have. Also where the #### is Bobby?? I'd be pissed if my sister was getting all the attention.
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Guys....she had the abortion. Come on.Some of you watched too much Lost.

Agree. Mad Men typically doesn't indulge in coy references and inflated dramatics. The Beatles tickets not becoming an issue is a perfect example. Sure, it's possible she didn't go through with it, but I highly doubt that little "clues" are being sprinkled in for viewers to put it together. The clues have to do with themes and subtext, not soap opera twists.
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Guys....she had the abortion. Come on.Some of you watched too much Lost.

Agree. Mad Men typically doesn't indulge in coy references and inflated dramatics. The Beatles tickets not becoming an issue is a perfect example. Sure, it's possible she didn't go through with it, but I highly doubt that little "clues" are being sprinkled in for viewers to put it together. The clues have to do with themes and subtext, not soap opera twists.
I think the "no abortion" theory is quite valid. Joan said to the woman in the doctor's office about the woman's 17 year old daughter, "She's beautiful." Obviously, Joan knows the abortion means no beautiful 17 year old daughter. And Joan doesn't even know if her husband will ever come back. I put it at 60/40 in favor that she kept the baby.
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While I don't think Joan kept the baby does anyone else wonder if the 15 year old daughter she mentioned in the doctor's office might not be made up?

I think it was clearly intended to be made up. P.S. She kept the baby.
;) She very easily could have had a baby in some sort of maternity home 15 years ago. Not totally unrealistic.
Or had one of her previous abortions 15 years ago. But she definitely aborted Roger's baby this time. I thought Sepinwall's writeup was pretty good, regardless of the obviousness of his Beatles comment.
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season. Couple that with the fact that she told the guys that she hopes they go to Vietnam (where presumably they will die).....her husband not coming back has definitely crossed her mind in this decision......even though she said "Greg dying is not a solution"

:stirspot:

Edited by Tiger Fan
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season.

It's gonna be super awesome when I'm right and I can rub it in everyone's faces.
While I am not as certain as you, I too think that she went through with the abortion. Hasn't Weiner does this kind of stuff before (i.e. using ambiguity to lead us to contemplate the most plot twisting dramatic point). Specifically I recall pondering whether Pete Campbell might kill himself. Any other examples?
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season.

It's gonna be super awesome when I'm right and I can rub it in everyone's faces.
While I am not as certain as you, I too think that she went through with the abortion. Hasn't Weiner does this kind of stuff before (i.e. using ambiguity to lead us to contemplate the most plot twisting dramatic point). Specifically I recall pondering whether Pete Campbell might kill himself. Any other examples?
After Peggy had her baby there was some ambiguity as to whether or not she gave it up or it was given to her sister. There was a scene with an infant that some people thought was Peggy's.
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season.

It's gonna be super awesome when I'm right and I can rub it in everyone's faces.
While I am not as certain as you, I too think that she went through with the abortion. Hasn't Weiner does this kind of stuff before (i.e. using ambiguity to lead us to contemplate the most plot twisting dramatic point). Specifically I recall pondering whether Pete Campbell might kill himself. Any other examples?
With the b.b. gun?
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season.

It's gonna be super awesome when I'm right and I can rub it in everyone's faces.
While I am not as certain as you, I too think that she went through with the abortion. Hasn't Weiner does this kind of stuff before (i.e. using ambiguity to lead us to contemplate the most plot twisting dramatic point). Specifically I recall pondering whether Pete Campbell might kill himself. Any other examples?
With the b.b. gun?
Thought it was a .22
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I definitely don't think anyone is out of line for thinking that Joan kept the baby. Her wanting a baby has been a theme this entire season.

It's gonna be super awesome when I'm right and I can rub it in everyone's faces.
While I am not as certain as you, I too think that she went through with the abortion. Hasn't Weiner does this kind of stuff before (i.e. using ambiguity to lead us to contemplate the most plot twisting dramatic point). Specifically I recall pondering whether Pete Campbell might kill himself. Any other examples?
With the b.b. gun?
You're thinking PC LoadLetter
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I wonder if Sal will return at some point. He's not with the new firm, right? Unless I've forgotten an episode, his sexual identity crisis storyline was never really resolved.

Sal can't return as long as the firm is dependent on American Tobacco (unless Lee Garner Jr. dies or something).
:popcorn:
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If I was Roger and American Tobacco really does leave I'd hire a couple of longshoremen to beat the crap out of Lee Garner Jr for punking him at the Xmas party.

Or at least blackmail the guy. Can't tell if threatening to out Lee is something he'd do, but I'd assume so by how he treated the Honda guys.
At this point only Don and Sal know about Garner, right? I don't think Roger knows. Although Roger saying something about lying for Garner could allude to him knowing.
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If I was Roger and American Tobacco really does leave I'd hire a couple of longshoremen to beat the crap out of Lee Garner Jr for punking him at the Xmas party.

Or at least blackmail the guy. Can't tell if threatening to out Lee is something he'd do, but I'd assume so by how he treated the Honda guys.
At this point only Don and Sal know about Garner, right? I don't think Roger knows. Although Roger saying something about lying for Garner could allude to him knowing.
Garner is a shady SOB. I think he may just be doing this to see Roger squirm and bend over backward for him.
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If I was Roger and American Tobacco really does leave I'd hire a couple of longshoremen to beat the crap out of Lee Garner Jr for punking him at the Xmas party.

Or at least blackmail the guy. Can't tell if threatening to out Lee is something he'd do, but I'd assume so by how he treated the Honda guys.
At this point only Don and Sal know about Garner, right? I don't think Roger knows. Although Roger saying something about lying for Garner could allude to him knowing.
Garner is a shady SOB. I think he may just be doing this to see Roger squirm and bend over backward for him.
Literally even maybe.
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If I was Roger and American Tobacco really does leave I'd hire a couple of longshoremen to beat the crap out of Lee Garner Jr for punking him at the Xmas party.

Or at least blackmail the guy. Can't tell if threatening to out Lee is something he'd do, but I'd assume so by how he treated the Honda guys.
At this point only Don and Sal know about Garner, right? I don't think Roger knows. Although Roger saying something about lying for Garner could allude to him knowing.
Garner is a shady SOB. I think he may just be doing this to see Roger squirm and bend over backward for him.
Yeah the part about this taking effect immediately because Garner doesn't have any pull with the Board and then 5 seconds later being able to give Roger 30 days seemed strange. There was something off with that entire scene.
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I wonder if Sal will return at some point. He's not with the new firm, right? Unless I've forgotten an episode, his sexual identity crisis storyline was never really resolved.

Sal can't return as long as the firm is dependent on American Tobacco (unless Lee Garner Jr. dies or something).
:thumbup:
Yeah, I'm sure Sal is coming back.
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