KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Debating the unknown is interesting at least. Debating known suckitude is masochism.
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Harrington proves Atlanta has good WR's & passing game. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Family Matters
- Start date
I drafted "that guy starting for the Rams" too
Aaronstory
Footballguy
I seem to recall Thomas Jones was written off before going to his third team and helping many a fantasy owner.
Al Czervik
Not wearing pants
Exactly. Joey used to look good in preseason with Detroit too.Aaronstory
Footballguy
How did Joey look in Detroit last year. You know, when he beat the Lions?Exactly. Joey used to look good in preseason with Detroit too.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
How did Joey look in Detroit last year. You know, when he beat the Lions?
How about the other 10 games he played in? You know, the 9 TD's and 14 picks?
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
He's still mediocre. Not sure what changed.
twistd
Footballguy
Think Damon Huard. He had never done anything special. But last year, in the right circumstances, he did a decent job. If Harrington can do that kind of a job for ATL they will be thrilled. The running game is often dependent on the O-line. They must be at least average or the running game wouldn't have been as good the last few years. So that is still in place. All in all I think rumors of their complete demise may be premature. Will they go to the Super Bowl? No, I don't think so. Will they win the division? Not with Carolina and the Saints in their division. But they may win more than 5 games, which is the prediction I heard.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Fixed. Don't see how you can compare the two.
bcr8f
Footballguy
Start with the offensive line. Both in Detroit and Miami they are terrible. Give Trent Green a non blocking line and he turns into Drew Bledsoe. Harrington may be able to manage games and give Falcons fans something to sheer for this year. Next year they can draft the franchise QB. If they can compete for wins this year they should be happy.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Huard is not a good comparison because he hasn't played nearly as much as Harrington has....same as the Warner comparisons. It's apples and oranges. How many QB's have started as many games as Harrington, played terrible for the majority of them...then all of a sudden became good QBs?
matuski
Footballguy
David Boston down?
redman
Footballguy
What's interesting to me about Petrino's offense is that it seems reminiscent of Joe Gibbs' offense: big offensive line and RB with a physical running game as the bread and butter, complemented by deep, play-action passes. That type of a scheme tends to reduce the QB's responsibilities and simplify things, allowing better stats from a lesser QB. Dennis Green ran that offense in Minnesota too with similar results in that regard.
This may be just what the doctor ordered for Harrington.
This may be just what the doctor ordered for Harrington.
OK fine, jumping in
In 7(I believe so, someone can hit a site to verify #) starts last year
Joey had 250+ yards 4 times.
He also had a paltry 137 yards but 3 TDs which might have wound up OK for him for the week in FF.
2 3 TD games
a 414 yard game
Not every NFL QB last year threw for 250+ in that % of games.
The rub-
completion percentage, not good at all but link to an FF league that scores that
More INTs than TDs but some leagues don't penalize INTs
I said last year and I'll say it again-He looked like he probably should have as a rook in Detroit. He's got a real good arm and slinged it all over the place. He made rookie(see should have) mistakes throwing the ball right to defenders on horrific reads at times.
The Fins wanted him to forget his Lions time. I don't know how a guy can forget a few years of his career but he sure looked like he did. I don't know how you can consider a 4th or 5th year player a rookie but he sure looked like one. Every rookie hopefully improves the next year so how are you supposed to predict this?
I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything but that guy looked different in 06. Trent Dilfer probably should have been out of football with his horrible play but somehow played great for the Ravens as a game manager. Rich Gannon was "eh" and somehow kept hanging onto teams until the Raiders when he "broke out" at like 37-38 years old. Similarly Vince Evans became a starting caliber NFL QB at like 37. IIRC Danny White stunk whenever he came in for Staubach and sure didn't look like Roger's replacement. Aaron Rodgers still hasn't looked good in an actual NFL regular season game but he has this preseason. So you "can't" say you've never seen a player finally "get it" years into his career.
That guy was different in 06. He's got some thoroughbreds playing WR and one of the better WRs and TEs of this era. He's worth a shot with your last pick.
In 7(I believe so, someone can hit a site to verify #) starts last year
Joey had 250+ yards 4 times.
He also had a paltry 137 yards but 3 TDs which might have wound up OK for him for the week in FF.
2 3 TD games
a 414 yard game
Not every NFL QB last year threw for 250+ in that % of games.
The rub-
completion percentage, not good at all but link to an FF league that scores that
More INTs than TDs but some leagues don't penalize INTs
I said last year and I'll say it again-He looked like he probably should have as a rook in Detroit. He's got a real good arm and slinged it all over the place. He made rookie(see should have) mistakes throwing the ball right to defenders on horrific reads at times.
The Fins wanted him to forget his Lions time. I don't know how a guy can forget a few years of his career but he sure looked like he did. I don't know how you can consider a 4th or 5th year player a rookie but he sure looked like one. Every rookie hopefully improves the next year so how are you supposed to predict this?
I'm not trying to sugarcoat anything but that guy looked different in 06. Trent Dilfer probably should have been out of football with his horrible play but somehow played great for the Ravens as a game manager. Rich Gannon was "eh" and somehow kept hanging onto teams until the Raiders when he "broke out" at like 37-38 years old. Similarly Vince Evans became a starting caliber NFL QB at like 37. IIRC Danny White stunk whenever he came in for Staubach and sure didn't look like Roger's replacement. Aaron Rodgers still hasn't looked good in an actual NFL regular season game but he has this preseason. So you "can't" say you've never seen a player finally "get it" years into his career.
That guy was different in 06. He's got some thoroughbreds playing WR and one of the better WRs and TEs of this era. He's worth a shot with your last pick.
Use Dilfer thenHighly touted prospect, stunk early on.....
Dreamer
Footballguy
Rich Gannon.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Gannon and Dilfer are 2 good examples. Thanks.
I will always root for Joey to turn it around and have a good career. He seems like a good kid.
The guy has the physical skills to make it as an NFL QB. We saw it in college, and we still see flashes of it every now and then in the NFL. What he appears to lack is confidence, and the ability to shake off bad plays. You can practically see him deflate after an INT, and then mistakes lead to more mistakes. Going to Detroit unfortunately did not mesh with that type of personality.
If, and its a big if, he can string together 6-7 good games in a row and get some swagger about him...then it might be time to look out. He's smart, he has the physical skills, but he needs that big "A-HA" moment with regard to confidence that comes from winning, and then figure out how to keep the swagger during the bad times.
Good luck Joey, and good luck Atlanta fans. I'll be rooting for you. A good season from Joey would be the feel-good story of the year in the NFL.
The guy has the physical skills to make it as an NFL QB. We saw it in college, and we still see flashes of it every now and then in the NFL. What he appears to lack is confidence, and the ability to shake off bad plays. You can practically see him deflate after an INT, and then mistakes lead to more mistakes. Going to Detroit unfortunately did not mesh with that type of personality.
If, and its a big if, he can string together 6-7 good games in a row and get some swagger about him...then it might be time to look out. He's smart, he has the physical skills, but he needs that big "A-HA" moment with regard to confidence that comes from winning, and then figure out how to keep the swagger during the bad times.
Good luck Joey, and good luck Atlanta fans. I'll be rooting for you. A good season from Joey would be the feel-good story of the year in the NFL.
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Aaronstory
Footballguy
Like the game in Chicago?How did Joey look in Detroit last year. You know, when he beat the Lions?Exactly. Joey used to look good in preseason with Detroit too.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
im somewhat surprised at the quantity of "meh its joey harrington he sucks" responses, especially from the staff.
the OP isnt saying take him over Peyton, folks. in addition, i think there may be WR4 or 5 value from some of the names in the original post, and i for one just added jenkins to the late round flier list.
Players surprise all the time.. i am not as quick to dismiss all things falcon as i was a few weeks ago.
the OP isnt saying take him over Peyton, folks. in addition, i think there may be WR4 or 5 value from some of the names in the original post, and i for one just added jenkins to the late round flier list.
Players surprise all the time.. i am not as quick to dismiss all things falcon as i was a few weeks ago.
Jeff Haseley
Moderator
I would venture a guess that when Harrington woke up this morning, he had a huge smile on his face - that is if he got any sleep at all. Let's face it, the guy is being scrutinized and compared to Vick by anyone and everyone. He has a tremendous amount of pressure on him to perform. He was thrust into the starting role and as much as he was looking forward to it, I'm sure he had his thoughts as to how he's going to perform based on his past performances. For him to have a good game, on national TV no less, it has to raise his spirits and boost his confidence dramatically. If you saw his reaction of not running, but sprinting down field to congratulate Adam Jennings after that first TD pass, then you know how important and how special that was. Harrington will be playing with an extra boost of confidence that might last the entire season, thanks to his positive game last night. Between Atlanta's spread offense and Harrington's confidence, I think the Atlanta passing game is definitely something to keep an eye on as the season begins.
In general most of those saying "Harrington sucks" don't know football. People forget Jeff Garcia couldn't make it work in Detroit either. Did he suddenly get better when he went to Philly? Or maybe it was the chants of the Detroit faithful, "We want Joey", while Garcia was starting that caused him to be a better QB?
Harrington didn't make it work in Miami, but who has? Even with the new coaching staff does anyone expect Green to be anything more than a tackling dummy in the sweet Florida air?
Harp on Harrington all you want, but its more fodder for the bar than good fantasy discussion.
-Rooni
Harrington didn't make it work in Miami, but who has? Even with the new coaching staff does anyone expect Green to be anything more than a tackling dummy in the sweet Florida air?
Harp on Harrington all you want, but its more fodder for the bar than good fantasy discussion.
-Rooni
Aaronstory
Footballguy
Oh I know, I hate it when I can draft a guy late and he turns into a solid RB2.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Huard was 30th in fantasy points per game at the QB position last year...if that's Harrington's best comparable, he's overvalued at his current ADP.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
We'll never know what could've been in Detroit for Garcia since he got hurt in pre-season then was probably rushed back from that injury prematurely.He was just fine in Cleveland under the circumstances. He put up better numbers than Harrington ever has.I think it's funny that one side of the argument is saying "stop making excuses for Vick" then has a laundry list of excuses for Harrington.I won't even get into the "we never get to see what Vick would do in this offense so even if Harrington looks a little better it doesn't prove anything" debate.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
switz
Footballguy
White still sucks - terrible hands. They need Robinson to step up. Jennings probably won't make the team.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Jeff Garcia went to three consecutive Pro Bowls in San Francisco...throwing 84 TDs against just 32 INTs over that span. He was also a major league threat as a runner (he's got 24 rushing TDs in his career). Just a little bit better of a resume to build off of than Harrington, wouldn't you say?
switz
Footballguy
Actually, I've always thought Harrington could be a good QB in a better situation. He was thrown in too early in DET, and his psyche there was damaged. MIA was just full of turmoil, and the team was never behind him. I actually think ATL will rally behind Harrington, Petrino is anawesome QB coach, and Harrington will be good this season.
I think you missed my point.
RBM
Footballguy
Exactly. That resume and he still looked horrendous in Detroit.
PRAE
Footballguy
Jason Wood
Zoo York
No, I didn't; just wanted to point out that its apples and oranges. It's like when people argue that Emmitt Smith would've sucked if he was playing for Detroit while Barry Sanders would've run for 2,500 yards a season behind the Cowboys line. But more directly to your contention, why do you think the ATL situation is better than what Harrington had to deal with in Detroit? Garcia benefited from one of the best offensive lines in football last year; do you honestly think the Falcons line will play to that level, or even close?
Or maybe they are remembering Rick Mierer, Tony Banks, or the 10,000 other QBs that DIDNT suddenly prosper by changing the scenery. We remember the success stories but forget the failures. By the above logic any QB will succeed if given enough different opportunities, but that just isnt true.
redman
Footballguy
Probably a better model to use here is Jake Delhomme. Both are guys with flaws in their games, but they also have raw talent and strong arms. Delhomme was nothing until he got onto a Panthers team that stressed defense and rushing first, allowing him to settle in and take shots only when appropriate.
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I think that's the upshot Redman, nice job. There is, of course, a major difference though as you know. Delhomme simply never got a shot at the starting job until he was traded to Carolina. Harrington has been given multiples shots at starting and failed at every turn.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Never ceases to amaze me every year. This is at least more interesting than the "RBs are deeper this year I think I'll wait" argument you hear every preseason.
Delhomme was a backup for a couple years or so who did real well whenever he came in.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Shut up Butters.Well, then he fits perfectly into the Atlanta system.
There are a few points that need to be made on the subject of Harrington and the Falcons passing game:
1. They have a real "us against the world" attitude as a TEAM right now. Harrington was on all of those awful Detroit teams that couldn't even get together behind the fact that they were all labeled as losers. Nobody had faith in Harrington, whether it was due to the rookie contract $$$ he was getting, the aloof way he goes about his personal business, or whatever the reason was. Seeing that Falcons team on the field last night it really looked like they were all doing the fundamental stuff the right way and keeping their mental mistakes to a minimum. They know they have little room for error on the field this year if they want to win games, and they know that the whole world is paying a little more attention to them this year due to the Vick fiasco. Seeing Harrington sprint to the endzone to congratulate his WR on the first TD pass, seeing the way he was smiling and encouraging his teammates on the sideline, there is a lot of good chemistry to this team right now and that's something you can see in a preseason game.
2. Michael Jenkins has been improving and working hard, and Harrington seems to have him locked in as his primary target. Roddy White doesn't seem any different, he continues to drop passes that hit him in the hands yet can make acrobatic amazing catches at other times. Joe Horn and Alge looked like nothing more than posession guys last night, but that gives Harrington a safety blanket down the middle of the field. Norwood and Dunn are both great at taking screen passes for big yardage, and Petrino has used a pretty good % of screen passes in his offensive philosophy in the past. If Harrington hits Norwood for a 50 yard screen pass that goes for a TD, he doesn't have to do much else but manage the game and he could easily end up with 250yds/2TDs.
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/MGBXIHY5G5F.html
3. Given where Harrington is going in fantasy drafts, and where Jenkins is going, I'd say both are worth having. The falcons will have to pass a decent amount this year, and Harrington can put up the yards and he can throw the deep ball. I don't think anyone is saying that Joey Harrington is going to lead the Falcons to the playoffs this year (although from what I've seen thus far it's a real possibility). If you just confine this to a fantasy football perspective, you have a QB who is
a) going to have to pass because the Falcons D isn't anything special
b) getting along with his teammates for the first time ever
c) trusting the coaching staff and front office (Arthur Blank personally told Harrington that he believes in him)
d) most of all, seemingly ready to prove everyone wrong who thinks he can't hack it in the NFL
e) and is surrounded by a solid run game, a solid O-Line, 2 veteran posession receivers in Horn/Crumpler, 1 athletic go-to guy in Jenkins, and a wildcard deep threat in White
Nobody thought Kurt Warner would do anything much but in the right situation he can flourish. Harrington has talked about how Petrino's offense isn't like anything else he's been in through the course of his entire football career. He seems genuinely intrigued and he's put his trust in the system. I haven't seen any major mental mistakes from him, and I believe that he's willing to place the team and the offensive philosophy above his own "i can fit that pass in there" desires.
I see nothing but positives from Harrington and Jenkins both from a fantasy perspective this year. Both should easily outperform their ADPs.
1. They have a real "us against the world" attitude as a TEAM right now. Harrington was on all of those awful Detroit teams that couldn't even get together behind the fact that they were all labeled as losers. Nobody had faith in Harrington, whether it was due to the rookie contract $$$ he was getting, the aloof way he goes about his personal business, or whatever the reason was. Seeing that Falcons team on the field last night it really looked like they were all doing the fundamental stuff the right way and keeping their mental mistakes to a minimum. They know they have little room for error on the field this year if they want to win games, and they know that the whole world is paying a little more attention to them this year due to the Vick fiasco. Seeing Harrington sprint to the endzone to congratulate his WR on the first TD pass, seeing the way he was smiling and encouraging his teammates on the sideline, there is a lot of good chemistry to this team right now and that's something you can see in a preseason game.
2. Michael Jenkins has been improving and working hard, and Harrington seems to have him locked in as his primary target. Roddy White doesn't seem any different, he continues to drop passes that hit him in the hands yet can make acrobatic amazing catches at other times. Joe Horn and Alge looked like nothing more than posession guys last night, but that gives Harrington a safety blanket down the middle of the field. Norwood and Dunn are both great at taking screen passes for big yardage, and Petrino has used a pretty good % of screen passes in his offensive philosophy in the past. If Harrington hits Norwood for a 50 yard screen pass that goes for a TD, he doesn't have to do much else but manage the game and he could easily end up with 250yds/2TDs.
http://www.tbo.com/sports/bucs/MGBXIHY5G5F.html
3. Given where Harrington is going in fantasy drafts, and where Jenkins is going, I'd say both are worth having. The falcons will have to pass a decent amount this year, and Harrington can put up the yards and he can throw the deep ball. I don't think anyone is saying that Joey Harrington is going to lead the Falcons to the playoffs this year (although from what I've seen thus far it's a real possibility). If you just confine this to a fantasy football perspective, you have a QB who is
a) going to have to pass because the Falcons D isn't anything special
b) getting along with his teammates for the first time ever
c) trusting the coaching staff and front office (Arthur Blank personally told Harrington that he believes in him)
d) most of all, seemingly ready to prove everyone wrong who thinks he can't hack it in the NFL
e) and is surrounded by a solid run game, a solid O-Line, 2 veteran posession receivers in Horn/Crumpler, 1 athletic go-to guy in Jenkins, and a wildcard deep threat in White
Nobody thought Kurt Warner would do anything much but in the right situation he can flourish. Harrington has talked about how Petrino's offense isn't like anything else he's been in through the course of his entire football career. He seems genuinely intrigued and he's put his trust in the system. I haven't seen any major mental mistakes from him, and I believe that he's willing to place the team and the offensive philosophy above his own "i can fit that pass in there" desires.
I see nothing but positives from Harrington and Jenkins both from a fantasy perspective this year. Both should easily outperform their ADPs.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I think this speaks to league and roster size. If the majority of fantasy leagues are:*** Redraft
*** 10- or 12-teamers
*** Start 1 QB
*** 16-20 rounds
I really struggle with the notion that Harrington is worth having, in a TYPICAL league. If you're in a league that requires just about every NFL starting QB to get rostered and also some backups, then "yes" I think you could argue that Harrington has more upside than many of the other 3rd and 4th tier QBs going late in drafts.
I don't disagree with this post but wow what if he does OK, what a steal he'll be as the last pick if he's OK. If he's not and it's obvious by week 1 or 2, and the WW is OK for QBs like alot of leagues are.....I wonder if that'd get ya deeper/better at other spots. What a wacky theory to tryETA And what if the WR or RB you selected instead could be traded for a QB .....
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Wood, do you really think guys like
Travaris Jackson
Charlie Frye
Damon Huard
Trent Green
Josh McCown
Jeff Garcia
are that much better than Harrington?
I'm not suggesting that Harrington is a worthy starter every week, or that he's a great #2, but if you wait to back up your QB what do you really have to choose from?
In a 12-team league if everyone rosters 2 QBs, there will be 8 left out there. Top of that list for me is Harrington and Culpepper.
I'd wager a good amount of money that Harrington finishes ahead of Jackson, Frye, Huard, Green, McCown and Garcia in FF ppg, and in my mind guys like Leftwich, McNair and Campbell too.
Travaris Jackson
Charlie Frye
Damon Huard
Trent Green
Josh McCown
Jeff Garcia
are that much better than Harrington?
I'm not suggesting that Harrington is a worthy starter every week, or that he's a great #2, but if you wait to back up your QB what do you really have to choose from?
In a 12-team league if everyone rosters 2 QBs, there will be 8 left out there. Top of that list for me is Harrington and Culpepper.
I'd wager a good amount of money that Harrington finishes ahead of Jackson, Frye, Huard, Green, McCown and Garcia in FF ppg, and in my mind guys like Leftwich, McNair and Campbell too.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Vick has yet to be an effective passer. It won't matter what offense he's in. He's proven he's not good and he's stated he's runner first and will always be. No reason to think he's willing to be anything different.Harrington is not being held out to be the savior. But I do think he'll be a much better passer than Vick. So far that's all I've said. I can see him reaching upwards of QB 15 but probably a little lower. But that's a big improvement over what Vick has done.Aaronstory said:
kensat30
Footballguy
[does of reality]Joey Harrington is a recipe for disaster. I think Atlanta has their worst season yet from a W-L perspective.
Joey may throw for more yardage and touchdowns than Vick, but that doesn't make him a better passer... Just wait for the poorly thrown deep balls you will start seeing sometime around the 2nd quarter in week 1. Just wait for Joey to roll out and throw the ball out of bounds after 3 seconds. Just wait for him to throw a bullet, right to the other team's SS. Harrington could throw for 3,500+ just as easily as he could throw for 2,500+ in 2007. He has no accuracy. Without accuracy in the NFL, you cannot succeed. How well Joey does from a fantasy perspective just depends on how much his coach, and maybe even the front office, wants to put the ball in his hands and call passing plays. Your yardage points will vary, but Harrington should throw for more INTs than TDs this season as well. [/dose of reality]
Joey may throw for more yardage and touchdowns than Vick, but that doesn't make him a better passer... Just wait for the poorly thrown deep balls you will start seeing sometime around the 2nd quarter in week 1. Just wait for Joey to roll out and throw the ball out of bounds after 3 seconds. Just wait for him to throw a bullet, right to the other team's SS. Harrington could throw for 3,500+ just as easily as he could throw for 2,500+ in 2007. He has no accuracy. Without accuracy in the NFL, you cannot succeed. How well Joey does from a fantasy perspective just depends on how much his coach, and maybe even the front office, wants to put the ball in his hands and call passing plays. Your yardage points will vary, but Harrington should throw for more INTs than TDs this season as well. [/dose of reality]
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