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Harrington proves Atlanta has good WR's & passing game. (1 Viewer)

KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
Aaronstory said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
buck naked said:
Bri said:
No last pick in a draft gets analyzed this much
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I distinctly remember one draft I was in about 10 years. The last pick of the draft was Kurt Warner the year he blew up.It's what we do in the shark pool.
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Debating the unknown is interesting at least. Debating known suckitude is masochism.
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I seem to recall Thomas Jones was written off before going to his third team and helping many a fantasy owner.
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He's still mediocre. Not sure what changed.
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Actually I think there have been enopugh changes to suggest he might improve. First off the coaching change should help. But just as importantly, he has better players around him. The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.But because some seem to think I'm suggesting that he'll beat out Manning, I will remind that I started this saying three things:1. He's a late round pick with upside and little risk.2. He'll do better "passing" the ball than Vick.3. Atlanta has good WR's and that'll bare out now that Vick is no longer the QB.So let's not get into the debate of he's not Manning or Warner or anything else but a late round pick with upside.
 
Hoh said:
I will always root for Joey to turn it around and have a good career. He seems like a good kid.The guy has the physical skills to make it as an NFL QB. We saw it in college, and we still see flashes of it every now and then in the NFL. What he appears to lack is confidence, and the ability to shake off bad plays. You can practically see him deflate after an INT, and then mistakes lead to more mistakes. Going to Detroit unfortunately did not mesh with that type of personality.If, and its a big if, he can string together 6-7 good games in a row and get some swagger about him...then it might be time to look out. He's smart, he has the physical skills, but he needs that big "A-HA" moment with regard to confidence that comes from winning, and then figure out how to keep the swagger during the bad times.Good luck Joey, and good luck Atlanta fans. I'll be rooting for you. A good season from Joey would be the feel-good story of the year in the NFL.
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:goodposting: You hear the guy talk and cant help but like him. Real good guy and really wants to do well. One of the smartest qbs out there also isnt he? I really think with more and more experience, he will get better and better. Reminds me of a Rich Gannon
 
Family Matters said:
Aaronstory said:
Family Matters said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
Is there a "what are you smoking?" emoticon?The Atlanta WRs are wildly inconsistent. Every year they'd put together nice games under Vick. Then everyone would start talking about how its all coming together, then they'd all start sucking again. It wasn't just Vick. Did you see that drop Roddy White had in the endzone? Hit him right in the hands. Classic Roddy White.Nothing has changed except they've brought in a worse QB than Vick. Yes they will pass more, but they won't be any more good at it. Well they did add a solid vet in Joe Horn, which is something Vick never had in Atlanta.Don't let one pre-season half game cloud the common sense you acquired about Joey over his 5 year career. Guys don't just change overnight. If he couldn't get it done with better WRs, why would he suddenly do it now?
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So you think Vick wasn't problem with the passing game? It's the coaches and WR's? Yet the back up QB's seemed to be more sucessful passing than Vick. Now Harrington has shown flashes in all 3 preseason games and you still think Vick isn't the problem. So maybe we should check back after 8 games and see where things stand. I feel Harrington will be much more effective passing than Vick. His comp %, yardsage, YPA and rating will all be better than Vick's best year. The WR's will look much better as well. Then you'll see what we've been trying to say for several years now.BTW-2 important comments. The reason they will pass more is because Vick refused to be patient and would chose to run the ball rather pass it. As for WR drops, every WR has the problem once in a while. In fact, TO is one of the worst. Yet Romo has put up some pretty good numbers. Hasselbeck had the worst WR drops a couple of years ago and still managed a top 8 season IIRC. So it's just an excuse when you don't want to hold the QB responsible. Check back after week 8 and let's take another look. If I'm out of my mind then feel free to point it out. Otherwise let's make sure we know where the accountability lies.
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Both above and in your original post you make valid points, but to say, as your headline does, that after three meaningless games it has been 'proved' that Vick was the problem, without ever seeing Vick in the new offense, is absurd.
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Vick has yet to be an effective passer. It won't matter what offense he's in. He's proven he's not good and he's stated he's runner first and will always be. No reason to think he's willing to be anything different.Harrington is not being held out to be the savior. But I do think he'll be a much better passer than Vick. So far that's all I've said. I can see him reaching upwards of QB 15 but probably a little lower. But that's a big improvement over what Vick has done.
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Perhaps we are working from different definitions, but I still don't see how it has been 'proved.' :goodposting: Look, I was one of the people saying the Falcons traded the wrong QB when they dealt Schaub, so I'm far from a Vick apologist. But, again, to say that you have all the answers to the Falcon passing game sewn up after three meaningless preseason games, one of which was against a Bengal team that couldn't cover your grandmother on a 'go' route, is, again, absurd.
 
RBM said:
Hoh said:
I will always root for Joey to turn it around and have a good career. He seems like a good kid.The guy has the physical skills to make it as an NFL QB. We saw it in college, and we still see flashes of it every now and then in the NFL. What he appears to lack is confidence, and the ability to shake off bad plays. You can practically see him deflate after an INT, and then mistakes lead to more mistakes. Going to Detroit unfortunately did not mesh with that type of personality.If, and its a big if, he can string together 6-7 good games in a row and get some swagger about him...then it might be time to look out. He's smart, he has the physical skills, but he needs that big "A-HA" moment with regard to confidence that comes from winning, and then figure out how to keep the swagger during the bad times.Good luck Joey, and good luck Atlanta fans. I'll be rooting for you. A good season from Joey would be the feel-good story of the year in the NFL.
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:goodposting: You hear the guy talk and cant help but like him.
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Miami fans can help but like him.
 
switz said:
Rooni said:
In general most of those saying "Harrington sucks" don't know football. People forget Jeff Garcia couldn't make it work in Detroit either. Did he suddenly get better when he went to Philly? Or maybe it was the chants of the Detroit faithful, "We want Joey", while Garcia was starting that caused him to be a better QB?

Harrington didn't make it work in Miami, but who has? Even with the new coaching staff does anyone expect Green to be anything more than a tackling dummy in the sweet Florida air?

Harp on Harrington all you want, but its more fodder for the bar than good fantasy discussion.

-Rooni
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Actually, I've always thought Harrington could be a good QB in a better situation. He was thrown in too early in DET, and his psyche there was damaged. MIA was just full of turmoil, and the team was never behind him. I actually think ATL will rally behind Harrington, Petrino is anawesome QB coach, and Harrington will be good this season.
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I didn't comment on the rallying point because that's very subjective and no one knows what the impact will be. But now that you mentioned it I will say that the folks in Atlanta much be feeling "what do we have to lose" after this mess. I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. And I have to think that Harrington doesn't have anything to lose so why not go for broke and prove everyone wrong. It could become the feel good NFL story for the year. The stars could be alinging.
 
Aaronstory said:
Family Matters said:
Aaronstory said:
Family Matters said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
Is there a "what are you smoking?" emoticon?The Atlanta WRs are wildly inconsistent. Every year they'd put together nice games under Vick. Then everyone would start talking about how its all coming together, then they'd all start sucking again. It wasn't just Vick. Did you see that drop Roddy White had in the endzone? Hit him right in the hands. Classic Roddy White.Nothing has changed except they've brought in a worse QB than Vick. Yes they will pass more, but they won't be any more good at it. Well they did add a solid vet in Joe Horn, which is something Vick never had in Atlanta.Don't let one pre-season half game cloud the common sense you acquired about Joey over his 5 year career. Guys don't just change overnight. If he couldn't get it done with better WRs, why would he suddenly do it now?
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So you think Vick wasn't problem with the passing game? It's the coaches and WR's? Yet the back up QB's seemed to be more sucessful passing than Vick. Now Harrington has shown flashes in all 3 preseason games and you still think Vick isn't the problem. So maybe we should check back after 8 games and see where things stand. I feel Harrington will be much more effective passing than Vick. His comp %, yardsage, YPA and rating will all be better than Vick's best year. The WR's will look much better as well. Then you'll see what we've been trying to say for several years now.BTW-2 important comments. The reason they will pass more is because Vick refused to be patient and would chose to run the ball rather pass it. As for WR drops, every WR has the problem once in a while. In fact, TO is one of the worst. Yet Romo has put up some pretty good numbers. Hasselbeck had the worst WR drops a couple of years ago and still managed a top 8 season IIRC. So it's just an excuse when you don't want to hold the QB responsible. Check back after week 8 and let's take another look. If I'm out of my mind then feel free to point it out. Otherwise let's make sure we know where the accountability lies.
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Both above and in your original post you make valid points, but to say, as your headline does, that after three meaningless games it has been 'proved' that Vick was the problem, without ever seeing Vick in the new offense, is absurd.
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Vick has yet to be an effective passer. It won't matter what offense he's in. He's proven he's not good and he's stated he's runner first and will always be. No reason to think he's willing to be anything different.Harrington is not being held out to be the savior. But I do think he'll be a much better passer than Vick. So far that's all I've said. I can see him reaching upwards of QB 15 but probably a little lower. But that's a big improvement over what Vick has done.
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Perhaps we are working from different definitions, but I still don't see how it has been 'proved.' :popcorn: Look, I was one of the people saying the Falcons traded the wrong QB when they dealt Schaub, so I'm far from a Vick apologist. But, again, to say that you have all the answers to the Falcon passing game sewn up after three meaningless preseason games, one of which was against a Bengal team that couldn't cover your grandmother on a 'go' route, is, again, absurd.
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But I'm not saying that. I'm saying he's a better passer than Vick. Could he be the answer? Not sure. But to take a flyer in your draft as your QB3 in the 18th-20th round isn't much of a risk for the potentail upside.Another point. Several are making a big deal out of it's just preseason. Well it's still football and it requires execution and preseason is where you demonstrate you can execute. Not so sure I'd discount it all together. I'm pretty sure if he were stinking it up it wouldn't go unnoticed.
 
I think at the first sign of adversity, Joey will revert to Detroit Joey, and refuse to throw the ball downfield. Good news for Alge and Warrick.

I would not be surprised to see ATL come sniffing around Oakland when Russell signs. If Culpepper wins the job, I wouldn't be surprised to see McCown or Walter gone to the Falcons.

 
Harrington's real problem is that is does no good for the Falcons to win 8 games with him at the helm compared to 3 with somebody else that has more longterm upside. Vick wont be back next year so its time to see if anybody else on the roster or waiver wire has any long term viability. Chris Redman may not get anybody's pulse racing, but if this year is a write off the Falcons might as well see if he's worth a roster spot.

 
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BigSeph said:
Wood, do you really think guys likeTravaris JacksonCharlie FryeDamon HuardTrent GreenJosh McCownJeff Garciaare that much better than Harrington?I'm not suggesting that Harrington is a worthy starter every week, or that he's a great #2, but if you wait to back up your QB what do you really have to choose from?In a 12-team league if everyone rosters 2 QBs, there will be 8 left out there. Top of that list for me is Harrington and Culpepper.I'd wager a good amount of money that Harrington finishes ahead of Jackson, Frye, Huard, Green, McCown and Garcia in FF ppg, and in my mind guys like Leftwich, McNair and Campbell too.
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Much better? :whistle: Not sure if you're a subscriber but if you are, you can see my projections for each of these guys. But to answer your question specifically:Joey Harrington -- 201 FPTsTarvaris Jackson -- 193 FPTsCharlie Frye -- 49 FPTs (I have Quinn starting 10 games this year, at least)Damon Huard -- 168 FPTsTrent Green -- 204 FPTsJosh McCown -- 0 FPTs (I have Culpepper starting, with Russell getting late season snaps)Jeff Garcia -- 231 FPTsThe only QB on this list I like a lot more than Harrington is Jeff Garcia; and I wouldn't be very comfortable with Garcia as my QB2 in 10- or 12-team redrafts.
 
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong.
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So before they kinda wanted to win, now they really want to win?
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Not even sure how to reply without sounding condecending. I'm guessing you see no difference in what happened after Vick got into trouble? :rolleyes: Or are you just :fishing:
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No I just don't buy into the whole "now they are really motivated" shtick. These are professionals, if they require extra motivation they should not be there. I am sure Oakland really wanted to prove everyone wrong last season.
 
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong.
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So before they kinda wanted to win, now they really want to win?
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Not even sure how to reply without sounding condecending. I'm guessing you see no difference in what happened after Vick got into trouble? :rolleyes: Or are you just :fishing:
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No I just don't buy into the whole "now they are really motivated" shtick. These are professionals, if they require extra motivation they should not be there. I am sure Oakland really wanted to prove everyone wrong last season.
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But it happens all the time. While I agree with the premise that they are professionals......they are still human and are affected by events that motivate them in different ways. Maybe they'll be flat or unaffected but then again maybe they'll have that little extra chip to drive them a little harder. Do you believe that happened in N.O last year? Not comparing the events just that something made them work a little harder.
 
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong.
Click to expand...
So before they kinda wanted to win, now they really want to win?
Click to expand...
Not even sure how to reply without sounding condecending. I'm guessing you see no difference in what happened after Vick got into trouble? :rolleyes: Or are you just :fishing:
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No I just don't buy into the whole "now they are really motivated" shtick. These are professionals, if they require extra motivation they should not be there. I am sure Oakland really wanted to prove everyone wrong last season.
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But it happens all the time. While I agree with the premise that they are professionals......they are still human and are affected by events that motivate them in different ways. Maybe they'll be flat or unaffected but then again maybe they'll have that little extra chip to drive them a little harder. Do you believe that happened in N.O last year? Not comparing the events just that something made them work a little harder.
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I think it only goes so far and generally can't come close to trumping a definitive deficiency in comparable talent to other NFC teams.
 
Joey would have games in the preseason like this in detroit too....and always regressed back to his incredibly mediocre self. I supported the guy longer than just about anyone, but face the fact: the guy is not going to be a good starting QB in the NFL. period.

 
Jason Wood said:
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong.
Click to expand...
So before they kinda wanted to win, now they really want to win?
Click to expand...
Not even sure how to reply without sounding condecending. I'm guessing you see no difference in what happened after Vick got into trouble? :lmao: Or are you just :cry:
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No I just don't buy into the whole "now they are really motivated" shtick. These are professionals, if they require extra motivation they should not be there. I am sure Oakland really wanted to prove everyone wrong last season.
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But it happens all the time. While I agree with the premise that they are professionals......they are still human and are affected by events that motivate them in different ways. Maybe they'll be flat or unaffected but then again maybe they'll have that little extra chip to drive them a little harder. Do you believe that happened in N.O last year? Not comparing the events just that something made them work a little harder.
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I think it only goes so far and generally can't come close to trumping a definitive deficiency in comparable talent to other NFC teams.
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:ph34r:
 
In my league, Harrington averaged just over 15 points per game over a nine game stretch last season. He served up a couple of real stinkers after that and Cleo Lemon took over for him in those games. But, for most of the season he was comparable or better than JP Losman, Alex Smith and other rostered QBs.

The reason for this probably has more to do with Miami playing from behind and putting up a lot of pass attempts than Joey's own abilities. However, given Petrino's spread offense, the likelihood that ATL will play from behind, and other factors, I figure Joey will have a high number of attempts again.

If that happens, then Joey is a legit QB2 or QB3 at the last pick. For Joey, it will all be about the number of pass attempts.

 
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
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Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line. But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.They've also got a rookie starting.So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :yes:
 
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
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Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line.

But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.

To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.

They've also got a rookie starting.

So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :confused:
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To those who want to argue this is the best line Harrington has ever had, I think that remains to be seen; and is, at best, even money right now.The Falcons gave up 47 sacks last year (with Vick under center) tied for 7th worst in the NFL. And they've returned the same unit, save for a rookie guard in place, and are asking them to learn a new blocking scheme.

Compare that to Harrington's offensive lines in Detroit:

2002 -- Lions allowed 20 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2003 -- Lions allowed 11 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2004 -- Lions allowed 37 sacks (16th in NFL)

2005 -- Lions allowed 31 sacks (Tied for 10th in the NFL)

This notion that Harrington was like David Carr and beaten mercilessly in his young career is patently incorrect and revisionist history. He was sacked fewer times than any NFL QB over his first two seasons, and only less than a handful of NFL QBs in his first three seasons.

 
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line. But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.They've also got a rookie starting.So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :shrug:
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Just basing on what I've seen so far. Granted it's preseason but so far they look better than what he had in Miami or Detroit.
 
Family Matters said:
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line.

But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.

To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.

They've also got a rookie starting.

So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :shrug:
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Just basing on what I've seen so far. Granted it's preseason but so far they look better than what he had in Miami or Detroit.
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By any objective measure I can't see how you can say this Family Matters. I think you may have forgotten just how solid his front five was in pass protection in Detroit.http://blog.footballguys.com/2007/08/28/fa...ingtons-career/

 
Jason Wood said:
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line.

But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.

To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.

They've also got a rookie starting.

So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :shrug:
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To those who want to argue this is the best line Harrington has ever had, I think that remains to be seen; and is, at best, even money right now.The Falcons gave up 47 sacks last year (with Vick under center) tied for 7th worst in the NFL. And they've returned the same unit, save for a rookie guard in place, and are asking them to learn a new blocking scheme.

Compare that to Harrington's offensive lines in Detroit:

2002 -- Lions allowed 20 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2003 -- Lions allowed 11 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2004 -- Lions allowed 37 sacks (16th in NFL)

2005 -- Lions allowed 31 sacks (Tied for 10th in the NFL)

This notion that Harrington was like David Carr and beaten mercilessly in his young career is patently incorrect and revisionist history. He was sacked fewer times than any NFL QB over his first two seasons, and only less than a handful of NFL QBs in his first three seasons.
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I'm asking because I can't remember but was he dumping a lot of passes to avoid the sack? I recall criticism that he wasn't allowing routes to develop and thus missing recievers or throwing it away. If so this would explain the lower sack totals but not explain the poor pass blocking.
 
Jason Wood said:
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line.

But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.

To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.

They've also got a rookie starting.

So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :shrug:
Click to expand...
To those who want to argue this is the best line Harrington has ever had, I think that remains to be seen; and is, at best, even money right now.The Falcons gave up 47 sacks last year (with Vick under center) tied for 7th worst in the NFL. And they've returned the same unit, save for a rookie guard in place, and are asking them to learn a new blocking scheme.

Compare that to Harrington's offensive lines in Detroit:

2002 -- Lions allowed 20 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2003 -- Lions allowed 11 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2004 -- Lions allowed 37 sacks (16th in NFL)

2005 -- Lions allowed 31 sacks (Tied for 10th in the NFL)

This notion that Harrington was like David Carr and beaten mercilessly in his young career is patently incorrect and revisionist history. He was sacked fewer times than any NFL QB over his first two seasons, and only less than a handful of NFL QBs in his first three seasons.
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Jason,Is it your position that taking Harrington late is a waste of time? You feel there no potential for upside from that draft position?

 
Family Matters said:
Jason Wood said:
Big Score said:
Family Matters said:
The O-line is the best he's had sinece joining the NFL and that will help considerably.
Click to expand...
Just an FYI about the Atlanta O'line being the best Joey has ever had.To begin with, they were a great run blocking line using Denver's Zone Blocking scheme, but were never a very good pass blocking line.

But that's really a moot point as Petrino has junked the Zone Blocking scheme thay've used for the past few years & wants his linemen to be big smash mouth behomths.

To that end, all the Falcon O'linemen were told to eat, eat & then just for good measure, eat some more.

They've also got a rookie starting.

So, in essence, it remains to be seen just how good Atlanta's O'line is going to be. :shrug:
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To those who want to argue this is the best line Harrington has ever had, I think that remains to be seen; and is, at best, even money right now.The Falcons gave up 47 sacks last year (with Vick under center) tied for 7th worst in the NFL. And they've returned the same unit, save for a rookie guard in place, and are asking them to learn a new blocking scheme.

Compare that to Harrington's offensive lines in Detroit:

2002 -- Lions allowed 20 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2003 -- Lions allowed 11 sacks (BEST in the NFL)

2004 -- Lions allowed 37 sacks (16th in NFL)

2005 -- Lions allowed 31 sacks (Tied for 10th in the NFL)

This notion that Harrington was like David Carr and beaten mercilessly in his young career is patently incorrect and revisionist history. He was sacked fewer times than any NFL QB over his first two seasons, and only less than a handful of NFL QBs in his first three seasons.
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Jason,Is it your position that taking Harrington late is a waste of time? You feel there no potential for upside from that draft position?
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Again, it depends on your league parameters. I was in a 10-teamer last night with short rosters (16 rounds)...so basically everyone drafted 2 QBs. In that system, no, I don't think Harrington is compelling.If you're in a league whereby all (or most) NFL starters get drafted and rostered, I think Harrington is worth taking over about a half dozen other projected Week One starters.

 
GordonGekko said:
Vinny Testaverde stunk it up for years and years before he "figured it out" late in his career.
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My Cousin Vinny had fantasy rankings of 16, 14, and 11 his first three years as a starting QB.In 5 years in the league, Harrington has yet to rank that high in any season.
 
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
j3r3m3y said:
Family Matters said:
I can see the rally motivating them top play a little better than normal just to prove people wrong.
Click to expand...
So before they kinda wanted to win, now they really want to win?
Click to expand...
Not even sure how to reply without sounding condecending. I'm guessing you see no difference in what happened after Vick got into trouble? :pickle: Or are you just :pickle:
Click to expand...
No I just don't buy into the whole "now they are really motivated" shtick. These are professionals, if they require extra motivation they should not be there. I am sure Oakland really wanted to prove everyone wrong last season.
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But it happens all the time. While I agree with the premise that they are professionals......they are still human and are affected by events that motivate them in different ways. Maybe they'll be flat or unaffected but then again maybe they'll have that little extra chip to drive them a little harder. Do you believe that happened in N.O last year? Not comparing the events just that something made them work a little harder.
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I agree something like this could make them work harder, or they could completely collapse in on each other for the entire season. Besides don't forget that New Orleans also added Drew Brees, REggie Bush, Marques Colston, Coach Sean Payton as huge additions to their team. Who have the Falcons added, Joe Horn?
 
Family Matters said:
I realize this is just 1 game but after watching some of the game and reviewing the Atlanta passing stats in the preseason, it seems clear that Atlanta does have some good WR's. It also seems clear that Atlanta has an effective passing game unlike when Vick was the QB. Harrington won't be able to do much running but that's what they have RB's for. His stats from the Cinn game totally blow away Vick's usual numbers:Harrington 13/21=164/2 Comp=61.9% an YPA of 7.80. Vick was never close to these numbers.Jennings 5-67-1Jenkins 4-45White 4-43Many would like to argue that the reasons Vick was not successful was due to coaching and bad WR's. I think you'll see more of this type performance now that Harrington is the QB and the Vick excuses can be put to bed. In fact I won't be surprised if Harrington is around QB15 for the year. And he can be had late in most drafts. He's even going undrafted in some leagues. He's a steal right now and will make a great QB3 for your team.Granted Vick was a better fantasy QB based on his rushing, but as far as winning football games I think it's very possible Harrington will be more effective. As far as passing the ball, no question Atlanta will be more balanced going forward.
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i was told i was fishing when i said the same thing in another thread.harrington>vick in terms of being a QB.
 
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
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I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
 
Family Matters said:
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
Is there a "what are you smoking?" emoticon?The Atlanta WRs are wildly inconsistent. Every year they'd put together nice games under Vick. Then everyone would start talking about how its all coming together, then they'd all start sucking again. It wasn't just Vick. Did you see that drop Roddy White had in the endzone? Hit him right in the hands. Classic Roddy White.Nothing has changed except they've brought in a worse QB than Vick. Yes they will pass more, but they won't be any more good at it. Well they did add a solid vet in Joe Horn, which is something Vick never had in Atlanta.Don't let one pre-season half game cloud the common sense you acquired about Joey over his 5 year career. Guys don't just change overnight. If he couldn't get it done with better WRs, why would he suddenly do it now?
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So you think Vick wasn't problem with the passing game? It's the coaches and WR's? Yet the back up QB's seemed to be more sucessful passing than Vick. Now Harrington has shown flashes in all 3 preseason games and you still think Vick isn't the problem. So maybe we should check back after 8 games and see where things stand. I feel Harrington will be much more effective passing than Vick. His comp %, yardsage, YPA and rating will all be better than Vick's best year. The WR's will look much better as well. Then you'll see what we've been trying to say for several years now.BTW-2 important comments. The reason they will pass more is because Vick refused to be patient and would chose to run the ball rather pass it. As for WR drops, every WR has the problem once in a while. In fact, TO is one of the worst. Yet Romo has put up some pretty good numbers. Hasselbeck had the worst WR drops a couple of years ago and still managed a top 8 season IIRC. So it's just an excuse when you don't want to hold the QB responsible. Check back after week 8 and let's take another look. If I'm out of my mind then feel free to point it out. Otherwise let's make sure we know where the accountability lies.
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:D I agree with you all the way Family Matters. Was Mike Vick a great athlete yes he was. Was Mike Vick a good quarter back, no. I have said this for years.
 
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Click to expand...
I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
Click to expand...
Where did I say that it "dictates", or anything remotely close to that? I merely mentioned his draft position (and college) to point out that his background up to his entry into the NFL gave him every advantage you could want in terms of preparation, and also speaks well as to his physical skills. Is there any round in which a QB is drafted that is more associated with successful careers than the first? Sorry if that's too ridiculous to mention amidst the Harrington bash fest. :lmao:
 
redman said:
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Click to expand...
I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
Click to expand...
Where did I say that it "dictates", or anything remotely close to that? I merely mentioned his draft position (and college) to point out that his background up to his entry into the NFL gave him every advantage you could want in terms of preparation, and also speaks well as to his physical skills. Is there any round in which a QB is drafted that is more associated with successful careers than the first? Sorry if that's too ridiculous to mention amidst the Harrington bash fest. :rolleyes:
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It's not ridiculous to mention. But using draft position as an argument for how good someone actually is in the NFL is not a good criteria. There are just too many people who get taken early and don't succeed and too many people who are taken late and do succeed. Obviously, with high picks you take people who you believe will be the best but it simply turns out that there are some people who cannot succeed in the NFL despite the fact that they were great college players, are strong, smart, or whatever other criteria you judge them by. Draft position should also never be used for fantasy purposes which is the whole point of this debate. A first overall QB will prolly never start or do well his first year and shouldn't be taken in a normal fantasy draft, where as, a RB taken in the 4th or 5th round has the potential to do extremely well his rookie season. Don't get dismissive during a fantasy discussion :goodposting:
 
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Click to expand...
I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not true. It is true that there are some first round busts, but they are only that because we EXPECT them to succeed. Go back and compare the percentage of players that make it in the NFL from the first round, versus those in the second, third, fourth, etc.More first rounders turn into studs than other rounds. So yes, draft position IS a good indicator of talent. It's not 100% accurate, but it still is something to measure by.
 
For all those advocating Harrington- quick mind game:

If Harrington were to bust this year and have a dismal season, will you be making the same arguments next year? After all, maybe NEXT year is the year he figures it out. Or maybe 09. Point is it didnt help to have any of the resurection guys mentioned a year too early.

 
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Click to expand...
I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
Click to expand...
Where did I say that it "dictates", or anything remotely close to that? I merely mentioned his draft position (and college) to point out that his background up to his entry into the NFL gave him every advantage you could want in terms of preparation, and also speaks well as to his physical skills. Is there any round in which a QB is drafted that is more associated with successful careers than the first? Sorry if that's too ridiculous to mention amidst the Harrington bash fest. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
It's not ridiculous to mention. But using draft position as an argument for how good someone actually is in the NFL is not a good criteria. There are just too many people who get taken early and don't succeed and too many people who are taken late and do succeed. Obviously, with high picks you take people who you believe will be the best but it simply turns out that there are some people who cannot succeed in the NFL despite the fact that they were great college players, are strong, smart, or whatever other criteria you judge them by. Draft position should also never be used for fantasy purposes which is the whole point of this debate. A first overall QB will prolly never start or do well his first year and shouldn't be taken in a normal fantasy draft, where as, a RB taken in the 4th or 5th round has the potential to do extremely well his rookie season. Don't get dismissive during a fantasy discussion :goodposting:
Click to expand...
Again, not true. It's just that we remember first round BUSTs more than late round failures, and late round surprisess more than first round successes.
 
switz said:
arcticmammal said:
redman said:
The hope would be that Harrington, who BTW has a better pedigree than Delhomme in terms of college and draft position, can blossom like that in a system that also emphasizes rushing and defense.
Click to expand...
I'm really tired of everyone saying that draft position dictates how good a player is going to be. There are so many busts (yay Ryan Leaf) in the first round that draft position only tells us how much they are going to be paid. Plus, there are plenty of players taken late or not taken at all who turn out to be fantastic players in the NFL. Kurt WArner, Stephen Davis, Tom Brady. FREAKIN' TOM BRADY!!!Draft position is only an indication of their paycheck and in some instances of they're opportunities. There are plenty of late rounders who don't get any opportunities to show how good they are.
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not true. It is true that there are some first round busts, but they are only that because we EXPECT them to succeed. Go back and compare the percentage of players that make it in the NFL from the first round, versus those in the second, third, fourth, etc.More first rounders turn into studs than other rounds. So yes, draft position IS a good indicator of talent. It's not 100% accurate, but it still is something to measure by.
Click to expand...
hmmmm........maybe, but as far as fantasy purposes go draft position/school/and everything else is not the do or die factor. Success in the NFL and for fantasy has more to do then just these factors. But your right there's really not much else to go off of in terms of drafting then what they have done in college.
 
mbuehner said:
For all those advocating Harrington- quick mind game:If Harrington were to bust this year and have a dismal season, will you be making the same arguments next year? After all, maybe NEXT year is the year he figures it out. Or maybe 09. Point is it didnt help to have any of the resurection guys mentioned a year too early.
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Point taken. But there have been some significant changes that equal opportunity and influence motivation. The changes are primarily the coaches and Vick's departure leaving Harrington with unexpected opportunity when he and many others thought none existed for now. Motivation spawns from this opportunity and world of doubters about Harrington and the Falcons for this year. So when you add it up and watch them play so far in preseason you begin to see a light at the end of the tunnel. Granted that light might be a freight train but then again.....
 
I think Harrington has as much a chance as anybody to turn it around. I know he has had a crappy career and I realize this is only pre-season but I think he has a different look in his eye. I have read in this thread that he is a poor leader (which I never read anything from his coaches / players to indicate was true) but I have seen him look like a solid leader in pre-season. He is getting after other players and seems to be trying to motivate his teammates. He seems real fiery out there and more confident than I have seen him. That has nothing to do with pre-season. I think this guy definately has to consistently get solid results to change people's perceptions and it is going to be an uphill battle.

The crazy part of pre-season is that alot of people are very hypocritical. They will use it to say that player xx is looking great and is going to have a great year but they also use it to down a player they don't like or has a bad reputation by saying oh it's just pre-season. Why is it Harrington is looking good but it is only pre-season but the Bengals are looking bad even though it's just pre-season. (bad example cuz the Bengals pass d is always bad but you get the point)

 
Family Matters said:
RalphMouth said:
wdcrob said:
I don't know if Harrington's a better passer than Vick, but there's an extra 100+ attempts to go 'round now that Vick's not running on passing plays. That's 3-4 more completions per game and 50+ for the season. So the WRs should all see a sizable bump in their numbers. One of the WRs and Crumpler should be worth owning.
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so which WR will be the best in Atlanta ?M Jenkins, White or Horn ??

Jenkins and White are still available in our league- thinking of making a move here
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Jenkins will the one to have.
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Jenkins over horn? I know Horn hasnt been getting much love in the preseason, but I was guessing that was because Horn and Harrington already had a connection going on. It will be interesting to see in the first game .....who does Joey turn to? My guess is Horn.
 
David Yudkin said:
GordonGekko said:
Vinny Testaverde stunk it up for years and years before he "figured it out" late in his career.
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My Cousin Vinny had fantasy rankings of 16, 14, and 11 his first three years as a starting QB.In 5 years in the league, Harrington has yet to rank that high in any season.
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Plus Vinny didn't "figure it out" so much as he got to play under Parcells, who has a pretty good track record of squeezing everything out of a QB.
 
mbuehner said:
For all those advocating Harrington- quick mind game:If Harrington were to bust this year and have a dismal season, will you be making the same arguments next year? After all, maybe NEXT year is the year he figures it out. Or maybe 09. Point is it didnt help to have any of the resurection guys mentioned a year too early.
Click to expand...
He just won't have played in the right system yet. That system being the CFL of course.
 
DWidmar said:
The crazy part of pre-season is that alot of people are very hypocritical. They will use it to say that player xx is looking great and is going to have a great year but they also use it to down a player they don't like or has a bad reputation by saying oh it's just pre-season. Why is it Harrington is looking good but it is only pre-season but the Bengals are looking bad even though it's just pre-season. (bad example cuz the Bengals pass d is always bad but you get the point)
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Here is a better examply. Against that same poor defense, Norwood was great! Was it just pre-season for qb's?http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t=0&start=0

 
Lets face it, Vick will never play another down in Atlanta again, so let hope that Joey works out for them.

The guy was a first class person in Detroit despite the problems.

 
captbly said:
Family Matters said:
RalphMouth said:
wdcrob said:
I don't know if Harrington's a better passer than Vick, but there's an extra 100+ attempts to go 'round now that Vick's not running on passing plays. That's 3-4 more completions per game and 50+ for the season. So the WRs should all see a sizable bump in their numbers. One of the WRs and Crumpler should be worth owning.
Click to expand...
so which WR will be the best in Atlanta ?M Jenkins, White or Horn ??

Jenkins and White are still available in our league- thinking of making a move here
Click to expand...
Jenkins will the one to have.
Click to expand...
Jenkins over horn? I know Horn hasnt been getting much love in the preseason, but I was guessing that was because Horn and Harrington already had a connection going on. It will be interesting to see in the first game .....who does Joey turn to? My guess is Horn.
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It may work out that way. I was thinking by year's end Jenkins would be the go to but I could easily see Horn getting some serious love as well. I do think Jenkins will be the better WR by year's end. He's very talented.
 
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