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1 minute ago, FF Ninja said:

That's why I say it's not good to use SBs. Any arm chair analyst can tell you that Eli has never been a special QB. He was just in the right place at the right time... twice.

Life isn't fair, and luck def plays a part in it, no different here. I hate Eli, but I think he is basically a lock. 

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Sounds like the kind of thing a guy who doesn't have 15 kids would say...

Good for him, man. He can finally start a family. 

Exactly.  Anyone dogging Rivers after today's game is out of their mind.  His defense literally allowed a TD on five straight drives to start the game, and Belichick and his staff made the Charge

3 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

Rivers I think is like 60/40 getting in, maybe between years 3-5 of eligibility. If he doesn't get in, I don't think anyone would consider it a snub, if he gets in, I don't think anyone would heavily object. Feels like a guy on the fringe. 

I actually agree with this

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21 minutes ago, msommer said:

Supposing he wins the next two games his record will be 7-5 and having attained the SB participant status......

As for being the best in a season - He's played at the same time as Favre, Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers - that's some pretty stiff competition for best in any given season

(Big Ben Rapesliberger hopefully never makes it to the HOF)

Sorry to tell you, bud, Roethlisberger is a 100% lock.

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1 minute ago, fantasycurse42 said:

Life isn't fair, and luck def plays a part in it, no different here. I hate Eli, but I think he is basically a lock. 

If I'm voting, I'm not voting a guy in based on him getting lucky. That's just a bizarre take that he deserves to get in because he was lucky.

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11 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

If I'm voting, I'm not voting a guy in based on him getting lucky. That's just a bizarre take that he deserves to get in because he was lucky.

I'm not saying he is in bc he is lucky, he is in bc he has 2 SB rings. If luck played a part in those 2 rings, it is what it is. 

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The more I watch Rivers the more I appreciate his game.   Rivers arm is not the strongest, he not mobile, a lumbering runner.  The one thing about Rivers is that he knows the game and knows where to go with the football.   Over the last few weeks I have seen Rivers read where the rush or blitz is coming from and just let go of the ball knowing the RB or WR is going to be wide open.

If Matt Stafford had Rivers football IQ he would be MVP material..but unfortunately he does not.

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49 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

I'm not saying he is in bc he is lucky, he is in bc he has 2 SB rings. If luck played a part in those 2 rings, it is what it is. 

I feel like that's just lazy. If luck played a part in it, then that should be taken into account, not brushed under the rug and ignored. 

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9 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

I feel like that's just lazy. If luck played a part in it, then that should be taken into account, not brushed under the rug and ignored. 

There are some ways in which Eli got lucky during the Super Bowl runs, but it's nothing like Tom Brady 2001 lucky. Eli threw 16 TDs vs. 2 INTs in those Super Bowl runs; he legitimately played well.

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12 minutes ago, FF Ninja said:

I feel like that's just lazy. If luck played a part in it, then that should be taken into account, not brushed under the rug and ignored. 

The results are the results, and however you want to quantify them, they all lead to the same outcome, 2 SB rings. 

You can't argue the 2007 Pats as being the greatest team ever, the 2007 Giants were better because they won the game and they hoisted the Lombardi Trophy. A lucky catch here or there goes away, now you can easily say this was the greatest team ever. The only argument you can make for this team is they were the best team in history to not win a championship. 

The debate after the fact are based on the results. 

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On 1/8/2019 at 7:13 AM, fantasycurse42 said:

I have to disagree with this. 

A QB with almost a decade and a half, the luck evens out, goes both ways.

 

The organization and coaching staffs have been pretty bad between about 2008 and now. Given your approach, guys like Archie Manning Dan Fouts and Warren Moon wouldn't be in the Hall Of Fame either. I can't get on board with that.

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1 hour ago, fantasycurse42 said:

The results are the results, and however you want to quantify them, they all lead to the same outcome, 2 SB rings. 

You can't argue the 2007 Pats as being the greatest team ever, the 2007 Giants were better because they won the game and they hoisted the Lombardi Trophy. A lucky catch here or there goes away, now you can easily say this was the greatest team ever. The only argument you can make for this team is they were the best team in history to not win a championship. 

The debate after the fact are based on the results. 

As I recall, if a middling Baltimore team had not called a timeout they would've beaten the Pats in the regular season. It takes luck just to go 16-0 in that case. You could easily argue that the Pats were the best team in the league that year, though, while I don't think anyone would argue the Giants were the best team in the league that year. This is why one game playoffs are so poor at determining the best team. Hell, one bad call almost made a drastic change in the Chargers last game. The fullback pretty clearly caught a TD, it was ruled incorrectly, and on the very next play the Ravens almost scored a defensive TD. That would be a 14 point swing in a game that is regularly decided by a FG.

This is why the HoF should simply evaluate a guy's play on the field. Was he one of the best? In. Was he mediocre but got lucky in a team game? Out.

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5 hours ago, Gr00vus said:

Thanks for the correction. I'll replace him with Dan Fouts to make my point.

A strong argument usually doesn't stem from needing to be corrected and updated with different variables. 

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On 1/8/2019 at 10:56 AM, fantasycurse42 said:

I'm not saying he is in bc he is lucky, he is in bc he has 2 SB rings. If luck played a part in those 2 rings, it is what it is. 

So if Nick Foles wins three more games this postseason, he's a lock for the HoF?

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1 hour ago, Alex P Keaton said:

Well, at least this nonsense about Rivers in the HOF is over then.

Yeah his limitations make him an average QB. He makes some great throws sometimes but he's terrible at extending plays and I've never been impressed with how he reads defenses. 

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12 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Yeah his limitations make him an average QB. He makes some great throws sometimes but he's terrible at extending plays and I've never been impressed with how he reads defenses. 

Agree with you 100%.  

But I'm just going off what Bass n Brew wrote. If today defines Rivers, then there is zero way he belongs in the HOF.   Of course, I think that is true based on his whole career, not just today.

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2 minutes ago, Alex P Keaton said:

He's not average, but he isn't a HOF.   The case is pretty obvious, and today only cements the final brick in the wall.

Explain how this 1 game losing at a very good team who is undefeated at home cements his 13 year career? 

You can name the qbs with more touchdown passes than rivers on one hand (hint all are in or lock HOF). 

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3 minutes ago, NREC34 said:

He’s compiled great stats but can’t come close to even getting to a super bowl 

Almost like playing in the same era and conference as 2 top 5 QBs of all time and another HOF makes it hard to win the conference. 

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14 minutes ago, IHEARTFF said:

Explain how this 1 game losing at a very good team who is undefeated at home cements his 13 year career? 

You can name the qbs with more touchdown passes than rivers on one hand (hint all are in or lock HOF). 

I've explained multiple times in this thread and others why simple stats like total passing yards and TDs don't make any sense when evaluating a QB.  I'm sure you already understand that, but if you don't, it's not difficult to understand with some basic reading material.

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He’ll get in the HOF. Just have to wonder if he gets passed over a time or two first. All depends on who retires the same/next year for the other QBs who have won the big game. Those will be the debates. Only so many direct QB competitors and there would be a year he won’t have competition for votes.

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41 minutes ago, Riffraff said:

He’ll get in the HOF. Just have to wonder if he gets passed over a time or two first. All depends on who retires the same/next year for the other QBs who have won the big game. Those will be the debates. Only so many direct QB competitors and there would be a year he won’t have competition for votes.

He's a very good QB that has had a long career.  Just seems like he isn't HOF special.  Has he had any special big wins?   

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I know the title of this thread calls him terrible but I've never claimed that. He's just not elite. 

Time will tell if he's a HOF. I don't think he should be but I don't think Eli is either.......Teams don't really fear him and he's had some great teams around that he didn't win a SB with......

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2 hours ago, Milkman said:

The Chargers are 118-90 in the regular season since Rivers took over. 5-6 in the playoffs losing several games they were favored in. 

 

Brady, peyton and Roethlisberger are a combined 47-27 since rivers has been in the NFL. There have been 74 playoff games between AFC opponents from the 2004 to 2018 seasons, and those 3 guys have won over half (38). 

Flacco has 9 wins against afc opponents in that time, but hasn't put up elite passing stats. 

Of the remaining qbs, rvers has won 5, which is more than any other afc qb in that time.

Brady (23), Roethlisberger (12), manning (11) flacco (9) and rivers (5) are the top 5 quarterbacks in wins against afc opponents. All other quarterbacks have 14 wins combined.  5 of his 6 losses came against them, and two of his wins (both against peyton).

I don't know if that's an argument that helps or hurts him, but he played against some very tough contemporaries. Maybe he doesn't belong in the hall because he wasn't top 3 in his own conference.  Maybe he does because he played really well but happened to be in a dominant era for afc qbs.

But before you rush to judgment on rivers - the most winning nfc qbs in that same timeframe are Rodgers (9 nfc wins), brees (8) and eli (6). Maybe rivers was just in the same conference as some dominant teams.  

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7 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Brady, peyton and Roethlisberger are a combined 47-27 since rivers has been in the NFL. There have been 74 playoff games between AFC opponents from the 2004 to 2018 seasons, and those 3 guys have won over half (38). 

Flacco has 9 wins against afc opponents in that time, but hasn't put up elite passing stats. 

Of the remaining qbs, rvers has won 5, which is more than any other afc qb in that time.

Brady (23), Roethlisberger (12), manning (11) flacco (9) and rivers (5) are the top 5 quarterbacks in wins against afc opponents. All other quarterbacks have 14 wins combined.  5 of his 6 losses came against them, and two of his wins (both against peyton).

I don't know if that's an argument that helps or hurts him, but he played against some very tough contemporaries. Maybe he doesn't belong in the hall because he wasn't top 3 in his own conference.  Maybe he does because he played really well but happened to be in a dominant era for afc qbs.

But before you rush to judgment on rivers - the most winning nfc qbs in that same timeframe are Rodgers (9 nfc wins), brees (8) and eli (6). Maybe rivers was just in the same conference as some dominant teams.  

Or a conference with a majority of hapless teams?

Interesting post Bfred.  

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30 minutes ago, bostonfred said:

Brady, peyton and Roethlisberger are a combined 47-27 since rivers has been in the NFL. There have been 74 playoff games between AFC opponents from the 2004 to 2018 seasons, and those 3 guys have won over half (38). 

Flacco has 9 wins against afc opponents in that time, but hasn't put up elite passing stats. 

Of the remaining qbs, rvers has won 5, which is more than any other afc qb in that time.

Brady (23), Roethlisberger (12), manning (11) flacco (9) and rivers (5) are the top 5 quarterbacks in wins against afc opponents. All other quarterbacks have 14 wins combined.  5 of his 6 losses came against them, and two of his wins (both against peyton).

I don't know if that's an argument that helps or hurts him, but he played against some very tough contemporaries. Maybe he doesn't belong in the hall because he wasn't top 3 in his own conference.  Maybe he does because he played really well but happened to be in a dominant era for afc qbs.

But before you rush to judgment on rivers - the most winning nfc qbs in that same timeframe are Rodgers (9 nfc wins), brees (8) and eli (6). Maybe rivers was just in the same conference as some dominant teams.  

But it’s a team sport, so you can’t hang wins and losses on one guy, when you have a whole team, coaching staff and front office that play a huge role in the product on the field.

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11 minutes ago, Rove! said:

But it’s a team sport, so you can’t hang wins and losses on one guy, when you have a whole team, coaching staff and front office that play a huge role in the product on the field.

Exactly. 

Anyone dogging Rivers after today's game is out of their mind.  His defense literally allowed a TD on five straight drives to start the game, and Belichick and his staff made the Chargers coaches look like utter fools today. Good luck finding any QB who can overcome that.  

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14 hours ago, Milkman said:

The Chargers are 118-90 in the regular season since Rivers took over. 5-6 in the playoffs losing several games they were favored in

Regarding the bolded, the Chargers were only actually favored in 3 of the 11 playoff games they have played during Rivers' career. They lost 2 of those 3:

2006 postseason - lost at home to NE, 24-21

  • The Chargers led 21-13 with 6:25 remaining, when Brady was intercepted on 4th and 5, then the defender fumbled the ball back to NE, giving them a 9 yard gain and a 1st down. NE went on to score a TD and get a 2 point conversion on that drive to tie the game.
    • Had the defender not fumbled the ball or, even better, had the presence of mind not to catch it at all, but just bat it down, it is very unlikely NE would have been able to rally to win the game.
    • But the defense still could have stopped NE from scoring a TD.
  • The Chargers punted back to NE with 3:30 remaining. The Chargers then allowed NE to drive 72 yards before kicking a go ahead FG, highlighted by a 49 yard pass to Reche Caldwell.
    • Again, the defense was at fault here.
  • The Chargers got the ball back down by a FG with 1:05 remaining and no timeouts. Rivers drove them 39 yards to the NE 36 with 8 seconds remaining. He was 3/5 on the drive, but both incompletions were spikes to stop the clock. Without a timeout, the coaching staff chose not to run another play and instead attempt a 54 yard FG on 2nd down. Kaeding missed the FG.
    • Kaeding missed the FG, not Rivers. 

2009 postseason - lost at home to NYJ, 17-14

  • Kaeding was 0/3 on FGs, including misses from 36, 40, and 57 (at end of first half) yards. He was 1st team All Pro that season, having gone 32/35 on FGs in the regular season.

Rivers didn't play well in either of those games, but that really wasn't that surprising. In 2006, NE was #2 in points allowed and #6 in yards allowed, and, of course, they were coached by defensive mastermind Belichick; in 2009, the Jets were #1 in both points allowed and yards allowed. Rivers certainly was not solely or even primarily the reason they lost those games.

This also means he is 4-4 in postseason games the Chargers were expected to lose. That is pretty good.

Edited by Just Win Baby
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3 hours ago, Milkman said:

I know the title of this thread calls him terrible but I've never claimed that. He's just not elite. 

Time will tell if he's a HOF. I don't think he should be but I don't think Eli is either.......Teams don't really fear him and he's had some great teams around that he didn't win a SB with......

The only reason Eli may make it is beating Brady twice in Super Bowls. 

What could get Rivers there?

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