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Juxtatarot

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You can't understate how badly the Bulls have started out this year. This is making me long for the good old days of Kornell David and Dalibor Bagaric.

This was their second bad loss of the season. The other being the loss at home to PHI. And yes, I lost $ on that game too.Their other losses were at NJ, at MIL(playing better this year) and a loss at home to the Clippers who are just on fire right now even though they're not at full strength. I wouldn't call those GOOD LOSSES but they aren't terrible losses either which is why I played CHI again tonight. This was just awful and I'll lay off them for awhile until they get turned around. Still think it's a good team(they're the only team that has beaten DET this season) but obviously not playing well at the moment. Tough road trip ahead but at this point they're probably better off getting out of town and avoid the homers screaming the sky is falling.It's a marathon. You can certainly recover from the first 1/17th of your schedule.
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You can't understate how badly the Bulls have started out this year. This is making me long for the good old days of Kornell David and Dalibor Bagaric.

This was their second bad loss of the season. The other being the loss at home to PHI. And yes, I lost $ on that game too.Their other losses were at NJ, at MIL(playing better this year) and a loss at home to the Clippers who are just on fire right now even though they're not at full strength. I wouldn't call those GOOD LOSSES but they aren't terrible losses either which is why I played CHI again tonight. This was just awful and I'll lay off them for awhile until they get turned around. Still think it's a good team(they're the only team that has beaten DET this season) but obviously not playing well at the moment. Tough road trip ahead but at this point they're probably better off getting out of town and avoid the homers screaming the sky is falling.It's a marathon. You can certainly recover from the first 1/17th of your schedule.
Did you watch the Bucks-Bulls game? You couldn't have. Both teams played terribly. I agree, though: It's a long season. The Bulls have too much talent and are too hard-working to not be able to turn it around.
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Did you watch the Bucks-Bulls game? You couldn't have. Both teams played terribly. I agree, though: It's a long season. The Bulls have too much talent and are too hard-working to not be able to turn it around.

It doesn't help when your own fans are shouting someone else's name every time you suck..... :popcorn:
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

;)
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:rolleyes:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:goodposting:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
Neither.Last season 'Gunz spent most of the year touting the lakers as a contender and repeatedly said the Nets should trade Jason Kidd to the lakers for lint and spare change because the Nets had no chance in the playoffs. Turns out Kidd and the Nets got to the second round while bryant could only muster one win in the playoffs and watched Kidd playing in the playoffs on TV. Smarting from last year he'll somehow find pleasure if CHI doesn't do well in the playoffs after not making a bad trade with the lakers. Meh, if you're a laker fan you probably look for small victories like "Well CHI didn't win a title WITHOUT dealing for bryant". I don't blame them. The lakers are already tied for the 8th and final spot in the playoffs with a more talented DEN team..... and that's with DEN playing 4/5 on long east coast swing and la playing 4/5 games at home.
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The Bulls are in bad shape.

Did they turn into a bad team overnight OR are they going through a really bad slump that will likely continue into the upcoming road trip ?
This is essentially the same team as last year, I don't know what the F their problem is.
That's my point - it's the same team. Their offense has looked horrible this season - ball movement has been horrible, and the team takes nothing but jump shots.
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The Bulls are in bad shape.

Did they turn into a bad team overnight OR are they going through a really bad slump that will likely continue into the upcoming road trip ?
This is essentially the same team as last year, I don't know what the F their problem is.
That's my point - it's the same team. Their offense has looked horrible this season - ball movement has been horrible, and the team takes nothing but jump shots.
I would think that based on the games I've seen talks would heat back up with MEM with regard to Gasol. MEM is still floundering around in the west and doesn't even appear to be improving with Gasol.Do CHI homers have the scoop why those talks stalled last season?People seem like their asleep on him but Chris Wilcox has quietly been improving leaps and bounds since he arrived in SEA. I'd love to see Wilcox starting for CHI.
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The Bulls are in bad shape.

Did they turn into a bad team overnight OR are they going through a really bad slump that will likely continue into the upcoming road trip ?
This is essentially the same team as last year, I don't know what the F their problem is.
That's my point - it's the same team. Their offense has looked horrible this season - ball movement has been horrible, and the team takes nothing but jump shots.
I would think that based on the games I've seen talks would heat back up with MEM with regard to Gasol. MEM is still floundering around in the west and doesn't even appear to be improving with Gasol.Do CHI homers have the scoop why those talks stalled last season?People seem like their asleep on him but Chris Wilcox has quietly been improving leaps and bounds since he arrived in SEA. I'd love to see Wilcox starting for CHI.
The Memphis talks stalled last season because of what Memphis was asking for. It's still never been confirmed anywhere, but it was believed to be a Gordon/Deng asking price for Gasol, and the Bulls said no.I have read that Gasol has looked to improve his image there, doing a lot of fan friendly PR things so I'm not even sure he's on the block as of right now.
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The Memphis talks stalled last season because of what Memphis was asking for. It's still never been confirmed anywhere, but it was believed to be a Gordon/Deng asking price for Gasol, and the Bulls said no.I have read that Gasol has looked to improve his image there, doing a lot of fan friendly PR things so I'm not even sure he's on the block as of right now.

We'll see if they improve but as it stands right now you can't help but think they'll be looking to make some move. Weren't they rumored to be trying to become more athletic as of late? Seems like Thomas or Noah would be a good fit if that was their goal.The reason I suggested Wilcox earlier is SEA needs help in the back court and imo Jeff Green has really shown some flashes for them. I don't think you can play Wilcox at center so there's really no way to play Durant/Green/Wilcox the minutes they all deserve. One would think that Gordon+ would tempt SEA into making a move that enables Green to be on the floor more.
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I have read that Gasol has looked to improve his image there, doing a lot of fan friendly PR things so I'm not even sure he's on the block as of right now.

He's staying in Memphis for the foreseeable future, I think. They would have moved him by now otherwise. They have a good young core with Conley, Warrick and Lowry. Gasol is the best player they have and fits the new coach's system. They're not a good team now but they can be in the future. They might not even have a better record than last year's but they will be a better team. Stoudamire will be moved this season.
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I have read that Gasol has looked to improve his image there, doing a lot of fan friendly PR things so I'm not even sure he's on the block as of right now.

He's staying in Memphis for the foreseeable future, I think. They would have moved him by now otherwise. They have a good young core with Conley, Warrick and Lowry. Gasol is the best player they have and fits the new coach's system. They're not a good tam now but they can be in the future. They might not even have a better record an last year but they will be a better team. Stoudamire will be moved this season.
I agree with your thoughts, though you did forget Rudy Gay.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:thumbup:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
Neither.Last season 'Gunz spent most of the year touting the lakers as a contender and repeatedly said the Nets should trade Jason Kidd to the lakers for lint and spare change because the Nets had no chance in the playoffs. Turns out Kidd and the Nets got to the second round while bryant could only muster one win in the playoffs and watched Kidd playing in the playoffs on TV. Smarting from last year he'll somehow find pleasure if CHI doesn't do well in the playoffs after not making a bad trade with the lakers.
I was definitely touting the Lakers as a contender when they were 30-19 after 49 games, fighting for the 4th spot in the west.

Meh, if you're a laker fan you probably look for small victories like "Well CHI didn't win a title WITHOUT dealing for bryant". I don't blame them. The lakers are already tied for the 8th and final spot in the playoffs with a more talented DEN team..... and that's with DEN playing 4/5 on long east coast swing and la playing 4/5 games at home.

Funny but not surprised that you fail to mention the Lakers have been without Odom for 4/5 games, and those games have been against Hou, Utah, PHX, and NO.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:thumbup:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:thumbup:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:wall:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
So the Bulls losing and looking terrible early while their fans chant "Kobe" means it's less likely that they'll increase their offer?
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:wall:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
So the Bulls losing and looking terrible early while their fans chant "Kobe" means it's less likely that they'll increase their offer?
GM's usually look past 4 games.
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Funny but not surprised that you fail to mention the Lakers have been without Odom for 4/5 games, and those games have been against Hou, Utah, PHX, and NO.

Maybe I just think it's likely Odom will miss more games... he's a stud in my book and I'm a big fan but he's hardly a guy you can pencil in the starting lineup every night. They'll need to figure out how to win games without him from time to time if they want to crawl up to a #5 seed.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:rolleyes:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
So the Bulls losing and looking terrible early while their fans chant "Kobe" means it's less likely that they'll increase their offer?
GM's usually look past 4 games.
The Bulls next 4 games are on the road at PHX, at the Clippers, the next night at the Lakers, and at Denver. They'll be underdogs in all of those games.
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I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.

I thought you wanted the lakers to keep bryant as long as he was happy and playing hard? I know I do.
I do want the Lakers to keep Kobe if he calms down and changes his tune. Since we have no idea if that's going to happen, I want the Lakers leverage to increase so that they get as much in return for Kobe as possible if a deal is made.Thus far, things couldn't have gone much better for the Lakers thus far - they're winning and look potent, the Bulls look lost and their fans are demanding for Paxson to make a deal.
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Funny but not surprised that you fail to mention the Lakers have been without Odom for 4/5 games, and those games have been against Hou, Utah, PHX, and NO.

Maybe I just think it's likely Odom will miss more games... he's a stud in my book and I'm a big fan but he's hardly a guy you can pencil in the starting lineup every night. They'll need to figure out how to win games without him from time to time if they want to crawl up to a #5 seed.
Agreed. Odom hasn't been an iron man.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:thumbup:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
So the Bulls losing and looking terrible early while their fans chant "Kobe" means it's less likely that they'll increase their offer?
Exactly - I don't think Paxson will make a franchise changing trade because the fans are booing/changint for Kobe. If they continue losing, I'm not saying Paxson won't look to shake things up, but he certainly won't trade 1/2 of his young players for Kobe.
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The vibe hasn't been good in Chicago since the Bulls were involved in Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than two weeks ago. General manager John Paxson put to rest the Kobe Bryant trade rumors less than a week ago, but some fans continued to chant "Kobe! Kobe! Kobe!" while the Bulls were down 30-plus points in the third quarter."Obviously the Kobe chants is something that never seems like it will never stop being talked about. We understand the crowd's frustration. We're very frustrated as well," Hinrich said.Ford thought the chants have been wearing on the Bulls."I'm pretty sure for what it seemed it looked like it kind of affected the guys, but I'm not sure. I'm not in the locker room."

:goodposting:
Why does this please you? Do you think the Bulls are going to increase their offer for Kobe or is it just a general dislike for the Bulls?
I think more losses will increase their offer for Bryant. Their poor start and Deng's awful play thus far only increases the Lakers leverage.
You don't know John Paxson's style - he's very patient, and he loves his young players. He isn't going to trade 4 players for Kobe.
So the Bulls losing and looking terrible early while their fans chant "Kobe" means it's less likely that they'll increase their offer?
GM's usually look past 4 games.
The Bulls next 4 games are on the road at PHX, at the Clippers, the next night at the Lakers, and at Denver. They'll be underdogs in all of those games.
It's very likely that the Bulls, at best, will go 2-4 in their next 6 games (all on the road) which would put them at 3-9 on the season. The Bulls have started slowly the past few seasons so that's probably another reason why Paxson would not make any drastic moves until the Bulls prove that this is more than just a bad start.
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Yep, like we've said before, this has happened in the past so it really isn't a shock. What is shocking is how poorly they have played in their first 6 games. This is, essentially, the same core of players that they have had for the past few years. And while the Bulls haven't had the opportunity to land a player of Kobe's caliber the past few years, I think this opportunity will be very hard for Pax to pass up. But, I don't think he is going to give up more just because they are 1-10 or 3-9 to start the season. We'll see.

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Yep, like we've said before, this has happened in the past so it really isn't a shock. What is shocking is how poorly they have played in their first 6 games. This is, essentially, the same core of players that they have had for the past few years. And while the Bulls haven't had the opportunity to land a player of Kobe's caliber the past few years, I think this opportunity will be very hard for Pax to pass up. But, I don't think he is going to give up more just because they are 1-10 or 3-9 to start the season. We'll see.

:lmao: There's really no excuse for a start this bad when you are a contender in the East, Paxson isn't going to rush into a trade that will cost him 4 players.
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Yep, like we've said before, this has happened in the past so it really isn't a shock. What is shocking is how poorly they have played in their first 6 games. This is, essentially, the same core of players that they have had for the past few years. And while the Bulls haven't had the opportunity to land a player of Kobe's caliber the past few years, I think this opportunity will be very hard for Pax to pass up. But, I don't think he is going to give up more just because they are 1-10 or 3-9 to start the season. We'll see.

:shrug: There's really no excuse for a start this bad when you are a contender in the East, Paxson isn't going to rush into a trade that will cost him 4 players.
Do you think the Bulls poor start and Deng's poor play has increased the Bulls leverage with the Lakers? Decreased it? Or nothing has changed?
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Yep, like we've said before, this has happened in the past so it really isn't a shock. What is shocking is how poorly they have played in their first 6 games. This is, essentially, the same core of players that they have had for the past few years. And while the Bulls haven't had the opportunity to land a player of Kobe's caliber the past few years, I think this opportunity will be very hard for Pax to pass up. But, I don't think he is going to give up more just because they are 1-10 or 3-9 to start the season. We'll see.

:angry: There's really no excuse for a start this bad when you are a contender in the East, Paxson isn't going to rush into a trade that will cost him 4 players.
Do you think the Bulls poor start and Deng's poor play has increased the Bulls leverage with the Lakers? Decreased it? Or nothing has changed?
I think nothing has changed. Five games does not change a player's value, for good or bad. It's just to early for either team to back off their demands.
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Yep, like we've said before, this has happened in the past so it really isn't a shock. What is shocking is how poorly they have played in their first 6 games. This is, essentially, the same core of players that they have had for the past few years. And while the Bulls haven't had the opportunity to land a player of Kobe's caliber the past few years, I think this opportunity will be very hard for Pax to pass up. But, I don't think he is going to give up more just because they are 1-10 or 3-9 to start the season. We'll see.

:goodposting: There's really no excuse for a start this bad when you are a contender in the East, Paxson isn't going to rush into a trade that will cost him 4 players.
Do you think the Bulls poor start and Deng's poor play has increased the Bulls leverage with the Lakers? Decreased it? Or nothing has changed?
I think nothing has changed. Five games does not change a player's value, for good or bad. It's just to early for either team to back off their demands.
Absolutely nothing has changed. I would hope a GM wouldn't value a player based on a 5-6 game sample size.
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There is no way the Bulls will trade for Kobe if they continue to play poorly*. Here are the reasons (please be aware I am assuming a trade would be considered after December 15 when Nocioni and Joe Smith are available):

1. Bulls pieces don't look as good to Lakers. Deng isn't looking like an All-Star. Gordon's ball handling and defense have not improved. Nocioni looks slower and hasn't shot well. Hinrich has been terrible. I believe the Bulls hoped to pull off a trade for Kobe using Gordon, Nocioni and Tyrus Thomas plus, obviously, filler. The Lakers aren't going to take that. It would take something like Deng, Gordon or Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas and filler. Regretably for the Bulls, "filler" would probably have to include Joe Smith and/or Duhon to get salaries close enough. I don't think the Lakers would want Nocioni's long term contract.

2. Bulls complementary pieces. If the Bulls traded for Kobe, there wouldn't be much left. Ben Wallace is losing (or has lost?) his ability to change games on his defense alone. A Gordon/Hinrich, Kobe, Nocioni, PF?, Wallace starting lineup does not look good. The bench would also be nearly bare. Thabo Sefolosha doesn't look to be able to provide anything other than turnovers and line-drive shots off the rim. Kobe would be double-teamed constantly.

3. Conservative nature of Paxson and Reinsdorf. I don't recall his precise words, but I remember a telling comment by Paxson after the failed Gasol negotiations. He said that he had to be extremely careful to make a trade that would eliminate options of future changes. A trade for Gasol (or Kobe) would wipe out the Bulls tradable assets and financial flexibility. Thus, if the new team continued to struggle, there would be no way out. If they became mediocre, it would be difficult to improve. Also, Reinsdorf will not allow salaries to go into luxury tax territory unless the team is a clear winner. Kobe's increasing salary makes it difficult to remain under this threshold.

4. A Kobe change of mind? Kobe's no-trade clause is huge. If the Bulls continue to be a mess, why would he want any part of it?

* For the record, I believe Deng, Gordon and Hinrich will turn it around. The Bulls may still be a top 4 team in the East. The reason I'm making the assumption the Bulls will continue struggling in this post is to point out the ramifications to the Laker fans who are cheering the Bulls losses and for the sentiment of Bulls fans that leads to chanting Kobe's name during losses.

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the season JUST STARTED. I dont think the Bulls or any other team is in any type of panic mode. The Bulls' recent play has no impact on what they would or would not offer for Kobe. If Lakers are willing to take on Deng, Gordon, Thomas/Noah (not both) and Wallace/Brown then the Bulls should do it. How would Odom and Deng co-exist though - use Odom at the 4?

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Tex To Kobe: The Lakers Are Where You Belong

Back in the good old days, when he was remarkably mistake free, I used to marvel at Kobe Bryant. How could he be so young and make such good decisions?

I posed that question and he launched into an answer without hesitation: It’s not that you don’t make mistakes, he said. It’s just that you must be very careful, once you make a mistake, not to follow one bad decision with more bad decisions.

The secret, he said, was not to compound your problems.

Obviously, Bryant was quoting someone else’s wisdom, because once he began making those big nasty mistakes that tend to define your life, he began showing a particular talent for compounding them.

Well, it’s time for all that to stop, Tex Winter told me in a recent phone conversation.

It’s time for Bryant to realize that being a Los Angeles Laker is the best possible situation for him, time for him to stop pushing for a trade, offered Winter, who over the years has been a mentor to both Lakers coach Phil Jackson and to Bryant himself.

“He should just play basketball where he is,” Winter said. “Los Angeles is a good spot for Kobe.”

Winter has expressed admiration for the Chicago Bulls and their talented young roster, but he never saw Bryant as a good fit there. “Frankly, I’m not sure how much he’d be able to help that club,” Winter said.

Winter, of course, is the man who innovated the triangle offense, then nurtured a young assistant named Phil Jackson into a triangle coach (he did much of that nurturing coaching with Phil years ago in the L.A. summer league). Jackson and Winter watched Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen mature into forces in the triangle that won six NBA championships. Then they came to Los Angeles and won three more titles by using the triangle to focus the effectiveness of Bryant and center Shaquille O’Neal.

Winter is now 85 and wracked by the pain of shingles in his chest, but he retains a high enthusiasm for the system of play he has spent decades developing. It remains a dandy offense, Winter says unabashedly. “We’ve used it so long, that concept. Gosh, look at how many years we’ve relied on that triangle, and the success we’ve had with it.” Bryant is simply the best triangle player, born for it, with his mix of physical ability, smarts and work ethic.

“And he knows it,” Winter said. “I wish he would concentrate on playing the game and making his teammates better and not worry about all this other stuff.”

In quiet, low-key ways, Bryant has perhaps moved into the mode that Winter hopes he’ll take. He had effusive praise this week for the work ethic of Andrew Bynum, the young Lakers center who just months ago Bryant had targeted as trade bait.

And Bryant has certainly played within the offense and in tune with his teammates in the early going this season.

“He’s trying to do what’s right,” Winter said of Bryant. “He’s certainly working at it. Defensively he’s improved. He’s trying to get better at off-the-ball defense. He’s always been very good as an on-ball defender.”

And Bryant certainly retains his titanium grade confidence, Winter said with a chuckle. “He hasn’t shot the ball well yet, but that’s not a concern with Kobe. He’s not concerned about anything as far as his play is concerned. He thinks he’s fine, thinks he’s the greatest. Phil has made that remark to him, trying to point out things about his game. But Kobe doesn’t worry. He’s something. He’s got tremendous confidence. That confidence is a key part of who he is.”

So, what is the key for Bryant and this young Lakers team in terms of becoming one of those great triangle teams? As always, it’s execution.

And execution also follows the familiar path: Fundamentals, and more fundamentals. That’s why Jordan and Pippen were so dedicated to working on all the little things in each Bulls practice, passing, cutting, running through the numerous drills that Winter has devised over the years for making players into effective triangle components.

It also means the Lakers need to take on more of a retro Bulls look.

“Remember all the third cutter looks we used to get with Horace Grant?” Winter asked. “Or what about the baseline cuts we used to get with Pippen and Jordan?”

The recent Lakers teams have gotten those passes every once in a while, but the key is their big men, Winter said. “Their game is not passing; it’s trying to score.”

Whereas the Bulls’ centers were great at finding a Jordan or a Pippen along the baseline, the Lakers centers haven’t shown great effectiveness there. The one center who has potential as a passer is the young Bynum, Winter said. “He does the best job of the three at seeing the cutter. The centers have to recognize that if the cutter’s not open, someone else will be. They need to get the ball back out and keep the offense moving.”

Like Bryant, Winter has been a critic of Bynum. And like Bryant, Winter is starting to see positive signs from the young guy. The key to Bynum’s improvement, Winter said, is learning to hold his position down on the block. “That’s one of his weaknesses, as big as he is. He’s inclined to get moved off the block too easily. Because he doesn’t hold his position as well on the block, teams don’t front him very much. They play behind him and force him out.”

As he learns to hold his position better, he’ll present more of a problem for defenses. As his passing improves, he’ll compound those problems for opponents.

The Lakers’ potential to reach the next level lies with Bynum’s work ethic and determination.

If Bryant stops and thinks about it, he’s actually much closer to getting the competitive team he wants in Los Angeles than he would be anywhere else, Winter says.

Bryant may have his faults, but lack of logic usually isn’t one of them. Perhaps that helps explain why he’s quietly moving back within the team and in the process slowly repairing the relationships around him.

Winter, meanwhile, watches many many basketball games a day from his Oregon home. The basketball helps take his mind off the pain of the shingles. He went to Lakers training camp in Hawaii this season, but he says the pain was so great that he wasn’t of any use to the team.

He’s scheduled to come to Los Angeles this week to serve in his regular role as a consultant to Jackson. That, of course, will depend on how the shingles are treating him. It goes without saying that Bryant’s recent play has gone a long way toward easing Winter’s pain.

Like many Lakers fans, the veteran coach is hoping the relief will be long-term.

Roland Lazenby is the author of “The Show, The Inside Story Of The Spectacular Los Angeles Lakers In The Words Of Those Who Lived It.”

http://www.sportshubla.com/2007/11/10/tex-...ere-you-belong/

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  • 4 weeks later...

well the bulls are 5-11 and the Lakers are 11-8. the bulls lost a lot of leverage. if a deal were to be made later on they dont have the same bargaining position.

to bad the bulls were overvaluing their players, which lead to this deal not happening, i think they would have been better off with the trade.

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well the bulls are 5-11 and the Lakers are 11-8. the bulls lost a lot of leverage. if a deal were to be made later on they dont have the same bargaining position.

to bad the bulls were overvaluing their players, which lead to this deal not happening, i think they would have been better off with the trade.

:(

Years from now we'll look back in disbelief that Luol Deng held up the deal.

Luol Deng.

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I think it worked out perfectly for everyone.

CHI fans should be happy. Right now the way CHI is playing I don't think bryant would make them a contender for the title so it would have been a mistake to sink their entire salary cap into a player that will be 30 before next season.

The laker fans seem to be happy with the #7 seed in the west(and all the bargaining position that comes with that, I guess).

And lastly laker haters might be the most happy of all.

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well the bulls are 5-11 and the Lakers are 11-8. the bulls lost a lot of leverage. if a deal were to be made later on they dont have the same bargaining position.

to bad the bulls were overvaluing their players, which lead to this deal not happening, i think they would have been better off with the trade.

:wub:

Years from now we'll look back in disbelief that Luol Deng held up the deal.

Luol Deng.

I prefer to think years from now we'll look back and think about how lucky we were to be alive at such a wonderful time in history. Rejoice, gunz. And may your Lakers make the playoffs in full flourish.
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well the bulls are 5-11 and the Lakers are 11-8. the bulls lost a lot of leverage. if a deal were to be made later on they dont have the same bargaining position.

to bad the bulls were overvaluing their players, which lead to this deal not happening, i think they would have been better off with the trade.

:thumbup:

Years from now we'll look back in disbelief that Luol Deng held up the deal.

Luol Deng.

However we look at it, it will be with tenderness and compassion. These are real people we're talking about here. Think about all the families that would have been uprooted in a trade of this magnitude.
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It doesn't matter whether Kobe stays or goes.

In Laker history, there is always a gap between champion runs, and we're in it. Jerry West played for a long stretch, and the Lakers contended every year. Then he retired, and 8 years went by before Magic came, which led to another long championship run. Then Magic left, and another 8 mediocre years went by, until Shaq came, and the Lake show was in contention again.

Now Shaq is gone, and we're in the mediocre time again. The next champion run will probably be in 4-5 years, featuring nobody we recognize now on the team (with the possible exception of the young center.) Kobe won't be a part of it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

If anyone watched the TNT preview show it was broken down by DA and Magic(VP of the Lakers)

No Deng, no deal...Lakers wont trade Kobe and not get the other teams best player. made the mistake with Shaq and wont let that happen again.

Lakers and Pacers are talking Jermaine Oneal again

If the Bulls dont trade Deng,Gordon,and Ty Thomas there will be no deal(fyi, i wouldnt do it if i were the bulls)

Pacers are still demanding Bynum and Odom for JO.

Prediction:

Bulls say no to what the Lakers are offering...Lakers say no to what the Bulls are offering

Jerry Buss steps in and agrees to trade Bynum (his sons pet project) and the Pacers agree to other players besides Odom. Something like Drew,Kwame,Farmar or J Critt,and future 1st

Thank You Mitch for not listening to most Laker fans and sending Bynum out for JO or Kidd.

Man looking back at this thread, the Lakers have come a long way since the offseason.

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Man looking back at this thread, the Lakers have come a long way since the offseason.

Yep, before the season they were expected to be the #7 seed in the west. Right now they are tied for the #6 seed.
Whether they end up catching Phoenix or otherwise moving up in seeding, they HAVE come a long ways since the offseason. Before the season started noone expected them to even have a chance to get past the first round. Right now, even if they were the #6 seed, they'd have a good chance of advancing. They're one of the best teams in the West.
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