Jump to content
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Mortgage Rates


MechEng

Recommended Posts

Requesting info on timing things.We're planning an out-of-state move in June (to MN). When, typically, should we begin house-hunting (in earnest, we're currently just looking casually), mortgage-hunting (including locking in a rate), etc? TIA

What the hell? You're leaving?Wuss.
Well, if you'd quit closing the drapes and let a guy get a look at your wife's new ha-ha's (was that the final decided-upon term to use for that thread - "ha-ha's"? :) ), maybe I'd stay! :thumbup:Meh, wise men do stupid things for a love of a woman. :confused: (my wife has had enough of the heat here, and so we'll be moving to a place so cold that my boys will be migrating somewhere north of my pancreas for several months out of the year :thumbup: )
Sorry for the hijack here, so I'll make it quick.My wife is sick of the heat too, and we'd be moving if not for the biz. So we are stuck here for awhile longer.Good luck up there!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the rate drops, would it be time to refinance the following?

We have currently a $550,000 fixed 30 year at 6.375%

What are the typical costs to refinance?

Thanks!

You should check into it but a lot will depend on what kind of second you get. It won't do you any good to refinance into another jumbo loan but if you do a first at $417,000 you should be able to drop at least a point without paying a point but your second is going to be higher than were you are at. I suspect your blended rate will improve even with the higher second but I don't know what kind of closing costs you would endure. Lender fee's vary depending on who you go with. Appraisals usually run between $325-450. Not sure on title fees as I don't do business in DC but according to a chart I have from a national title company I use you should be looking at around $1800 in title but I could be wrong on that.

One thing to know. Despite the rate drop the secondary market for non-government backed loans remains soft. Investors are just not buying them. Flagstar Bank which bills itself as I think the 6th or 7th largest bank in the US actually discontinued all Jumbo loans on Friday and several other non-government backed loans. This means that while rates for Fannie and Freddie loans is great that rates for loans that are not government backed have had almost no change. This is why rates for jumbo loans and seconds remains fairly high.

Either you are misunderstanding something, they are being very creative in what 'largest' means, they are owned by a much larger bank (which I am not aware of) or they are flat out lieing. Not nearly even close to a top 10 bank. I would be surprised if they broke into the top 50.

Beyond that to DanFouts, yes, it is worth you looking into a re-fi but as has been pointed out you would be looking at jumbo and that means you will not get the same rates as others have been talking about. It will also be a little harder for you to get approved but if you have good credit you should not worry about it much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[

Either you are misunderstanding something, they are being very creative in what 'largest' means, they are owned by a much larger bank (which I am not aware of) or they are flat out lieing. Not nearly even close to a top 10 bank. I would be surprised if they broke into the top 50.

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

Rates already went down this morning on anticipation of the Fed rate cut so it's already happening.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck.... extreme heat to extreme cold.... you could not talk your way out of that one? Not sure if your q's were answered but I would say first get a pre-approval to know what you can get with what, then start looking in hard when you are serious about moving, you find the house etc then you get the full mortgage and lock in etc is worked out with the loan rep.

Well, I knew going in (when we started dating 14yrs ago) that she eventually wanted to move back that way (originally from Racine WI), so it's no biggie. :thumbdown: Over the years, as we vacationed in different places, the scope broadened and we also looked at the South. Her best friend from childhood moved to ND last year, so MN became the central point between her friend in ND and family in WI. I've lived here all my life, so it's probably time for a change. lol I'm thinking I'll enjoy the not-so-hot MN summers more than not-so-cold AZ winters. Not-so-cold is still cold, but warm/hot >>>>> freakin' hot. It'll turn things topsyturvy for a while, mainly with the kids, but I think it'll all work out.Anyhow, regarding my question, I'm looking for a time table of sorts. Would it be prudent to lock in a rate/get pre-approved now, or in a couple of months when it's closer to our move? What sort of time frame should we be looking at for lock/pre-approve/house-hunt/full mortgage/close? The last time we moved was almost ten years ago, so my memory has faded a bit. lol Tho, it seems like it took a good 3-4months, but then again, our mortgage broker was an idiot (never returned calls, closing was pushed back due to her needing more time, etc). If I say I want to be in a new house by June 30, I'm looking for answers to my question in the form of "lock in a rate by <month> <day>", etc. Thx.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck.... extreme heat to extreme cold.... you could not talk your way out of that one? Not sure if your q's were answered but I would say first get a pre-approval to know what you can get with what, then start looking in hard when you are serious about moving, you find the house etc then you get the full mortgage and lock in etc is worked out with the loan rep.

Well, I knew going in (when we started dating 14yrs ago) that she eventually wanted to move back that way (originally from Racine WI), so it's no biggie. :thumbdown: Over the years, as we vacationed in different places, the scope broadened and we also looked at the South. Her best friend from childhood moved to ND last year, so MN became the central point between her friend in ND and family in WI. I've lived here all my life, so it's probably time for a change. lol I'm thinking I'll enjoy the not-so-hot MN summers more than not-so-cold AZ winters. Not-so-cold is still cold, but warm/hot >>>>> freakin' hot. It'll turn things topsyturvy for a while, mainly with the kids, but I think it'll all work out.Anyhow, regarding my question, I'm looking for a time table of sorts. Would it be prudent to lock in a rate/get pre-approved now, or in a couple of months when it's closer to our move? What sort of time frame should we be looking at for lock/pre-approve/house-hunt/full mortgage/close? The last time we moved was almost ten years ago, so my memory has faded a bit. lol Tho, it seems like it took a good 3-4months, but then again, our mortgage broker was an idiot (never returned calls, closing was pushed back due to her needing more time, etc). If I say I want to be in a new house by June 30, I'm looking for answers to my question in the form of "lock in a rate by <month> <day>", etc. Thx.
90 day locks are usually as long as you can lock without incurring an upfront fee but not everyone you talk to will do a 90 day rate lock.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

While I agree that the Fed rate drop is more about short term rates, you aren't quite correct on the 2003 scenario. Go to bankrate.com and look at the 30 year fixed rate over the past 5 years and you see a huge trough in summer of 2003. I refi'd my last house at 4.875% with 0 points on a 30 year fixed that summer. I would love, love, love to see it hit that again as I will refi in a heartbeat since I am at 5.75% now, so 5.5 or 5.375 with closing costs isn't quite worth it yet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

Rates already went down this morning on anticipation of the Fed rate cut so it's already happening.
Rates fluctuate on a daily basis.

The Fed moves help more than anything and the mortgage rates do tend to move in sympathy but they are not locked into one another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.
I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

Rates already went down this morning on anticipation of the Fed rate cut so it's already happening.
Rates fluctuate on a daily basis.

The Fed moves help more than anything and the mortgage rates do tend to move in sympathy but they are not locked into one another.

Again you are wrong. The rate drop today is in relation to the Fed rate drops. Rates don't drop the day the Fed announces rates but they drop when the market anticipates a rate drop which is what is happening right now.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck.... extreme heat to extreme cold.... you could not talk your way out of that one? Not sure if your q's were answered but I would say first get a pre-approval to know what you can get with what, then start looking in hard when you are serious about moving, you find the house etc then you get the full mortgage and lock in etc is worked out with the loan rep.

Well, I knew going in (when we started dating 14yrs ago) that she eventually wanted to move back that way (originally from Racine WI), so it's no biggie. :popcorn: Over the years, as we vacationed in different places, the scope broadened and we also looked at the South. Her best friend from childhood moved to ND last year, so MN became the central point between her friend in ND and family in WI. I've lived here all my life, so it's probably time for a change. lol I'm thinking I'll enjoy the not-so-hot MN summers more than not-so-cold AZ winters. Not-so-cold is still cold, but warm/hot >>>>> freakin' hot. It'll turn things topsyturvy for a while, mainly with the kids, but I think it'll all work out.Anyhow, regarding my question, I'm looking for a time table of sorts. Would it be prudent to lock in a rate/get pre-approved now, or in a couple of months when it's closer to our move? What sort of time frame should we be looking at for lock/pre-approve/house-hunt/full mortgage/close? The last time we moved was almost ten years ago, so my memory has faded a bit. lol Tho, it seems like it took a good 3-4months, but then again, our mortgage broker was an idiot (never returned calls, closing was pushed back due to her needing more time, etc). If I say I want to be in a new house by June 30, I'm looking for answers to my question in the form of "lock in a rate by <month> <day>", etc. Thx.
Speaking as a So Cal guy in Chicago..... :nerd: Moving on: I think it is more fluid a situaiton than to say X month to X date of expected move. Pre-approvals have a certain amount of shelf life and off the top of my head I do not remember the average time. Basically, I would say you get the pre-approval when you are serious about looking. For a long distance move like this, I would get serious about looking about 6 months out of when I expect to move. When you have the house picked out then you get the application rolling but then the question is if you float or not. That is really something that you figure out then and there and not months ahead. You have to take a look at the enviroment and what you are comfortable with. Hope that helps even though I am not giving you exact timelines.It looks like I may end up working at Wells Fargo doing mortgages soon, if I do I will be able to lend nationally and if you wanted I could work with you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.
I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.
:confused: You are killing me. We went from 5-7 largest bank to 5-7 largest lender to 5-7 largest wholesale lender. That specific of data is hard to find- I did a quick google but I decided I do not care to put more effort into it. I will give you that I did come across a mortgage production list from 2006 that ranked Flagstar 39th. Better than I expected.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

Rates already went down this morning on anticipation of the Fed rate cut so it's already happening.
Rates fluctuate on a daily basis.

The Fed moves help more than anything and the mortgage rates do tend to move in sympathy but they are not locked into one another.

Again you are wrong. The rate drop today is in relation to the Fed rate drops. Rates don't drop the day the Fed announces rates but they drop when the market anticipates a rate drop which is what is happening right now.
I do not think you understand what the word sympathy means.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard on a financial show last nite that they predicted the feds to cut another half percent by next week.

Two thoughts...

One is that would be interesting because that puts the Fed in a position of almost being out of bullets to do much more in the future if needed.

Second, I have stated this over and over but the Fed and mortgage rates do not walk hand in hand. The chances of mortgage rates going down is not overwhelming. For instance, June 25, 2003 the Fed Rate was at 1.00 and it is currently at 3.5 but from memory mortgage rates are actually offered lower now than then. In all honesty this is a way for loan officers and brokers to use the news coverage of the Fed to get business from excited customers. It is a good time to look at your options to re-fi if you have a loan over 6% right now because rates are at historically very low levels, I would not get too excited about looking for very much lower- possible of course but not extremely likely.

While I agree that the Fed rate drop is more about short term rates, you aren't quite correct on the 2003 scenario. Go to bankrate.com and look at the 30 year fixed rate over the past 5 years and you see a huge trough in summer of 2003. I refi'd my last house at 4.875% with 0 points on a 30 year fixed that summer. I would love, love, love to see it hit that again as I will refi in a heartbeat since I am at 5.75% now, so 5.5 or 5.375 with closing costs isn't quite worth it yet.
Their graph actually goes to what I am saying. Notice that rates went up to over 6% while the Fed was still at 1.00. Mortgage rates fluctuate and the short term rates helps pressure mortgage rates down but they certainly are not locked into one another and a Fed move does not mean that mortgage rates will go down. It does make it more likely to be sure but the mortgage rates are much more strongly tied into bonds.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.
I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.
:unsure: You are killing me. We went from 5-7 largest bank to 5-7 largest lender to 5-7 largest wholesale lender. That specific of data is hard to find- I did a quick google but I decided I do not care to put more effort into it. I will give you that I did come across a mortgage production list from 2006 that ranked Flagstar 39th. Better than I expected.
Look, I'm not trying to boast but I'm an expert in this field and you clearly are not. I never deviated from a thing but you don't know enough about this business to know that you are considered the lender if you are wholesale or retail. But listen, if you are so sure of yourself why don't you contact Flagstar and threaten to sue them for the false advertising they have been doing for several years that only you were able to uncover because you did a google search.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

90 day locks are usually as long as you can lock without incurring an upfront fee but not everyone you talk to will do a 90 day rate lock.

Moving on: I think it is more fluid a situaiton than to say X month to X date of expected move. Pre-approvals have a certain amount of shelf life and off the top of my head I do not remember the average time. Basically, I would say you get the pre-approval when you are serious about looking. For a long distance move like this, I would get serious about looking about 6 months out of when I expect to move. When you have the house picked out then you get the application rolling but then the question is if you float or not. That is really something that you figure out then and there and not months ahead. You have to take a look at the enviroment and what you are comfortable with. Hope that helps even though I am not giving you exact timelines.It looks like I may end up working at Wells Fargo doing mortgages soon, if I do I will be able to lend nationally and if you wanted I could work with you.

Thanks for the info.We're planning to head up that way for the first two weeks of March, to start the job/house hunting process a little more in earnest. So, that seems to fit in with the timelines mentioned. Perhaps by then, rates and this week's market bloodbath will have settled down.I'll keep you in mind, Chad. Do you have any references, other than being an FBG? :blackdot: j/k
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.

I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.

:thumbdown: You are killing me. We went from 5-7 largest bank to 5-7 largest lender to 5-7 largest wholesale lender. That specific of data is hard to find- I did a quick google but I decided I do not care to put more effort into it. I will give you that I did come across a mortgage production list from 2006 that ranked Flagstar 39th. Better than I expected.
Look, I'm not trying to boast but I'm an expert in this field and you clearly are not. I never deviated from a thing but you don't know enough about this business to know that you are considered the lender if you are wholesale or retail. But listen, if you are so sure of yourself why don't you contact Flagstar and threaten to sue them for the false advertising they have been doing for several years that only you were able to uncover because you did a google search.

You should check into it but a lot will depend on what kind of second you get. It won't do you any good to refinance into another jumbo loan but if you do a first at $417,000 you should be able to drop at least a point without paying a point but your second is going to be higher than were you are at. I suspect your blended rate will improve even with the higher second but I don't know what kind of closing costs you would endure. Lender fee's vary depending on who you go with. Appraisals usually run between $325-450. Not sure on title fees as I don't do business in DC but according to a chart I have from a national title company I use you should be looking at around $1800 in title but I could be wrong on that.

One thing to know. Despite the rate drop the secondary market for non-government backed loans remains soft. Investors are just not buying them. Flagstar Bank which bills itself as I think the 6th or 7th largest bank in the US actually discontinued all Jumbo loans on Friday and several other non-government backed loans. This means that while rates for Fannie and Freddie loans is great that rates for loans that are not government backed have had almost no change. This is why rates for jumbo loans and seconds remains fairly high.

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.

You should have said it is a large wholesale player in lending. I am doubtful of them being a top 10 lender even within solely wholesale operations but I will concede that to you.

Your overall point of the original post was accurate, a number of players have exited wholesale lending, sub-prime lending, or mortgage lending completely. A number of lenders have gone out of business, been bought out, or gone into bankruptcy. Anyone still in the game had tightened underwriting in general and this would include no longer doing jumbo loans and no longer doing loans that are not FHA or VA.

If you want to :lmao: over the fact that I simply pointed out that you were wrong in saying Flagstar was a 5-7 largest bank and then you revised it to 5-7 lender of which I pointed out again that that was not accurate. Perhaps they are a 5-7 wholesale lender- I do not care to look for data that would disprove this or affirm it because it is such a niche that that data would be hard to find. But then again, I clearly have no idea of what I speak of. You are the expert so please feel free to teach me, that is, if you are willing to lower yourself to my sub-standard level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

90 day locks are usually as long as you can lock without incurring an upfront fee but not everyone you talk to will do a 90 day rate lock.

Moving on: I think it is more fluid a situaiton than to say X month to X date of expected move. Pre-approvals have a certain amount of shelf life and off the top of my head I do not remember the average time. Basically, I would say you get the pre-approval when you are serious about looking. For a long distance move like this, I would get serious about looking about 6 months out of when I expect to move. When you have the house picked out then you get the application rolling but then the question is if you float or not. That is really something that you figure out then and there and not months ahead. You have to take a look at the enviroment and what you are comfortable with. Hope that helps even though I am not giving you exact timelines.It looks like I may end up working at Wells Fargo doing mortgages soon, if I do I will be able to lend nationally and if you wanted I could work with you.

Thanks for the info.We're planning to head up that way for the first two weeks of March, to start the job/house hunting process a little more in earnest. So, that seems to fit in with the timelines mentioned. Perhaps by then, rates and this week's market bloodbath will have settled down.I'll keep you in mind, Chad. Do you have any references, other than being an FBG? :thumbdown: j/k
Apparently, I do not know what I am speaking of so you may not want to use me if I do end up working with Wells. :lmao:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

Yea, that does not sound right either. I did some searching and this data is hard to find but I did get solid numbers from Q3 2006 of top 10 originators, servicers, etc. Flagstar does not show up on any of those with the exception of "subservicer" where they rank 8th. This is close to what I was suspecting where they get creative in what they actually are and saying '7th largest lender'. Flagstar is a small fish, very small. They are not a top lender.

I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.

:lmao: You are killing me. We went from 5-7 largest bank to 5-7 largest lender to 5-7 largest wholesale lender. That specific of data is hard to find- I did a quick google but I decided I do not care to put more effort into it. I will give you that I did come across a mortgage production list from 2006 that ranked Flagstar 39th. Better than I expected.
Look, I'm not trying to boast but I'm an expert in this field and you clearly are not. I never deviated from a thing but you don't know enough about this business to know that you are considered the lender if you are wholesale or retail. But listen, if you are so sure of yourself why don't you contact Flagstar and threaten to sue them for the false advertising they have been doing for several years that only you were able to uncover because you did a google search.

You should check into it but a lot will depend on what kind of second you get. It won't do you any good to refinance into another jumbo loan but if you do a first at $417,000 you should be able to drop at least a point without paying a point but your second is going to be higher than were you are at. I suspect your blended rate will improve even with the higher second but I don't know what kind of closing costs you would endure. Lender fee's vary depending on who you go with. Appraisals usually run between $325-450. Not sure on title fees as I don't do business in DC but according to a chart I have from a national title company I use you should be looking at around $1800 in title but I could be wrong on that.

One thing to know. Despite the rate drop the secondary market for non-government backed loans remains soft. Investors are just not buying them. Flagstar Bank which bills itself as I think the 6th or 7th largest bank in the US actually discontinued all Jumbo loans on Friday and several other non-government backed loans. This means that while rates for Fannie and Freddie loans is great that rates for loans that are not government backed have had almost no change. This is why rates for jumbo loans and seconds remains fairly high.

I erred and should have said 7th largest lender, not the 7th largest bank. Over the past few years I've seen them range from 5th-7th in largest US lenders and no one else owns them so they are fairly large.

I'm sorry but you are not correct and Flagstar has consistently fit the definition of a lender and for the past 5 years at least has consistently been a top 5-7 lender. They are staple of most mortgage brokers so they don't do a lot of retail but they do a ton of wholesale lending.

You should have said it is a large wholesale player in lending. I am doubtful of them being a top 10 lender even within solely wholesale operations but I will concede that to you.

Your overall point of the original post was accurate, a number of players have exited wholesale lending, sub-prime lending, or mortgage lending completely. A number of lenders have gone out of business, been bought out, or gone into bankruptcy. Anyone still in the game had tightened underwriting in general and this would include no longer doing jumbo loans and no longer doing loans that are not FHA or VA.

If you want to :boxing: over the fact that I simply pointed out that you were wrong in saying Flagstar was a 5-7 largest bank and then you revised it to 5-7 lender of which I pointed out again that that was not accurate. Perhaps they are a 5-7 wholesale lender- I do not care to look for data that would disprove this or affirm it because it is such a niche that that data would be hard to find. But then again, I clearly have no idea of what I speak of. You are the expert so please feel free to teach me, that is, if you are willing to lower yourself to my sub-standard level.

I tried.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a point to Flagstar wholsale, they are not even in my top 3 lenders because they are consitantly .25% higher in their rates.

Here's a tip for you all that might have refinanced before and are now looking to do it again. Inquire about a no closing cost refinance where the mortgage broker or company pays the closing costs (does not roll it back on your loan). The mortgage broker increases the interest rate to cover your closing costs. Let's say today you looking at a 30 yr fixed at 5.25% on a 200K + loan amount the mortgage broker might push the rate to say 5.875% and pay your closing costs. Benefits to this is your not paying the 3K+ closing costs or adding that to you new loan amount, thus you start saving from day one with no recapture period. Let's say rates keep dropping you can do the same thing again (in most cases). I have done this for many of my clients over the years with many doing it multiple times within a year saving .25% each time.

Now is a good time to look at refinancing with rates at near lows. HTH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question. I locked in a couple of weeks ago at 5.625%. (refi) Countrwide's rates are now 5.125% We're scheduled to close on Friday. What are my options here?

Demand a better rate or tell them you will walk away. I assume they made you pay for an upfront fee for the appraisal and you will lose that but it will be worth it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Question. I locked in a couple of weeks ago at 5.625%. (refi) Countrwide's rates are now 5.125% We're scheduled to close on Friday. What are my options here?

Demand a better rate or tell them you will walk away. I assume they made you pay for an upfront fee for the appraisal and you will lose that but it will be worth it.
I haven't paid a dime at this point. We're refinancing with the same company and we just moved in June. Edited by CrossEyed
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a point to Flagstar wholsale, they are not even in my top 3 lenders because they are consitantly .25% higher in their rates.Here's a tip for you all that might have refinanced before and are now looking to do it again. Inquire about a no closing cost refinance where the mortgage broker or company pays the closing costs (does not roll it back on your loan). The mortgage broker increases the interest rate to cover your closing costs. Let's say today you looking at a 30 yr fixed at 5.25% on a 200K + loan amount the mortgage broker might push the rate to say 5.875% and pay your closing costs. Benefits to this is your not paying the 3K+ closing costs or adding that to you new loan amount, thus you start saving from day one with no recapture period. Let's say rates keep dropping you can do the same thing again (in most cases). I have done this for many of my clients over the years with many doing it multiple times within a year saving .25% each time.Now is a good time to look at refinancing with rates at near lows. HTH

:boxing:
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a point to Flagstar wholsale, they are not even in my top 3 lenders because they are consitantly .25% higher in their rates.Here's a tip for you all that might have refinanced before and are now looking to do it again. Inquire about a no closing cost refinance where the mortgage broker or company pays the closing costs (does not roll it back on your loan). The mortgage broker increases the interest rate to cover your closing costs. Let's say today you looking at a 30 yr fixed at 5.25% on a 200K + loan amount the mortgage broker might push the rate to say 5.875% and pay your closing costs. Benefits to this is your not paying the 3K+ closing costs or adding that to you new loan amount, thus you start saving from day one with no recapture period. Let's say rates keep dropping you can do the same thing again (in most cases). I have done this for many of my clients over the years with many doing it multiple times within a year saving .25% each time.Now is a good time to look at refinancing with rates at near lows. HTH

Our company used a price and product search that scans most lenders and provides the top rate info. Flagstar is not someone I like to use but they are usually competitive in their rate and often have the best rate on certain ARM loans. But, not everyone gets the same rates from Flagstar as they have different tiers.I ran what I call a cookie cutter loan on our pricing engine. This is a refinance at 80% of a $200,000 value in Texas, full doc, 700 scores and escrowing for taxes and insurance and here are the top 5 lenders for 30 year mortgages. For those that don't understand the way you read this is the price is the amount of money it take to buy a rate or the revenue a rate generates. So a 4.75% 30 year fixed from Wells Fargo would cost me .239 points. This does not mean you the customer would pay .239 points but that is what I would have to pay to break even. So today, depending on the loan size I might offer that rate at 1.5 points and generate revenue of 1.261 points. On a 5.125 I would offer that with no points as that rate pays me 1.517 points without charging the borrower anything. FWIW I can also do rates but top lenders and Flagstar came in 5th. ****Also, these are not the rates you get when you call these lenders. These are rates available to me when I sell them a sold loan and not the rates you get if you are a customer calling them directly****30 Yr Fixed Full Documentation Lock days: 30BestX LenderRate Lender Price 4.750 Wells Fargo 99.761 4.875 Wells Fargo 100.479 5.000 Wells Fargo 100.9805.125 GMAC 101.517 5.250 GMAC 102.0455.375 GMAC 102.485 5.500 Chase 102.445 I want to add I actually think it's not a good idea to do what you suggest and have the lender increase your rate to cover the closing costs. That's sound strategy when rates are higher and you have a good chance of refinancing that rate at some point but when you get these kind of rates you will probably never refinance these types of rates so you want to obtain the lowest possible. One caveat to that is if you don't plan to be in the home long term than I no fee loan works out great.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do HEL's come into play during a re-fi? Do they have to be paid off and rolled into the new loan? Do they impact the LTV?

Answers:Yes, they do. It depends on the loan program and lender. Not the LTV but the CLTV (Combined Loan to Value).There are a number of routes you can go with this. Depending on LTV/CLTV levels and rates you may want to look into rolling them up but there are other factors like pre-payment penalties etc that you want to look at as well. Also, if you have an Equity Loan vs an Equity Line of Credit you may want to look into re-fi that rate as well. Further some lenders like WaMu, Chase, Charter One/Citizens etc have fixed rate options within a HELOC and you may want to see what your options are with those as well if you have them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do HEL's come into play during a re-fi? Do they have to be paid off and rolled into the new loan? Do they impact the LTV?

You have choices. They count against your total loan to value in the home so they do impact the LTV. Your choices are to roll it into the refinance or most second mortgage lenders will agree to resubordinate their lien which means they fill out a form agreeing to remain in the second lien position when the existing first mortgage lien is replaced. Most second mortgage lenders will do this but it can take a few weeks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do HEL's come into play during a re-fi? Do they have to be paid off and rolled into the new loan? Do they impact the LTV?

You have choices. They count against your total loan to value in the home so they do impact the LTV. Your choices are to roll it into the refinance or most second mortgage lenders will agree to resubordinate their lien which means they fill out a form agreeing to remain in the second lien position when the existing first mortgage lien is replaced. Most second mortgage lenders will do this but it can take a few weeks.
So if I've got a $510k house with a $387k 30yr mortgage at 6% and a $30k 10yr HEL at 6.5%, I can't just re-fi the $387k and leave the HEL alone? I'd rather not roll that $30k in and pay on it an extra 20 years, even if it's at a better rate.And if I did roll it up, wouldn't that put me into PMI territory with a $417k loan on a $510k house?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have to live in your house for any certain period of time before refinancing? We have our first mortgage at 6.125% and a second mortgage (20%) at something really high, like 8.5% or something. Should we jump on doing something now? Since we did no $ down when we bought in April, can we even roll those into one refinance? :mellow:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do HEL's come into play during a re-fi? Do they have to be paid off and rolled into the new loan? Do they impact the LTV?

You have choices. They count against your total loan to value in the home so they do impact the LTV. Your choices are to roll it into the refinance or most second mortgage lenders will agree to resubordinate their lien which means they fill out a form agreeing to remain in the second lien position when the existing first mortgage lien is replaced. Most second mortgage lenders will do this but it can take a few weeks.
So if I've got a $510k house with a $387k 30yr mortgage at 6% and a $30k 10yr HEL at 6.5%, I can't just re-fi the $387k and leave the HEL alone? I'd rather not roll that $30k in and pay on it an extra 20 years, even if it's at a better rate.And if I did roll it up, wouldn't that put me into PMI territory with a $417k loan on a $510k house?
Yes, you can in most cases but it depends on the lenders and programs. Meaning, in general, most allow you to sub the 2nd under the new 1st. Using the numbers you gave you would be just above the 80% and would pay PMI. In short, if you wanted to keep the 2nd as is and re-fi, you should be able to but it is not 100% certain. The best thing to do is sit down with a lender and go over all the different options and put them side by side in what they do for what you are paying, what it costs, improves cash flow vs what makes you 'sleep well at night' etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have to live in your house for any certain period of time before refinancing? We have our first mortgage at 6.125% and a second mortgage (20%) at something really high, like 8.5% or something. Should we jump on doing something now? Since we did no $ down when we bought in April, can we even roll those into one refinance? :X

No time limit on how long you need to be in the home. Now, depending on the lender most will not allow you to use the appraised value until you have been in the home 6 months or a year in a lot of cases. This is important for you if you want to roll in the costs you are going to need equity.The rate you have on the second is not really any better today on a 100% second. As I mentioned earlier rates for seconds have not improved the last few days or months for that matter as they are not government backed and investors are shying away from them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

You might want to shop around. Credit Unions usually are great but when talking mortgages they are not always the best option.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do HEL's come into play during a re-fi? Do they have to be paid off and rolled into the new loan? Do they impact the LTV?

You have choices. They count against your total loan to value in the home so they do impact the LTV. Your choices are to roll it into the refinance or most second mortgage lenders will agree to resubordinate their lien which means they fill out a form agreeing to remain in the second lien position when the existing first mortgage lien is replaced. Most second mortgage lenders will do this but it can take a few weeks.
So if I've got a $510k house with a $387k 30yr mortgage at 6% and a $30k 10yr HEL at 6.5%, I can't just re-fi the $387k and leave the HEL alone? I'd rather not roll that $30k in and pay on it an extra 20 years, even if it's at a better rate.And if I did roll it up, wouldn't that put me into PMI territory with a $417k loan on a $510k house?
The only thing that would keep you from doing this is if your second mortgage holder refused to resubordinate-which is not typical for them to refuse.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
What are the closing cost?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

was talking to a mortgage advisor at chase bank. i currently owe 221 and they're saying the new mortgage amount might be as high as 226-227 ... not sure i understand why. how do the prepaids work?

how much should the loan amount change on a refi if no cash is spent on closing costs or anything else?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Cross eyed- Are you sure about that on CW? On their web page they list rate as low as 5.125% but with an APR of 5.42%. That high of an APR suggest points or a huge lender fee.PIK- If it was me and most people I know they would not do a loan with someone at such a massive rate difference because they "treat me well". A 30 year mortgage is a long time. Friends will come and friends will go while you are still paying on this note. Also let me say they may not be treating you so right. We are paid more when we can get the customer to take a higher rate. Maybe they can offer you better but wont' because they want to make a lot more money. As for how much does it take to close you need to get a Good Faith Estimate. When comparing lenders try not to focus on title fees(unless the lender gets a discount on title fees) and focus on the rate and fees charged by that lender.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Cross eyed- Are you sure about that on CW? On their web page they list rate as low as 5.125% but with an APR of 5.42%. That high of an APR suggest points or a huge lender fee.PIK- If it was me and most people I know they would not do a loan with someone at such a massive rate difference because they "treat me well". A 30 year mortgage is a long time. Friends will come and friends will go while you are still paying on this note. Also let me say they may not be treating you so right. We are paid more when we can get the customer to take a higher rate. Maybe they can offer you better but wont' because they want to make a lot more money. As for how much does it take to close you need to get a Good Faith Estimate. When comparing lenders try not to focus on title fees(unless the lender gets a discount on title fees) and focus on the rate and fees charged by that lender.
Im not going to take it unless its competitive of couse. I am just trying to figure out why its such a big diff and if the gap between the CU and other lenders probably will close a bit. Thoughts on that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Cross eyed- Are you sure about that on CW? On their web page they list rate as low as 5.125% but with an APR of 5.42%. That high of an APR suggest points or a huge lender fee.PIK- If it was me and most people I know they would not do a loan with someone at such a massive rate difference because they "treat me well". A 30 year mortgage is a long time. Friends will come and friends will go while you are still paying on this note. Also let me say they may not be treating you so right. We are paid more when we can get the customer to take a higher rate. Maybe they can offer you better but wont' because they want to make a lot more money. As for how much does it take to close you need to get a Good Faith Estimate. When comparing lenders try not to focus on title fees(unless the lender gets a discount on title fees) and focus on the rate and fees charged by that lender.
Im not going to take it unless its competitive of couse. I am just trying to figure out why its such a big diff and if the gap between the CU and other lenders probably will close a bit. Thoughts on that?
Most of us get the same rate with maybe a little difference. My guess is the reason your CU is so far off is they want a higher profit margin per loan and they won't narrow it unless they think it's going to cost them business. Some people feel more comfortable dealing with major institutions like a CW or Wells Fargo but the truth of the matter is you will almost never get as good of a deal with them as you could if you used a mortgage banker or mortgage broker. I'd shop around. IF CW is really offering a 5.125% with no points and low lender fees that's a good offer.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been reading this thread with lots of great info. I was wondering if someone could give me some advice and whether or not it would make sense to consider a refinance.

We bought a condo in 2005 for roughly 95k or 98k. Current mortgage is 90k at 6.375%. It's current value is probably 130k. This past August, we bought a house and have been renting the condo out with a year lease to our tenants. Since we are renting it, my guess is that we won't qualify to get these lower rates. Is this true? Also would we be limited to 80% of the value or could we borrow more with a 1st and 2nd.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Cross eyed- Are you sure about that on CW? On their web page they list rate as low as 5.125% but with an APR of 5.42%. That high of an APR suggest points or a huge lender fee.PIK- If it was me and most people I know they would not do a loan with someone at such a massive rate difference because they "treat me well". A 30 year mortgage is a long time. Friends will come and friends will go while you are still paying on this note. Also let me say they may not be treating you so right. We are paid more when we can get the customer to take a higher rate. Maybe they can offer you better but wont' because they want to make a lot more money. As for how much does it take to close you need to get a Good Faith Estimate. When comparing lenders try not to focus on title fees(unless the lender gets a discount on title fees) and focus on the rate and fees charged by that lender.
Im not going to take it unless its competitive of couse. I am just trying to figure out why its such a big diff and if the gap between the CU and other lenders probably will close a bit. Thoughts on that?
Most of us get the same rate with maybe a little difference. My guess is the reason your CU is so far off is they want a higher profit margin per loan and they won't narrow it unless they think it's going to cost them business. Some people feel more comfortable dealing with major institutions like a CW or Wells Fargo but the truth of the matter is you will almost never get as good of a deal with them as you could if you used a mortgage banker or mortgage broker. I'd shop around. IF CW is really offering a 5.125% with no points and low lender fees that's a good offer.
Are you in that CW ball park? Do you work RI?I am heading to work and will be back here before midnight. Thanks for the advice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope I have been helpful to some of you but I'm going to have to leave the answers up to some of the other qualified people on this board. I just ran my rates on Bankrate.com and offered the best rates in Texas, GA, CA and Fl and just got swamped.

Good luck to you all. If anyone wants a loan in one of the states I mentioned feel free to contact me and I guarantee I can make you a better offer than you will get from any major lending institution or Bankrate.com but I only do loans for people with good credit and right now I only want to handle those 4 states. Let me stress I'm not here to make money as business is not an issue right now but I'll help you if you need it and I'll also be happy to advise those I can if you feel comfortable with a major lender or are in a state I don't want to service.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope I have been helpful to some of you but I'm going to have to leave the answers up to some of the other qualified people on this board. I just ran my rates on Bankrate.com and offered the best rates in Texas, GA, CA and Fl and just got swamped. Good luck to you all. If anyone wants a loan in one of the states I mentioned feel free to contact me and I guarantee I can make you a better offer than you will get from any major lending institution or Bankrate.com but I only do loans for people with good credit and right now I only want to handle those 4 states. Let me stress I'm not here to make money as business is not an issue right now but I'll help you if you need it and I'll also be happy to advise those I can if you feel comfortable with a major lender or are in a state I don't want to service.

:lmao: Lots of us are thankful for the mortgage discussions on this board.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My Credit Union dropped to 5.75 today. I have 6.25 with around 25 years to go on my 30yr of $120 and I have a 6.99 on another $20 that I will roll in. You guys think I should wait longer or grab the 5.75. It was 6 two days ago.

Countrywide is at 5.125% for a 30 year with no points.
I would like to use my credit union because they treat me very well. I am wondering though if they are just slow to catch up to everyone else. It seems like that will cost me alot of $ if I take the 5.75 over the 5.25 rates I am seeing. It is also costing me about $3000 to close. How much would I have to pay countrywide to close and other fees?
Cross eyed- Are you sure about that on CW? On their web page they list rate as low as 5.125% but with an APR of 5.42%. That high of an APR suggest points or a huge lender fee.

My loan is costing me about $2,000 to close, with over $900 of that being title insurance. There's $300 processing fee and $200 underwriting fee. The rest is stuff like credit report, lien letters, flood cert., title endorsements, etc.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
  • Create New...