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3 hours ago, Vegas Trip said:

Any suggestions for games for 4 (44, 44, 14, 12) during Christmas lockdown?  Would prefer something on the simpler side that doesn't take over 10 minutes to explain.  My max board game attention span is set at about Ticket to Ride / Catan.  I like Machi Koro but unfortunately the rest of them don't like it as much.  I also like games that are fairly simple and you can run through a few pretty quickly.  Otrio, Connect 4, Hearts, Spades, Chess (ok, maybe not that simple).  What do you guys like playing with your families?

Oh Hell is a good one for the family.  It's a card game similar to spades or hearts (i have never played these but that's what I have been told).  There are many variations when it comes to scoring and you can play with as many people as you want so it's adjustable over the holidays if you have people over.  It only takes a standard deck of cards to play.  

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On 12/15/2020 at 8:21 AM, Dr_Zaius said:

That's sad, but I could definitely see it - you come up with a finely tuned, multi-turn plan and then your opponent takes the stone you were counting on, you could be set back multiple rounds and the game is pretty much over.  I love the game, but don't get to play it much as most people find it too stressful.

I like the game but never play it for this reason. I hate games that you can see the winner or what is happening a mile away but still have to play it out to the end and waste everyone's time.

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3 hours ago, madshot31 said:

:lol: I feel ya. My wife is great with games but has been known to flip the board. Both of her parents are highly competitive, impatient, and sore losers. So it just goes straight down the blood lines and more analytical games become an issue. There is a reason why co-op games are the best option usually.

Yeah, the wife likes co-op games a lot (e.g., loves Pandemic), but I'm not a huge fan of them so we play them a bit sparingly.  With competitive games, I've never quite been able to put my finger on why some games she is okay losing and some put her in almost instant rage mode.

56 minutes ago, madshot31 said:

I like the game but never play it for this reason. I hate games that you can see the winner or what is happening a mile away but still have to play it out to the end and waste everyone's time.

This usually doesn't bother me too much (unless it's like Axis and Allies long), but yeah a lot of games suffer from this.  I've definitely felt it with Catan where your numbers don't come up at all early and you go through turn after turn knowing you have no chance of catching up.

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1 hour ago, Gally said:

Oh Hell is a good one for the family.  It's a card game similar to spades or hearts (i have never played these but that's what I have been told).  There are many variations when it comes to scoring and you can play with as many people as you want so it's adjustable over the holidays if you have people over.  It only takes a standard deck of cards to play.  

I think we play this one (with G name "Aw Heck") - 11 points per trick but only if you take the exact amount of tricks you declare (or 5 points for a zero bid).  I like it a lot with 4 but feel it doesn't work very well with more because as you add more people it becomes almost impossible to accurately bid.

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8 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

Yeah, the wife likes co-op games a lot (e.g., loves Pandemic), but I'm not a huge fan of them so we play them a bit sparingly.  With competitive games, I've never quite been able to put my finger on why some games she is okay losing and some put her in almost instant rage mode.

This usually doesn't bother me too much (unless it's like Axis and Allies long), but yeah a lot of games suffer from this.  I've definitely felt it with Catan where your numbers don't come up at all early and you go through turn after turn knowing you have no chance of catching up.

I'm big on co-op games as she is as well. But I find the competitive style games it depends on if there is a form of random chance. If not, it's pretty easy to see if your losing and no way to turn things around unless other people mess up. This is what pisses her off. Funny thing is she likes Catan a lot. Dice games are really good for us. Catan has a few back door win conditions that have been used successful with us so we know there is a chance. Also, bad beats on rolls is always laughed about because usually in our games there is one person who gets jobbed by the dice.

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3 minutes ago, Dr_Zaius said:

I think we play this one (with G name "Aw Heck") - 11 points per trick but only if you take the exact amount of tricks you declare (or 5 points for a zero bid).  I like it a lot with 4 but feel it doesn't work very well with more because as you add more people it becomes almost impossible to accurately bid.

I find the opposite.  Its easier to accurately bid with more players (although you get a lot more 0 and 1 bid).  We score as you do but 10 pts for a correct zero bid and 1 pt per trick if you don't get the exact bid.  I find it really hard with 3 players and think 6 is the ideal number but works with any amount.

 

We also start with max cards, go down to 1 then back up to max.  I have seen it done the opposite too.

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1 hour ago, Westerberg said:

I've never played online before (just against the AI), but I'll give it a shot. How long are the games usually?

Do you have the original (not revised) edition? They no longer sell it through the App Store, but if you have it, you’ll need to download all the available decks (I, K and G).

The games are timed with something like a chess timer. The shortest time is 30 minutes, the max is 45 days. If you’re experienced, the shortest time is no problem, but most people play 7 or 21 days so you don’t have to commit to playing any one sitting. Whatever time you set is the total allowance per player to make their moves. Your timer starts when it’s your turn, and stops when you’ve completed a move, then restarts at your next turn. Multiple days allows the game to be played asynchronously across many time zones.

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3 hours ago, madshot31 said:

I like the game but never play it for this reason. I hate games that you can see the winner or what is happening a mile away but still have to play it out to the end and waste everyone's time.

In Agricola the better player will almost always win, but the cards make it variable enough that you’re almost always in it if you strategy is sound - rarely does one move make or break it, and equally skilled players tend to all be in it until the end.

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2 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

Yeah, the wife likes co-op games a lot (e.g., loves Pandemic), but I'm not a huge fan of them so we play them a bit sparingly.  With competitive games, I've never quite been able to put my finger on why some games she is okay losing and some put her in almost instant rage mode.

This usually doesn't bother me too much (unless it's like Axis and Allies long), but yeah a lot of games suffer from this.  I've definitely felt it with Catan where your numbers don't come up at all early and you go through turn after turn knowing you have no chance of catching up.

Some games have better catch up mechanisms than others. Power grid is one of the best IMO.

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6 hours ago, Gally said:

I find the opposite.  Its easier to accurately bid with more players (although you get a lot more 0 and 1 bid).  We score as you do but 10 pts for a correct zero bid and 1 pt per trick if you don't get the exact bid.  I find it really hard with 3 players and think 6 is the ideal number but works with any amount.

 

We also start with max cards, go down to 1 then back up to max.  I have seen it done the opposite too.

Interesting.  Maybe I'm too used to 4 player so I don't understand how to bid with more.  With more players it just seems like for every suit, someone is short suited so trump gets played on every trick.

4 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Some games have better catch up mechanisms than others. Power grid is one of the best IMO.

Agree on Power Grid, although I've probably only played it 5 or 6 times.  I think it's a bit on the heavy side for the rest of family.  Also, one of the first times we played my wife had more cities connected but I bought up all of the oil and she couldn't power her one plant, which I think soured her on the game.  It's like I never learn.  :bag:

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10 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

I like king domino and carcassonne, but feel like they are better 2-p games. Played Takenoko once, good suggestion and cute theme for kids.

I would compromise and say they work best as a 3 player game, but we still played both of them 4 player the majority of the time. My wife and I did play quite a bit of 2 player Carcassone though years ago.

Carcassone with a few expansions is a decent 4 player. We havent played it for a few years now, but we were playing with double the pieces, ie 2 complete Carcassone games with 2 sets of expansions.

 

We bought Fallout a couple years ago and are yet to play it, it is made by the same team that did the battle star galactica game team which we only played once. Have you played either of those? They both have good reviews but are quite long and complex.

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21 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Yeah, figuring out when to reset the birdfeeder is a little counterintuitive at times, but ultimately the rules are simple.

Yeah, the whole the option vs. the force of the reset is a little clunky.  I don't really have a better idea how that could be managed though.

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11 hours ago, MTskibum said:

.We bought Fallout a couple years ago and are yet to play it, it is made by the same team that did the battle star galactica game team which we only played once. Have you played either of those? They both have good reviews but are quite long and complex.

Never played fallout, but FWIW it’s not rated highly on boardgamegeek.com. And I try to avoid sci-fi themed games, though I am interested in Terraforming Mars.

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29 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Never played fallout, but FWIW it’s not rated highly on boardgamegeek.com. And I try to avoid sci-fi themed games, though I am interested in Terraforming Mars.

I have mars.  It's fun but it's a long one. I prefer stuff to run in the 45-60 min range max.  

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13 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

Interesting.  Maybe I'm too used to 4 player so I don't understand how to bid with more.  With more players it just seems like for every suit, someone is short suited so trump gets played on every trick.

 

With more people it's easier to slough off cards so 0 and 1 bids are easier to get.  Yes people jump on trump when short suited (especially if over bid) but it makes it much easier to hide big cards when short suited also (we play where you do not have to trump if you are short suited - maybe you play where you have to trump if you are short suited which makes it more difficult to hit?)

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1 hour ago, Terminalxylem said:

How long does 3-4p game take? I do OK up to 30/player, but get antsy when there’s a lot of analysis paralysis.

One issue with Mars is the end game is not deterministic.  So a 3-4p game can run up to 2hrs easily, but there are corner cases where it can go +/-30min from there.  

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2 hours ago, Exit 1 said:

Not a board game but Jackbox.tv is awesome if you have a group of 4 or so. It's played through the TV but people use their phones to answer/type/play/etc.

Played it the other day at a buddies house.  It was interesting and entertaining for a bit.  I am not sure how many modules there are before you start repeating some things but it did keep everyone "off" their phones because they had to use the phones to play the game.  

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4 hours ago, Exit 1 said:

Not a board game but Jackbox.tv is awesome if you have a group of 4 or so. It's played through the TV but people use their phones to answer/type/play/etc.

 

I own most or maybe all of the Jackbox party packs, most of them are pretty bad.  I would just recommend the below two party packs.

 

Trivia Murder Party in Jackbox party pack 6

Fibbage and Drawful in Jackbox party pack 1

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MTskibum said:

 

I own most or maybe all of the Jackbox party packs, most of them are pretty bad.  I would just recommend the below two party packs.

 

Trivia Murder Party in Jackbox party pack 6

Fibbage and Drawful in Jackbox party pack 1

 

 

In JackBox3, I like Trivia Murder Party and Quibbage if it's a larger, raunchier group. Guesspionage is fun too.

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9 hours ago, Gally said:

With more people it's easier to slough off cards so 0 and 1 bids are easier to get.  Yes people jump on trump when short suited (especially if over bid) but it makes it much easier to hide big cards when short suited also (we play where you do not have to trump if you are short suited - maybe you play where you have to trump if you are short suited which makes it more difficult to hit?)

Yeah, it's definitely easier to avoid taking tricks with more people.  We don't have to trump, but I would say more than 90%+ of rounds are overbid, so maybe it's a specific group dynamic where everyone is always hunting tricks, which is probably encouraged by our scoring system of only 5 for zero tricks and no points if you take the wrong amount of tricks.  When I was talking about bidding being tricky I'm thinking specifically of hands like say the 6 round with a trump Q and a single offsuit A.  4 player that's a pretty straightforward 2 bid.  6 player how often will the ace go through?  Maybe 40%?  But if you don't count on it and get it, you're going to have a rough time not taking a trick with your Q. 

It seems less predictable to me with more players, but maybe that's just because the other trick tacking card games I am familiar with (hearts, spades, euchre, 500, hasenpfeffer) are 4 player and that's what I'm used to.

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14 hours ago, Dr_Zaius said:

Yeah, it's definitely easier to avoid taking tricks with more people.  We don't have to trump, but I would say more than 90%+ of rounds are overbid, so maybe it's a specific group dynamic where everyone is always hunting tricks, which is probably encouraged by our scoring system of only 5 for zero tricks and no points if you take the wrong amount of tricks.  When I was talking about bidding being tricky I'm thinking specifically of hands like say the 6 round with a trump Q and a single offsuit A.  4 player that's a pretty straightforward 2 bid.  6 player how often will the ace go through?  Maybe 40%?  But if you don't count on it and get it, you're going to have a rough time not taking a trick with your Q. 

It seems less predictable to me with more players, but maybe that's just because the other trick tacking card games I am familiar with (hearts, spades, euchre, 500, hasenpfeffer) are 4 player and that's what I'm used to.

Scoring plays a big role in how people bid as does the people playing.  Many of the group that I play with lean to under bids more than over bids so you have to be a lot more strategic about sloughing off mid cards or you get stuck with them.  Different strategy based on the type of players you play with for sure.  Sounds like your group is mostly over aggressive which makes getting tricks harder but may lead to underbidding being the way to go.  Try it for a couple games (bid one less on hands where you have some doubt) and see how it works out.  

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/14/2020 at 7:03 AM, culdeus said:

My general thoughts are

  • Nectar as a wild food is OP.   They should absolutely have re-worked that aspect.
  • Not only is it OP it takes complexity away from the game, you don't have to focus on the feeder as much.  
  • Nectar de-facto eliminates cherries from the game. There is zero reason whatsoever to pick a cherry from the feeder that I can think of.  For this reason my wife HATES nectar.  HATES it.  As she sort of likes the pretty cherry eating birds. (yeah, deal with it)
  • Caching spent nectar creates additional balance issues magnifying the above issue further.

So to rework things we now take the following house rules

  • Nectar is NOT wild food.  It's just simply food.
  • We use the scoring pad from the base game only (Eliminating nectar caching)
  • We give 1 free nectar no matter what at game start (This is core OE rule as it is, not really a house rule)
  • We choose either of the two board types depending on mood.   

We have also removed about 40 total birds that are low impact to the game.  Mostly from the base game.  

 

Finally got Oceania. Have played a half dozen times with 3-5p.

I like nectar. Yeah, it raises average scores 10 points or so. And it makes cherries worthless. But I like having alternative ways to score, to offset getting dealt a sh!tty opening hand. And it facilitates using some 3 rat/fish/cherry birds that would rarely be played otherwise. Not only can you play them more easily, you can play them early in the game. More birds and ways to score points=more strategies and potential for increased complexity IMO.

And I find nectar increases my focus on the feeder. While it's always good to get a food engine going, the promise of nectar makes me want to build up the woodlands moreso than previously.

With all the alternative ways to get eggs, the grasslands becomes the most ignored habitat, which is a complete 180 from the base game.

And the new player mats really help speed up round 1 (food and bird cards are easier to get), as well as clean up a stagnant bird feeder/face up cards.

The only real problem is allowing ravens to use their power to get nectar. Our house rules forbid it, which makes previously OP ravens (at least the ones who can't live in the forest, which may be all of them?) less desirable. 

Speaking of overpowered, some of the new birds are a bit much:

Little penguin - 7 points + draw 5 cards, cache all the fish in their cost. Don't know the exact odds, but my friend played this early and cached 10+ fish, with four in one turn.

Rainbow Lorikeet - Discard a nectar to the spent nectar space, then draw two food from the bird feeder. Effectively, you trade one nectar for two, and build your spent nectar for the end of game bonus.

Blyth's Hornbill - 7 points + discard all eggs from another bird with a hollow nest, then tuck twice as many cards. And it costs three cherries! Australian Magpie is similar, but less wing points and much harder to set up for max bonus.

Also, not sure why'd you eliminate low impact birds, as they provide fuel for relatively common tucking strategies.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Finally got Oceania. Have played a half dozen times with 3-5p.

I like nectar. Yeah, it raises average scores 10 points or so. And it makes cherries worthless. But I like having alternative ways to score, to offset getting dealt a sh!tty opening hand. And it facilitates using some 3 rat/fish/cherry birds that would rarely be played otherwise. Not only can you play them more easily, you can play them early in the game. More birds and ways to score points=more strategies and potential for increased complexity IMO.

Not sure I like that though, I like the game to have more or less a flow, where things are more improbable early but you can make things happen later.  To that there are very few three food birds that are something that I would usually want early on.  OE added a few, however.  Complexity is more or less in my mind making harder things easier or the other way around, I see adding a wild anything to a game as a complexity reduction.  

6 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

And I find nectar increases my focus on the feeder. While it's always good to get a food engine going, the promise of nectar makes me want to build up the woodlands moreso than previously.

Ehhh, every roll you expect to find 1.33 nectars.  The water row is where I try to get things going now.  Food is so easy to get, that forest birds I try to keep >6 points and play late without regard to their powers.  

6 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

With all the alternative ways to get eggs, the grasslands becomes the most ignored habitat, which is a complete 180 from the base game.

And the new player mats really help speed up round 1 (food and bird cards are easier to get), as well as clean up a stagnant bird feeder/face up cards.

Agree.  The new mat is the best feature.  

6 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

The only real problem is allowing ravens to use their power to get nectar. Our house rules forbid it, which makes previously OP ravens (at least the ones who can't live in the forest, which may be all of them?) less desirable. 

The rule book suggest simply to remove those birds, it's buried in there somewhere.  

6 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

Speaking of overpowered, some of the new birds are a bit much:

Little penguin - 7 points + draw 5 cards, cache all the fish in their cost. Don't know the exact odds, but my friend played this early and cached 10+ fish, with four in one turn.

Rainbow Lorikeet - Discard a nectar to the spent nectar space, then draw two food from the bird feeder. Effectively, you trade one nectar for two, and build your spent nectar for the end of game bonus.

Blyth's Hornbill - 7 points + discard all eggs from another bird with a hollow nest, then tuck twice as many cards. And it costs three cherries! Australian Magpie is similar, but less wing points and much harder to set up for max bonus.

Also, not sure why'd you eliminate low impact birds, as they provide fuel for relatively common tucking strategies.

Yeah there are some pretty strong must play cards.  They really poorly integrated the nectar brown powers also.  Most the birds that get you extra nectar are super OP.  Raven level OP.  

This leaves out a few other wild ones, like the ones that allow you to "spend at anytime" can turn into a caching machine into 2:1 tucks.  I had a repeater on a caching bird caching wheat and on my last turn tucked 42 cards in one turn as a result.  155 total points and we don't do the nectar nonsense.  There are a few other combinations like this that can effectively double points up, and with a repeater, quadruple.  Once those are set it really just becomes a "can I break my high score" game and uncompetitive.  

The other new finches that let you tuck on every bird in a row is really too much as well.  Repeated you can envision a 200 point game there.  I believe 230-240 is the theoretical max.

I still think they really screwed up the nectar thing. Badly. We still completely ignore them as wild, as we feel it dumbs the game down too much.  The next incarnation will likely be go back to the old dice and just make nectars cherries pretending that they simply put more birds in the game that ate and managed cherries.  I mean for all intents that's what nectar did to cherries with OE anyways.   This just resets that. 

One issue with the cards is they overran our shuffler.  It cant' deal with more than 6 bicycle decks.  The new cards put that more or less 40ish cards over so we pulled enough to make it fit, then the damn thing broke so we are on a hand crank one now.  Still don't miss them, most of the tucking birds are not judging now anyways, but yeah it sort of down rates the ones looking for wingspans.  

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1 hour ago, culdeus said:

Not sure I like that though, I like the game to have more or less a flow, where things are more improbable early but you can make things happen later.  To that there are very few three food birds that are something that I would usually want early on.  OE added a few, however.  Complexity is more or less in my mind making harder things easier or the other way around, I see adding a wild anything to a game as a complexity reduction.  

Ehhh, every roll you expect to find 1.33 nectars.  The water row is where I try to get things going now.  Food is so easy to get, that forest birds I try to keep >6 points and play late without regard to their powers.  

Agree.  The new mat is the best feature.  

The rule book suggest simply to remove those birds, it's buried in there somewhere.  

Yeah there are some pretty strong must play cards.  They really poorly integrated the nectar brown powers also.  Most the birds that get you extra nectar are super OP.  Raven level OP.  

This leaves out a few other wild ones, like the ones that allow you to "spend at anytime" can turn into a caching machine into 2:1 tucks.  I had a repeater on a caching bird caching wheat and on my last turn tucked 42 cards in one turn as a result.  155 total points and we don't do the nectar nonsense.  There are a few other combinations like this that can effectively double points up, and with a repeater, quadruple.  Once those are set it really just becomes a "can I break my high score" game and uncompetitive.  

The other new finches that let you tuck on every bird in a row is really too much as well.  Repeated you can envision a 200 point game there.  I believe 230-240 is the theoretical max.

I still think they really screwed up the nectar thing. Badly. We still completely ignore them as wild, as we feel it dumbs the game down too much.  The next incarnation will likely be go back to the old dice and just make nectars cherries pretending that they simply put more birds in the game that ate and managed cherries.  I mean for all intents that's what nectar did to cherries with OE anyways.   This just resets that. 

One issue with the cards is they overran our shuffler.  It cant' deal with more than 6 bicycle decks.  The new cards put that more or less 40ish cards over so we pulled enough to make it fit, then the damn thing broke so we are on a hand crank one now.  Still don't miss them, most of the tucking birds are not judging now anyways, but yeah it sort of down rates the ones looking for wingspans.  

Maybe variety is a better word than complexity. Nectar allows more bird variety and adds to replayability IMO.

And I might sound like a broken record, but Agricola is a great game if you like slower starts which build momentum as the the game goes on. But it’s really malicious 2p, if you’re playing right. It’s undoubtably more complex than WS though.

I don’t understand how you can accumulate 42 cards, let alone tuck that many in one turn. Fueling the finches is alway the limiter for me. But my high scores are only in the 120’s, though tucking strategies seem critical for really high points. I tended to favor them with the EE, but prefer tons of food if nectar is an option with all cards in play.

I also overwhelmed my card shuffler with the OE cards.

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I really like both the European and Oceana expansions.  :shrug:

I think the new powers have been more interesting, from round-end birds, to Game-end birds, and even the brown powers have added dimensions to the game.  I also like the round bonuses and bonus card additions.

But, we played the base game a lot.  So, it might just be that anything new was a welcome addition.

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48 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Maybe variety is a better word than complexity. Nectar allows more bird variety and adds to replayability IMO.

And I might sound like a broken record, but Agricola is a great game if you like slower starts which build momentum as the the game goes on. But it’s really malicious 2p, if you’re playing right. It’s undoubtably more complex than WS though.

I don’t understand how you can accumulate 42 cards, let alone tuck that many in one turn. Fueling the finches is alway the limiter for me. But my high scores are only in the 120’s, though tucking strategies seem critical for really high points. I tended to favor them with the EE, but prefer tons of food if nectar is an option with all cards in play.

I also overwhelmed my card shuffler with the OE cards.

So to tuck 42 in one turn, it basically needed.

Coal ### or European Nuthatch in forest row ( I forget which it was) There could be another like these two

A repeater in the forest row repeating this power

Whistling Duck in the water.

Need to bring 21 wheat to the whistling duck to tuck 42 cards in one turn.   It's doable on 11 food actions if you play the repeater first and the ### second.  

Yes, it's really just a net 21 points because you now discard those wheat that would have scored. But while amassing all that food play large pointed food heavy birds only in between stocking wheat.  

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45 minutes ago, culdeus said:

So to tuck 42 in one turn, it basically needed.

Coal ### or European Nuthatch in forest row ( I forget which it was) There could be another like these two

A repeater in the forest row repeating this power

Whistling Duck in the water.

Need to bring 21 wheat to the whistling duck to tuck 42 cards in one turn.   It's doable on 11 food actions if you play the repeater first and the ### second.  

Yes, it's really just a net 21 points because you now discard those wheat that would have scored. But while amassing all that food play large pointed food heavy birds only in between stocking wheat.  

Hmmm...I can see using a series of turns (11) to cache 22 wheat on the nuthatch or t!t, after the repeater has been played.

While those birds allow you to use the cached wheat at any time, they don’t activate another bird’s power (in this case, the whistling duck). So it takes another 11 turns to transfer those wheat by activating the duck to tuck 42. And you need two turns to play those birds, + 1 for the repeater

There are 8+7+6+5 = 26 turns in the game, and you’ve used 25 on that combo.

Doesn’t seem like a great way to score a lot of points, as the nuthatch is 3 pt, whistling duck 2, as is the cheapest repeater (to get it out early), the northern mockingbird. So you’ve scored 49 points + whatever bonus you may have earned. And you have one more turn and a ton of food.

I’m not seeing how you scored another hundred+ points with all that occurring. What am I missing?

Did you play another repeater on the wetlands? This would get 5 turns back to play other birds, using your all your extra food. But we’ve ignored eggs to play the second tier birds, so you’d need at least one action to get them. Still seems like a big stretch to average ~20 points net per action.

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58 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

Hmmm...I can see using a series of turns (11) to cache 22 wheat on the nuthatch or t!t, after the repeater has been played.

While those birds allow you to use the cached wheat at any time, they don’t activate another bird’s power (in this case, the whistling duck). So it takes another 11 turns to transfer those wheat by activating the duck to tuck 42. And you need two turns to play those birds, + 1 for the repeater

There are 8+7+6+5 = 26 turns in the game, and you’ve used 25 on that combo.

Doesn’t seem like a great way to score a lot of points, as the nuthatch is 3 pt, whistling duck 2, as is the cheapest repeater (to get it out early), the northern mockingbird. So you’ve scored 49 points + whatever bonus you may have earned. And you have one more turn and a ton of food.

I’m not seeing how you scored another hundred+ points with all that occurring. What am I missing?

Did you play another repeater on the wetlands? This would get 5 turns back to play other birds, using your all your extra food. But we’ve ignored eggs to play the second tier birds, so you’d need at least one action to get them. Still seems like a big stretch to average ~20 points net per action.

You can dump all the wheat in one turn.  You could trickle them out as you build cards but its more amazing to basically tuck a deck all at once. 

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15 minutes ago, culdeus said:

You can dump all the wheat in one turn.  You could trickle them out as you build cards but its more amazing to basically tuck a deck all at once. 

I'm not interpreting the cards that way. IMO, the "at any time" clause allows you to immediately cache wheat and potentially use it later, for bird costs or other powers, when activated. This contrasts to cards which say you cache/may cache a resource on a card, as once a resource is cached, by rule it must remain on the card for the rest of the game. The reverse is also true, as you can't retrospectively cache resources after you choose to put them in your supply, if that is an option. The "at any time" verbiage gives you the luxury of not wasting any cached points, if you mistakenly place resources in your supply but never use them, as it's not always readily apparent when the caching bird is activated.

And even with an abundance of accessible wheat, the whistling duck only allows you to tuck 2 cards per activation. The ability to "use" wheat at "any time" doesn't allow the resource to alter the constraints of the duck's activation.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but what makes you think you can tuck more than 2 cards per whistling duck activation, using only the cards we've mentioned?

 

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39 minutes ago, Terminalxylem said:

I'm not interpreting the cards that way. IMO, the "at any time" clause allows you to immediately cache wheat and potentially use it later, for bird costs or other powers, when activated. This contrasts to cards which say you cache/may cache a resource on a card, as once a resource is cached, by rule it must remain on the card for the rest of the game. The reverse is also true, as you can't retrospectively cache resources after you choose to put them in your supply, if that is an option. The "at any time" verbiage gives you the luxury of not wasting any cached points, if you mistakenly place resources in your supply but never use them, as it's not always readily apparent when the caching bird is activated.

And even with an abundance of accessible wheat, the whistling duck only allows you to tuck 2 cards per activation. The ability to "use" wheat at "any time" doesn't allow the resource to alter the constraints of the duck's activation.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but what makes you think you can tuck more than 2 cards per whistling duck activation, using only the cards we've mentioned?

 

Actually I got an official ruling on this from SM that is now cited.  I was a little unsure about this myself.  

Here's where the rulings are.  

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/194442/list-official-wingspan-rulings

The question was whether "spending" really included the whistling  duck action or not.  I wasn't even sure that was true.  

Edited by culdeus
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hmm - You guys made me go pull the cards.

 

I would have interpreted the combined power to be:

1. You can spend any wheat cached, at any time; but,

2. Whistling Duck - "When activated: Discard 1 wheat to tuck 2 cards from the deck."

 

I would not have allowed you to discard 21 wheat for 42 cards at one time.

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16 minutes ago, culdeus said:

Actually I got an official ruling on this from SM that is now cited.  I was a little unsure about this myself.  

Here's where the rulings are.  

https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/194442/list-official-wingspan-rulings

The question was whether "spending" really included the whistling  duck action or not.  I wasn't even sure that was true.  

That's a great link, thanks. Unfortunately, I still don't see anything in the rulings that allows a big wheat dump, which effectively saves you 10 wetland actions.

I'm not a member of the WS facebook group directly referenced in the coal ###'s/Eurasian nuthatch's discussion, but I see a thread (probably familiar to you 😉) started at BGG addressing this exact topic, and discussion of the ruling. The Stonemaier rep agreed with this guy's posting:

Quote

Yes, if you activate your whistling duck you can discard a wheat from your coal ### to tuck two cards under the duck.

So, the answer to the question is yes, the cached wheat can be used/discarded/spent for the whistling duck's power, when activated. I think that was how most interpreted the OP's question - I certainly did. But the bolded (added) strongly implies you can only discard a single wheat per activation. Otherwise, the explanation would have said "discard any number of wheat from your coal ### to tuck two cards per wheat under the duck". 

Is there some other ruling I missed?

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26 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

hmm - You guys made me go pull the cards.

 

I would have interpreted the combined power to be:

1. You can spend any wheat cached, at any time; but,

2. Whistling Duck - "When activated: Discard 1 wheat to tuck 2 cards from the deck."

 

I would not have allowed you to discard 21 wheat for 42 cards at one time.

:goodposting:Same way I'm interpreting it.

I hope I'm not irritating Culdeus, as I really can't see how the wording facilitates the mass discard. One good thing I've learned when thinking about this is the existence of a card compendium with comments on nuances like this, Wingsearch.

ETA If anyone is up for testing out the combo on the Steam WS app, I'll download it. Seems like quite a few here play the game.

Edited by Terminalxylem
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2 hours ago, Terminalxylem said:

:goodposting:Same way I'm interpreting it.

I hope I'm not irritating Culdeus, as I really can't see how the wording facilitates the mass discard. One good thing I've learned when thinking about this is the existence of a card compendium with comments on nuances like this, Wingsearch.

ETA If anyone is up for testing out the combo on the Steam WS app, I'll download it. Seems like quite a few here play the game.

That is interesting.  I was in that conversation saying that the funky part about it was whether the word "spent" implied being able to discard from the ### to run that. To me running that action across habitats at all was a little funky because in my mind "spending" means playing a bird with it, not discarding it which is the opposite of spend.   Jamey said no.  That was fine, ok.  

That it was limited to 1 wheat per action wasn't really part of the conversation.  There are other cards that say "at most" where there is a hard cap, this had none so I figured it was uncapped to the total amount of wheat you had, which usually is fairly limited except for a situation where the you can get one on a auto cache.  At the same time there are cards that have the phrase "Any number of".  So this is confusing.  

I have since deleted facebook.  It is entirely possible my contributions to that discussion are also since deleted.  

It's an extreme corner case though.  You need 2/~240 birds to show up, get and play.  Those sort of combos are fun, but usually hardly factor.  As it's described here it's fine and not OP at all.  I suppose my max is now 142 though I play with a really nerfed house rule for nectar.    

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We typically get a new game every Xmas. In the past, we've gotten many of the games often mentioned in here... Ticket to Ride, Settlers of Catan, Codenames, etc. I liked them all, but none are as good as the game we got this year, The Isle of Cats. 

Lots of layers, and super fun. Every game is different based on the cards you get throughout the game. Highly recommend. :thumbup:

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