ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I think its become pretty obvious that in the past couple years, Cam Cameron was the problem, not Joe Flacco. That doesn't mean he's top-5, just that he's not an above average game manager.
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QB Joe Flacco, IND (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter DenverBroncos
- Start date
Phenix
Footballguy
Yes, because in a post I make about WINNING QBs you named people who have never even been to the Superbowl with the exception of Marino. And isnt that only Marinos knock, that he never won the big game? Wow, good argument.Lets try this? Dilfer? Good QB? How bout Hostetler? Mark Rypien? Doug Williams? Jim McMahon? How bout Brad Johnson? all GREAT QBs who led their teams to Superbowl wins.'matttyl said:
Wait what did all those teams that won with great QBs have in common? Ohhhhhhh, a great legendary defense, thats right.Also, read the post before you respond, it can prove to be helpful.
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The_Man
Footballguy
Let's say you have a team with a great running game and great defense.
You turn this team over to a rookie QB. What are your instructions to him - to throw the ball over the place, and rack up big numbers? Or to play to the strength of the team, protect the ball, pass when needed, and win lots and lots of games?
I would do the latter. And it's worked. Since Flacco entered the NFL in 2008, what team has won more games (regular season and playoffs combined) than the Ravens? Nobody. They've won the most. How about protecting the ball? His 2.2% career pass interception rate is #4 all-time.
Let's take a look at other QBs. Can you name the QBs who have been to Super Bowl since Flacco entered the NFL in 2008?
AFC
Brady - one of best ever
P. Manning one of best ever
Roethlisberger (2) - likely HOF
NFC
Warner - HOF
Rodgers - on path for HOF and one of best ever status
Brees - likely HOF
E. Manning - one of these things is not like the others
And now you can add Flacco and Kaepernick. That's pretty select company. I don't see Rivers, or Romo, or Ryan, or Cutler. Or Sanchez for that matter.
Finally, let's look at Flacco's performance in the playoffs. Over the last three post-seasons, he's 5-2, with a loss at Pittsburgh and a loss at New England, and with road wins in tough venues like KC, Denver, and New England.
He's 128 of 220 for 1725 yards, 15 TDs and 2 INTs for a 102.2 QB rating, while playing games vs. defenses ranked #2 (Pitt 2010), #3 (Houston 2011) and #3 (Denver 2012).
He is not a Top 5 QB. He is a Top 15 QB and could be on the verge of entering his prime with a ceiling of being a Top 10 QB.
You turn this team over to a rookie QB. What are your instructions to him - to throw the ball over the place, and rack up big numbers? Or to play to the strength of the team, protect the ball, pass when needed, and win lots and lots of games?
I would do the latter. And it's worked. Since Flacco entered the NFL in 2008, what team has won more games (regular season and playoffs combined) than the Ravens? Nobody. They've won the most. How about protecting the ball? His 2.2% career pass interception rate is #4 all-time.
Let's take a look at other QBs. Can you name the QBs who have been to Super Bowl since Flacco entered the NFL in 2008?
AFC
Brady - one of best ever
P. Manning one of best ever
Roethlisberger (2) - likely HOF
NFC
Warner - HOF
Rodgers - on path for HOF and one of best ever status
Brees - likely HOF
E. Manning - one of these things is not like the others
And now you can add Flacco and Kaepernick. That's pretty select company. I don't see Rivers, or Romo, or Ryan, or Cutler. Or Sanchez for that matter.
Finally, let's look at Flacco's performance in the playoffs. Over the last three post-seasons, he's 5-2, with a loss at Pittsburgh and a loss at New England, and with road wins in tough venues like KC, Denver, and New England.
He's 128 of 220 for 1725 yards, 15 TDs and 2 INTs for a 102.2 QB rating, while playing games vs. defenses ranked #2 (Pitt 2010), #3 (Houston 2011) and #3 (Denver 2012).
He is not a Top 5 QB. He is a Top 15 QB and could be on the verge of entering his prime with a ceiling of being a Top 10 QB.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
How many playoff games has Grossman won?Remember, Flacco would be in back to back Super Bowls had Lee Evans not dropped an easy TD.'Warrior said:
You are right though; it does have nothing to do with luck. Flacco is just a damn good QB.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
As always, The_Man articulated the point better than most of us could. But, bottom line, if you think Joe Flacco "sucks," you're pretty stupid.
matttyl
Footballguy
Perfectly stated. I don't think anyone here is arguing that he's a top 5 QB right now. I'm definitely not arguing that, cause he just flat isn't. He is top 15, though, for sure, and honestly I think he's very close to that "top 10" status, though right at the bottom of it...and that goes for the NFL itself, as well as for fantasy purposes.
If you wanna comparison go look at drew Bree's numbers during cam Cameron and after he got from under Cameron ! That's what's gonna happen to Joe Flacco next yr!On a side note anyone drafting ray rice in 1st rd next yr is crazy Bernard pierce is the better Rb will force full blown committee
Run It Up
Footballguy
Lmao I'm just saying you heard it here 1st flacco will throw for 4200 and 25-30 Tds next yr book it!Good luck with that.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Pierce has impressed but you are wrong.Lmao I'm just saying you heard it here 1st flacco will throw for 4200 and 25-30 Tds next yr book it!Good luck with that.
matttyl
Footballguy
Lets not go crazy here. Brees was in SD (with Cameron) with this one RB....what was his name, I can't quite remember....oh yeah, LaDainian Tomlinson! And after he was without Cameron he was playing for the....oh I forget...New Orleans Saints.Lets not just pretend it was the same situation just with and without Cameron.
matttyl
Footballguy
Just found out that Flacco is in the top 20 ALL TIME for regular season passer ratings. The list, though, is comprised only of QBs with 1,500+ pass attempts, so it doesn't include younger current QBs like Cam, RG3, and Luck.He's also in the top 25 of all time post season passer rating.These calculations COMPLETELY remove anything with a strong defense or strong running game as it's determined ONLY by attempts, completions, passing yards, passing TDs, and INTs.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I think Pierce is a very worthy handcuff in next years re-drafts
mr roboto
Footballguy
Link?I don't doubt you, just interesting in seeing the list.
My admittedly homer response based in large part to having watched what Flacco can do and what he really means to the Ravens:Brady'shadyridr said:
Manning
Rodgers
Brees
Ryan
Ben
Eli
Flacco
Stafford (debatable)No way, No how. Stafford is Jeff George redo
Romo (this ones Not debatable)Romo has the pieces but the puzzle never seems to go together the right way, which is polar opposite of Flacco.
Guys who may surpass him soon:
Luck- Too soon to judge
Rg3- Major injury ???
Wlson and Kaepernick- I agree, these two may be something special for years to come
Newton- maybe, but I'll believe it when I see it consistently. Until then, Flacco is my quarterback
That puts Flacco in the 10-12 range which sounds about right to me.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Did you sleep through his postseason this year? He quieted all the critics.
mr roboto
Footballguy
Impressive, yes. But year 5, 1 playoff win. I think Ryan is a very good QB. But I see him and Flacco much closer together honestly. Same draft class, lets see what happens.
mr roboto
Footballguy
I can't remember exactly, but wasn't Eli considered a slightly better than middle of the road QB until his SB run?I feel like we either label a QB great or a bust. And because of the gaudy numbers some of the rookies have been putting up, we are much quicker to do so than in the past.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Absolutely. I'll never forget listening to Sirius NFL Radio in 2006, the year before Eli's first ring. Pat Kirwan was making a case on his show (Moving the Chains) that Eli was a Top-10 QB, and caller after caller - mainly Giants fans - kept laughing at him. After the 2007 Super Bowl, the laughter died down.
The_Man
Footballguy
That's interesting. I'd love to know how NFL player personnel experts really evaluate QBs. It obviously has to be more than stats.I think one big factor - for better and worse - is arm strength. A guy with truly great arm strength can simply do some things - like through an out to the sideline from the far hashmarks - that some other guys can't. As a result, those guys get marked up on the evaluation scale. Jaworski is in love with Flacco and has always ranked him highly, due in large part to his arm strength.As a Baltimore homer, I think two of Flacco's greatest strengths are his durability and his demeanor. The guy has played in 91 straight games over five years, and hasn't missed a single snap (other than when being taken out of the game late in blowouts, or in Week 17 vs. Cincy this year). He's been indestructible, and that's despite taking some huge hits from the Steelers and other teams on frigid December nights.And he's pretty much a football-playing robot. He doesn't get all worked up about the media, he's been playing in a contract year and hasn't said a single word about it. I loved the comparison of him and Brady in post-game interviews this week. Brady comes out with his hair carefully tousled, dressed in an open neck Versace shirt and blazer. Flacco is wearing the AFC Champion T-shirt and hat, and the hat's brim is totally straight across because he's too much of a dork to even bend it a little.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
-His arm-His decision-making (doesn't turn the ball over a lot, despite his inconsistency at times)-His play this postseason (8 TDs, 0 INTs)-His TD-INT ratio - +12 in '12, which was 9th best in the league (which is above average)
His defense wasn't sick this year, unless you consider a D 12th in points allowed and 17th in yards allowed sick/elite/dominant/etc.
matttyl
Footballguy
Sorry, should have included it in my post....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_career_passer_rating_leaders
mr roboto
Footballguy
Interesting. Definitely skewed toward modern day QBsPossible surprises above himSchaubRomoCulpepperGarciaPenningtonPossible surprises below himFavreStaubachEli ManningAikmanStarrMoonTarkingtonFoutsElway
CalBear
Footballguy
Eli is still considered a slightly better than middle of the road QB. The only way you can assert he's better than that is to equate team performance with individual performance (because "he" won two Super Bowls), and ignore the fact that his team has missed the playoffs three of the past four years.
matttyl
Footballguy
Well it is, and it isn't. It's the same formula for all, and it's based only on attempts, completions, passing yards, passing TDs, and interceptions. Rushing yards and rushing TDs by QBs, as well as fumbles aren't considered at all.It is skewed in that it's a much more pass friendly league now. Elway played for 16 years and never threw more than 4,030 yards, which Josh Freeman topped this year.....It also isn't because only QBs with 1,500+ attempts are on the list. So guys like Dalton and all the rookies aren't yet eligible. Wilson, Kaep, Cam, RG3 and Luck will likely all be top 30 players on this once they hit that mark. Josh Freeman has been in the league now 4 years and just became eligible for the list this year. Sam Bradford isn't eligible for the list yet (he's only 2 attempts away but has a 77.3 rating currently).All that said, there are hundreds of QBs who are eligible for this list, and Flacco is #18.
mr roboto
Footballguy
That's what I meant re: pass happy offenses and more emphasis on pass in HS, college, plus offensive friendly rules. I'm a Flacco supporter. Never thought he was as bad as the buzz suggested. 18 is impressive and should come as a surprise to the 'he sucks' crowd.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
So what's it down to, ladies & gents? The_Man and others have posted actual numbers showing that Flacco doesn't "suck". His stats the last two years of playoffs are stellar. His stats the last month or so are really good, too. Look, there are only a few Ravens fans here who post with any regularity and not ONE of them has ever posted that Flacco was in the class of Rodgers, Brees, Manning, Brady that I can recall. He can be very frustrating to watch as a fan. Sometimes he seems like he mainlined a speedball or ODed on Quaaludes. His pocket presence ain't good, though it's gotten better - shockingly, when the OL has played better.I wrote something here a few years ago about how Flacco couldn't, by himself, carry a team without at least a top-line unit (D/ST/Running game). That may still be true, but he's narrowing the gap.I think Eli may be a good comparison, but not perfect.
DropKick
Footballguy
Actually, yours was just the worst form of argument. The pass was right there. That is a fact. He played well enough to get to the SB in two consecutive years.
smackdaddies
Footballguy
someone had to resurrect this post...
Eviloutsider
Footballguy
Didn't post in this thread but I was/am wrong about him. I still think there are 10 QBs I would choose over him right now, especially at the cost of what he is going to put on their cap.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
He is a middle of the road qb. Not great, not bad. It's a team game and he's played on a couple great teams that relied heavily on defense to win. They also had incredible luck in more than a couple of those games (Kevin Williams, Welker, Tyree, Manningham, etc). They haven't done squat in any other year which makes it look even more like luck. Let me see him have a few 12 or 13 win seasons and more consistent playoff wins.
RBM
Footballguy
How many active qbs can claim this?
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
There is no denying, this cat really is Joe Cool.He's talking to Sal Pal right now and it looks as though he just won a preseason game.
RBM
Footballguy
Unflappable
Phenix
Footballguy
Sure as heck lit it up in the playoffs, he fattened his wallet today no doubt. But he played at a high level at the right time, makes me wonder why all his regular season stats are average. Kid came to play in the playoffs, guess that's all that matters.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
May not be elite in the regular season but in the playoffs there's little doubting that he is'BusterTBronco said:
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
He was in the playoffs this year, but before this year, not so much.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
From what I remember he's been pretty good for 3 consectutive years in the playoffs
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
How many lucky people are there during the course of a season in your eyes? 5,258,467,214?'BusterTBronco said:
