What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Climate Change aka Global Warming (1 Viewer)

Maurile Tremblay

Administrator
Staff member
From the guy who brought us this series of videos on the age of the earth, we've now got the first three four six eight installments of his series on climate change.

1.

The guy has a real talent for explaining complex subjects so that they're easy to understand. His series on the age of the earth was easy to follow while remaining scientifically accurate. I can't judge the accuracy of the videos on climate change, but they are easy to follow. I feel like I understand the relevant issues on both sides of the debate a lot better after watching just those three four six eight videos. I'm looking forward to the rest of the series; I'll keep this thread updated as they are posted.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Interesting videos. I don't know enough about the subject to judge how good a job the presenter does, but it sounded good to me.

 
Thoughtful. Logical. Practical. Fact-based.

Shame THIS thread will be probably the one that winds up getting buried without discussion.

 
There hasn't been much discussion of the videos, so I'm going to hijack my own thread.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that anthropogenic global warming is real. I'm also of the opinion that people are overestimating its importance (compared to other stuff).

There's a long profile of Freemon Dyson in last week's NYT mag, and I agree with him on this part:

“The costs of what Gore tells us to do would be extremely large,” Dyson said. “By restricting CO2 you make life more expensive and hurt the poor. I’m concerned about the Chinese.”

“They’re the biggest polluters,” [Dyson's wife] Imme replied.

“They’re also changing their standard of living the most, going from poor to middle class. To me that’s very precious.”
Moreover, as David Friedman points out at about the 39 minute mark
, global warming is projected to raise the sea level by a few feet and raise the temperature by a few degrees centigrade over the next 100 years. There are plenty of other hazards that can wipe out the entire human race well before then. He mentions nanotech, biotech, and unfriendly artificial intelligence. In addition, the possibility of solar flares, comets and asteroids, caldera eruptions, and other dangers would not only be more dire than global warming's likely impact, but they can happen with relatively no warning. A bio-engineered plague could give us just days to respond. Even the fastest climate change scenarios would take decades.I'm not all that skeptical about the existence of anthropogenic global warming. But I am skeptical that a given dollar will do more good if spent to reduce the threat of global warming than if spent to reduce other future risks instead, or just to reduce current poverty.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
There hasn't been much discussion of the videos, so I'm going to hijack my own thread.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that anthropogenic global warming is real. I'm also of the opinion that people are overestimating its importance (compared to other stuff).

There's a long profile of Freemon Dyson in last week's NYT mag, and I agree with him on this part:

“The costs of what Gore tells us to do would be extremely large,” Dyson said. “By restricting CO2 you make life more expensive and hurt the poor. I’m concerned about the Chinese.”

“They’re the biggest polluters,” [Dyson's wife] Imme replied.

“They’re also changing their standard of living the most, going from poor to middle class. To me that’s very precious.”
Moreover, as David Friedman points out at about the 39 minute mark
:unsure: I agree with the viewpoint that the costs of the measures presently being proposed as solutions to AGW outweigh the benefits. However the rhetoric from the majority of leaders that back this viewpoint doesn't focus on that, instead it focuses on arguing the merits of the science. And that's a losing argument, and one that doesn't address the real issue in terms of public policy.

Thanks for the video links.

 
Industry Ignored Its Scientists on Climate

By ANDREW C. REVKIN

April 24, 2009

For more than a decade the Global Climate Coalition, a group representing industries with profits tied to fossil fuels, led an aggressive lobbying and public relations campaign against the idea that emissions of heat-trapping gases could lead to global warming.

“The role of greenhouse gases in climate change is not well understood,” the coalition said in a scientific “backgrounder” provided to lawmakers and journalists through the early 1990s, adding that “scientists differ” on the issue.

But a document filed in a federal lawsuit demonstrates that even as the coalition worked to sway opinion, its own scientific and technical experts were advising that the science backing the role of greenhouse gases in global warming could not be refuted.

“The scientific basis for the Greenhouse Effect and the potential impact of human emissions of greenhouse gases such as CO2 on climate is well established and cannot be denied,” the experts wrote in an internal report compiled for the coalition in 1995.

The coalition was financed by fees from large corporations and trade groups representing the oil, coal and auto industries, among others. In 1997, the year an international climate agreement that came to be known as the Kyoto Protocol was negotiated, its budget totaled $1.68 million, according to tax records obtained by environmental groups.

Throughout the 1990s, when the coalition conducted a multimillion-dollar advertising campaign challenging the merits of an international agreement, policy makers and pundits were fiercely debating whether humans could dangerously warm the planet. Today, with general agreement on the basics of warming, the debate has largely moved on to the question of how extensively to respond to rising temperatures.

Environmentalists have long maintained that industry knew early on that the scientific evidence supported a human influence on rising temperatures, but that the evidence was ignored for the sake of companies’ fight against curbs on greenhouse gas emissions. Some environmentalists have compared the tactic to that once used by tobacco companies, which for decades insisted that the science linking cigarette smoking to lung cancer was uncertain. By questioning the science on global warming, these environmentalists say, groups like the Global Climate Coalition were able to sow enough doubt to blunt public concern about a consequential issue and delay government action.

George Monbiot, a British environmental activist and writer, said that by promoting doubt, industry had taken advantage of news media norms requiring neutral coverage of issues, just as the tobacco industry once had.

“They didn’t have to win the argument to succeed,” Mr. Monbiot said, “only to cause as much confusion as possible.”

William O’Keefe, at the time a leader of the Global Climate Coalition, said in a telephone interview that the group’s leadership had not been aware of a gap between the public campaign and the advisers’ views. Mr. O’Keefe said the coalition’s leaders had felt that the scientific uncertainty justified a cautious approach to addressing cuts in greenhouse gases.

The coalition disbanded in 2002, but some members, including the National Association of Manufacturers and the American Petroleum Institute, continue to lobby against any law or treaty that would sharply curb emissions. Others, like Exxon Mobil, now recognize a human contribution to global warming and have largely dropped financial support to groups challenging the science.

Documents drawn up by the coalition’s advisers were provided to lawyers by the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers, a coalition member, during the discovery process in a lawsuit that the auto industry filed in 2007 against the State of California’s efforts to limit vehicles’ greenhouse gas emissions. The documents included drafts of a primer written for the coalition by its technical advisory committee, as well as minutes of the advisers’ meetings.

The documents were recently sent to The New York Times by a lawyer for environmental groups that sided with the state. The lawyer, eager to maintain a cordial relationship with the court, insisted on anonymity because the litigation is continuing.

The advisory committee was led by Leonard S. Bernstein, a chemical engineer and climate expert then at the Mobil Corporation. At the time the committee’s primer was drawn up, policy makers in the United States and abroad were arguing over the scope of the international climate-change agreement that in 1997 became the Kyoto Protocol.

The primer rejected the idea that mounting evidence already suggested that human activities were warming the climate, as a 1995 report by the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change had concluded. (In a report in 2007, the panel concluded with near certainty that most recent warming had been caused by humans.)

Yet the primer also found unpersuasive the arguments being used by skeptics, including the possibility that temperatures were only appearing to rise because of flawed climate records.

“The contrarian theories raise interesting questions about our total understanding of climate processes, but they do not offer convincing arguments against the conventional model of greenhouse gas emission-induced climate change,” the advisory committee said in the 17-page primer.

According to the minutes of an advisory committee meeting that are among the disclosed documents, the primer was approved by the coalition’s operating committee early in 1996. But the approval came only after the operating committee had asked the advisers to omit the section that rebutted the contrarian arguments.

“This idea was accepted,” the minutes said, “and that portion of the paper will be dropped.”

The primer itself was never publicly distributed.

Mr. O’Keefe, who was then chairman of the Global Climate Coalition and a senior official of the American Petroleum Institute, the lobby for oil companies, said in the phone interview that he recalled seeing parts of the primer.

But he said he was not aware of the dropped sections when a copy of the approved final draft was sent to him. He said a change of that kind would have been made by the staff before the document was brought to the board for final consideration.

“I have no idea why the section on the contrarians would have been deleted,” said Mr. O’Keefe, now chief executive of the Marshall Institute, a nonprofit research group that opposes a mandatory cap on greenhouse gas emissions.

“One thing I’m absolutely certain of,” he said, “is that no member of the board of the Global Climate Coalition said, ‘We have to suppress this.’ ”

Benjamin D. Santer, a climate scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory whose work for the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was challenged by the Global Climate Coalition and allied groups, said the coalition was “engaging in a full-court press at the time, trying to cast doubt on the bottom-line conclusion of the I.P.C.C.” That panel concluded in 1995 that “the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on global climate.”

“I’m amazed and astonished,” Dr. Santer said, “that the Global Climate Coalition had in their possession scientific information that substantiated our cautious findings and then chose to suppress that information.”
 
There hasn't been much discussion of the videos, so I'm going to hijack my own thread.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that anthropogenic global warming is real. I'm also of the opinion that people are overestimating its importance (compared to other stuff).

There's a long profile of Freemon Dyson in last week's NYT mag, and I agree with him on this part:

“The costs of what Gore tells us to do would be extremely large,” Dyson said. “By restricting CO2 you make life more expensive and hurt the poor. I’m concerned about the Chinese.”

“They’re the biggest polluters,” [Dyson's wife] Imme replied.

“They’re also changing their standard of living the most, going from poor to middle class. To me that’s very precious.”
Moreover, as David Friedman points out at about the 39 minute mark
One of the better arguments in favor of intervention that I've read is that there are indeed many other potentially disasterous problems facing the planet over the next few centuries. Dyson focuses on some of the more science fictiony stuff (because that's the kind of guy he is), but there are a lot of meat-and-potatos disasters looming. Stuff like overpopulation, resource depletion and competition and pandemics. The thing about global warming is that while it's a problem in its own right, it also potentiates all of the other problems. It makes it much more likely that, say, problems facing Africa will manifest themselves in industrialized countries. It makes wars and starvation much more likely in countries where their effects are a lot more dangerous than they are in Mogadishu, because of the military potency and economic clout that the new sufferers will have.There's an alarmist (in a good way) book called "Six Degrees" out there. I haven't read it, but it goes through the different scenarios for different climate sensitivities. It focuses on the risks instead of the costs, obviously, but both are important.

http://www.amazon.com/Six-Degrees-Future-H...t/dp/142620213X

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think the skepticism elucidated here by MT is pretty much where I've been all along. I believe that man effects the earth, those pretending it doesn't are a bit foolhardy, but I've always questioned to what extent (because I do think it is sensationalized and oversold) and what are the appropriate remedial measures to take. I think we've seen the dangers of rapid changes to our global economy...I would say global economic destablization is every bit as dangerous as AGW and as compared to AGW potentiates even greater global threat. Stark regulation and prohibition would seem to me to be more damaging while incentivizing green technologies making globally responsible consumption profitable seems a reasonable path.

 
Thanks for posting those links - good videos.

As to whether or not we should do something about global warming, you have to consider the other impacts of burning fossil fuels. Increasing the earth's temperature isn't the only negative. Sending boatloads of money to oil producing countries isn't good for global security. Price fluctuations are only likely to get more drastic as supplies dwindle, and these fluctuations can wreak havoc on our economy. Oil, gas, and coal are not infinite resources. Sure, they are likely to last OUR lifetime, but how much beyond that? If you have young children now, consider that your grandchildren may be alive 120 to 140 years from now. Finally, consider the ail quality issue. Burning fossil fuels causes pollution, which in turn causes health problems.

On the flip side, cheap energy is a key to strong economic growth. Raise the price of energy, and growth slows. The question facing us right now is: do we keep on using cheap energy to promote growth now and deal with the side effects later, or do we start the push towards cleaner, safer energy that will initially cost more, but may eventually cost less?

 
Thanks for posting those links - good videos. As to whether or not we should do something about global warming, you have to consider the other impacts of burning fossil fuels. Increasing the earth's temperature isn't the only negative. Sending boatloads of money to oil producing countries isn't good for global security. Price fluctuations are only likely to get more drastic as supplies dwindle, and these fluctuations can wreak havoc on our economy. Oil, gas, and coal are not infinite resources. Sure, they are likely to last OUR lifetime, but how much beyond that? If you have young children now, consider that your grandchildren may be alive 120 to 140 years from now. Finally, consider the ail quality issue. Burning fossil fuels causes pollution, which in turn causes health problems. On the flip side, cheap energy is a key to strong economic growth. Raise the price of energy, and growth slows. The question facing us right now is: do we keep on using cheap energy to promote growth now and deal with the side effects later, or do we start the push towards cleaner, safer energy that will initially cost more, but may eventually cost less?
Global warming will be a drop in the bucket compared to the debt we're racking up for them.
 
shining path said:
There hasn't been much discussion of the videos, so I'm going to hijack my own thread.

I'm pretty convinced at this point that anthropogenic global warming is real. I'm also of the opinion that people are overestimating its importance (compared to other stuff).

There's a long profile of Freemon Dyson in last week's NYT mag, and I agree with him on this part:

“The costs of what Gore tells us to do would be extremely large,” Dyson said. “By restricting CO2 you make life more expensive and hurt the poor. I’m concerned about the Chinese.”

“They’re the biggest polluters,” [Dyson's wife] Imme replied.

“They’re also changing their standard of living the most, going from poor to middle class. To me that’s very precious.”
Moreover, as David Friedman points out at about the 39 minute mark
Is this an Orange Whip alias?

It's a Global Warming Pandemic....we're all going to die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Thanks for posting those links - good videos. As to whether or not we should do something about global warming, you have to consider the other impacts of burning fossil fuels. Increasing the earth's temperature isn't the only negative. Sending boatloads of money to oil producing countries isn't good for global security. Price fluctuations are only likely to get more drastic as supplies dwindle, and these fluctuations can wreak havoc on our economy. Oil, gas, and coal are not infinite resources. Sure, they are likely to last OUR lifetime, but how much beyond that? If you have young children now, consider that your grandchildren may be alive 120 to 140 years from now. Finally, consider the ail quality issue. Burning fossil fuels causes pollution, which in turn causes health problems. On the flip side, cheap energy is a key to strong economic growth. Raise the price of energy, and growth slows. The question facing us right now is: do we keep on using cheap energy to promote growth now and deal with the side effects later, or do we start the push towards cleaner, safer energy that will initially cost more, but may eventually cost less?
Global warming will be a drop in the bucket compared to the debt we're racking up for them.
Yep-- since nobody will be able to afford a house, they will NEED global warming..
 
Robin Hanson has a great talent for sniffing out BS.

CO2 Warming Looks Real

By Robin Hanson

May 30, 2009

Many have bent my ear over the last few months about global warming skepticism. So I’ve just done some moderate digging, and conclude:

1. In the last half billion years, CO2 has at times been 15 times denser, but not more than 10C warmer. So that is about as bad as warming could get.

2. In the last million years, CO2 usually rises after warming; clearly warming often causes CO2 increases.

3. CO2 is clearly way up (~30%) over 150 years, and rising fast, mainly due to human emissions. CO2 is denser than its been for a half million years.

4. The direct warming effect of CO2 on warming is mild and saturating; the effects of concern are indirect, e.g., water vapor and clouds, but the magnitude and sign of these indirect effects are far from clear.

5. Climate model builders make indirect effect assumptions, but most observers are skeptical they’ve got them right.

6. This uncertainty alone justifies substantial CO2 mitigation (emission cuts or geoengineering), if we are risk-averse enough and if mitigation risks are weaker.

7. Standard warming records show a real and accelerating rise, roughly matching the CO2 rise.

8. Such warming episodes seem common in recent history.

9. The match between recent warming and CO2 rise details is surprisingly close, substantially raising confidence that CO2 is the main cause of recent warming. (See this great analysis by Pablo Verdes.) This adds support for mitigation.

10. Among the few bets on global warming, the consensus is for more warming.

11. Geoengineering looks far more likely to be feasible and acceptable mitigation than emissions cuts.

12. Some doubt standard warming records, saying they are biased by urban measuring sites and arbitrary satellite record corrections. Temperature proxies like tree rings diverge from standard records in the last fifty years. I don’t have time to dig into these disputes, so for now I defer to the usual authorities.

It was mostly skeptics bending my ear, and skeptical arguments are easier to find on the web. But for now, the other side has convinced me.
 
Robin Hanson has a great talent for sniffing out BS.

CO2 Warming Looks Real

By Robin Hanson

May 30, 2009

Many have bent my ear over the last few months about global warming skepticism. So I've just done some moderate digging, and conclude:

1. In the last half billion years, CO2 has at times been 15 times denser, but not more than 10C warmer. So that is about as bad as warming could get.

2. In the last million years, CO2 usually rises after warming; clearly warming often causes CO2 increases.

3. CO2 is clearly way up (~30%) over 150 years, and rising fast, mainly due to human emissions. CO2 is denser than its been for a half million years.

4. The direct warming effect of CO2 on warming is mild and saturating; the effects of concern are indirect, e.g., water vapor and clouds, but the magnitude and sign of these indirect effects are far from clear.

5. Climate model builders make indirect effect assumptions, but most observers are skeptical they've got them right.

6. This uncertainty alone justifies substantial CO2 mitigation (emission cuts or geoengineering), if we are risk-averse enough and if mitigation risks are weaker.

7. Standard warming records show a real and accelerating rise, roughly matching the CO2 rise.

8. Such warming episodes seem common in recent history.

9. The match between recent warming and CO2 rise details is surprisingly close, substantially raising confidence that CO2 is the main cause of recent warming. (See this great analysis by Pablo Verdes.) This adds support for mitigation.

10. Among the few bets on global warming, the consensus is for more warming.

11. Geoengineering looks far more likely to be feasible and acceptable mitigation than emissions cuts.

12. Some doubt standard warming records, saying they are biased by urban measuring sites and arbitrary satellite record corrections. Temperature proxies like tree rings diverge from standard records in the last fifty years. I don't have time to dig into these disputes, so for now I defer to the usual authorities.

It was mostly skeptics bending my ear, and skeptical arguments are easier to find on the web. But for now, the other side has convinced me.
:shrug:
 
I label myself a "skeptic" - not necessarily of the concept itself - I have no doubt what we do has an impact on our environment. I am more skeptical of the consequences, climate models and many of the chicken-little knee-jerk reaction.

The following is very much aligned with my thinking on the subject.

5. Climate model builders make indirect effect assumptions, but most observers are skeptical they’ve got them right.

6. This uncertainty alone justifies substantial CO2 mitigation (emission cuts or geoengineering), if we are risk-averse enough and if mitigation risks are weaker.

11. Geoengineering looks far more likely to be feasible and acceptable mitigation than emissions cuts.

 
The Climate Change Climate Change

The number of skeptics is swelling everywhere.

By KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL

Steve Fielding recently asked the Obama administration to reassure him on the science of man-made global warming. When the administration proved unhelpful, Mr. Fielding decided to vote against climate-change legislation.

If you haven't heard of this politician, it's because he's a member of the Australian Senate. As the U.S. House of Representatives prepares to pass a climate-change bill, the Australian Parliament is preparing to kill its own country's carbon-emissions scheme. Why? A growing number of Australian politicians, scientists and citizens once again doubt the science of human-caused global warming.

Among the many reasons President Barack Obama and the Democratic majority are so intent on quickly jamming a cap-and-trade system through Congress is because the global warming tide is again shifting. It turns out Al Gore and the United Nations (with an assist from the media), did a little too vociferous a job smearing anyone who disagreed with them as "deniers." The backlash has brought the scientific debate roaring back to life in Australia, Europe, Japan and even, if less reported, the U.S.

In April, the Polish Academy of Sciences published a document challenging man-made global warming. In the Czech Republic, where President Vaclav Klaus remains a leading skeptic, today only 11% of the population believes humans play a role. In France, President Nicolas Sarkozy wants to tap Claude Allegre to lead the country's new ministry of industry and innovation. Twenty years ago Mr. Allegre was among the first to trill about man-made global warming, but the geochemist has since recanted. New Zealand last year elected a new government, which immediately suspended the country's weeks-old cap-and-trade program.

The number of skeptics, far from shrinking, is swelling. Oklahoma Sen. Jim Inhofe now counts more than 700 scientists who disagree with the U.N. -- 13 times the number who authored the U.N.'s 2007 climate summary for policymakers. Joanne Simpson, the world's first woman to receive a Ph.D. in meteorology, expressed relief upon her retirement last year that she was finally free to speak "frankly" of her nonbelief. Dr. Kiminori Itoh, a Japanese environmental physical chemist who contributed to a U.N. climate report, dubs man-made warming "the worst scientific scandal in history." Norway's Ivar Giaever, Nobel Prize winner for physics, decries it as the "new religion." A group of 54 noted physicists, led by Princeton's Will Happer, is demanding the American Physical Society revise its position that the science is settled. (Both Nature and Science magazines have refused to run the physicists' open letter.)

The collapse of the "consensus" has been driven by reality. The inconvenient truth is that the earth's temperatures have flat-lined since 2001, despite growing concentrations of C02. Peer-reviewed research has debunked doomsday scenarios about the polar ice caps, hurricanes, malaria, extinctions, rising oceans. A global financial crisis has politicians taking a harder look at the science that would require them to hamstring their economies to rein in carbon.

Credit for Australia's own era of renewed enlightenment goes to Dr. Ian Plimer, a well-known Australian geologist. Earlier this year he published "Heaven and Earth," a damning critique of the "evidence" underpinning man-made global warming. The book is already in its fifth printing. So compelling is it that Paul Sheehan, a noted Australian columnist -- and ardent global warming believer -- in April humbly pronounced it "an evidence-based attack on conformity and orthodoxy, including my own, and a reminder to respect informed dissent and beware of ideology subverting evidence." Australian polls have shown a sharp uptick in public skepticism; the press is back to questioning scientific dogma; blogs are having a field day.

The rise in skepticism also came as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd, elected like Mr. Obama on promises to combat global warming, was attempting his own emissions-reduction scheme. His administration was forced to delay the implementation of the program until at least 2011, just to get the legislation through Australia's House. The Senate was not so easily swayed.

Mr. Fielding, a crucial vote on the bill, was so alarmed by the renewed science debate that he made a fact-finding trip to the U.S., attending the Heartland Institute's annual conference for climate skeptics. He also visited with Joseph Aldy, Mr. Obama's special assistant on energy and the environment, where he challenged the Obama team to address his doubts. They apparently didn't.

This week Mr. Fielding issued a statement: He would not be voting for the bill. He would not risk job losses on "unconvincing green science." The bill is set to founder as the Australian parliament breaks for the winter.

Republicans in the U.S. have, in recent years, turned ever more to the cost arguments against climate legislation. That's made sense in light of the economic crisis. If Speaker Nancy Pelosi fails to push through her bill, it will be because rural and Blue Dog Democrats fret about the economic ramifications. Yet if the rest of the world is any indication, now might be the time for U.S. politicians to re-engage on the science. One thing for sure: They won't be alone.
 
Robin Hanson has a great talent for sniffing out BS.

CO2 Warming Looks Real

By Robin Hanson

May 30, 2009

Many have bent my ear over the last few months about global warming skepticism. So I've just done some moderate digging, and conclude:

1. In the last half billion years, CO2 has at times been 15 times denser, but not more than 10C warmer. So that is about as bad as warming could get.

2. In the last million years, CO2 usually rises after warming; clearly warming often causes CO2 increases.

3. CO2 is clearly way up (~30%) over 150 years, and rising fast, mainly due to human emissions. CO2 is denser than its been for a half million years.

4. The direct warming effect of CO2 on warming is mild and saturating; the effects of concern are indirect, e.g., water vapor and clouds, but the magnitude and sign of these indirect effects are far from clear.

5. Climate model builders make indirect effect assumptions, but most observers are skeptical they've got them right.

6. This uncertainty alone justifies substantial CO2 mitigation (emission cuts or geoengineering), if we are risk-averse enough and if mitigation risks are weaker.

7. Standard warming records show a real and accelerating rise, roughly matching the CO2 rise.

8. Such warming episodes seem common in recent history.

9. The match between recent warming and CO2 rise details is surprisingly close, substantially raising confidence that CO2 is the main cause of recent warming. (See this great analysis by Pablo Verdes.) This adds support for mitigation.

10. Among the few bets on global warming, the consensus is for more warming.

11. Geoengineering looks far more likely to be feasible and acceptable mitigation than emissions cuts.

12. Some doubt standard warming records, saying they are biased by urban measuring sites and arbitrary satellite record corrections. Temperature proxies like tree rings diverge from standard records in the last fifty years. I don't have time to dig into these disputes, so for now I defer to the usual authorities.

It was mostly skeptics bending my ear, and skeptical arguments are easier to find on the web. But for now, the other side has convinced me.
Then again:http://emergentfool.com/2009/05/31/will-th...lease-stand-up/

Yesterday, he put up a post titled CO2 Warming Looks Real. He's not an expert. Like me, he has an economics background and did some detailed research. Yet from the title and body of the post, I though he must have reached a very different conclusion than I did. So I thought I'd try to engage him to find out where we differ. The results were interesting.

Obviously, and as Robin knows, the best way to elicit a person's true beliefs is to observe where he puts his money. So I offered to negotiate a bet of up to $1,000. As you can see from reading the comments, he eventually offered an even-odds bet than the temperature would rise 0.1 deg C in 20 years. Yes, you read that correctly: 0.1 deg C.

 
Totally agree we are ####ting all over our house.

Just not sure that living in #### will necessarily be a negative thing in the future?

Sucks to be a polar bear though.

 
Totally agree we are ####ting all over our house.

Just not sure that living in #### will necessarily be a negative thing in the future?

Sucks to be a polar bear though.
I'm just one person, so it's tough to keep straightening out everyone's misconceptions, but I try:http://newsbusters.org/node/11879

Denis Simard of Environment Canada agreed:

You have to keep in mind that the bears are not in danger at all. This is a perfect picture for climate change…you have the impression they are in the middle of the ocean and they are going to die...But they were not that far from the coast, and it was possible for them to swim...They are still alive and having fun.

 
Totally agree we are ####ting all over our house.

Just not sure that living in #### will necessarily be a negative thing in the future?

Sucks to be a polar bear though.
I'm just one person, so it's tough to keep straightening out everyone's misconceptions, but I try:http://newsbusters.org/node/11879

Denis Simard of Environment Canada agreed:

You have to keep in mind that the bears are not in danger at all. This is a perfect picture for climate change…you have the impression they are in the middle of the ocean and they are going to die...But they were not that far from the coast, and it was possible for them to swim...They are still alive and having fun.
These guys might beg to differ.
 
Totally agree we are ####ting all over our house.

Just not sure that living in #### will necessarily be a negative thing in the future?

Sucks to be a polar bear though.
I'm just one person, so it's tough to keep straightening out everyone's misconceptions, but I try:http://newsbusters.org/node/11879

Denis Simard of Environment Canada agreed:

You have to keep in mind that the bears are not in danger at all. This is a perfect picture for climate change…you have the impression they are in the middle of the ocean and they are going to die...But they were not that far from the coast, and it was possible for them to swim...They are still alive and having fun.
These guys might beg to differ.
You didn't read the article, did you?
 
Totally agree we are ####ting all over our house.

Just not sure that living in #### will necessarily be a negative thing in the future?

Sucks to be a polar bear though.
I'm just one person, so it's tough to keep straightening out everyone's misconceptions, but I try:http://newsbusters.org/node/11879

Denis Simard of Environment Canada agreed:

You have to keep in mind that the bears are not in danger at all. This is a perfect picture for climate change…you have the impression they are in the middle of the ocean and they are going to die...But they were not that far from the coast, and it was possible for them to swim...They are still alive and having fun.
These guys might beg to differ.
You didn't read the article, did you?
Don't get your panties in a bunch, Jimmy. Do you seriously think I was trying to rebut your argument with a pic of 2 bears standing on some ice? And no, I didn't read the article, but I apologize if I came to the conclusion you beleive the polar bears have nothing to worry about. After all, the paragraph you copied doesn't imply that at all.
 
Does Climate Catastrophe Pass the Giggle Test?

by David Friedman

July 5, 2009

The argument for doing drastic things to prevent global warming has two parts. The first has to do with climate change, with reasons to think that the earth is getting warmer and that the reason is human action, in particular the production of CO2. The second has to do with consequences of climate change for humans.

Most of the criticism I have seen, in comments to this blog and elsewhere, has to do with the first half, with critics arguing that the evidence for global warming, or at least the evidence it is caused by humans and will continue if humans do not mend their ways, is weak. I don not know enough to be sure that those criticisms are wrong; pretty clearly climate is a very complicated and not terribly well understood subject. But my best guess, from watching the debate, is that the first half of the argument is correct, that global climate is warming and that human action is at least an important part of the cause.

What I find unconvincing is the second half of the argument. More precisely, I find unconvincing the claim that climate change on the scale suggested by the results of the IPCC models would have catastrophic consequences for humans. Obviously one can imagine climate change large enough and fast enough to be a very serious problem—a rapid end of the current interglacial, for example. And if, as I believe is the case, climate is not very well understood, one cannot absolutely rule out such changes.

But most of the argument is put in terms not of what might conceivably happen but of what we have good reason to expect to happen, and I think the outer bound of that is provided by the IPCC models. They suggest a temperature increase of about two degrees centigrade over the next hundred years, resulting in a sea level rise of about a foot and a half. What I find implausible is the claim that changes on that scale at that speed would be catastrophic—sufficiently so to justify very expensive measures now to prevent them.

Human beings, after all, currently live, work, grow food in a much wider range of climates than that. Glancing over a U.S. climate map, it looks as though all of the places I have lived are within an hour or two drive of other places with an average temperature at least two degrees centigrade higher. If people can currently live, work, grow crops over a temperature range of much more than two degrees, it is hard to imagine any reason why most of them couldn't continue to do so, about as easily, if average temperature shifted up by that amount—especially if they had a century to adjust to the change. That observation raises the question with which I titled this post: Does climate change catastrophe pass the giggle test? Is the claim that climate change of that scale would have catastrophic consequences one that any reasonable person could take seriously?

I can only see two ways of defending such a claim. The first is some argument to show that present arrangements are, due to divine intervention or some alternative mechanism, optimal, so that any deviation, even a small one, can be expected to make things worse. The second, and less wildly implausible, is the observation that people have adapted their activities—the sort of houses they live in, the varieties of crops they grow—to current conditions. Put in economic terms, we have sunk costs in our present way of doing things. Even if the planet has not been optimized for us, we have optimized our activities for the planet, with the details depending in part on the local climate. Hence any change in either direction can be expected to be a worsening, making our present way of doing things less well adapted to the new conditions.

That would be a persuasive argument if we were talking about a substantial change occurring over five or ten years. But we aren't. We are talking about a not very large change occurring over a century. In the course of a century, most existing houses will be replaced. If temperatures are rising, they will be replaced with houses designed for a (slightly) warmer climate. If sea levels are rising, they will be replaced, in low lying coastal areas, with houses a little farther inland. Over a century, farmers will change at least the varieties they are growing, very possibly the kind of crop, multiple times, in response to the development of new crop varieties, shifting demand, and similar changes. If temperatures are rising, they will gradually shift to crops adapted to a (slightly) warmer climate.

Climate aside, we do not live in a static world—consider the changes that have occurred over the past century. The shifts we can expect to occur due to technological progress alone, even without allowing for political and demographic shifts, are much larger than the shifts required to deal with climate change on the scale I am discussing.

My conclusion is that this version of climate catastrophe, at least, does not pass the giggle test. There may be other versions, based on more pessimistic predictions of climate change, that do. But the claim that we now have good reason to expect climate change on a scale that will produce not merely problems for some but catastrophe for many is one that no reasonable person should take seriously.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Does Climate Catastrophe Pass the Giggle Test?

by David Friedman

July 5, 2009

The argument for doing drastic things to prevent global warming has two parts. The first has to do with climate change, with reasons to think that the earth is getting warmer and that the reason is human action, in particular the production of CO2. The second has to do with consequences of climate change for humans.

Most of the criticism I have seen, in comments to this blog and elsewhere, has to do with the first half, with critics arguing that the evidence for global warming, or at least the evidence it is caused by humans and will continue if humans do not mend their ways, is weak. I don not know enough to be sure that those criticisms are wrong; pretty clearly climate is a very complicated and not terribly well understood subject. But my best guess, from watching the debate, is that the first half of the argument is correct, that global climate is warming and that human action is at least an important part of the cause.

What I find unconvincing is the second half of the argument. More precisely, I find unconvincing the claim that climate change on the scale suggested by the results of the IPCC models would have catastrophic consequences for humans. Obviously one can imagine climate change large enough and fast enough to be a very serious problem—a rapid end of the current interglacial, for example. And if, as I believe is the case, climate is not very well understood, one cannot absolutely rule out such changes.

But most of the argument is put in terms not of what might conceivably happen but of what we have good reason to expect to happen, and I think the outer bound of that is provided by the IPCC models. They suggest a temperature increase of about two degrees centigrade over the next hundred years, resulting in a sea level rise of about a foot and a half. What I find implausible is the claim that changes on that scale at that speed would be catastrophic—sufficiently so to justify very expensive measures now to prevent them.

Human beings, after all, currently live, work, grow food in a much wider range of climates than that. Glancing over a U.S. climate map, it looks as though all of the places I have lived are within an hour or two drive of other places with an average temperature at least two degrees centigrade higher. If people can currently live, work, grow crops over a temperature range of much more than two degrees, it is hard to imagine any reason why most of them couldn't continue to do so, about as easily, if average temperature shifted up by that amount—especially if they had a century to adjust to the change. That observation raises the question with which I titled this post: Does climate change catastrophe pass the giggle test? Is the claim that climate change of that scale would have catastrophic consequences one that any reasonable person could take seriously?

I can only see two ways of defending such a claim. The first is some argument to show that present arrangements are, due to divine intervention or some alternative mechanism, optimal, so that any deviation, even a small one, can be expected to make things worse. The second, and less wildly implausible, is the observation that people have adapted their activities—the sort of houses they live in, the varieties of crops they grow—to current conditions. Put in economic terms, we have sunk costs in our present way of doing things. Even if the planet has not been optimized for us, we have optimized our activities for the planet, with the details depending in part on the local climate. Hence any change in either direction can be expected to be a worsening, making our present way of doing things less well adapted to the new conditions.

That would be a persuasive argument if we were talking about a substantial change occurring over five or ten years. But we aren't. We are talking about a not very large change occurring over a century. In the course of a century, most existing houses will be replaced. If temperatures are rising, they will be replaced with houses designed for a (slightly) warmer climate. If sea levels are rising, they will be replaced, in low lying coastal areas, with houses a little farther inland. Over a century, farmers will change at least the varieties they are growing, very possibly the kind of crop, multiple times, in response to the development of new crop varieties, shifting demand, and similar changes. If temperatures are rising, they will gradually shift to crops adapted to a (slightly) warmer climate.

Climate aside, we do not live in a static world—consider the changes that have occurred over the past century. The shifts we can expect to occur due to technological progress alone, even without allowing for political and demographic shifts, are much larger than the shifts required to deal with climate change on the scale I am discussing.

My conclusion is that this version of climate catastrophe, at least, does not pass the giggle test. There may be other versions, based on more pessimistic predictions of climate change, that do. But the claim that we now have good reason to expect climate change on a scale that will produce not merely problems for some but catastrophe for many is one that no reasonable person should take seriously.
This is where I'm at. What I have been unimpressed by is the doomsday scenarios presented by some, saying the science is settled and we have to spend huge amounts of money and create a huge international bureaucracy to administer it. The science appears at least, to be theoretically compelling, but there is much we do not know about the earth's cooling and warming cycles. And the catastrophic effects are way overstated.
 
I missed this thread the first time around. Listened to the first three videos and detected some logic breaks, some attempts to defend "conventional wisdom" and so on. I've drunk too much wine to comment tonight. Maybe tomorrow if the thread doesn't get buried.

 
ceo3west said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
An article on the effects of GW from a conservative economist? C'mon Maurile, you can do better than that.
David Friedman is one of the most intellectually honest, and one of the most intelligent, people I know of. But I'm not introducing him as an authority, and it ain't the labels that matter.Where do you find errors in his assumptions or his reasoning?

 
ceo3west said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
An article on the effects of GW from a conservative economist? C'mon Maurile, you can do better than that.
David Friedman is one of the most intellectually honest, and one of the most intelligent, people I know of. But I'm not introducing him as an authority, and it ain't the labels that matter.Where do you find errors in his assumptions or his reasoning?
Not directed at Maurile: Can we at least once pretend to have an adult conversation without snarky political bull####? Lets pretend I'm a conservative that needs to be convinced that global warming is a real threat and that humans are a major contributing factor. While I'm basking in the 80 degree temps that are normally 15 degrees higher this time of year.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top