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14 hours ago, zoonation said:

Sure.

But I am saying he hit his irons better than anyone at Augusta and it wasn't particularly close.  When he puts the ball in the fairway off the tee he is the best player on the planet.  At 43 years old and after 8 back procedures.  It is remarkable. 

Then I'd say we shouldn't be arguing because we're not actually making different points, GB.

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:lmao:

It's like it's 2013 again.  Tiger wins 8 times in two years, is the #1 golfer in the world (which he would be again, right now, if he'd played more events), led the tour in money won and was the Player of the Year.  But he still wasn't back.

Imagine looking at this and being willing to argue for five years that Tiger never made it back:

 

2012: Three victories

72. Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard
Woods margin of victory: 5

73. the Memorial Tournament presented by Nationwide Insurance
Woods margin of victory: 2

74. AT&T National
Woods margin of victory: 2

2013: Five victories

75. Farmers Insurance Open
Woods margin of victory: 4

76. World Golf Championships-Cadillac Championship
Woods margin of victory: 2

77. Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard
Woods margin of victory: 2

78. THE PLAYERS Championship
Woods margin of victory: 2

79. World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational
Woods margin of victory: 7

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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Tom Watson was just a putt away from "being back" in 2009.  God, could you imagine the run he could've pulled off if he won the British Open?  I mean, he was the best best ball striker that weekend.  Probably could've won at least 12 more majors after that.  And if he could have just drove the ball further and straighter, and got some more putts to drop... Geez.  Now that would have been something.  

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10 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

:lmao:

It's like it's 2013 again.  Tiger wins 8 times in two years, is the #1 golfer in the world (which he would be again, right now, if he'd played more events), led the tour in money won and was the Player of the Year.  But he still wasn't back.

Imagine looking at this and being willing to argue for five years that Tiger never made it back:

 

2012: Three victories

72. Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard
Woods margin of victory: 5

73. the Memorial Tournament presented by Nationwide Insurance
Woods margin of victory: 2

74. AT&T National
Woods margin of victory: 2

2013: Five victories

75. Farmers Insurance Open
Woods margin of victory: 4

76. World Golf Championships-Cadillac Championship
Woods margin of victory: 2

77. Arnold Palmer Invitational presented by MasterCard
Woods margin of victory: 2

78. THE PLAYERS Championship
Woods margin of victory: 2

79. World Golf Championships-Bridgestone Invitational
Woods margin of victory: 7

Get your damned logic out of here. No room for that in this thread. 

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42 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

Tom Watson was just a putt away from "being back" in 2009.  God, could you imagine the run he could've pulled off if he won the British Open?  I mean, he was the best best ball striker that weekend.  Probably could've won at least 12 more majors after that.  And if he could have just drove the ball further and straighter, and got some more putts to drop... Geez.  Now that would have been something.  

A captain should always go down with his ship.  Well done, Captain Sheik.

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2 hours ago, TobiasFunke said:

Breaking Jack's major record is a big deal, but breaking Sam Snead's record for PGA Tour wins should be a big deal too.  And that's almost definitely gonna happen. Should be a cool moment.

I know I could probably just easily look this up, but I've actually been kind of busy this morning.

What's the record and where's Tiger at now?

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7 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

I know I could probably just easily look this up, but I've actually been kind of busy this morning.

What's the record and where's Tiger at now?

Sam Snead, 82 wins.

Tiger Woods, 81 wins.

Jack Nicklaus, 63 wins.

Ben Hogan, 64 wins.

Arnold Palmer, 62 wins.

...

Closer than I thought ... for some reason, I though Snead was over 100.

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So after telling my 16 year old son how great Tiger Woods was, I went back and looked at largest margin of victory's in majors since 1940.

Masters:

  1. Tiger Woods 12 strokes, 1997
  2. Jack Nicklaus 9 strokes, 1965
  3. Ray Floyd 8 strokes, 1976
  4. Cary Middlecoff 7 strokes, 1955
  5. Arnold Palmer 6 strokes, 1964

U.S. Open

  1. Tiger Woods 15 strokes, 2000
  2. Rory McIlroy 8 strokes, 2011
  3. Martin Kaymer 8 strokes, 2014
  4. Tony Jacklin 7 strokes, 1970
  5. Ben Hogan 6 strokes, 1953

British Open

  1. Tiger Woods 8 strokes, 2000
  2. Louis Oosthuizen 7 strokes, 2010
  3. Johnny Miller 6 strokes, 1976
  4. Arnold Palmer 6 strokes, 1962
  5. 5 tied at 5 strokes (including Tiger in 2005)

PGA

  1. Rory McIlroy 8 strokes, 2012
  2. Jack Nicklaus 7 strokes, 1980
  3. Nick Price 6 strokes, 1994
  4. Tiger Woods 5 strokes, 2006
  5. Davis Love III 5 strokes, 1997

KInd of put it into perspective for me how dominant Tiger was versus the rest of the field. The U.S. open victory in 2000 is just insane, the fact that no one in the field shot better than 3 over, and he shot 12 under.

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19 minutes ago, dhockster said:

So after telling my 16 year old son how great Tiger Woods was, I went back and looked at largest margin of victory's in majors since 1940.

Masters:

  1. Tiger Woods 12 strokes, 1997
  2. Jack Nicklaus 9 strokes, 1965
  3. Ray Floyd 8 strokes, 1976
  4. Cary Middlecoff 7 strokes, 1955
  5. Arnold Palmer 6 strokes, 1964

U.S. Open

  1. Tiger Woods 15 strokes, 2000
  2. Rory McIlroy 8 strokes, 2011
  3. Martin Kaymer 8 strokes, 2014
  4. Tony Jacklin 7 strokes, 1970
  5. Ben Hogan 6 strokes, 1953

British Open

  1. Tiger Woods 8 strokes, 2000
  2. Louis Oosthuizen 7 strokes, 2010
  3. Johnny Miller 6 strokes, 1976
  4. Arnold Palmer 6 strokes, 1962
  5. 5 tied at 5 strokes (including Tiger in 2005)

PGA

  1. Rory McIlroy 8 strokes, 2012
  2. Jack Nicklaus 7 strokes, 1980
  3. Nick Price 6 strokes, 1994
  4. Tiger Woods 5 strokes, 2006
  5. Davis Love III 5 strokes, 1997

KInd of put it into perspective for me how dominant Tiger was versus the rest of the field. The U.S. open victory in 2000 is just insane, the fact that no one in the field shot better than 3 over, and he shot 12 under.

And what's crazy about those blowouts was that he probably drew more viewers during those blowouts, which is just insane to think about from a TV Sports mindset.  

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This is back of the envelope so slight grain of salt, but...

During Jack's era (1962-1986) there were two major winners from outside the old English-speaking British Empire (ENG, SCO, WAL, IRE, NIR, CAN, AUS, NZ, SAF):  Roberto DeVicenzo (1) and Seve (5).  And Seve's came during the twilight of Jack's career (1979-1988). 

So for the 1st 17 years of Jack's career (1962-1978) players from "the rest of the world" won 1/68 majors.

From 1979 forward (including Seve), 10 different players from TROW have won 22 majors.  Again, those counts might be slightly off, but should be close.

Argentina (2), Fiji (3), Germany (4), Italy (1), Spain (8), Sweden (1), Zimbabwe (3) have taken down 22/160 majors -- basically one every other year.

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1 minute ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

This is back of the envelope so slight grain of salt, but...

During Jack's era (1962-1986) there were two major winners from outside the old English-speaking British Empire (ENG, SCO, WAL, IRE, NIR, CAN, AUS, NZ, SAF):  Roberto DeVicenzo (1) and Seve (5).  And Seve's came during the twilight of Jack's career (1979-1988). 

So for the 1st 17 years of Jack's career (1962-1978) players from "the rest of the world" won 1/68 majors.

From 1979 forward (including Seve), 10 different players from TROW have won 22 majors.  Again, those counts might be slightly off, but should be close.

Argentina (2), Fiji (3), Germany (4), Italy (1), Spain (8), Sweden (1), Zimbabwe (3) have taken down 22/160 majors -- basically one every other year.

These stats can be a little overinflated.  The majority of the best players are still from the British Empire.  Sure, there are some great players from outside it now, but they are still the exception.  

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6 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

The majority of the best players are still from the British Empire.  Sure, there are some great players from outside it now, but they are still the exception.  

Exactly.  Tiger faces all of the same competition Jack did, plus a bunch of other guys.  That was the point.

ETA:  Putting it another way.  Players from TROW were 9x as likely (14% vs 1.5%) to win a major after 1978 as they had been from 1962-1978.

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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9 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Argentina (2), Fiji (3), Germany (4), Italy (1), Spain (8), Sweden (1), Zimbabwe (3) have taken down 22/160 majors -- basically one every other year.

Doesn't change your point much ... but you can throw Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) into the "former British colony" bucket, too.

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4 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Exactly.  Tiger faces all of the same competition Jack did, plus a bunch of other guys.  That was the point.

ETA:  Putting it another way.  Players from TROW were 9x as likely (14% vs 1.5%) to win a major after 1978 as they had been from 1962-1978.

No.  I'm actually saying your stats are a little deceiving.  Just because Tiger was facing people from other countries doesn't mean his competition was greater.  The other countries outside of the British Empire don't produce that many tour golfers.  Maybe 3 or 4.  And on top of that, more countries doesn't mean better competition.

The golfer who wins the 2030 US Open won't be better than Tiger because North Korea, Iran and Sudan now have 3 guys in the field.

And I'm not saying Jack's competition was better.  All I'm saying is your stats don't really prove anything.  

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Just now, Dinsy Ejotuz said:
1 minute ago, Doug B said:

Doesn't change your point much ... but you can throw Zimbabwe (formerly Rhodesia) into the "former British colony" bucket, too.

Nice catch.

Heck, Fiji, too ... they still have the Union Jack as the canton of their national flag.

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2 minutes ago, TheIronSheik said:

The golfer who wins the 2030 US Open won't be better than Tiger because North Korea, Iran and Sudan now have 3 guys in the field.


Whoa now -- depends on who NK sends:

Quote

 

[North Korean club 'pro' Park Yung-man] proceeded to take [Australian journalist Eric Ellis] around the course, hole-by-hole, to show him how well Kim Jong-il had played. The first hole was a 374-yard par 4. "Dear Leader Comrade General Kim Jong-il, who I respect from the bottom of my heart, scored two on this hole," Park said. And it went on from there. The worst Kim scored on any hole was a birdie. He finished with a 34.

And, the famous kicker: Kim had five holes-in-one.

"He's an excellent golfer," Park said.

 


Really, all this Tiger and Jack stuff ... all that's just for second-best, really.

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2 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Another view:

  • From 1997 to 2018, US players won 44/84 majors.  Everyone else won 37/84.
  • From 1962 to 1983, US players won 64/84 majors.  Everyone else won 17/84.

what about the other 3?

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I think there is a sense from the average golf fan that Jack was kind of like Wilt playing against the old NBA......whereas Tiger is having to play against the new NBA...if that kind of makes sense...Jack had a few Bill Russel's etc.....but Tiger (at least now) has a bunch of mini Tiger's to contend with...

when Tiger made golf cool....he also spawned a new generation of his eventual competition......over the last 20+ years, some of the really great young athletes who would have maybe gravitated to football, baseball, basketball, etc.....now play golf.....

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3 minutes ago, belljr said:

what about the other 3?

 

Just now, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Not sure what the Q is, but I did fix my math.

 

5 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Another view:

  • From 1997 to 2018, US players won 44/84 majors.  Everyone else won 37/88 (42%).
  • From 1962 to 1983, US players won 64/84 majors.  Everyone else won 17/88 (19%).

A difference of almost exactly one major a year.

You have totally lost me.    From 1997 to 2018 - 44/84 US players won - but others won 37/88 in that time frame?   How did the US play 4 less majors AND 44 & 37 is 81.   Who won the others?

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9 minutes ago, Dinsy Ejotuz said:

Another view:

  • From 1997 to 2018, US players won 51/88 majors.  Everyone else won 37/88 (42%).
  • From 1962 to 1983, US players won 71/88 majors.  Everyone else won 17/88 (19%).

A difference of almost exactly one major a year.

 

Edited by Dinsy Ejotuz
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47 minutes ago, Stinkin Ref said:

I think there is a sense from the average golf fan that Jack was kind of like Wilt playing against the old NBA......whereas Tiger is having to play against the new NBA...if that kind of makes sense...Jack had a few Bill Russel's etc.....but Tiger (at least now) has a bunch of mini Tiger's to contend with...

when Tiger made golf cool....he also spawned a new generation of his eventual competition......over the last 20+ years, some of the really great young athletes who would have maybe gravitated to football, baseball, basketball, etc.....now play golf.....

:goodposting:

 

Dustin Johnson >>>>> Lee Trevino

Koepka >>> Johnny Miller

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1 hour ago, TripItUp said:

:goodposting:

 

Dustin Johnson >>>>> Lee Trevino

Koepka >>> Johnny Miller

IMO this can't even be seriously debated.  there are 20 guys on Tour that can win any tournament or major.  there are another 20-40 good enough to beat Tiger or any of the other top guys on any given weekend.  The Tour is so deep.

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Y'all are doing some solid work here, but honestly the Peter Thomson story alone should be enough. He was ten years older than Jack.  He won five British Opens between 1954 and 1965.  During that same stretch he skipped the Masters and the US Open more often than he played in them and never played in the PGA.  If that doesn't convince you that it was a different era and the majors were drawing from a more narrow talent pool, I don't know what will.

The other thing about the majors is that even if the Euros, Aussies and Kiwis were playing in them in the latter half of of Nicklaus' career, they were doing so at a disadvantage because they didn't play many other PGA Tour events, so they weren't as comfortable with American golf courses.  That's changed significantly in the last 20 years. Now most of them just move here because that's where the money is and they want to practice and play here. Even guys who don't like Francisco Molinari come here for 15+ events a year. In Nicklaus' era a guy like Molinari might not even play in some of the majors and if he did he would be at a disadvantage he doesn't face in this era.

 

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