no, I really can't. based on the info I've heard and the responses in this thread, I think he'd probably be better off letting this issue drop. I don't see how this incident will make him boatloads of money.
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Housing While Black (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Fennis
- Start date
Buckychudd
Footballguy
You are seriously objecting to my suggestion that officers should arrest only people who may have done something illegal?
Thorn
Footballguy
Holy crap pickles was right!!
Buckychudd
Footballguy
Gates raises his public profile and can demand more money for speaking engagements, book deals, etc. I think you're being intentionally obtuse.
timschochet
Footballguy
Ha! No relation. And I'm hardly the gloom and doomer that guy is.
Nigel
Footballguy
Oh, I'm not talking about reality - I'm talking about his deluded motivations. In the long run this will cost him money.
not at all.sure, now he's more famous so I'll grant you that. but, his image isn't exactly getting a big boost here...and I firmly believe that making PBS documentaries on racial profiling is not a straight path to inevitable profits, especially if he focuses the film on this incident.
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johnnycakes
Footballguy
OK, from what I had heard on the radio I had understood it to be night time. The newspaper reports confirm it to be daytime. Still, from what I have heard of what he said to the cop, all I know is I wouldn't have dared mouth off like that... a white guy probably would have gotten beaten up instead of arrested, maybe. Of course, they really don't dare do that to a black guy.he got home at noon.
Before there's any evidence of criminal wrongdoing, it's appropriate to give people the benefit of the doubt, IMO.That case was great because you had the law-and-order types suddenly concerned about the rights of the accused, and you had a lot of people on the left suddenly wanting to do away with the presumption of innocence. It exposed an awful lot of hypocrisy on both sides.
Witz
Footballguy
No. I am objecting to your suggestion that the police had zero grounds to arrest Gates when in fact, they clearly did. An individual can be arrested by the police when the police make a determination based on their knowledge of the law that the individual in question has broken the law. In most cases, it isn't always black and white (no pun intended) and it subject to interpretation. Just because one is arrested does not mean they are guilty. It means that they were engaged in an act that could be interpreted to be illegal (and thus the basis for our legal system). Just because the charges were dropped does not mean that Gates was engaged in something that warranted an arrest at that moment in time. Gates was belligerent to the police from the moment they showed up. For you to argue that any other way is ludicrous.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
The longer he can stay in the news the higher his speaking engagement fees will go, and I guarantee that they went up because of this incident.
Screaming "you are going to pay for this" is not a physical threat. The statute is interpreted to mean, essentially, inciting a riot. There's just no way to make that stick against a kooky old man yelling non-violent stuff from his front porch.
Being belligerent is not illegal.I'm not saying that he's factually innocent of disorderly conduct because the chargers were dropped. I'm saying he's factually innocent because he didn't do anything that even arguably amounted to criminal conduct under MA law. (Which is why the charges were dropped.)
do you think his actions here were primarily motivated by profit?The longer he can stay in the news the higher his speaking engagement fees will go, and I guarantee that they went up because of this incident.
timschochet
Footballguy
This article by a very prominent African American intellectual illustrates what I was referring to earlier:
What Do You Call a Black Man with a Ph.D.?
The Skip Gates arrest shows how little some features of the national racial landscape have changed over time.
By Lawrence Bobo
Ain’t nothing post-racial about the United States of America.
I say this because my best friend, a well-known, middle-aged, affluent, black man, was arrested on his own front porch after showing his identification to a white police officer who was responding to a burglary call. Though the officer quickly determined that my friend was the rightful resident of the house and knew by then that there was no burglary in progress, he decided to place my friend in handcuffs, put him in the back of a police cruiser and have him fingerprinted and fully “processed,” at our local police station.
This did not happen at night. It happened in the middle of the day. It did not happen to a previously unknown urban black male. It happened to internationally known, 58-year-old Henry Louis “Skip” Gates Jr. I am writing about this event because it is an outrage, because I want others to know that it is an outrage, and because, even now, I have not fully processed the meaning of it.
Here’s what I understand to have happened: The officer in my friend’s case was really motivated by a simmering cauldron of anger that my friend had not immediately complied with his initial command to step out of the house. In hindsight, that was the right thing to do since I think my friend could have been physically injured by this police officer (if not worse) had he, in fact, stepped out of his home before showing his ID. Black Americans recall all too well that Amadou Diallo reached for his identification in a public space when confronted by police and, 42 gun shots later, became the textbook case of deadly race-infected police bias.
Skip is one of the most readily recognized black men in America and the most broadly influential black scholar of this generation. And yes, in the liberal, politically correct cocoon of “the people’s Republic of Cambridge,” a famous, wealthy and important black man was arrested on his front porch. The ultimate charge? “Disorderly conduct.” Whatever that means.
Even before the charge were dropped Tuesday, I knew in my bones that this officer was wrong. I knew in my bones that this situation was about the level of deference from a black male that a white cop expects. I say this even though I did not see the events themselves unfold. What I do know with certainty is that the officer, even by his own written report, understood that he was dealing with a lawful resident of the house when he made the arrest. That same report makes it clear that at the time of the arrest, the officer was no longer concerned about the report of a “burglary in progress” involving “two black males.” No, by this point we’re talking about something else entirely.
Maybe this “situation” had something to do with Harvard University and social class. It is possible that one element of what happened here involved a policeman with working-class roots who faced an opportunity to “level the playing field” with a famous and successful Harvard professor. But even if class mattered, it did so mostly because of how, in this situation, it was bound up with race.
Imagine the scenario. An influential man, in his own home, is ordered to step outside by a policeman. Naturally and without disrespect he asks “Why?” or perhaps “Who are you?” The officer says words to the effect, “I’m responding to a burglary report. Step outside now!”
To which, our confident man, in his own home, says, “No. This is my house. I live here. I work for the university, and the university manages this property.” The response prompts the officer to demand identification. “Fine,” our resident says, and he pulls out two forms of identification from his wallet.
The officer now knows with high certainty that he is dealing with the legitimate resident of the home. Does he ask, “Is everything alright, sir? We had a report of a burglary.” No, he does not. Does he say, “I’m sorry, sir, if I frightened you before. We had a report of a burglary, and all they said was ‘two black men at this address.’ You can understand my concern when I first got to the house?”
No, he didn’t do that either. He also could have disengaged by walking away. But no, he didn’t do that either.
This officer continued to insist that my friend step outside. By now, it is clear to my friend that the officer has, well, “an attitude problem.” So, as I suspect would happen with any influential, successful person, in their own home, who has provided authoritative identification to a policeman would do in this situation: My friend says, “I want your name and badge number.” The cop says nothing sensible in response but continues to wait at the door.
The request for the officer’s name and badge number is pressed again. No response. Social scientists have plenty of hard data showing that African Americans, across the social-class spectrum, are deeply distrustful of the police. The best research suggests that this perception has substantial roots in direct personal encounters with police that individuals felt were discriminatory or motivated by racism. But this perception of bias also rests on a shared collective knowledge of a history of discriminatory treatment of blacks by police and of social policies with built-in forms of racial bias (i.e., stiffer sentences for use of crack versus powder cocaine).
In the age of Obama, however, with all the talk of post-racial comity, you might have thought what happened to Skip Gates was an impossibility. Even the deepest race cynic—picture comedian Dave Chappelle as “Conspiracy Brother” from the movie Undercover Brother—couldn’t predict such an event. But, I will say that when I moved into the same affluent area as Gates, I wondered whether someone might mistakenly report me, a black man, for breaking into my own house in a largely white neighborhood and what I would have to do to prove that the house actually belonged to me if the police showed up at the door.
I remember joking with my wife that maybe I should keep a copy of the mortgage papers and deed in the front foyer, just in case. I do now. And it is no longer a joke.
There is no way to completely erase and undo what has been done. And there is, indeed, a larger lesson here about the problem of racial bias and misuse of discretion by police that still, all too often, works against blacks, especially poor blacks. If Skip Gates can be arrested on his front porch and end up in handcuffs in a police cruiser then, sadly, there, but for the grace of God, goes every other black man in America. That is one sad statement, and it should also be enough to end all this post-racial hogwash.
Maybe events will prove my cynicism and anger unwarranted. Perhaps the officer involved will be fully held to account for his actions. Perhaps Gates will hear the apology he so richly deserves to hear. Perhaps a review of training, policy and practice by police in my fair city and many others will take place and move us closer to a day of bias-free policing. If you’re inclined to believe all that will happen, then I’ve got a shiny, new, post-racial narrative I’d be happy to sell.
Lawrence Bobo is the W.E.B. Du Bois Professor of the Social Sciences at Harvard University.
What Do You Call a Black Man with a Ph.D.?
The Skip Gates arrest shows how little some features of the national racial landscape have changed over time.
By Lawrence Bobo
Ain’t nothing post-racial about the United States of America.
I say this because my best friend, a well-known, middle-aged, affluent, black man, was arrested on his own front porch after showing his identification to a white police officer who was responding to a burglary call. Though the officer quickly determined that my friend was the rightful resident of the house and knew by then that there was no burglary in progress, he decided to place my friend in handcuffs, put him in the back of a police cruiser and have him fingerprinted and fully “processed,” at our local police station.
This did not happen at night. It happened in the middle of the day. It did not happen to a previously unknown urban black male. It happened to internationally known, 58-year-old Henry Louis “Skip” Gates Jr. I am writing about this event because it is an outrage, because I want others to know that it is an outrage, and because, even now, I have not fully processed the meaning of it.
Here’s what I understand to have happened: The officer in my friend’s case was really motivated by a simmering cauldron of anger that my friend had not immediately complied with his initial command to step out of the house. In hindsight, that was the right thing to do since I think my friend could have been physically injured by this police officer (if not worse) had he, in fact, stepped out of his home before showing his ID. Black Americans recall all too well that Amadou Diallo reached for his identification in a public space when confronted by police and, 42 gun shots later, became the textbook case of deadly race-infected police bias.
Skip is one of the most readily recognized black men in America and the most broadly influential black scholar of this generation. And yes, in the liberal, politically correct cocoon of “the people’s Republic of Cambridge,” a famous, wealthy and important black man was arrested on his front porch. The ultimate charge? “Disorderly conduct.” Whatever that means.
Even before the charge were dropped Tuesday, I knew in my bones that this officer was wrong. I knew in my bones that this situation was about the level of deference from a black male that a white cop expects. I say this even though I did not see the events themselves unfold. What I do know with certainty is that the officer, even by his own written report, understood that he was dealing with a lawful resident of the house when he made the arrest. That same report makes it clear that at the time of the arrest, the officer was no longer concerned about the report of a “burglary in progress” involving “two black males.” No, by this point we’re talking about something else entirely.
Maybe this “situation” had something to do with Harvard University and social class. It is possible that one element of what happened here involved a policeman with working-class roots who faced an opportunity to “level the playing field” with a famous and successful Harvard professor. But even if class mattered, it did so mostly because of how, in this situation, it was bound up with race.
Imagine the scenario. An influential man, in his own home, is ordered to step outside by a policeman. Naturally and without disrespect he asks “Why?” or perhaps “Who are you?” The officer says words to the effect, “I’m responding to a burglary report. Step outside now!”
To which, our confident man, in his own home, says, “No. This is my house. I live here. I work for the university, and the university manages this property.” The response prompts the officer to demand identification. “Fine,” our resident says, and he pulls out two forms of identification from his wallet.
The officer now knows with high certainty that he is dealing with the legitimate resident of the home. Does he ask, “Is everything alright, sir? We had a report of a burglary.” No, he does not. Does he say, “I’m sorry, sir, if I frightened you before. We had a report of a burglary, and all they said was ‘two black men at this address.’ You can understand my concern when I first got to the house?”
No, he didn’t do that either. He also could have disengaged by walking away. But no, he didn’t do that either.
This officer continued to insist that my friend step outside. By now, it is clear to my friend that the officer has, well, “an attitude problem.” So, as I suspect would happen with any influential, successful person, in their own home, who has provided authoritative identification to a policeman would do in this situation: My friend says, “I want your name and badge number.” The cop says nothing sensible in response but continues to wait at the door.
The request for the officer’s name and badge number is pressed again. No response. Social scientists have plenty of hard data showing that African Americans, across the social-class spectrum, are deeply distrustful of the police. The best research suggests that this perception has substantial roots in direct personal encounters with police that individuals felt were discriminatory or motivated by racism. But this perception of bias also rests on a shared collective knowledge of a history of discriminatory treatment of blacks by police and of social policies with built-in forms of racial bias (i.e., stiffer sentences for use of crack versus powder cocaine).
In the age of Obama, however, with all the talk of post-racial comity, you might have thought what happened to Skip Gates was an impossibility. Even the deepest race cynic—picture comedian Dave Chappelle as “Conspiracy Brother” from the movie Undercover Brother—couldn’t predict such an event. But, I will say that when I moved into the same affluent area as Gates, I wondered whether someone might mistakenly report me, a black man, for breaking into my own house in a largely white neighborhood and what I would have to do to prove that the house actually belonged to me if the police showed up at the door.
I remember joking with my wife that maybe I should keep a copy of the mortgage papers and deed in the front foyer, just in case. I do now. And it is no longer a joke.
There is no way to completely erase and undo what has been done. And there is, indeed, a larger lesson here about the problem of racial bias and misuse of discretion by police that still, all too often, works against blacks, especially poor blacks. If Skip Gates can be arrested on his front porch and end up in handcuffs in a police cruiser then, sadly, there, but for the grace of God, goes every other black man in America. That is one sad statement, and it should also be enough to end all this post-racial hogwash.
Maybe events will prove my cynicism and anger unwarranted. Perhaps the officer involved will be fully held to account for his actions. Perhaps Gates will hear the apology he so richly deserves to hear. Perhaps a review of training, policy and practice by police in my fair city and many others will take place and move us closer to a day of bias-free policing. If you’re inclined to believe all that will happen, then I’ve got a shiny, new, post-racial narrative I’d be happy to sell.
Lawrence Bobo is the W.E.B. Du Bois Professor of the Social Sciences at Harvard University.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Gates may have realized it would not look good if he was no cooperating and started to grandstand to draw the attention away from himself.Anyway..this whole situation is overblown. This is just a very minor incident and a moment of confusion for all involved. Basically..a non-story.
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Fennis
Footballguy
Another race baiting reference.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
Buckychudd
Footballguy
No. But he's got an opportunity now, especially after the president's speech last night....I'll be surprised if he doesn't ride it.Aaron Rudnicki said:do you think his actions here were primarily motivated by profit?Buckychudd said:Aaron Rudnicki said:
Fennis
Footballguy
bump
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Whether the charge would stick or not (it was dropped anyway, right?) is irrelevant and it's a far cry from what this has turned into.Making a wrong call on a borderline decision about whether or not this was really disorderly conduct is one thing. That happens and is not a big deal.That's not what this is about though. He's being called a racist and this is being used as evidence of racial profiling. There is absolutely no reason to think this could possibly be the case.Maybe the arrest shouldn't have happened, but it was certainly borderline and it sounds like the cop was respectful in making the arrest. Probably happens quite often when someone's verbally abusive and uncooperative with a cop.Making this into a race issue is just crazy.Maurile Tremblay said:
Harry Manback
Footballguy
I stopped reading here.I am far from a racist, but damn this is pissing me off.timschochet said:
The thing is, this incident is going to create a heck of a lot more racists that it will stop racism.
Blacks acting like this is fuel to the fire.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Link?Maurile Tremblay said:
Nigel
Footballguy
Because Obama says it's so on TV.
Fennis
Footballguy
So in your mind Gates was looking to what spark a race war? Get beaten so he could sue the city? Or just looking for trouble with with cops he happens to come across?pretty clear, even by the professor's own account, that that's what was going on here.Fennis said:
Fennis
Footballguy
Ah, this is a new thing. Got it, thanks.Because Obama says it's so on TV.
Adebisi
Footballguy
Why don't you just tell us what's on your mind, Fennis?
Witz
Footballguy
You talking in circles here. In your opinion what he did was not disorderly. In quite a number of other individuals (including the police on hand) opinions, he was disorderly. I think I'll side with the police's opinion on this because a). they were there and neither you or I were & b). this is what they do day in and day out. 'You are going to pay for this' is not inciteful or a physical threat? What would any reasonable individual believe a man who was handcuffed shouting that phrase would mean? You are really reaching here in an effort to make your point.Maurile Tremblay said:
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
When did Crowley beat him?So in your mind Gates was looking to what spark a race war? Get beaten so he could sue the city? Or just looking for trouble with with cops he happens to come across?pretty clear, even by the professor's own account, that that's what was going on here.Fennis said:
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
And yet the author (and close friend) conveniently fails to mention Gates' reported tirade against the arresting Officer. A tirade which ultimately led to his arrest.timschochet said:
Fennis
Footballguy
I am wondering what the general consensus of the thread is, in particular the people putting the sole blame on Gates.
Nigel
Footballguy
The guy immediately went into "you're a racist" mode when a cop came to his house, to protect his property and it's occupants, which happen to be him - refused to comply with by-the-book requests for cooperation and answers to simple questions. Not sure he was looking to start an all out race war, but yeah, he was looking for a fight.So in your mind Gates was looking to what spark a race war? Get beaten so he could sue the city? Or just looking for trouble with with cops he happens to come across?pretty clear, even by the professor's own account, that that's what was going on here.Fennis said:
Fennis
Footballguy
He didnt. Nigel called Gates a race baiter (which is at best laughable) and I am asking what is the motivaton of being a race baiter in this instance?When did Crowley beat him?So in your mind Gates was looking to what spark a race war? Get beaten so he could sue the city? Or just looking for trouble with with cops he happens to come across?pretty clear, even by the professor's own account, that that's what was going on here.Fennis said:
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
For one of the most liberal cities in America, Boston sure is a city full of discrimination.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
Aww ####, I'll bite on this.Black people feel the police treat them unfairly because a lot of times they do.Is there such thing as racial profiling? Yes. Is it right? No.Is this incident an example of racial profiling? No.
jonessed
Footballguy
Attention. Save your faux outrage for the harder ones. You're burning through your credibility too fast.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
idn't read the article at all, did you?
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Fennis
Footballguy
1) I have no cred to burn through2) I am not faux outraged or even outraged. I'm not even angry. He is, however, clearly wrong.
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
Take the heat off of his "friend" Obama in his time of need?
Witz
Footballguy
Quick question - based on everything we have heard so far, what did the police do incorrectly in this situation?
Furious Styles
Footballguy
it happened in Cambridge you moron, perhaps the most liberal city in America. Gates was being a complete jerk from all eyewittnessed accounts.
Fennis
Footballguy
Thanks. I'm personally torn on the issue and undecided, although I do think race played a factor, how much I do not know. I know Gates could have diffused the situation if he behaved differently. But so could have the cop, and it the cop's responsibility to manage the situation, which he clearly did poorly.
Giantseasonticketholder
Whammy
How do we know this?
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