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Housing While Black (1 Viewer)

Aaron Rudnicki said:
Obama clearly qualified his statement by saying he was friends with the guy and was probably biased.If it happened to a buddy of yours, I'm sure you'd think the cops acted stupidly as well.
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Well, if it happened to certain friends, I'm sure I'd think it was well-deserved.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I've read bits and pieces of the stories posted in this thread, and they seem to have contradictory details. Can someone who's followed this more closely answer these questions?

1. Did Gates show the officer his ID when asked? (Is this point undisputed?)

2. If Gates did show the officer his ID, did the cop then have any reason to suspect that Gates had committed a crime?

3. Disorderly conduct? That's undisputedly a BS charge, right? You're allowed to yell mean things at people; that's not illegal, even if the people you're yelling at are cops. You are a boor for doing so, but not a criminal. The chargers were dropped, of course. The cops knew all along that the charges would be dropped, right? So they charged Gates simply to harass him, and not to enforce the law?

If the answer to question number one is no, that changes things. The police may have had probable cause to detain him; and if he didn't cooperate, to arrest him on suspicion of breaking and entering.

But breaking and entering is the only crime that might have been committed. Disorderly conduct for yelling mean things is absurd.
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As usual, MT gets to the very meat of the matter. Some big and important discrepancies in the two accounts. But I have trouble believing that the cops came in with a chip on their shoulders when the door was answered by an elderly, well-dressed and articulate gentleman, regardless of his race. And if he offered them proof of ID in a prompt manner, as he indicated, then I find it even more difficult to believe that they behaved irresponsibly.The good professor doesn't appear to have used very good judgment in this situation.

 
JetsWillWin said:
Harry Manback said:
Should they have? No, probably not.
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Yeah, I think it's definitely fair to question whether or not this was a valid arrest, but that's not really the point.
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Why isn't that the point?
The point is, valid or invalid, was the arrest made because Gates is black?
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Well, that's a point. If the arrest was invalid, and if the arresting officer knew at the time that the arrest was invalid but was just acting like a thug, I suppose it makes a difference whether the officer would have acted like a thug to everybody, or just to black people. (Although I don't really know which is worse.)But since it's impossible to know whether race was a factor, I personally think the more interesting point is whether there was legally valid cause for the arrest.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
Witz said:
Why is this part even being argued? Not only are there police comments that he was yelling, but also neighbor testimony that he was yelling.
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because it seems to be a big piece of the discrepancy between the two stories.how loud was the yelling?
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One witness is quoted as saying "Prof. Gates was yellin' at ten, ramblin' on about "racist this, racist that, and your Moma and whatnot" and I thought "ain't no way nobody can yell louder than this" - then the sonuva##### turned it up to eleven, at which point I done blocked my ears and run back in the house."
 
Me? If I am approached by two black officers, I refuse to cooperate initially, finally cooperate, then launch a tirade about how they are racist, holding down the white man, insulting them, I certainly wouldn't expect to walk away scott free. Especially after they gave me a direct order to calm down and stop yelling.

In fact, if I did that to two white cops I'd feel the same way. Race isn't a factor. Being a dooshbag is the mitigating factor here.

 
"ya, I'll speak with your mama outside."

Is that an educated Harvard professor speaking or a 5 year old? I don't even know what that means other than that it was supposed to be disrecpectful. I can not imagine speaking to an officer like that (in my own home or anywhere else). If there was a cop at my house, even if I thought he had no business being there, I would be polite and do whatever I thought necessary to just let him be on his way not antagonize him.

 
KnowledgeReignsSupreme said:
PinkydaPimp said:
sadly i can relate. i was helping a buddy move INTO his house. Someone called the police on us. When approached and questioned by the officer we asked if it was normal that someone breaks in and decides to move stuff in!! lol. moving while black isn't much fun either. :bow:
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How did you act towards them when approached?
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i laughed in their face because it was ridiculous. However, for a guy that has likely dealt with many incidents like this in his 50+ years, i can understand why he was so upset.
 
The Z Machine said:
Nigel said:
timschochet said:
Since I still don't get exactly why he was arrested, I believe that racism could have played a part here.
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Tim, at lunchtime today, go downtown and find a cop. Then start yelling at him, in front of other cops and civilians, and be sure to insult his mother. Then when he warns you to stop, keep going! And call him a racist! :bow:
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You should do it in your own home after NOT inviting a police officer into the home and showing him your identification. That would be more acceptable.I still stand by my previous remarks. Those police officers needed to back down and be more professional. It didn't reflect well to give Dr. Gates exactly what he wanted, publicity.

Part of being an officer (I would hope) is learning when and how to extricate yourself from a situation that could reflect poorly on you or your department. Sure it's not the foremost thing in training, but it should be an aspect of officer training. Every other profession that deals with the public has this sort of training, including doctors, EMTs, firefighters, etc. Why wouldn't the officers simply leave Dr. Gates there to shout at their departing cruisers?

DW, can you chime in on this sort of thing?
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Okay, but first I'll make sure there was a string of burglaries in my neighborhood. Then, I'll have some random dude smash my door open with his shoulder at 1:00am. Then, when a policeman responds to the scene after a 911 call to protect my property and the welfare of those who live there (me) I'll act like a ####### instigating ######## and see where that gets me. :goodposting:
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I've read bits and pieces of the stories posted in this thread, and they seem to have contradictory details. Can someone who's followed this more closely answer these questions?

1. Did Gates show the officer his ID when asked? (Is this point undisputed?)

2. If Gates did show the officer his ID, did the cop then have any reason to suspect that Gates had committed a crime?

3. Disorderly conduct? That's undisputedly a BS charge, right? You're allowed to yell mean things at people; that's not illegal, even if the people you're yelling at are cops. You are a boor for doing so, but not a criminal. The chargers were dropped, of course. The cops knew all along that the charges would be dropped, right? So they charged Gates simply to harass him, and not to enforce the law?

If the answer to question number one is no, that changes things. The police may have had probable cause to detain him; and if he didn't cooperate, to arrest him on suspicion of breaking and entering.

But breaking and entering is the only crime that might have been committed. Disorderly conduct for yelling mean things is absurd.
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Here's a link to Gates's account of what happened: The Root. It's too long to cut-and-paste.I don't have any legal training so I'm not qualified to say whether his arrest had any legal justification. But I am real sure from reading Gates's own side of the story that he has a clearly prejudiced view of police officers and instantly decided to turn this into a racial issue without giving it a moment's thought.

All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’
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Seeing as how Gates and his driver really did break into the house in broad daylight, by his own admission, it's obviously not ridiculous for the cop to be there. It's not as if the cop is clairvoyant and magically knows that Gates is actually the resident and was breaking into his own place. Investigating this sort of thing is what police officers are supposed to do. But I guess Harvard professors are supposed to be immune from law enforcement. IMO, the way Gates chose to handle this is almost as funny as Ko Simpson's arrest. ("I am Ko Simpson of the Buffalo Bills. I am worth millions.")

 
Philo Beddoe said:
Crowley teaches racial profiling class at the academy
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Crowley by all accounts seems like a "well respected" officer.Police had been called to Gates' Cambridge home after a passer-by saw two men trying to get into the house. According to the report, a woman said she saw a man "wedging his shoulder into the front door as if to pry the door open."

Cambridge police superior officers came to Crowley's defense after Gates accused the officer of lying and fabricating a police report that detailed Gates' arrest on disorderly conduct charges. The report described the incident as a tumultuous and frightening confrontation with police. Crowley repeatedly tried to answer Gates, but was interrupted when Gates started yelling at him and making threats.

The Cambridge Police Superior Officers Association said it reviewed the arrest and expressed its "full and unqualified support for the actions taken by Sgt. Crowley."

Seems like much to do about nothing. Move along folks...

 
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The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.

 
Here's another humorous nugget from Gates:

As a college professor, I want to make this a teaching experience. I am going to devote my considerable resources, intellectual and otherwise, to making sure this doesn’t happen again. I’m thinking about making a documentary film about racial profiling, and I’m in talks with PBS about that.
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I agree that this is a good teachable moment. The lesson is that you should stop and think for a second before instantly playing the race card. Somehow I don't think that's the lesson Gates is taking from this, though. I'm also not sure what this has to do with racial profiling. Somebody called the police to report a break-in. The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person. (I'm pretty sure black people deserve to have their property protected just as well as mine). The responding officer didn't target just the first black guy he happened to encounter; he questioned the black guy who was actually milling around in the broken-into house that he was sent to investigate. This episode is sort of the opposite of racial profiling. It's actually a case of a police officer investing a reported crime in progress and questioning the person who clearly the most likely to be the culprit. Note that Gates was the culprit -- he just hadn't done anything wrong because it's legal to break into your own house.

It's sort of amazing that someone of Gates's considerable resources, intellectual and otherwise, hasn't stopped to reflect on that yet.

 
Harry Manback said:
Pretty sure that the cops arrested him out of spite, but it was done legally. ie: they didn't have to arrest him, but had a legal right to do so. Should they have? No, probably not. Do I blame them? No, I don't. In hindsight was it stupid to arrest him? Probably. Should Obama have said he thought it was stupid? Probably not. Did Gates need to be put in his place? Yes, and he still does it looks like.My own take.
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X2
 
At the heart of the matter, IMO, in terms of this thread, is that there are people here, mostly conservative, who feel strongly the need to justify the actions of the police in this matter because any other interpretation would conflict with their world view. Said world view being that African Americans complain far too much about racism when it really doesn't exist.

There are also people here who are going to side with the professor no matter what actually happened, though there are less of these. (I suspect that if we were in a predominantly African American discussion board, this would be the prevelant opinion.) I admit, because of my own predispositions, to being this way myself, and I wrote some things earlier that I probably should not have without further information. This is a weakness of mine. I get very upset when I read people just immediately taking the opposite side without info, and then I make the same mistake myself. Ivan is right when he points out my hypocisy in this. Mea culpa.

There are many facts to this case that make very little sense to me. If the police report is true, then Gates is lying, I was wrong, and no racism occurred here. If Gates is telling the truth, the police are lying to cover up their racism. The fact that witnesses contradict Gates seems to give the police side more credibility. If so, then I am very disappointed in the professor and his supporters. But what's even more galling to me is that many here will use this incident to continue on with their worldview: that African Americans exaggerate racism or simply make it up. Because I believe there is serious racism that needs to be exposed, I hope Gates is telling the truth.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Seeing as how Gates and his driver really did break into the house in broad daylight, by his own admission, it's obviously not ridiculous for the cop to be there. It's not as if the cop is clairvoyant and magically knows that Gates is actually the resident and was breaking into his own place. Investigating this sort of thing is what police officers are supposed to do. But I guess Harvard professors are supposed to be immune from law enforcement.
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Of course the cops should have responded to the call and investigated the matter.I've got no problem with the fact that the officer asked for his ID.Apparently, Gates showed his ID and the cop was satisfied that Gates hadn't committed any crime. At that point, Gates started acting like a complete tool, yelling nasty things at the cops. Which is not illegal.In response, if the cops had been off-duty, maybe they could have roughed him up a little. (I wouldn't really approve of that; but it'd be less bad if they were off-duty than on-duty.) When they are in uniform, however, they are not supposed to use force without legal justification. That seems to be what they did by making an arrest on a BS charge.Gates was a tool, and if he hadn't been, he probably wouldn't have been arrested. But that's a little like saying that a woman wouldn't have been harassed if she hadn't dressed so provocatively. Both sides acted wrongly, or at least imprudently. But only one side acted contrary to the law.
 
jonessed said:
The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.
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According to this it sounds like Gates didn't have to provide jack squat
 
Thorn said:
timschochet said:
It was the police who stated that Gates was acting like a jerk, right? Gates himself denies it. Every description I heard of Gates is that he is a small, mild mannered elderly man who uses a cane to walk. Because of this unanimous description, the cops' story made little sense to me, and I figured (reasonably) it was being fabricated after the fact to cover up what is both an embarrassing and obviously racist situation. I have made most of my comments based on this assumption.Yet when I read the comments in this thread, many of you simply take the police at their word and make all of your assumptions based on that. And again, this in itself is indicative of the problem. White people in general trust the police and believe them to be telling the truth in most instances. Black people do not. I think Blacks have it right in terms of their own interactions with the police.
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Please. How is it "obviously racist" when there was a 911 call? What's a cop to do?"Sargent, we've got a call of a possible B&E in progress at this address.""Sorry dispatch, can't investigate that one. Individual on the scene claims to live there, and is black.""Understood. Carry on."
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:devil: or he could call it into the station:"We've got a black man claiming he owns the home in question on this B&E dispatch call. How should we proceed, Captain""Did you ask to see his ID?""We did, he told us to go F ourselves""Get out of there quickly! We don't need this PR"
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
IvanKaramazov said:
Seeing as how Gates and his driver really did break into the house in broad daylight, by his own admission, it's obviously not ridiculous for the cop to be there. It's not as if the cop is clairvoyant and magically knows that Gates is actually the resident and was breaking into his own place. Investigating this sort of thing is what police officers are supposed to do. But I guess Harvard professors are supposed to be immune from law enforcement.
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Of course the cops should have responded to the call and investigated the matter.I've got no problem with the fact that the officer asked for his ID.

Apparently, Gates showed his ID and the cop was satisfied that Gates hadn't committed any crime. At that point, Gates started acting like a complete tool, yelling nasty things at the cops. Which is not illegal.

In response, if the cops had been off-duty, maybe they could have roughed him up a little. (I wouldn't really approve of that; but it'd be less bad if they were off-duty than on-duty.) When they are in uniform, however, they are not supposed to use force without legal justification. That seems to be what they did by making an arrest on a BS charge.

Gates was a tool, and if he hadn't been, he probably wouldn't have been arrested. But that's a little like saying that a woman wouldn't have been harassed if she hadn't dressed so provocatively. Both sides acted wrongly, or at least imprudently. But only one side acted contrary to the law.
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I have no problem with this analysis. It doesn't have to be an either-or thing where either Gates is 100% at fault or the cop is 100% at fault. I just don't have enough information to be able to say whether the cop did anything wrong, but I know Gates was being a jerk. I'll have to leave the legality of the arrest up to the people in this thread who have a better grasp on the law than I do.
 
IvanKaramazov said:
All of a sudden, there was a policeman on my porch. And I thought, ‘This is strange.’ So I went over to the front porch still holding the phone, and I said ‘Officer, can I help you?’ And he said, ‘Would you step outside onto the porch.’ And the way he said it, I knew he wasn’t canvassing for the police benevolent association. All the hairs stood up on the back of my neck, and I realized that I was in danger. And I said to him no, out of instinct. I said, ‘No, I will not.’

My lawyers later told me that that was a good move and had I walked out onto the porch he could have arrested me for breaking and entering. He said ‘I’m here to investigate a 911 call for breaking and entering into this house.’ And I said ‘That’s ridiculous because this happens to be my house. And I’m a Harvard professor.’
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That's insane. Had he stepped outside, identified himself and provided ID he never would have been arrested.
 
Franknbeans said:
jonessed said:
The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.
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According to this it sounds like Gates didn't have to provide jack squat
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Well, it says that the cop can't make you identify yourself with probable cause.Given that somebody reported a break-in, and the physical evidence (the lock on the door being broken) was consistent with that, I think the officer did have probable cause to detain Gates in order to investigate. (But I'm not a crim lawyer.)

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I have no problem with this analysis. It doesn't have to be an either-or thing where either Gates is 100% at fault or the cop is 100% at fault. I just don't have enough information to be able to say whether the cop did anything wrong, but I know Gates was being a jerk. I'll have to leave the legality of the arrest up to the people in this thread who have a better grasp on the law than I do.
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In retrospect, I suspect you are right about this.
 
Franknbeans said:
jonessed said:
The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.
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According to this it sounds like Gates didn't have to provide jack squat
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If it was my house I would have been appreciative that someone called it in and a cop promptly showed up. Once there the cop couldn't just leave without knowing it was Gates' house. Why be a #### about it?
 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
I've read bits and pieces of the stories posted in this thread, and they seem to have contradictory details. Can someone who's followed this more closely answer these questions?

1. Did Gates show the officer his ID when asked? (Is this point undisputed?)

2. If Gates did show the officer his ID, did the cop then have any reason to suspect that Gates had committed a crime?

If the answer to question number one is no, that changes things. The police may have had probable cause to detain him; and if he didn't cooperate, to arrest him on suspicion of breaking and entering.

But breaking and entering is the only crime that might have been committed. Disorderly conduct for yelling mean things is absurd.
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the police report says that Gates showed him a Harvard ID and that the officer believed Gates was indeed the resident. Doesn't sound like there was any other potential crime to be concerned about here.Report narrative says the cop was walking toward the sidewalk when Gates kept yelling to everyone that the cop was a racist. Since a large crowd had formed and Gates was insulting/threatening him, it sounds like the cop warned him and then arrested him for disorderly conduct.
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As I understand it, Gates actually followed the officer outside of the house to continue berating him. He wasn't yelling at him from inside the house anymore. My guess is that the charge was dropped because of who Gates is, not because they truly felt that he didn't deserve the charge against him. Here's the general guidelines of a disorderly conduct charge in MA:

A disorderly person is defined as one who:

* with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or

* recklessly creates a risk thereof

* engages in fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or

* creates a hazard or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose.

Seems like from the officer's report as well as the report from the witnesses that we've heard from, Gates almost certainly engaged in threatening or tumultuous behavior and probably was creating a public annoyance by screaming outside of his house.

If I went out on my front lawn and started insulting a police officer's mom and screamed about how the police were racist, I'd probably get locked up in the loony bin.

 
Franknbeans said:
jonessed said:
The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.
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According to this it sounds like Gates didn't have to provide jack squat
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I read this earlier today too.
Gates initially refused to emerge from his home and provide identification. Was he required to?

No. There's nothing to stop an officer from requesting your presence on the front porch or asking you questions, but he cannot force you to identify yourself or come out of your house without probable cause. (The rules are different for drivers and immigrants, who are required to provide identification upon request.) If you don't feel like chatting, ask the officer whether you are free to go about your business. If he answers no, you are being detained, which means the officer must acknowledge and abide by your full menu of civil rights, including the famous Miranda warnings.
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Surely the officer has probable cause in this case, right? Somebody called to report that two black guys were breaking into this house. The officer arrives, finds that the house has been broken into, and two black guys are standing there. I'm not a lawyer or a police officer, but I would think this is pretty cut-and-dried.
 
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timschochet said:
At the heart of the matter, IMO, in terms of this thread, is that there are people here, mostly conservative, who feel strongly the need to justify the actions of the police in this matter because any other interpretation would conflict with their world view. Said world view being that African Americans complain far too much about racism when it really doesn't exist. There are also people here who are going to side with the professor no matter what actually happened, though there are less of these. (I suspect that if we were in a predominantly African American discussion board, this would be the prevelant opinion.) I admit, because of my own predispositions, to being this way myself, and I wrote some things earlier that I probably should not have without further information. This is a weakness of mine. I get very upset when I read people just immediately taking the opposite side without info, and then I make the same mistake myself. Ivan is right when he points out my hypocisy in this. Mea culpa.There are many facts to this case that make very little sense to me. If the police report is true, then Gates is lying, I was wrong, and no racism occurred here. If Gates is telling the truth, the police are lying to cover up their racism. The fact that witnesses contradict Gates seems to give the police side more credibility. If so, then I am very disappointed in the professor and his supporters. But what's even more galling to me is that many here will use this incident to continue on with their worldview: that African Americans exaggerate racism or simply make it up. Because I believe there is serious racism that needs to be exposed, I hope Gates is telling the truth.
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Timmy>Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you!I seriously think you are delusional.
 
timschochet said:
At the heart of the matter, IMO, in terms of this thread, is that there are people here, mostly conservative, who feel strongly the need to justify the actions of the police in this matter because any other interpretation would conflict with their world view. Said world view being that African Americans complain far too much about racism when it really doesn't exist.

There are also people here who are going to side with the professor no matter what actually happened, though there are less of these. (I suspect that if we were in a predominantly African American discussion board, this would be the prevelant opinion.) I admit, because of my own predispositions, to being this way myself, and I wrote some things earlier that I probably should not have without further information. This is a weakness of mine. I get very upset when I read people just immediately taking the opposite side without info, and then I make the same mistake myself. Ivan is right when he points out my hypocisy in this. Mea culpa.

There are many facts to this case that make very little sense to me. If the police report is true, then Gates is lying, I was wrong, and no racism occurred here. If Gates is telling the truth, the police are lying to cover up their racism. The fact that witnesses contradict Gates seems to give the police side more credibility. If so, then I am very disappointed in the professor and his supporters. But what's even more galling to me is that many here will use this incident to continue on with their worldview: that African Americans exaggerate racism or simply make it up. Because I believe there is serious racism that needs to be exposed, I hope Gates is telling the truth.
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Racism obviously exists. There's just no reason to think it had anything to do with this situation. At least not with the information that's been provided. Not that the information matters to you, the media, or our President.It sounds like a good cop is going to lose his job (at least) b/c this professor wants to make a name for himself. The President using it as an opportunity to grandstand isn't helping matters.

Also, if Gates is telling the truth, how do we know it would be exposing racism?

All it would really tell us is that this cop overreacts (in a non-violent way) when he's verbally abused during a B&E call.

 
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timschochet said:
But what's even more galling to me is that many here will use this incident to continue on with their worldview: that African Americans exaggerate racism or simply make it up. Because I believe there is serious racism that needs to be exposed, I hope Gates is telling the truth.
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This furthers my worldview that there are many #######s of different colors, including black ones that exaggerate racism.
 
IvanKaramazov said:
Here's another humorous nugget from Gates:

As a college professor, I want to make this a teaching experience. I am going to devote my considerable resources, intellectual and otherwise, to making sure this doesn’t happen again. I’m thinking about making a documentary film about racial profiling, and I’m in talks with PBS about that.
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I agree that this is a good teachable moment. The lesson is that you should stop and think for a second before instantly playing the race card. Somehow I don't think that's the lesson Gates is taking from this, though. I'm also not sure what this has to do with racial profiling. Somebody called the police to report a break-in. The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person. (I'm pretty sure black people deserve to have their property protected just as well as mine). The responding officer didn't target just the first black guy he happened to encounter; he questioned the black guy who was actually milling around in the broken-into house that he was sent to investigate. This episode is sort of the opposite of racial profiling. It's actually a case of a police officer investing a reported crime in progress and questioning the person who clearly the most likely to be the culprit. Note that Gates was the culprit -- he just hadn't done anything wrong because it's legal to break into your own house.

It's sort of amazing that someone of Gates's considerable resources, intellectual and otherwise, hasn't stopped to reflect on that yet.
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After Gates is done with his song and dance I'm betting Obama is going to regret linking himself to this on national TV.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
IvanKaramazov said:
The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person.
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Of course. But once he completes his investigation and concludes that no crime had been committed, he has a further duty not to make an arrest.
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:thumbup: Really?So Gates could have hit the officer over the head with a crowbar and the officer would have had a duty NOT to make an arrest? Really? I agree that the best action would have been to just let it go and leave. Obviously the Crowley could have let this one go and walked away. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Gates wasn't technically being disorderly. It certainly could have been handled better by Crowley, but this seems much more like a case of a cop getting upset when some nutjob treats him like crap and smears him with ugly insults in front of a large group of people rather than anything even remotely race related.
 
I hope that due to all this attention, someone actually breaks into his house one night, and the police don't respond, assuming it's the homeowner. I really, really do.

 
pollardsvision said:
It sounds like a good cop is going to lose his job (at least) b/c this professor wants to make a name for himself. The President using it as an opportunity to grandstand isn't helping matters.
Click to expand...
there's no way this guy loses his job - public opinion here is 95% with him - then again we're all racists in Boston so take that for what it's worth.
 
Whatever your feelings about this matter, I'm betting that it will be impossible to convince many African-Americans that this wasn't racism. First of all, according to polling, a majority of African-Americans in this country have either witnessed or been a victim of what they regard to be police mistreatment. Second, you have one of the most highly respected African American intellectuals in this nation, a Harvard professor, making this charge. It's almost a perfect storm. It's going to be like the Jena 6 only more pronounced, I believe.

 
Nigel said:
pollardsvision said:
It sounds like a good cop is going to lose his job (at least) b/c this professor wants to make a name for himself. The President using it as an opportunity to grandstand isn't helping matters.
Click to expand...
there's no way this guy loses his job - public opinion here is 95% with him - then again we're all racists in Boston so take that for what it's worth.
Click to expand...
I'm not a racist.I hate everyone equally.

 
Harry Manback said:
I hope that due to all this attention, someone actually breaks into his house one night, and the police don't respond, assuming it's the homeowner. I really, really do.
Click to expand...
Sadly, the irony is that the real racism will begin now that dozen or so racists in the Boston area know where this racebaiter lives.
 
Christo said:
timschochet said:
At the heart of the matter, IMO, in terms of this thread, is that there are people here, mostly conservative, who feel strongly the need to justify the actions of the police in this matter because any other interpretation would conflict with their world view. Said world view being that African Americans complain far too much about racism when it really doesn't exist. There are also people here who are going to side with the professor no matter what actually happened, though there are less of these. (I suspect that if we were in a predominantly African American discussion board, this would be the prevelant opinion.) I admit, because of my own predispositions, to being this way myself, and I wrote some things earlier that I probably should not have without further information. This is a weakness of mine. I get very upset when I read people just immediately taking the opposite side without info, and then I make the same mistake myself. Ivan is right when he points out my hypocisy in this. Mea culpa.There are many facts to this case that make very little sense to me. If the police report is true, then Gates is lying, I was wrong, and no racism occurred here. If Gates is telling the truth, the police are lying to cover up their racism. The fact that witnesses contradict Gates seems to give the police side more credibility. If so, then I am very disappointed in the professor and his supporters. But what's even more galling to me is that many here will use this incident to continue on with their worldview: that African Americans exaggerate racism or simply make it up. Because I believe there is serious racism that needs to be exposed, I hope Gates is telling the truth.
Click to expand...
Timmy>Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with you!I seriously think you are delusional.
Click to expand...
What did I write that is delusional?
 
Franknbeans said:
jonessed said:
The cops were there for a good reason and they clearly needed to see his ID to make sure he wasn't a burglar. There was no reason to bust their balls for doing their job. Perhaps the arrest shouldn't have happened, but if you are going to be a belligerent ####### to a cop they are going to make things difficult for you. It has nothing to do with race.

He created a ####storm for attention and he got it. Time to move on now.
Click to expand...
According to this it sounds like Gates didn't have to provide jack squat
Click to expand...
:blackdot: Awesome. So in the future, when I'm burglarizing someone's house and the police show up, I'll just tell them that it's my house and that they have no right to ask for ID. Then slam the door in their face.

Anyone else find it extremely ironic that one of the main reasons this thing started was because Gates was ramming into his stuck door to try to get into his house? The stuck door that was stuck because of a previously failed burglary attempt? You'd think he'd be grateful that a) his neighbors were vigilant in protecting his house and b) the police were investigating and protecting his property knowing that there had been previous burglary attempts in the area.

 
timschochet said:
Whatever your feelings about this matter, I'm betting that it will be impossible to convince many African-Americans that this wasn't racism. First of all, according to polling, a majority of African-Americans in this country have either witnessed or been a victim of what they regard to be police mistreatment. Second, you have one of the most highly respected African American intellectuals in this nation, a Harvard professor, making this charge. It's almost a perfect storm. It's going to be like the Jena 6 only more pronounced, I believe.
Click to expand...
Maybe a majority of African Americans still believe the Yale Lacrosse players raped that black stripper. Whatever your feelings on that matter, doesn't mean they're right.
 
GroveDiesel said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
IvanKaramazov said:
The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person.
Click to expand...
Of course. But once he completes his investigation and concludes that no crime had been committed, he has a further duty not to make an arrest.
Click to expand...
:blackdot: Really?So Gates could have hit the officer over the head with a crowbar and the officer would have had a duty NOT to make an arrest? Really?
Click to expand...
That depends. Is battery a crime in Massachusetts?
I agree that the best action would have been to just let it go and leave. Obviously the Crowley could have let this one go and walked away. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Gates wasn't technically being disorderly.
Click to expand...
I think it's pretty obvious from all accounts, including the cops', that what Gates did was not criminally disorderly conduct. He wasn't inciting a riot. He wasn't fighting or physically threatening anybody, or engaging in violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition. There was no way that charge was ever going to hold up, and the cops knew it when they made the arrest.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
Nigel said:
IvanKaramazov said:
I’m thinking about making a documentary film about racial profiling, and I’m in talks with PBS about that.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Already negotiationg a way to profit from all of this? Need anything else be said here abut this racebaiting tool's motives?
Click to expand...
are people really getting rich off PBS documentaries?
Click to expand...
You can't imagine a scenario where he profits greatly from this, apart from whatever he gets paid by PBS?
 
Nigel said:
pollardsvision said:
It sounds like a good cop is going to lose his job (at least) b/c this professor wants to make a name for himself. The President using it as an opportunity to grandstand isn't helping matters.
Click to expand...
there's no way this guy loses his job - public opinion here is 95% with him - then again we're all racists in Boston so take that for what it's worth.
Click to expand...
I hope you're right. I just fear that this cop has already been marked as a racist by the media and President Nifon...er Obama.

 
djmich said:
timschochet said:
Whatever your feelings about this matter, I'm betting that it will be impossible to convince many African-Americans that this wasn't racism. First of all, according to polling, a majority of African-Americans in this country have either witnessed or been a victim of what they regard to be police mistreatment. Second, you have one of the most highly respected African American intellectuals in this nation, a Harvard professor, making this charge. It's almost a perfect storm. It's going to be like the Jena 6 only more pronounced, I believe.
Click to expand...
Maybe a majority of African Americans still believe the Yale Lacrosse players raped that black stripper. Whatever your feelings on that matter, doesn't mean they're right.
Click to expand...
You mean Duke, of course. A lot of my Black friends DO believe something bad happened in that case. What outraged them was the rush by many whites, mostly conservatives, to come to the side of the defense of the Lacrosse players before there was any information. Of course, those on the opposite side will argue that Blacks immediately assume racism in these situations without any information, and that's true as well. But for me, I give African Americans more credibility simply because they KNOW that the police can be racist, whereas many white conservatives begin with the assumption (wrongfully IMO) that its all BS.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
GroveDiesel said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
IvanKaramazov said:
The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person.
Click to expand...
Of course. But once he completes his investigation and concludes that no crime had been committed, he has a further duty not to make an arrest.
Click to expand...
:blackdot: Really?So Gates could have hit the officer over the head with a crowbar and the officer would have had a duty NOT to make an arrest? Really?
Click to expand...
That depends. Is battery a crime in Massachusetts?
I agree that the best action would have been to just let it go and leave. Obviously the Crowley could have let this one go and walked away. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Gates wasn't technically being disorderly.
Click to expand...
I think it's pretty obvious from all accounts, including the cops', that what Gates did was not criminally disorderly conduct. He wasn't inciting a riot. He wasn't fighting or physically threatening anybody, or engaging in violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition. There was no way that charge was ever going to hold up, and the cops knew it when they made the arrest.
Click to expand...
In that case, anyone who is arrested is definitely guilty because police should only arrest guilty folks and folks in which the charge leveled against them will stick. Please just stop.
 
Maurile Tremblay said:
GroveDiesel said:
Maurile Tremblay said:
IvanKaramazov said:
The responding officer has an obligation to investigate, even if the home in question happens to belong to a black person.
Click to expand...
Of course. But once he completes his investigation and concludes that no crime had been committed, he has a further duty not to make an arrest.
Click to expand...
:blackdot: Really?So Gates could have hit the officer over the head with a crowbar and the officer would have had a duty NOT to make an arrest? Really?
Click to expand...
That depends. Is battery a crime in Massachusetts?
I agree that the best action would have been to just let it go and leave. Obviously the Crowley could have let this one go and walked away. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Gates wasn't technically being disorderly.
Click to expand...
I think it's pretty obvious from all accounts, including the cops', that what Gates did was not criminally disorderly conduct. He wasn't inciting a riot. He wasn't fighting or physically threatening anybody, or engaging in violent or tumultuous behavior, or creating a hazardous or physically offensive condition. There was no way that charge was ever going to hold up, and the cops knew it when they made the arrest.
Click to expand...
It seems like a pretty subjective standard and this would certainly be on the lower end of the scale, but I think that Gates very possibly acted "with purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm." But you'd have to ask the large group of bystanders that had gathered I guess to see if they felt annoyed or alarmed. I'd probably be somewhat alarmed if someone came out of their house screaming at the police about them being racists and what not.ETA: Gates also screamed "do you know who I am, you are going to pay for this" at Crowley. Seems like a threat to me.
 
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LOL at this whole story. Before last night, both parties had publicly come out and said they could have acted better and that should have been the end of it. The 0bama gets on the tube and throws gas on the fire. :lmao:

Fwiw, from what I heard the professor say to the cops, I think he would have been arrested no matter what his race. Sure, the charges may have been dropped... or maybe not. But most people know enough not to give the police attitude when they're responding to a call. And here this professor starts throwing out "yo mama" and asking the cop if the only reason he was being asked all this stuff was because he was black. I mean, how many people have to break into their own homes in the middle of the night, anyhow?

 
Nigel said:
Harry Manback said:
I hope that due to all this attention, someone actually breaks into his house one night, and the police don't respond, assuming it's the homeowner. I really, really do.
Click to expand...
Sadly, the irony is that the real racism will begin now that dozen or so racists in the Boston area know where this racebaiter lives.
Click to expand...
I don't wish him any harm, just want him to learn the hard way that you can't have it both ways, you can't have the police protect you and do their jobs when it's convenient for you, but when it's not they are ignorant racists.But yea, bad things will likely result.Bravo Gates, you sir are a champion of race relations. :lmao:
 
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