Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Its Andre Rison. He killed the old Browns and forced the move and all of this misery in the first place.
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Cleveland Browns (16 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I think he was, but my criteria are probably different than yours.
I know guys have signed for a LOOOOOT more money and done jack squat, but Bowe was D-O-N-E before we even signed him, and he got that much money, and couldnt even see the field without being hurt.
It would have been a terrible signing for the league minimum, let alone whatever ungodly amount they wasted on him
ghostguy123
Footballguy
In terms of outcome, yeah probably.
In terms of AT THE TIME, Bowe was just a horrible signing, and went on to prove just that.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Oh and if the jacked-up structure of Sashi Brown having final say over the roster sounds completely whacked, it is. Not only because top qualified candidates would balk at not having final control but that is reason enough to get rid of that stipulation.
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Tom Pelissero @TomPelissero 15m15 minutes ago
So by proclaiming Sashi Brown will have roster control, Jimmy Haslam has already thrown a lot of quality candidates out of the pool.
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But the other reaosn is Jimmy has screwed the pooch with that structure because according to NFL by-laws if the Browns have someone who has final say on the roster then other NFL teams do not have to grant us permission to interview their scouts.
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Tom Pelissero @TomPelissero 19m19 minutes ago
Great point just raised by an NFL exec: no 53-man roster say means teams don't have to let their scouts interview for #Browns "GM" job.
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So that is going to seriously hamper any GM search and the fact Jimmy has said he wants to hire the head coach BEFORE the GM also puts a dagger into landing a top GM candidate because many GM candidates want to make the call on the HC or have input but that would be impossible if we hire the HC first.
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Tom Pelissero @TomPelissero 15m15 minutes ago
So by proclaiming Sashi Brown will have roster control, Jimmy Haslam has already thrown a lot of quality candidates out of the pool.
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But the other reaosn is Jimmy has screwed the pooch with that structure because according to NFL by-laws if the Browns have someone who has final say on the roster then other NFL teams do not have to grant us permission to interview their scouts.
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Tom Pelissero @TomPelissero 19m19 minutes ago
Great point just raised by an NFL exec: no 53-man roster say means teams don't have to let their scouts interview for #Browns "GM" job.
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So that is going to seriously hamper any GM search and the fact Jimmy has said he wants to hire the head coach BEFORE the GM also puts a dagger into landing a top GM candidate because many GM candidates want to make the call on the HC or have input but that would be impossible if we hire the HC first.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Unless he already knows who he is hiring so it doesnt matter.
Can only hope right?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
This sums it up.
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Chris Rose @ChrisRose 39m39 minutes ago
Browns fire coach & GM. QB is AWOL. A lawyer is picking roster. I thought it was hard for me to feel worse about my team than when I woke up
ghostguy123
Footballguy
JF trying to get released.
Is Haslam trying to pull a Major League and get us moved to Florida?
Is Haslam trying to pull a Major League and get us moved to Florida?
amnesiac
beer is good
exactly. this isn't going to go well.
see you guys in two years when we fire the next coach and GM!
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Have to see how this all shakes out, but for now...
We've known for a while Pettine and Farmer did not see eye to eye on many things. They couldn't work together. "Collaborate" has been all over the place tonight. So the firings were necessary. Ghostguy gets part 1 of his dream. Whether the new regime trades the farm, we shall see.
Now moving forward we've basically, in a nutshell, gone back to the Banner/Lombardi regime structure. We have this figurehead who's not really a football guy with final say. The difference this time is it was 100% Jimmy's decision to pick that guy. This is HIS guy. I know basically nothing about Sashi, except for what Jimmy said about him and a few blurbs about him on the radio. Based on those few things, he seems less qualified than anyone that I've ever known to make final roster decisions. I hope this means this guy truly will be more of a leader and not filling out the draft pick cards. But I have no idea how far down the rung we'll have to look for a GM now. The selling point we mention here time to time is there are only a finite number of these positions available. Maybe someone decent will want to pounce on it. Doubt it.
Grossi says the coach will report to Jimmy and the GM will report to Sashi. Trying to unpack this. No idea here.
Seems like we'll only be able to bring in another first time coach with this setup. Marrone and Gase will be interviewed, and the Lions DC. I'm betting these won't be our coach in the end.
We've known for a while Pettine and Farmer did not see eye to eye on many things. They couldn't work together. "Collaborate" has been all over the place tonight. So the firings were necessary. Ghostguy gets part 1 of his dream. Whether the new regime trades the farm, we shall see.
Now moving forward we've basically, in a nutshell, gone back to the Banner/Lombardi regime structure. We have this figurehead who's not really a football guy with final say. The difference this time is it was 100% Jimmy's decision to pick that guy. This is HIS guy. I know basically nothing about Sashi, except for what Jimmy said about him and a few blurbs about him on the radio. Based on those few things, he seems less qualified than anyone that I've ever known to make final roster decisions. I hope this means this guy truly will be more of a leader and not filling out the draft pick cards. But I have no idea how far down the rung we'll have to look for a GM now. The selling point we mention here time to time is there are only a finite number of these positions available. Maybe someone decent will want to pounce on it. Doubt it.
Grossi says the coach will report to Jimmy and the GM will report to Sashi. Trying to unpack this. No idea here.
Seems like we'll only be able to bring in another first time coach with this setup. Marrone and Gase will be interviewed, and the Lions DC. I'm betting these won't be our coach in the end.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Amazing. The last time when I said "it cant possibly get any worse can it?"...............I really truly TRULY thought it couldnt (also thought that the previous 7 times I said it the past year or so).
But it currently is. I will say it again just for fun.
It can't POSSIBLY get any worse
But it currently is. I will say it again just for fun.
It can't POSSIBLY get any worse
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Haslam needs to go to prison. Not for the Pilot FLying J stuff, which he should, but for this
Just when you thought Cleveland had locked up the "most dysfunctional" title, they double down and go for the lifetime achievement award.
Weird that the NFL apparently can dictate ownership structure to the Titans, but can't force Haslam to use a sane, traditional power structure for his front office.
Weird that the NFL apparently can dictate ownership structure to the Titans, but can't force Haslam to use a sane, traditional power structure for his front office.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Check out Pete Smith's timeline. I'm pessimistic, but trying to keep an open mind. Good stuff there about Sashi and the supposed plan,
MAC_32
Footballguy
Lane Adkins has said it without saying it, but he's a big fan of the personnel department. The now fired regime just didn't listen to them enough. Argument for Sashi being more open to the info they give him.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The club's PR team already pumped out a piece on Sashi.
Our scouting department has/had some of the most experienced guys in the league and we got high marks so the failures of the first round picks made no sense to me.
The Sashi Brown article.
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http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/article-5/Sashi-Brown-named-Browns-executive-VP-of-football-operations/a7f4dc8c-5811-407a-923d-921a211f3068
Bobcat10
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Ok, so going a little backwards with the conventional way and going coach THEN GM. Is this a HUGE problem? I mean, I know it's not the way things are generally done, but I am also not 100% sure why it's rarely (if ever) done this way.
Can someone enlighten me? Can it work this way?
Can someone enlighten me? Can it work this way?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Doesn't sound promising.
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Matt Miller @nfldraftscout 3h3 hours ago
Good luck hiring a quality HC or GM to work under this Browns structure.
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The only saving grace I heard in the press conference from JImmy is he flatly says this is going to be a multi-year rebuild. Yay! Be honest. This is a multi-year rebuild so that means he will stick with any HC he hires so any candidate know he will get at least three years since Pettine got two.
It is 'possible' this could work even if it sounds like a terrible plan.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Ok, so if the coach is hired first and gets to "pick" the GM or whatever, wouldn't that mean it would be more attractive to potential COACHES that way?
Just a question, I really have no idea.
Just a question, I really have no idea.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Well if you were a HC and YOU got some say in picking the GM who is going to supply you with talent so you can run your schemes then I think you would like that however Sashi Brown is the one with final say on personnel matters so I dunno how a HC candidate would feel about that.
You would think they'd be more concerned about the owner and what his deal is or the roster and how much say he'll have with Johnny Manziel and if he can pick his quarterback and how much say he would have on the roster.
Also any potential candidate is probably doing their due-diligence on Sashi Brown.
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Matt Miller @nfldraftscout 2h2 hours ago
Matt Miller Retweeted Marcus Coleman
No background in football scouting, coaching, personnel.
Marcus Coleman@Patchmc42
Does anyone know if Sashi Brown is a football guy or knows how to select personnel or evaluate talent ?
Marcus Coleman @Patchmc42Texas Tech All-American DB, Texas Tech HOF, NFL Vet of 11 years Jets, Texans, Cowboys, Sports Talk Host, Motivational Speaker, Chelsea FC Supporter
Marcus Coleman @Patchmc42 2h2 hours ago
Brown, who has no background in scouting, coaching or personnel has final say &Browns are still hiring a GM after HC ? Its your world champ.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
So the coach would supposedly have SOME say in the GM search, right?
I am just asking if this would be more attractive to a potential coach than already havin a GM in place.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Ok everyone is going ape #### over the "final say" stuff.
Now, I will TRY and be optimistic about this, but couldn't "final say" just mean he is approving whatever the GM wants, so long as the contract itself meets whatever criteria he needs to meet to sign it? Like some sort of contract guru or something?
Now, I will TRY and be optimistic about this, but couldn't "final say" just mean he is approving whatever the GM wants, so long as the contract itself meets whatever criteria he needs to meet to sign it? Like some sort of contract guru or something?
amnesiac
beer is good
Haslam's presser just put the final nail in this franchise for the next 3 years minimum.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Let's hear him talk, but that would be one optimistic way to approach it. The way I see it, one of his objectives would be to keep the coach and the GM in line and on the same page. "Collaborate". The apparent reporting structure (HC-Jimmy and GM-Sashi) sort of blurs that, but we'll have to see. Go read that twitter timeline Mac posted about above. Go to about 10pm where the guy got a phone call and read upwards. Sashi should also listen to the "experts" (scouts) that do the grunt work, like Elway does in Denver. Apparently that was one of Farmer's downfalls.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I am HOPING final say means just that, final say. Not that he is involved in actually drafting or free agent activity other than just the final approval for the contract.
Hopefully he would just have final say, and NO OTHER SAY in the matter. If that makes sense.
Hopefully he would just have final say, and NO OTHER SAY in the matter. If that makes sense.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Well the thing is this. I think we all know Jimmy, who has even less football knowledge or credibility than Sashi Brown, had final say on the trade-up and selection of Johnny Manziel. I'm pretty sure everyone knew he had final say so if anything, this could be an improvement but its still viewed as someone who bought a team and he doesn't have a clue how to run a team.
Check out the pod from Mary Kay Cabot and Tom Labbe. MKC says she's getting texts and e-mails from all over from people who cover teams basically asking WTF is Jimmy doing?
LINK to the pod>> http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/01/mary_kay_cabot_talks_about_the_11.html
I think Jimmy wants a Joe Banner type of structure but Joe actually worked in the NFL for decades whereas Sashi Brown??? I mean come on. I can see why people are questioning this move.
The team seriously needs a strong in-house presence but Sashi lacks gravitas.
The best thing is they have hired a search team for the new HC and they have an excellent track record.
Mary Kay says they are going to go hard after Jon Gruden. She also is complimentary of some of the picks and mentioned Duke Johnson but said she had a story on who was behind that pick and she'll save that for another day.
She thinks Manziel is gone.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Manziel is definitely gone.
Yeah, all of this looks really stupid like Haslam is just throwing things around during a drunk bender.
I am just trying to see if it even has a chance of actually working.
Maybe he knew he cant get a real GM, so is trying to make it look more appealing for a coach, who knows.
I mean, really, who knows. It cant get any worse, right? Right???
Yeah, all of this looks really stupid like Haslam is just throwing things around during a drunk bender.
I am just trying to see if it even has a chance of actually working.
Maybe he knew he cant get a real GM, so is trying to make it look more appealing for a coach, who knows.
I mean, really, who knows. It cant get any worse, right? Right???
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Are we even ahead of where an expansion team would be if they entered the league right now? Sick
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Oh for gosh sakes yes.
Do you remember what we had in 99? We sure didn't have Joe Thomas, or Joel Bitonio, or Duke Johnson, or Gary Barnidge, or Nate Orchard, etc. We had nothing. We're so much better than that and...... I don't want to give you any hope but yeah, we could easily turn it around in three years if we hit on the HC and get the QB.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
As a young associate at the Washington, D.C., law firm Wilmer Cutler Pickering Hale and Dorr, Sashi Brown didn’t go looking for sports work so much as it found him.
“I wish I could tell you there was some well-thought-out, sophisticated plan, but there really wasn’t,” Brown said. “I was doing traditional corporate work. Venture capital and private equity. I got an opportunity to start working on some sports transactions.
“It piqued my interest.”
When Brown started at Wilmer in 2002, its corporate practice was headed by **** Cass, now president of the Baltimore Ravens and whose sports work included Jerry Jones’ purchase of the Dallas Cowboys, the sale of the Washington Redskins to Dan Snyder, and Steve Bisciotti’s purchase of the Ravens. Brown did some work on Bisciotti’s buyout of Art Modell to complete his purchase of the team, as well as on the sale of a minority interest in Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment and on some sponsorship contracts for the Dallas Cowboys.
“I started peeking under the hood of what clubs deal with day to day, what makes some good or bad, and at some league issues,” Brown said. “It was all interesting to learn about.”
Brown left the firm in 2005 for an in-house counsel job with the Jacksonville Jaguars. He made the move to Cleveland in 2013. With the Browns, he has expanded his responsibilities to include both business and football, dealing with sponsor, media and facility negotiations as well as cap management issues.
“I really enjoy both sides of the business,” Brown said. “As I move forward, I would hope to continue in that sort of role and not get pushed to either side.”
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2015/03/30/Forty-Under-40/Sashi-Brown.aspx
“I wish I could tell you there was some well-thought-out, sophisticated plan, but there really wasn’t,” Brown said. “I was doing traditional corporate work. Venture capital and private equity. I got an opportunity to start working on some sports transactions.
“It piqued my interest.”
When Brown started at Wilmer in 2002, its corporate practice was headed by **** Cass, now president of the Baltimore Ravens and whose sports work included Jerry Jones’ purchase of the Dallas Cowboys, the sale of the Washington Redskins to Dan Snyder, and Steve Bisciotti’s purchase of the Ravens. Brown did some work on Bisciotti’s buyout of Art Modell to complete his purchase of the team, as well as on the sale of a minority interest in Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment and on some sponsorship contracts for the Dallas Cowboys.
“I started peeking under the hood of what clubs deal with day to day, what makes some good or bad, and at some league issues,” Brown said. “It was all interesting to learn about.”
Brown left the firm in 2005 for an in-house counsel job with the Jacksonville Jaguars. He made the move to Cleveland in 2013. With the Browns, he has expanded his responsibilities to include both business and football, dealing with sponsor, media and facility negotiations as well as cap management issues.
“I really enjoy both sides of the business,” Brown said. “As I move forward, I would hope to continue in that sort of role and not get pushed to either side.”
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2015/03/30/Forty-Under-40/Sashi-Brown.aspx
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Screw it. I'll take Chip Kelly.
Just don't let him have control of the roster and trades.
Chip, you just coach. He might actually be ok if he just does that.
WHat will probably happen though is Haslam will hire Chip to be GM. Haslam style.
Just don't let him have control of the roster and trades.
Chip, you just coach. He might actually be ok if he just does that.
WHat will probably happen though is Haslam will hire Chip to be GM. Haslam style.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Well that should help them land a top candidate. Too bad you can't replace an owner.amnesiac said:
B-Deep
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
I posted this elsewhere which sums up my feelings on the situation:
Hearing what Cleveland has in mind for the next iteration of awful might be the final straw for me. They've relegated their fan base to casual observers and now, in a fit of absolute brilliance they promote a non-football guy (Sashi Brown) to VP of Football Operations with the thought that he will hire the new head coach who will then work in tandem with Sashi to hire the General Manager. Not sure I want to spend the next 20 years watching the clown carousel go round & round. Honorable mention goes to Johnny Manziel & Dwayne Bowe as the cherry on top of the sundae and the dot on the exclamation point of futility that was the 2015 season.
I forgot to throw Justin Gilbert in there. It's just difficult to get behind this kind of decision making. I'm about 30 years into this organization, I've seen the good and the bad. I've already kind of dismissed the team to a certain degree living in Charlotte but find me some nugget to hold onto here, something, anything. I just don't see it. Haslam is setting himself up as Jerry Jones light and it just isn't going to work. I know there will be those that are optimistic about this somehow but I can't. It's just not going to work, no way, no how. Much like the ghostguy & Chris Rose I didn't think it could get any worse and lo & behold the Browns yet again sink to a new low.
Hearing what Cleveland has in mind for the next iteration of awful might be the final straw for me. They've relegated their fan base to casual observers and now, in a fit of absolute brilliance they promote a non-football guy (Sashi Brown) to VP of Football Operations with the thought that he will hire the new head coach who will then work in tandem with Sashi to hire the General Manager. Not sure I want to spend the next 20 years watching the clown carousel go round & round. Honorable mention goes to Johnny Manziel & Dwayne Bowe as the cherry on top of the sundae and the dot on the exclamation point of futility that was the 2015 season.
I forgot to throw Justin Gilbert in there. It's just difficult to get behind this kind of decision making. I'm about 30 years into this organization, I've seen the good and the bad. I've already kind of dismissed the team to a certain degree living in Charlotte but find me some nugget to hold onto here, something, anything. I just don't see it. Haslam is setting himself up as Jerry Jones light and it just isn't going to work. I know there will be those that are optimistic about this somehow but I can't. It's just not going to work, no way, no how. Much like the ghostguy & Chris Rose I didn't think it could get any worse and lo & behold the Browns yet again sink to a new low.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Interesting.
Three of the top playoff seeds have coaches that were not considered top head coaching candidates.
These guys had been passed over many times so even if we don't get the top guy or one of the hot names it could turn out to be a serendipitous hire.
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Eric Edholm @Eric_Edholm 10h10 hours ago
Ron Rivera, Bruce Arians, Mike Zimmer — the coaches other teams interviewed and didn't want — are coaching your top 3 seeds.
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Broken clocks show correct time twice a day, blind squirrels, etc.
Point is, it is possible that we could 'get lucky' in the HC search.
Also we haven't had a pick this high since the turn of the millennium in Y2K. We have only picked ONE QB this high in the entire history of the Cleveland Browns and that was Tim Couch with the 1st pick in 1999. Quinn/Weeden/Drunken Humonculous (Manziel) were all 22nd picks and not considered top-ten talents.
At this time the only QB who 'could' be considered a top-ten talent is Goff and he's not rated in the same class as Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota from last year.
Even with Haslam we have a chance to come out of this with two of the four crucial pieces needed to turn the ship around. Unfortunately one of the pieces is having solid ownership in place but you can win in spurts in spite of terrible ownership but you really do need solid-stable ownership in place so hopefully Dee Haslam takes over from Jimmy.
I'm serious. I really hope Dee Haslam takes over and then we can focus in on fourth piece of building a dominating defense.
Three of the top playoff seeds have coaches that were not considered top head coaching candidates.
These guys had been passed over many times so even if we don't get the top guy or one of the hot names it could turn out to be a serendipitous hire.
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Eric Edholm @Eric_Edholm 10h10 hours ago
Ron Rivera, Bruce Arians, Mike Zimmer — the coaches other teams interviewed and didn't want — are coaching your top 3 seeds.
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Broken clocks show correct time twice a day, blind squirrels, etc.
Point is, it is possible that we could 'get lucky' in the HC search.
Also we haven't had a pick this high since the turn of the millennium in Y2K. We have only picked ONE QB this high in the entire history of the Cleveland Browns and that was Tim Couch with the 1st pick in 1999. Quinn/Weeden/Drunken Humonculous (Manziel) were all 22nd picks and not considered top-ten talents.
At this time the only QB who 'could' be considered a top-ten talent is Goff and he's not rated in the same class as Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota from last year.
Even with Haslam we have a chance to come out of this with two of the four crucial pieces needed to turn the ship around. Unfortunately one of the pieces is having solid ownership in place but you can win in spurts in spite of terrible ownership but you really do need solid-stable ownership in place so hopefully Dee Haslam takes over from Jimmy.
I'm serious. I really hope Dee Haslam takes over and then we can focus in on fourth piece of building a dominating defense.
amnesiac
beer is good
calling it now: 5 years from now-
Haslam: "I'd like to announce that we are firing our coach. Jimmy Haslam will be our new coach. He will report directly to the GM, Jimmy Haslam. The GM will report to the Senior Vice President of Football opperations, which is Jimmy Haslam. I will then report to the owner. Me."
Haslam: "I'd like to announce that we are firing our coach. Jimmy Haslam will be our new coach. He will report directly to the GM, Jimmy Haslam. The GM will report to the Senior Vice President of Football opperations, which is Jimmy Haslam. I will then report to the owner. Me."
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I want to go back to this one point:
"Because Brown will have 53-man roster control, other teams can block their scouts from interviewing for the "GM" job – instantly removing many quality candidates from the pool."
I'm looking at the word "scout". So anyone with "Player Personnel" or "Football Operations" or "Asst. GM" in their titles are fair game?
"Because Brown will have 53-man roster control, other teams can block their scouts from interviewing for the "GM" job – instantly removing many quality candidates from the pool."
I'm looking at the word "scout". So anyone with "Player Personnel" or "Football Operations" or "Asst. GM" in their titles are fair game?
B-Deep
Footballguy
Florio made it sound more broad:
Browns may have made it harder to hire a G.M.Posted by Mike Florio on January 4, 2016, 12:34 AM EST
Getty ImagesApart from the reality that giving lawyer-turned-football-executive Sashi Brown final say over the roster will make the Cleveland G.M. job less attractive to G.M.
candidates who are at the top of the G.M. industry, the decision to elevate Brown to the top non-coaching football position within the Browns will make it harder to hire someone currently under contract with another team.
Because Sashi Brown has control over the 53-man roster, the Cleveland G.M. position doesn’t qualify for the portion of the tampering policy that allows a team to hire as G.M. someone currently working for another team, without permission from that team.
Which means that if the Browns target an up-and-coming scout or director of college scouting or director of pro personnel or any other person under contract with another team, the other team can refuse to let the person be interviewed and hired.
It means that the Browns will either have to hire someone that another team doesn’t want to keep, or they’ll have to hire someone who currently isn’t employed.
Whether the Browns thought that specific wrinkle through remains to be seen. If they didn’t, it definitely could put a crimp in their plans for interviewing G.M. candidates.
B-Deep
Footballguy
B-Deep
Footballguy
i would think so, and we cannot be sure that florio is correct.
If so, though, it is a pretty big tactical blunder
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It's not only the permission thing though. Top candidates aren't going to want to take a GM position where they already start off somewhat emasculated by not having final say on roster decisions.
B-Deep
Footballguy
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I think a whole lot of people considered all three of those guys HC material and didn't understand why it took so long for them to get the chance. Especially the last two.
