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Cleveland Browns (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
Peak
Footballguy
@Elise_JesseWLWT
Hearing Ken Zampese got the QB coaching position with the Cleveland Browns.
At least it's not the OC spot. Zampese has good experience with Kitna, Palmer and early Dalton during his time with the Bengals. Not sure how much of that was the OC and how much was the QB Coach. But again, at least the Browns are still looking for the OC. I'm holding out hope that Ryan opts in and joins the Browns very soon. :fingerscrossed:
Peak
Footballguy
Offensive Coaching purge has continued...
@KyleKellyCLE
#Browns have parted ways with David Lee (quarterbacks), Shawn Mennenga (special teams assistant), Stan Watson (special teams quality control) and Kirby Wilson (running backs/run game coordinator).
link to story
@KyleKellyCLE
#Browns have parted ways with David Lee (quarterbacks), Shawn Mennenga (special teams assistant), Stan Watson (special teams quality control) and Kirby Wilson (running backs/run game coordinator).
link to story
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Right. I find it funny how many Browns fans are excited about the Browns drafting Barkley. That would be an awful awful pick. They don't need a RB at all, and they didn't use the very good ones they had, in addition to RB's simply not being worth top-5 picks. So basically, he's a lock for Cleveland, and this is a bad year to have the #1 rookie pick.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Assuming you mean for the Browns, I'd want Bradley Chubb at #1 and Minkah Fitzpatrick at #4. Try to shoot for being like Jacksonville. Great defense, conservative offense, with occasional shots to Gordon/Coleman/Njoku.
For fantasy drafts, I have no idea. Depends a lot on landing spots.
Peak
Footballguy
Conflicting reports on Ryan as OC...
Per MKC via 92.3, Ryan was extended an offer because Hue wasn't willing to give up play calling duties to Ryan this year. Take what MKC gives with a grain of salt, but she's been the mouthpiece of the coaching staff this year.
John McClain (via Houston Chronicle) has talked about the Browns signing him and he would call plays his second year.
I see more truth in the MKC report than McClain, who typically retweets/regurgitates everyone else.
It's looking more and more like Hue won't hire an OC and has put those closest to that position (Zampese and Saunders) in position to not have to hire one. 2018 is going to lose a lot of promise if he comes back next year.
Per MKC via 92.3, Ryan was extended an offer because Hue wasn't willing to give up play calling duties to Ryan this year. Take what MKC gives with a grain of salt, but she's been the mouthpiece of the coaching staff this year.
John McClain (via Houston Chronicle) has talked about the Browns signing him and he would call plays his second year.
I see more truth in the MKC report than McClain, who typically retweets/regurgitates everyone else.
It's looking more and more like Hue won't hire an OC and has put those closest to that position (Zampese and Saunders) in position to not have to hire one. 2018 is going to lose a lot of promise if he comes back next year.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I did mean for the Browns and I agree that the Browns don't need a RB. You choices make sense but Barkley is a game changer. You could still grab Chubb or Fitzpatrick at 4.
I admit I need to do more research on Barkley, but even as a game changer, RB has proven to not be worth a top-5 pick. Elliott and Fournette were both top-5 picks and they were both objectively bad picks. Dallas would have been much better off taking Jalen Ramsey(equal or better player at a far more important position) and Jags would have been better off taking DeShaun Watson. Doesn't mean Elliott or Fournette are bad players, far from it, but RB's simply aren't worth that much draft capital.
Just don't see RB as a 1st round position unless a team is fully loaded elsewhere. especially when very good guys like Hunt, Kamara, Howard, David Johnson, and Freeman, are available in round 3 or later seemingly every year.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Hue is too stupid to realize wins and success make him look good. No matter who is doing what.
daveR
Footballguy
You may as well face it, Jackson is the coach. And, if you can't figure it out, he doesn't want a newbie calling the plays until he is familiar with the system, hence year-2. So, stop your whining, accept the facts, and add something positive to the discussion. In another thread, some of you said a top QB would have brought us 6-7 wins. Assuming a top coach instead, how many wins in 2017 (with Kizer at QB)?
Peak
Footballguy
I think we're all resigned to it, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
A competent coach that would build the offense around a QB like Kizer, I'd say at least 5-11 is the bottom. This team was within one score from winning several games with subpar coaching and offensive planning. Give them a competent HC and I see a 5-7 win team this year.
A competent coach that would build the offense around a QB like Kizer, I'd say at least 5-11 is the bottom. This team was within one score from winning several games with subpar coaching and offensive planning. Give them a competent HC and I see a 5-7 win team this year.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
THIS year?? With Kizer at QB and a good head coach, with our picks and cap room? Anywhere from 4-8 depending what route they wanna take with the picks and cap room.
Peak
Footballguy
Consider how many close games we lost in 2017. With a competent HC, yes I think they could have been a 5-7 win team. Consider that a competent HC would have brought at least one more score (FG or TD), they were in many games until the 4th qtr, including two in OT.
Wk1 Pittsburgh Steelers 18–21...could have won 1-0
Wk2 at Baltimore Ravens 10–24 lost 1-1
Wk3 at Indianapolis Colts 28–31... could have won 2-1
Wk4 Cincinnati Bengals 7–31 lost 2-2
Wk5 New York Jets 14–17 ...could have won 3-2
Wk6 at Houston Texans 17–33 lost 3-3
Wk7 Tennessee Titans 9–12 (OT) ...could have won 4-3
Wk8 Minnesota Vikings 16–33 lost 4-4
Wk9 Bye
Wk10 at Detroit Lions 24–38 lost 4-5
Wk11 Jacksonville Jaguars 7–19 lost 4-6
Wk12 at Cincinnati Bengals 16–30 lost 4-7
Wk13 at Los Angeles Chargers 10–19 lost 4-8
Wk14 Green Bay Packers 21–27 (OT) ...could have won 5-8
Wk15 Baltimore Ravens 10–27 lost 5-9
Wk16 at Chicago Bears 3–20 lost 5-10
Wk17 Pittsburgh Steelers 24–28 ...could have won 6-10
I'm not saying they would have won each of those games, but I do believe a competent HC could've won at least 4 or 5 of those 6 close games. It was ridiculous how many close games Cleveland had this year that the coach squandered away with piss poor play calls, or abandoning the run, or mis-using TOs, or any other number of stupid decisions. You can't blame an OC, because we didn't have one. You can't blame Kizer's poor play on the QB coach, because that was all HUE! Even Kizer has said that he didn't speak with anyone other than Hue. This HC was supposed to be a "QB Whisperer". It was his decision on which QBs to bring in to this organization. You can't fault the FO, when Hue was saying "this is my guy!" Did you all forget that RG3 made the ground move and the heavens open up for Hue during their workouts? Or that Hue spent all that time with Kessler leading up to the draft, with Hue saying "this is our guy"? I'm glad Dorsey is here, and I'm glad this FO is built out of like-minded guys who have football knowledge, but also understand the analytics approach. IMO, this organization is finally in a position to succeed, except for one area. 1-15 with a young, inexperienced team and no playmakers is one thing. I can't fault a coach on that one. But regressing to 0-16 after having a defense that more than did their part this season, and a group of young, but talented individuals who never gave up when they could have long ago when the HC kept throwing them under the bus every week....that falls on the HC.
I've been a Browns fan for many, many years. I'm not new to the ineptness that resides in the Factory of Sadness that is Berea. But this year is the worst that I have ever seen. I would rather have Butch back. Hell Mangenius managed to win a few games in spite of his giant ego and crazy ways. An inexperienced Chud managed a few wins, and Mike Pettine achieved at least 5 wins in a season when he only employed his childhood friends as coaches. This great offensive mind we have now running the team couldn't muster up a single win. He consistently abandoned a running game when it was working, and he psychologically screwed up a young, inexperienced QB who wanted to do nothing more than prove he could handle it. I give Kizer props for going out each week. He's a talented kid, but he's damaged now. I'm hoping he can learn from this and grown stronger mentally.
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Dez
Footballguy
While its hard to place an exact number on it, I think the Browns with a good, but not elite coach(Andy Reid for example) and Kizer, win more games than Hue and a good but not elite QB(say a guy like Stafford) would have.
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daveR
Footballguy
I like Kizer's potential, but no, he wasn't even close to NFL level in 2017. Hue was right to bench him for sloppiness. QB in the NFL is tough enough for the best of them (think Big Ben vs jax, earlier in the season). When you add in rookie mistakes, you get 0-16. BTW, the defense wasn't all that stellar, either.travdogg said:
daveR
Footballguy
Talked to a guy who has a personal connection to Joe Thomas last night. He said he doesn't think he will return for 2018. Said Joe is the same guy who spent the day fishing with his dad on draft day. He's happy. I said, "Doesn't he have a contract for the next couple years?" He agreed that Joe might return to fulfill that obligation.
daveR
Footballguy
So... talking about talent only, how good is this team? (I guess I mean "probable production level" rather than pure talent) How good are the starters? How good are the backups? On a scale of 0-10, 5 being NFL average, how do you rate each position group? IMHO...
QB-2, RB-5, WR-4, TE-3, OL-5, DL-7, LB-5, DB-3
We got a lot of work to do.
QB-2, RB-5, WR-4, TE-3, OL-5, DL-7, LB-5, DB-3
We got a lot of work to do.
Kizer certainly is nowhere near a finished product, but Jackson basically made it as hard as possible for him. Pass heavy game plans, despite an excellent running game(2nd in the NFL in yards per carry as a team) and a complete lack of weapons(especially before Gordon came back) was seemingly the weekly game plan. Of course Kizer was sloppy, but you don't yo-yo a guy and expect him to get better.
Hue Jackson in 2017 was the worst coach in NFL history in my opinion. He brings absolutely nothing to the table, and is seemingly incapable of accepting any responsibility for it. Its Sashi Brown's fault, or Kizer's fault, and bad injury luck. No, its that Jackson is an awful coach, and his only skill is tricking Jimmy Haslem into thinking he isn't. Jackson must have some major evidence against Haslem in the federal case he has, otherwise Jackson's continued employment is mind boggling.
Most of us in this thread would have won at least 1 game as Browns head coach these 2 years. The Browns should strive to have a head coach better than us, but apparently that is too much to ask. I feel so bad for Browns fans having to be stuck with this joke of a front office.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
We have Duke Johnson and the Crow. We've finished in the top three/four in terms of average per carry and Duke is second in the entire NFL in terms of missed tackles as a receiver and fourth overall in terms of missed tackles. That does not garner a 5 on a scale of 10. Duke is one of the best receivers from the RB position in the league. The numbers indicates they were not used properly by the coaching staff.
The tight ends are far better than a score that dismisses them as less than average. Seth DeValve and rookie David Njoku have been very productive and Njoku finished with the top score of all rookie TEs last year, even surpassing Evan Engram due to the fact that Njoku can block. We could use a better in-line pure blocking TE but most NFL teams would clamber to have two young tight ends like DeValve and an improving Njoku in the passing game.
No one can put a grade on the WR position with a wildcard like Gordon. If he's got his head screwed on then he lead the entire NFL and set all-time NFL records in only 14 games. He has 'that' sort of potential but with a big caveat.
The O-line is far better than average if Joe Thomas comes back.
The D-Line is an 8 as it stands.
If Jamie Collins comes back the LBs are most definitely better than a 5.
We have a big hole at the FS position in the secondary. The other guys are 'ok' but that hole makes the entire group appear inefficient. Peppers improved dramatically at SS by the end of the year and Greg Williams allowed him to come down into the box and creep up closer to the LOS after he proved himself. The secondary looks bad but the parts are not as bad as the finished product. It is one piece away from being 'decent' and a two pieces (FS and shutdown CB) away from being very-good.
I don't agree with the numbers but we do have a lot of work to do.
My take is that their is better talent than what some believe and that we are close to being very-good in some spots.
We will draft a QB and 'solid' QB play corrects many issues and makes a strength from what appeared to be a weakness.
We need to draft correctly and develop the talent correctly but their is talent on this team.
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amnesiac
beer is good
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So you swayed his opinion by simply letting him know that JT is under contract for a huge amount of money?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
No team in the history of any sport has had the combination of draft assets and salary cap room that we have right now. It is downright staggering how much we COULD improve with halfway competent drafting and if we actually use our salary cap.
yes we have a lot of work to do, but it's work that we have the ability to do.
If we signed Cousins to the richest contract in NFL history, draft players at 1,4,33,35,60,65...................after paying all them, we still have like 70 million in cap room. Sign a top WR, sign two of the top DBs. Sign some other stuff.
I mean, yeah, easier said than done cause guys dont wanna come here, but wow, if we could get someone to Jedi mind trick some folks we will be playing at this time next year and the year after and the year after
ghostguy123
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
I don't think his opinion changed, but he DID acknowledge that JT is a man of honor & my point could be valid.
I see it closer to:
QB-5, Kizer has a world of upside(though still needs a lot of work), and Kessler is a solid, though injury prone QB2. Hue hung them both out to dry. They look better in any other uniform.
RB-8, Duke Johnson was the NFL's most underused player. He's a top-15 NFL RB, and makes plays every time he's on the field. Not his fault that idiot Hue seems to think he's just a 3rd down guy. Crowell is an overrated player in my opinion, but he's a useful complement if they choose to keep him. Dayes is an acceptable depth RB.
WR-3, Gordon is a very good player, but very unreliable. Coleman has lots of upside, but hasn't been able to stay healthy, and hasn't shown much to date. Higgins is probably the #3 right now, but he's nothing more than a sub-package guy. Probably best used as a #4 or #5 WR. Lots of upside here, but also potentially nothing. They could use a veteran presence, a leader, not just a guy who has experience like Britt was.
TE-5, Njoku has a world of upside(Kelce levels) but is pretty raw still, and wasn't helped by being vastly underused for asinine reasons. He should have been a 65%+ player from week 1 on. DeValve and Telfer are just guys, they bring little to the table and should have never seen majority snaps over Njoku.
OL-7, Right tackle is really the only hole in the group. Thomas and Bitonio are as good a left side as there is in the NFL. Zeitler is a very good RG, though perhaps overpaid. Tretter is an ok center.
DL-8, Myles Garrett looks like a star in the making. Carl Nassib and Emmanuel Ogbah seem like solid rotational players. Nate Orchard has been a disappointment, but he's still an ok depth piece. Danny Shelton is a very good run stuffer, and Larry Ogunjobi looked very good as a rookie. Caleb Brantley was a nice steal in round 6, and looks like a contributor. Interior is set, and while an upgrade opposite Garrett would be nice, its not completely necessary.
LB-3, Jamie Collins has proven to be a Belichick creation. Whether its been injuries or effort issues, he hasn't been worth the 3rd rounder they traded for him, let alone the contract. If I were running the show, he's an easy cap casualty. Not that they can't afford to keep him, just don't see any reason to want to. Christian Kirksey took a major step back this year, I'm not sure if he's a part of the long term future. Joe Schobert seems like a solid player, I think he's pretty clearly their best LB, although ideally you'd want him to be #2 or #3.
DB-6, Jabrill Peppers is the big key here. I thought he was drafted a full round earlier than he should have been, at Michigan, he always struck me as more style than substance, and he lacked both as a rookie. I'm not giving up on him by any means, but I believe more in Kizer, Coleman and Njoku developing into quality starters more than I do Peppers. Right now he's the weak link of an otherwise solid secondary. Derrick Kindred looks like a huge steal as a 2016 4th rounder, and should be a starter for years to come. Briean Boddy-Calhoun looks like a top notch find, and he and Jason McCourty, form a very solid CB combo. Jamar Taylor is very up and down, but is a solid #3, even though he sees more snaps than BBC, for now.
All in all, I think this is a league average team on paper. A mediocre coach could easily get 5 wins out of this team. Belichick could make the playoffs with this team. With the amount of high picks and cap space, Sashi Brown built a very strong foundation, hopefully that doesn't get torn apart in his absence.
bucksoh
Footballguy
I've said this year's ago when the Browns squandered away all their picks. No amount of picks make up for bad drafting. I would be more worried if Travdogg was doing the drafting, then the idiots that draft for the Browns.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
So Haslam keeps firing people before their contracts are finished and has to keep paying them while paying new people in the same positions as a profit scheme?
Please show me the data on this being a cheap money ball approach.
Obviously taking Osweiler form the Texans and having to pay his huge salary this year to get their 2nd round draft pick was a cheap money ball move also.
You over exaggerate "facts" in your posts trying to make points.
Here's a hint, when multiple people in a thread tell you, you don't know what you are talking about, chances are you don't.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
It hasn't worked out yet.
The pick they got is in this years draft.
So using perfect hindsight it's easy to say yes they should have drafted Wentz.
And what would you be saying if he had turned out to be Blake Bortles?
Because shockingly every QB drafted in the top 3 doesn't turn out to be an even good QB.
Village Idiot
Pokerguy
I asked you nicely to be cooler. Come back in a couple of weeks and if you can contribute without constant insults, you can post here. If not, please find another board.
Peak
Footballguy
Ugh....sure, why not. At this point, I don't see Hue bringing in anyone competent, or someone with an opposing voice to his direction.
Read an article over the weekend that gave some sliver of hope. To paraphrase, even though Hue may have Haslam's ear right now, his voice is becoming quieter this season. With the hiring of Dorsey, Highsmith, and Wolf, these football minds will help drone out the ramblings of Hue and hopefully re-insert some sanity into what needs to be done. I don't see Hue getting into a power struggle with these guys, so either Hue falls in line or he's out. Right now I still feel like Hue is bucking this a little bit with the OC hire, but time will come to prove this theory out. Too many smart people in the room that won't fall for these shenanigans. I'm interested to see what happens, and I'm trying to remain a little optimistic for this upcoming season, but I have this creepy sensation that 2018 is a throw away season if Hue is still HC. I would love to be wrong, but that's just where I am now.
daveR
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
Thanks to those of you who chimed in on this. It's always fun to see what people are thinking. That being said, I guess I should have posted MY reasons. Sorry.
My thought on how each position group stack up against NFL average...
QB-2. Kizer shows several deficiencies (IMO) including staring down receivers and taking low-percentage "shots" when they're unwarranted. That is, it's okay to heave one & hope when the game's winding down, but not otherwise. The backup QBs are also lacking when compared to NFL average backups.
RB-5. Decent. NFL-caliber. Look around the league and you will see that they fall, essentially, right in the middle. It'd be nice to have a big back ala Fournette, but I guess Crow is pretty close to the same size.
WR-4. Some good physical talent, but I worry about their heads. Though I expect him to stay clean, I'd be shocked if Gordon is around in 2019, after his contract runs out. When I check out the receiving corps throughout the league, I can't call them exceptional. Too many times they lack chemistry with the QB and it seems that they're fine with it (admittedly, this is pure conjecture). Overall, I'd rate the starters as "good enough most times, exceptional on rare occasion".
TE-3. I recognize the physical athleticism of Njoku. In time, he might rise to higher tiers of TEs. Regardless of all else, he's still lacking NFL receiving skills. I am hopeful that they develop, but they aren't there yet. (Specifically, I am talking about reading gaps in the D & sitting. Also, shielding defenders from the pass with his body. Eliminating drops.) The rest of the TEs seem competent to me, so no dings for backups.
OL-5. A good, solid NFL-quality group. The backups leave me anxious, but that's often the case throughout the league. Much as I tout the quality here, I rarely see exceptional results on the field, so ultimately I assign them an average grade. REALLY hope JT returns!!!!
DL-7. This is a really good grade for a really good unit. I like the starters & I like the backups. If you want to give them an 8, fine!
LB-5. The starters are good. The backups are... not. Burgess killed us when Collins went down. If all the starters stayed healthy & played to their potential, maybe 8.
DB-3. This is our defensive Achilles Heel. The league is full of ball-hawks. Not here. IMO, they have work to do in order to approach "average" -- and that's just the starters. I have trouble recollecting any great plays from this group, but that might just be this old guy (me) getting older.
My $.02
Hiring mediocre recycled bums is a proven failure. Expect the Browns to hire him. Then he will in turn help get Robiskie a gig as well. It's all coming together browns fans.
the negativity in here. 
