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Cleveland Browns (2 Viewers)

daveR said:
So you say, but his team works hard & plays hard for him -- hallmarks of a good coach.

This is part of what I was getting at.  You hate the coach so much that you will twist basic stuff (like avoiding turnovers) to suit your agenda.  
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ok.  

but you get to make all the excuses in the world for him. 

1-31-1.  historically bad.  

Haley will be head coach week 5.  

 
Peak said:
Not so sure on the "Work Hard/Play Hard" comment.  Many of the gripes coming out of TC from Haley and Williams is that Hue's camp was more like a day care.  Even Landry balked at the idea of vets getting days off instead of setting a tone.  These guys didn't play hard for a full game until last Sunday.  It was a physical game, and its about time we saw one.  But the physicality didn't come from Hue's coaching ability.  It came from the new coaches and players who started to take charge and lead.  Hue is nothing more than a puppet head at this point.  He spent all Sunday roaming the sidelines yelling at the refs and still with a confused look on his face.  

As much as you think @amnesiac and others here have an agenda against Hue, it's pretty obvious you also have your own bias and turn a blind eye to one of the worst HCs in the league right now.
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I think you're both right.  The players play hard for him, but were prone to fading late in games last year because they're soft (a product of Hue's conditioning program) and poorly coached (opposing coach's adjustments > Hue's no adjustments).  Then you add to it Hue's inability to manage the game in...all situations.  So they may play hard for him, but given all of his other deficiencies it doesn't matter.

 
amnesiac said:
ok.  

but you get to make all the excuses in the world for him. 

1-31-1.  historically bad.  

Haley will be head coach week 5.  
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I was really hoping he'd continue his game-by-game review last year.  But void of his obvious bias.  I think he thinks he stopped because he was talking to brick walls, but perhaps he would have recognized his blind spot had he kept going.  IIRC he stopped after Indy just as he was about to enter Hue's train wreck of an October.

 
so, i looked it up.  

assuming Hue loses to New Orleans on the road, he will have coached 50 games and his record will be 9-40-1, putting him at 0.19, slotting in at second worst all time record between Bert Bell at 0.179 and Steve Spagnuolo at 0.212.  

Bert’s record was 10-46-2. 

assuming loses in week 3 and 4, when he is fired he will remain at #2 with a percentage of 0.183, but still with less wins than anyone on the list who coached 50 games. 

amazing stuff. 

 
daveR said:
More of the same.  You decide, from behind your TV set, that he is "confused".  Clearly, you cannot know that, so where does that opinion originate?
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I'm assuming you are watching the games.  I'm also assuming you can recognize a confused look on someone's face.  It's not hard to mistake, especially if you have kids.  Hue makes the same face on the sidelines...consistently.  You have had to have been involved in some conversations where people look at you confused.  Clearly, you should know what that looks like and can apply it to these situations when you see them.

 
Let me state my position, so there's no confusion about where I stand.  I'm a fan of the game who lives near Cleveland which makes me a Browns fan.  I suspect, if I lived in Chicago, I'd be a Bears fan.  I believe in continuity, so I want the coach kept in place for a few years as this rebuild continues.  I don't really care about the individual, per se.  I'm neither a fan, nor a detractor.  That being said, there is very little we can base our judgments on objectively.  We don't have a clue what practice consists of. We don't know what's in the CBA regarding practicing.  We don't see film study or position group dynamics.  We only rarely get to see the entire play unfold.  We don't know the play calls or the route trees.  We don't know the individuals involved, nor their intelligence.  Certainly, we don't know their thoughts.  

For my part, I'm a fan who wants to enjoy some wins.  When I look at the team, I can speculate about all sorts of things, or I can be objective and realize that there is very little I really know about them.  Goldhammer just called Hue dumb.  (Yep, the guy who was so overjoyed about Manziel that he literally cried for joy.  The guy that said he'd eat horse #### if we took Mayfield.)  Hypocrite or idiot, I'm not sure, but clearly letting emotion (hatred) color his opinion.  

 
daveR said:
I don't disagree.  Turnovers kill.  Kizer's league-leading int's were a HUGE part of 0-16.  TT throws darned few.  If we don't turn the ball over, the defense will win some games for us.  I realize TT's style is strange.  He doesn't like to take chances, so he waits.  For now, that's good enough.  Mayfield will get his opportunity to take over eventually.  He isn't going anywhere.  I'm interested to see if TT steps it up or if this is him.
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Tyrod apparently is a good leader and motivator in the lockeroom. If he can keep them even close to .500 I think he will have the job most of the year. It makes no sense to rush Mayfield if he's not ready, and we have already seen QBs benefit by having that first year to adjust to life in the NFL (look at Mahomes).

That said, if the team is 1-5-1 or something similar by October, the pressure I think will be too much and Mayfield will be in there. Personally, for Baker's sake, I'm hoping Tyrod does well. I think much of the caution on Sunday could be attributed to the conditions.

 
daveR said:
Let me state my position, so there's no confusion about where I stand.  I'm a fan of the game who lives near Cleveland which makes me a Browns fan.  I suspect, if I lived in Chicago, I'd be a Bears fan.  I believe in continuity, so I want the coach kept in place for a few years as this rebuild continues.  I don't really care about the individual, per se.  I'm neither a fan, nor a detractor.  That being said, there is very little we can base our judgments on objectively.  
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This is why I stopped here - there's plenty of (relatively) objective info to reference to explain why Hue Jackson is a terrible coach.  You just don't consider it because of the other unknowns you referenced and that you cannot pin it with absolute certainty.  Reasonableness isn't good enough - it has to be certain.  You allow yourself to get lost in those clouds and get tangled in the web of confusion, so in the end you don't know whether it was Hue who banged the table to trade a 2 and a 3 for AJ McCarron.  Or if it was Hue who told the media he's proving a point to Josh Gordon by not starting him, but not telling his own coaching staff.  Or if it was Hue who in similar circumstances did not do the same thing with Gordon 10 months prior.  Or if it was Hue who leaked through his media mouth piece that he wanted Deshaun Watson when the same mouth piece leaked that Hue wanted Hooker 6 months prior.

You said it yourself, we need continuity if we're ever going to win.  You're absolutely correct.  But you're also never going to be successful if the 2nd most important person in the organization makes terrible decisions, cannot effectively communicate, has no accountability, and points fingers elsewhere when things go poorly.  That's who we have right now.  A loser.

 
MAC_32 said:
This is why I stopped here - there's plenty of (relatively) objective info to reference to explain why Hue Jackson is a terrible coach.  You just don't consider it because of the other unknowns you referenced and that you cannot pin it with absolute certainty.  Reasonableness isn't good enough - it has to be certain.  You allow yourself to get lost in those clouds and get tangled in the web of confusion, so in the end you don't know whether it was Hue who banged the table to trade a 2 and a 3 for AJ McCarron.  Or if it was Hue who told the media he's proving a point to Josh Gordon by not starting him, but not telling his own coaching staff.  Or if it was Hue who in similar circumstances did not do the same thing with Gordon 10 months prior.  Or if it was Hue who leaked through his media mouth piece that he wanted Deshaun Watson when the same mouth piece leaked that Hue wanted Hooker 6 months prior.

You said it yourself, we need continuity if we're ever going to win.  You're absolutely correct.  But you're also never going to be successful if the 2nd most important person in the organization makes terrible decisions, cannot effectively communicate, has no accountability, and points fingers elsewhere when things go poorly.  That's who we have right now.  A loser.
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Fair enough.  Speculation is good enough for you, but not me.  I'm okay with that.

 
daveR said:
PIT had more.
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#1 - you're deflecting rather than addressing the issue

#2 - I don't think Mike Tomlin is a disciplined coach.  As a result I don't think the Steelers are a disciplined team.  Which is why they aren't even more successful.  They are despite it because they're talented, have a winning culture, and overcome those issues when they're focused.  They often aren't when they play teams like us.

#3 - see #1 and it relate it to the team in the mirror, not the one down the road.

 
i can think of one objective measure of a head coach’s abilities.  

but for some reason we make a lot of excuses for it and ignore it.  

 
amnesiac said:
i can think of one objective measure of a head coach’s abilities.  

but for some reason we make a lot of excuses for it and ignore it.  
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What's funny is that's one of the pieces of objective info I generally disregard.  I think the win-loss record is merely a function of everything else.  If you do everything else badly like Hue does then unless you have a star QB that masks those problems then I expect a lot of losses.  

 
Browns Coaching Records since the return in 1999....

Playoffs
Coach From To G W L T W-L%
Hue Jackson 2016 2018 33 1 31 1 .045
Mike Pettine 2014 2015 32 10 22 0 .313
Rob Chudzinski 2013 2013 16 4 12 0 .250
Pat Shurmur 2011 2012 32 9 23 0 .281
Eric Mangini 2009 2010 32 10 22 0 .313
Romeo Crennel 2005 2008 64 24 40 0 .375
Terry Robiskie 2004 2004 5 1 4 0 .200
Butch Davis 2001 2004 59 24 35 0 .407
Chris Palmer 1999 2000 32 5 27 0 .156


Based on record alone, Jackson is the WORST Cleveland Browns Head Coach since the return.  

 
amnesiac said:
he’s the second worse NFL coach of ALL TIME.

let that sink in.

(minimum 50 games, which will be this weekend)
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I was out looking for those records and then worked called and I had to step away.   :D

It's truly mind-boggling.  There's continuity, and then there's the definition of insane....Doing things over and over and over again, yet expecting different outcomes.  Why keep a HC with an all time losing record?  Do we really think it will magically change overnight?

 
Peak said:
I was out looking for those records and then worked called and I had to step away.   :D

It's truly mind-boggling.  There's continuity, and then there's the definition of insane....Doing things over and over and over again, yet expecting different outcomes.  Why keep a HC with an all time losing record?  Do we really think it will magically change overnight?
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go back a page or two, i looked it up and posted all the numbers.  

 
“This afternoon we informed Josh Gordon and his representatives that we are going to release him on Monday," Browns general manager John Dorsey said. "For the past six years, the Browns have fully supported and invested in Josh, both personally and professionally and wanted the best for him, but unfortunately we’ve reached a point where we feel it’s best to part ways and move forward. We wish Josh well.”

 
They have to cut Gonzalez don't they?

Or do they change his uniform name to GONEzalez then cut him?

And it's a short week playing Thursday.

Is Dorsey on the phone calling kickers to come in Monday, right now?

 
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I got nothing for this team anymore, just drained.

Losing, it's contagious man...contagious...####### contagious man...contagious

 
Desmond Harrison looked vastly improved over last week, zero penalties and on the first run play he pancaked his guy.

I wasn't entirely focused in on him but he did a solid job in pass-pro every time I looked his way.

Apparently others noticed he played well.

-------------------------------------------

Brent Sobleski‏ @brentsobleski

FollowFollow @brentsobleski

Desmond Harrison is easily winning the rookie battle against Marcus Davenport, whom the Saints traded a future first-round pick to acquire in this year's opening frame. Granted, Davenport hasn't had an opportunity to pin his ears back.

11:11 AM - 16 Sep 2018

-----------------------------------------

 
Actually had a dream of Mayfield playing and he threw a BOMB td to someone, no idea who... The crowd was going bananas. 

That should be happening on Thursday. 

I was 100% on board with the "sit Baker as long as necessary" crowd.... But the fact that we could 100%, very easily be 2-0 right now against stud teams, and leaving thursday 3-0, makes me nauseous. 

Baker mayfield could be the BIGGEST qb name in the nfl this morning, moreso than Mahomes, if they'd have started with him in week 1.

Browns 2-0, under BM.

dammit

 
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Soulfly3 said:
Actually had a dream of Mayfield playing and he threw a BOMB td to someone, no idea who...
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I bet I can guess.

Bag on Taylor and Hue if you want, but whoever made the decision on the PK is the one who cost the Browns two wins. 

I do agree this team is going to be good once Mayfield takes over.  Especially if they find a deep threat to go with Landry and Njoku.

 
I'd actually be ok if they start TT this week and he schittes the bed just enough for another loss , then fire Hue , replace with Haley and insert BM and Chubb, that is all.

Despite all the stooopidity of Hue, the Browns would likely still be 2-0 if not for just 2 totally BS calls on the defense.

The roughing call on Garrett last week, handed Pit a TD after a stop.(League admitted it was BS)

The defensive illegal contact after Ogunjobi's 3rd sack, a stop with the lead late. Led to a TD 2 plays later.

These game changing BS calls need to stop, it's turning the NFL into Wrestling(Fake).

 
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