NJDawgPound
Footballguy
Skins got him.
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Cleveland Browns (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
What failure? That the QB who fell to them 1-2 rounds further than anyone thought, who they didn't really love but was the top player on their board when the guy they wanted was taken one pick earlier, didn't work out? I think they can live with that 'failure'.
Fensalk
Footballguy
Holmgren is putting the pressure on himself and the franchise to make a "big jump" in 2012. I don't think that is very wise. I don't think a big jump is coming. I think 4 wins would be pushing it.
http://varsity.limaohio.com/articles/kampf-8704-browns-says.html
Browns expect 'big jump' after draft
April 28, 2012 10:04 PM
BEREA, Ohio (AP) — From the outset, the Cleveland Browns were decisive and daring in this year’s NFL draft.
They had to get this one right — a must-win.
Convinced they couldn’t risk waiting for the players they wanted, the Browns wasted little time in selecting Alabama running back Trent Richardson and Oklahoma State quarterback Brandon Weeden, two potential franchise-changing players, in the first round and then spent the next two days addressing other needs.
They got deeper. The got faster. They got tougher.
And, the Browns, who went 4-12 last season in the NFL’s toughest division, believe they got better, significantly better.
“We’d all like to see a big jump this year, that’s our hope,” president Mike Holmgren said. “We think that’s possible. That’s reasonable.”
Cleveland concluded three days of selections on Saturday by taking seven more players, including Travis Benjamin, a speed-burning wide receiver from Miami who will stretch defenses and allow Weeden to air out that high-powered arm that made the Browns fall in love with him. In all, the Browns selected six offensive players and five on defense.
None of them, though, are as important as Weeden, the 28-year-old QB and former minor league baseball pitcher the Browns hope can end years of failure at the game’s most vital position.
“The quarterback play is so important to any team,” Holmgren said. “And really in this business, your team is probably as good as how your quarterback plays and the play of that position.”
The Browns were desperate to fix their quarterback conundrum, so much so that Holmgren revealed that he spoke to the Indianapolis Colts at the scouting combine about a trade for Andrew Luck, the No. 1 overall pick in this year’s draft. Cleveland also pursued a trade to move up and get Robert Griffin III, but was outbid by Washington, which selected the Heisman Trophy winner from Baylor behind Luck.
Cleveland’s next target was Weeden, and the Browns made sure they didn’t miss him.
Holmgren said Weeden will not be handed the starter’s job, but conceded the team probably wouldn’t have taken him with the No. 22 pick if it didn’t intend to play him immediately. Holmgren, who coached Joe Montana, Steve Young and Brett Favre, has been searching for a franchise quarterback since arriving in Cleveland three years ago.
Is his mission complete?
“Well, I won’t feel real good about it until it happens,” he said. “We’ll keep looking. We really like our quarterbacks, I like ‘em all. And this young man is an impressive guy.”
Weeden’s arrival signals the start of a new era in Cleveland and, in all likelihood, Colt McCoy’s exit after two inconsistent seasons as the Browns’ starter.
Holmgren praised McCoy, whom he selected in the third round of the 2010 draft, and refused to say if the team intended to trade him. Holmgren called McCoy’s situation “an ongoing thing” and said it’s possible McCoy could remain with the Browns in a backup role.
“Colt McCoy is a special young man,” Holmgren said. “Of course he wants to play, they all want to play. Again, nothing’s been done yet. We don’t know how it’s going to sort itself out. But if that (McCoy as a backup) were to be the case at some point, we have the best chance of making that work because of who the people are, who the players are. It’s never easy, everyone wants to play, but you’ve only got one ball and only one guy can play at a time.”
Shurmur has spoken to McCoy “a couple of times” and said he expects him to be at the team’s offseason conditioning program next week.
“He’s looking forward to coming back here and getting himself ready to compete to be the quarterback of the Cleveland Browns,” Shurmur said.
But the selection of Weeden would seem to end any discussion about McCoy ever lining up behind center for the Browns again. Shurmur believes Weeden’s addition will improve everything about Cleveland’s offense.
“I think an outstanding quarterback brings synergy to the whole team,” Shurmur said. “Just like the addition of a running back helps the quarterback. A quarterback that throws the ball accurately on time makes the receivers look good. Receivers that make circus catches or make the hard catches make the quarterback look good. When the quarterback has a little bit more time to throw it because the line is doing their job, it makes everything look good.
“It’s all connected. It’s hard on offense to talk about one specifically not connected to the other. But I do know this, when you have outstanding quarterback play, all the players on offense and all the people in this room, we all look good.”
Holmgren said the decision to trade three late picks to Minnesota and move up to pick Richardson was an easy one. Although he liked Oklahoma State wide receiver Justin Blackmon “a lot” and was impressed with LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne, Richardson was the complete package.
“He’ll make everybody look better,” Holmgren said. “Every team is better when you have that kind of running back.”
The Browns were criticized for overlooking wide receivers in the first three rounds, but they snatched the speedy Benjamin with the first of their two fourth-round picks.
“He’s extremely fast,” Shurmur said. “We got him clocked down around 4.3 (in the 40). He’d beat anybody in here. He can really go.”
With their next pick, the Browns took Nevada linebacker James-Michael Johnson and then used their first of two picks in the fifth round on 6-foot-7 Colorado offensive lineman Ryan Miller, who can play guard and tackle and has a nasty streak.
“I try to play vicious,” he said. “I’ll give you my all and I’ll bleed, bite, crawl and scratch to get the job done.”
The Browns took Texas linebacker Emmanuel Acho and Boise State defensive tackle Billy Winn in the sixth round, and grabbed Arizona defensive back Trevin Wade in the seventh before closing their draft by taking Alabama fullback Brad Smelley, who can’t wait to be reunited with Richardson.
“He’s the best back I’ve ever seen,” Smelley said. “I’m excited to play with him again.”
Holmgren came away enthused about what the Browns accomplished.
With general manager Tom Heckert making the calls, Cleveland added some pieces. Now, he just has to hope they fit together.
“Our team foundation is better,” Holmgren said. “Now, we have to be able to score points. That was a problem for us last year and so I think we’ve addressed that a little bit. Are we ready to jump into elite status? I don’t know what that means necessarily. But I am anticipating a good jump in our level of play.”
http://varsity.limaohio.com/articles/kampf-8704-browns-says.html
Browns expect 'big jump' after draft
April 28, 2012 10:04 PM
BEREA, Ohio (AP) — From the outset, the Cleveland Browns were decisive and daring in this year’s NFL draft.
They had to get this one right — a must-win.
Convinced they couldn’t risk waiting for the players they wanted, the Browns wasted little time in selecting Alabama running back Trent Richardson and Oklahoma State quarterback Brandon Weeden, two potential franchise-changing players, in the first round and then spent the next two days addressing other needs.
They got deeper. The got faster. They got tougher.
And, the Browns, who went 4-12 last season in the NFL’s toughest division, believe they got better, significantly better.
“We’d all like to see a big jump this year, that’s our hope,” president Mike Holmgren said. “We think that’s possible. That’s reasonable.”
Cleveland concluded three days of selections on Saturday by taking seven more players, including Travis Benjamin, a speed-burning wide receiver from Miami who will stretch defenses and allow Weeden to air out that high-powered arm that made the Browns fall in love with him. In all, the Browns selected six offensive players and five on defense.
None of them, though, are as important as Weeden, the 28-year-old QB and former minor league baseball pitcher the Browns hope can end years of failure at the game’s most vital position.
“The quarterback play is so important to any team,” Holmgren said. “And really in this business, your team is probably as good as how your quarterback plays and the play of that position.”
The Browns were desperate to fix their quarterback conundrum, so much so that Holmgren revealed that he spoke to the Indianapolis Colts at the scouting combine about a trade for Andrew Luck, the No. 1 overall pick in this year’s draft. Cleveland also pursued a trade to move up and get Robert Griffin III, but was outbid by Washington, which selected the Heisman Trophy winner from Baylor behind Luck.
Cleveland’s next target was Weeden, and the Browns made sure they didn’t miss him.
Holmgren said Weeden will not be handed the starter’s job, but conceded the team probably wouldn’t have taken him with the No. 22 pick if it didn’t intend to play him immediately. Holmgren, who coached Joe Montana, Steve Young and Brett Favre, has been searching for a franchise quarterback since arriving in Cleveland three years ago.
Is his mission complete?
“Well, I won’t feel real good about it until it happens,” he said. “We’ll keep looking. We really like our quarterbacks, I like ‘em all. And this young man is an impressive guy.”
Weeden’s arrival signals the start of a new era in Cleveland and, in all likelihood, Colt McCoy’s exit after two inconsistent seasons as the Browns’ starter.
Holmgren praised McCoy, whom he selected in the third round of the 2010 draft, and refused to say if the team intended to trade him. Holmgren called McCoy’s situation “an ongoing thing” and said it’s possible McCoy could remain with the Browns in a backup role.
“Colt McCoy is a special young man,” Holmgren said. “Of course he wants to play, they all want to play. Again, nothing’s been done yet. We don’t know how it’s going to sort itself out. But if that (McCoy as a backup) were to be the case at some point, we have the best chance of making that work because of who the people are, who the players are. It’s never easy, everyone wants to play, but you’ve only got one ball and only one guy can play at a time.”
Shurmur has spoken to McCoy “a couple of times” and said he expects him to be at the team’s offseason conditioning program next week.
“He’s looking forward to coming back here and getting himself ready to compete to be the quarterback of the Cleveland Browns,” Shurmur said.
But the selection of Weeden would seem to end any discussion about McCoy ever lining up behind center for the Browns again. Shurmur believes Weeden’s addition will improve everything about Cleveland’s offense.
“I think an outstanding quarterback brings synergy to the whole team,” Shurmur said. “Just like the addition of a running back helps the quarterback. A quarterback that throws the ball accurately on time makes the receivers look good. Receivers that make circus catches or make the hard catches make the quarterback look good. When the quarterback has a little bit more time to throw it because the line is doing their job, it makes everything look good.
“It’s all connected. It’s hard on offense to talk about one specifically not connected to the other. But I do know this, when you have outstanding quarterback play, all the players on offense and all the people in this room, we all look good.”
Holmgren said the decision to trade three late picks to Minnesota and move up to pick Richardson was an easy one. Although he liked Oklahoma State wide receiver Justin Blackmon “a lot” and was impressed with LSU cornerback Morris Claiborne, Richardson was the complete package.
“He’ll make everybody look better,” Holmgren said. “Every team is better when you have that kind of running back.”
The Browns were criticized for overlooking wide receivers in the first three rounds, but they snatched the speedy Benjamin with the first of their two fourth-round picks.
“He’s extremely fast,” Shurmur said. “We got him clocked down around 4.3 (in the 40). He’d beat anybody in here. He can really go.”
With their next pick, the Browns took Nevada linebacker James-Michael Johnson and then used their first of two picks in the fifth round on 6-foot-7 Colorado offensive lineman Ryan Miller, who can play guard and tackle and has a nasty streak.
“I try to play vicious,” he said. “I’ll give you my all and I’ll bleed, bite, crawl and scratch to get the job done.”
The Browns took Texas linebacker Emmanuel Acho and Boise State defensive tackle Billy Winn in the sixth round, and grabbed Arizona defensive back Trevin Wade in the seventh before closing their draft by taking Alabama fullback Brad Smelley, who can’t wait to be reunited with Richardson.
“He’s the best back I’ve ever seen,” Smelley said. “I’m excited to play with him again.”
Holmgren came away enthused about what the Browns accomplished.
With general manager Tom Heckert making the calls, Cleveland added some pieces. Now, he just has to hope they fit together.
“Our team foundation is better,” Holmgren said. “Now, we have to be able to score points. That was a problem for us last year and so I think we’ve addressed that a little bit. Are we ready to jump into elite status? I don’t know what that means necessarily. But I am anticipating a good jump in our level of play.”
nxmehta
Footballguy
Scenario: we don't draft a QB
Scenario: we don't draft a RT
Scenario: we don't draft a CB
I guess we're supposed to draft all of our needs in round 1. If only we had 10 1st round picks...You're done with the team? Great.
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
Solid draft IMO.
Questionable moves? Sure. But only time will tell if they work out or not. Grading drafts right when they're over is one of the most useless exercises out there. Let the blowhards post their "grades." They don't mean ####.
Only way to grade a team's draft right now is to ask if they filled the team's greatest needs adequately. Browns did IMO.
(Yes, I know they passed on WRs...big deal...they filled in nicely around that position enough that it should hopefully impact the ones they have positively.)
Questionable moves? Sure. But only time will tell if they work out or not. Grading drafts right when they're over is one of the most useless exercises out there. Let the blowhards post their "grades." They don't mean ####.
Only way to grade a team's draft right now is to ask if they filled the team's greatest needs adequately. Browns did IMO.
(Yes, I know they passed on WRs...big deal...they filled in nicely around that position enough that it should hopefully impact the ones they have positively.)
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I think we had a solid real Saturday, possibly besides the WR...I'd like to hear how he'll be used though. JML, Acho, Winn and Wade seem like they might be contributors soon. Not sure what the deal is with Smelley...I don't think anyone thought Owen looked good last year, but he was just a rookie.It's easy to question some things based on who we did draft, but it all came down to really wanting Weeden. It defined the draft. You go stud guard there, and still get Weeden, this draft becomes another animal. TRich, DeCastro, Weeden, and Massie (or Schwartz) would be pretty nasty. They just didn't want to risk losing Weeden, I get it...sorta too bad we had to use those picks to secure TRich as that could have been the ammo to get from 37 back into the 1st.
Alot of people, including myself, are shocked we didn't address WR more in this draft, especially after taking Weeden. That's basically 2 FA periods and a draft in a row. Maybe we'll be able to bring in a cut casualty easier now that we have some semblence of offense, there could be some interesting names out there.
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
I keep hearing we got played by Minnesota for Richardson. Well it cost Washington 3 firsts and a second to move up 2 spots to get their guy. It cost us a 4th, 5th, and 7th to move up 1 spot to make sure we get our guy.
And WASHINGTON gets crowned?
And WASHINGTON gets crowned?
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'll make it easy on you so you can just bump one post*We had zero plan B for Kendall Wright in round 1 so we panicked and took Weeden, I've been saying for weeks my biggest concern is what we'll do at WR if take Richardson early because I didn't think the top 3 would fall and the drop off was large after them. Somehow these guys didn't make a plan if that happened. Astonishing.*Us in 2013 = Jax and Minny in 2012, content with our 2nd rate QB and won't make a move for a clearly superior option*Us in 2014 = Jax and Minny in 2013, firings in front office in large part due to the above*Massaquoi is the worst starting wide receiver in the league, yeah we got sniped for Wright and the drop off at WR was quite large after him but there's a large blanket of WR's out there and we didn't pick a single one to try and take Massaquoi's spot. No, the midget 4th WR/kick returner we reached on doesn't count.*I won't pretend to know anything about Jon Hughes, but I do know that no one else was likely considering him for more than 100 picks so regardless of how he pans out it was a dumb pick because we could have made better picks at 87, 101, 120, and 160 then came back with him with one of the comp picks in the 6th.*Similar case, but less severe with Benjamin, no one was probably looking at him for at least another round. If you wanted him so bad then get a legit potential #2 WR at pick 101 then come back with Benjamin at 160 - he was going to be there.*At least 2 of Criner, McNutt, Childs, Sanu, and Owusu who we could've drafted at 87 will have meaningful roles on their teams (if Childs over comes his knee and Owusu his head more will), at least 1 will be a starter. All have the potential to play the outside WR position that we so badly need upgraded.*We will lose at least 10 games and will probably be picking in the top 5 again, my only hope is that we are somewhat watchable unlike last year but my hopes are not high obviously.There's going to be some awesome bumps in this thread 8 months from now. We're going to see how correct some of you are compared to Tom Heckert.Let's just say I'm not betting on your ability to evaluate 4th-7th round talent in the NFL Draft
MAC_32
Footballguy
Nope. If we either traded a pick to move up and get Wright then come back with Schwartz at the top of the 2nd or used the 22 and 37 to move up and get Floyd (heard we only offered 22 and 67 with AZ because we wanted 37 for Weeden) I would LOVE this draft. Even with the bonehead Hughes move.RichardsonWrightSchwartzDevelopmental QBJMJHughesAchoWinnWadeSmelleyThat's a $ draft. RichardsonFloydMassieDevelopmental QBJMJHughesAchoWinnWadeSmelleyThat is too. One pick ruined it and set us back at least 3 years and probably closer to 5. Again. Send in the Clowns...
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
You guys did NOT get played at all. It was a cheap price to pay.
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
Thanks man. We would have been left with Kalil, Claiborne or Blackmon. We didn't need Kalil, we needed a CB but not at #4, and Blackmon simply isn't elite. I understand this is more of a throwing league but Richardson is elite and will open things up for the rest of the offense. It's a pick that had to be made and we would have been laughing stocks had we let Tampa steal him.
MAC_32
Footballguy
We may have found something in Wade, watched a lot of Pac 10 ball this year and caught a few AZ games - guy can ball. Write up's about him seem to match what I saw, he may able to play outside against most teams. Speed tends to get him, but looking at our opponents as long as Haden takes Torrey Smith our only mismatch will be Pittsburgh.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
So taking Weeden and Benjamin rather than Wright and random developmental QB takes this draft from '$' to setting them back 3-5 years?Stop. Seriously.
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
That's good to hear. I know nothing about Wade. I was pretty impressed with Buster Skrine last year. He's a burner who can help out with the speed mismatches. He should improve and be a solid situational player.
MAC_32
Footballguy
We're probably winning 3-5 games, tops, this year regardless. If we won more it would be because Colt stepped his game up, then we wouldn't need to worry about upgrading QB. Assuming we didn't then we'd be in a great spot to draft the best QB available next year, he'd be coming into a situation without (dare I say) any holes anywhere on the entire roster. What a great situation for a rookie QB to walk into. We're probably no better than 8-8 year 1, but I think we're a legit contender by year 2 with all of these pieces around him.Instead we took a 2nd rate QB and then failed to upgrade one of the league's worst 5 WR corps. No chance we are not picking in the top 5 again next year with a rookie QB under center learning an offense that takes 2+ years to feel comfortable running. Shurmur will be the fall guy this year, which may not be a bad thing because he's completely in over his head. Problem is this regime has it set up for a failure to take over the job if Shurmur goes. Failure of a coach + 2nd rate QB leads to another lousy 2014. Since it's Holmgren's final year of his contract he'll fall on the swrod since based off his actions I don't think he even really cares about being here anyway.That takes us to 2014, last chance for Heckert to right this ship. Do we wise up and move on from the 2nd rate Weeden? or does the bull headed personnel guy keep 'staying the course?' Either way when a front office is in panic mode because they know their job is on the line poor short sighted decisions are often made. Best case, he gets the ship righted and we're on our way come 2015. More likely scenario, new regime is brought in 2015 and needs 2-3 years to transition in their guys and flush out the H&H guys. So, yes, if this pick doesn't pan out it just set the franchise back 3 years minimum and very likely 5 years. That's what happens any time you make a poor pick at QB in round 1. Even the eternal optimst can't look at Weeden + Shurmur, the 2 most important positions on the football team, and say it's not one of the worst tandems in the NFL.And I'll still sit through every minute of this season, I'm insane...
nxmehta
Footballguy
Here's a collection of my favorite, more "opinionated" posts from the last couple days! Let's bump this sometime during the actual season.
Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
MAC_32
Footballguy
2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
rizzler
Footballguy
Hahahaha, totally offtopic, but watching the whole Tim Couch selection and process on NFLN right now...
Lerner smiling away, jacked at taking Couch over McNabb and Culpepper (and to a lesser extent Akili, who in hindsight, sucked)
Rooooooooooooooooough.
Very rough.
Though they all wouldve flopped here, so who cares?
ETA: What an effing draft that was... rnd 1 pro bowlers: mcnabb, edge james, ricky williams, holt, bailey, boston, mccalister, culpepper, tait, kearse, woody, winfield, kerney, wilson
oof. double oof.
Lerner smiling away, jacked at taking Couch over McNabb and Culpepper (and to a lesser extent Akili, who in hindsight, sucked)
Rooooooooooooooooough.
Very rough.
Though they all wouldve flopped here, so who cares?
ETA: What an effing draft that was... rnd 1 pro bowlers: mcnabb, edge james, ricky williams, holt, bailey, boston, mccalister, culpepper, tait, kearse, woody, winfield, kerney, wilson
oof. double oof.
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nxmehta
Footballguy
Did you have access to the other 31 teams' draft boards? Otherwise, this is a fallacious (and frankly tiresome) argument.If conventional rankings were correct we wouldn't see Bruce Irvin going at pick #15.In any case, here's your same argument with another player. Let's see if you agree with it!"The Pats could have had Tom Brady in round 7. Terrible pick, because he would have been available later in the draft."You could make the same argument for almost any other player in any draft. Why? Because you are assuming that something that is impossible to be known is true- that a given player could be had later. Therefore, the argument is2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Given all that had happened to that point, and without trading back, who would you have taken at 22 and 37?'MAC_32 said:We're probably winning 3-5 games, tops, this year regardless. If we won more it would be because Colt stepped his game up, then we wouldn't need to worry about upgrading QB. Assuming we didn't then we'd be in a great spot to draft the best QB available next year, he'd be coming into a situation without (dare I say) any holes anywhere on the entire roster. What a great situation for a rookie QB to walk into. We're probably no better than 8-8 year 1, but I think we're a legit contender by year 2 with all of these pieces around him.Instead we took a 2nd rate QB and then failed to upgrade one of the league's worst 5 WR corps. No chance we are not picking in the top 5 again next year with a rookie QB under center learning an offense that takes 2+ years to feel comfortable running. Shurmur will be the fall guy this year, which may not be a bad thing because he's completely in over his head. Problem is this regime has it set up for a failure to take over the job if Shurmur goes. Failure of a coach + 2nd rate QB leads to another lousy 2014. Since it's Holmgren's final year of his contract he'll fall on the swrod since based off his actions I don't think he even really cares about being here anyway.'Captain Quinoa said:'MAC_32 said:
Stop. Seriously.
That takes us to 2014, last chance for Heckert to right this ship. Do we wise up and move on from the 2nd rate Weeden? or does the bull headed personnel guy keep 'staying the course?' Either way when a front office is in panic mode because they know their job is on the line poor short sighted decisions are often made.
Best case, he gets the ship righted and we're on our way come 2015. More likely scenario, new regime is brought in 2015 and needs 2-3 years to transition in their guys and flush out the H&H guys. So, yes, if this pick doesn't pan out it just set the franchise back 3 years minimum and very likely 5 years.
That's what happens any time you make a poor pick at QB in round 1. Even the eternal optimst can't look at Weeden + Shurmur, the 2 most important positions on the football team, and say it's not one of the worst tandems in the NFL.
And I'll still sit through every minute of this season, I'm insane...
amnesiac
beer is good
it only takes one other team to value a guy the same as you and then he doesn't fall to your next pick.
as soon as they took Weeden i thought, geez these guys are nuts, they could have had him with their next pick. but how do we actually know that?
and if McCoy had gone out and crapped the bed this season, we would have crucified the Browns for not getting a better QB.
the more i think about it, the more i like what they did.
is it risky? absolutely. did they get the guys they wanted that they feel will help turn this team around? absolutely.
you honestly believe a guard was going to make as big of a difference as Weeden will if he pans out? i don't. and neither did the Browns.
as soon as they took Weeden i thought, geez these guys are nuts, they could have had him with their next pick. but how do we actually know that?
and if McCoy had gone out and crapped the bed this season, we would have crucified the Browns for not getting a better QB.
the more i think about it, the more i like what they did.
is it risky? absolutely. did they get the guys they wanted that they feel will help turn this team around? absolutely.
you honestly believe a guard was going to make as big of a difference as Weeden will if he pans out? i don't. and neither did the Browns.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Everything I've heard about both players from the media and scouts they've talked to have said both guys were either not on their board or at the very end of it. I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Hughes, if Heckert thinks he can play then great, but when every single source questioned about it has said something along the lines of he was either not on our board or at the very end of it then, yes, he was going to be there later. Benjamin may be a more compelling case because of his raw speed and I am intrigued by him because of just that, if there's one area this team needs a shot in the arm it's team speed. However, every single piece of info out there says due to his size and lack of production he was not a consideration until the very end of the draft, if at all. I'd have much less of a problem with the pick if we had drafted a WR to that point or found one after it, but we had and did not. He's a developmental guy, only. Developmental guys are great, we also need someone who might be able to help one of the league's worst WR corps now. Since we failed to address WR otherwise this pick makes much more sense on a team that doesn't need help now.Did you have access to the other 31 teams' draft boards? Otherwise, this is a fallacious (and frankly tiresome) argument.If conventional rankings were correct we wouldn't see Bruce Irvin going at pick #15.In any case, here's your same argument with another player. Let's see if you agree with it!"The Pats could have had Tom Brady in round 7. Terrible pick, because he would have been available later in the draft."You could make the same argument for almost any other player in any draft. Why? Because you are assuming that something that is impossible to be known is true- that a given player could be had later. Therefore, the argument is2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
MAC_32
Footballguy
DeCastro at 22. I'd have traded up from 37 to get Upshaw once I saw he slipped that far, but if we're not allowing trades I like the Schwartz pick. Obviously this means we get another player instead of Ryan Miller later though. A WR like Sanu, Criner, McNutt, etc. would have been it instead.We'd then have an elite running game and a competent passing game. If Colt steps up then we look for elite WR's, DL's or a CB next year. If he doesn't then throw everything and the kitchen sink to fix QB after failing to get RG3 this year.Given all that had happened to that point, and without trading back, who would you have taken at 22 and 37?'MAC_32 said:We're probably winning 3-5 games, tops, this year regardless. If we won more it would be because Colt stepped his game up, then we wouldn't need to worry about upgrading QB. Assuming we didn't then we'd be in a great spot to draft the best QB available next year, he'd be coming into a situation without (dare I say) any holes anywhere on the entire roster. What a great situation for a rookie QB to walk into. We're probably no better than 8-8 year 1, but I think we're a legit contender by year 2 with all of these pieces around him.Instead we took a 2nd rate QB and then failed to upgrade one of the league's worst 5 WR corps. No chance we are not picking in the top 5 again next year with a rookie QB under center learning an offense that takes 2+ years to feel comfortable running. Shurmur will be the fall guy this year, which may not be a bad thing because he's completely in over his head. Problem is this regime has it set up for a failure to take over the job if Shurmur goes. Failure of a coach + 2nd rate QB leads to another lousy 2014. Since it's Holmgren's final year of his contract he'll fall on the swrod since based off his actions I don't think he even really cares about being here anyway.'Captain Quinoa said:'MAC_32 said:
Stop. Seriously.
That takes us to 2014, last chance for Heckert to right this ship. Do we wise up and move on from the 2nd rate Weeden? or does the bull headed personnel guy keep 'staying the course?' Either way when a front office is in panic mode because they know their job is on the line poor short sighted decisions are often made.
Best case, he gets the ship righted and we're on our way come 2015. More likely scenario, new regime is brought in 2015 and needs 2-3 years to transition in their guys and flush out the H&H guys. So, yes, if this pick doesn't pan out it just set the franchise back 3 years minimum and very likely 5 years.
That's what happens any time you make a poor pick at QB in round 1. Even the eternal optimst can't look at Weeden + Shurmur, the 2 most important positions on the football team, and say it's not one of the worst tandems in the NFL.
And I'll still sit through every minute of this season, I'm insane...
MAC_32
Footballguy
Only if Tannehill and Weeden prove to be decent QB's. If they don't, which clearly I think is the case, then we made the correct decision regardless of how Colt plays.
daveR
Footballguy
Dude, you have access to no one's draft board. Period. You may have heard other people who are paid to fill the airwaves give their opinions, but they're guessing too. The Browns were 30th against the run last year. Do you think they needed to address that? Do you think you know better than them about a player's value or where he might be taken? I realize you're a cynic and you were going to complain no matter what, but "c'mon man"!2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
amnesiac
beer is good
if you read between the lines, it is obvious they feel the WRs the Browns have are better than what was available in the draft.
and that the problem was McCoy.
even if Weeden isn't that good right away, the threat of the deep ball is going to open things up for the short game and the running game. The offense should be much better.
how many games were there last year that they didn't even attempt a pass over 15 yards? they had no faith in McCoy and the other teams knew it.
their entire strategy revolves around Weeden. that's why they couldn't risk him being taken before their next pick.
but if he craps the bed they are seriously ####ed.
and that the problem was McCoy.
even if Weeden isn't that good right away, the threat of the deep ball is going to open things up for the short game and the running game. The offense should be much better.
how many games were there last year that they didn't even attempt a pass over 15 yards? they had no faith in McCoy and the other teams knew it.
their entire strategy revolves around Weeden. that's why they couldn't risk him being taken before their next pick.
but if he craps the bed they are seriously ####ed.
duece2626
Footballguy
And who would that "deep threat" be that is currently on the Browns roster?
MAC_32
Footballguy
I'm not talking about the guys on knr and the fan, I'm talking about the sources/scouts every media outlet has pulled in throughout the last 9 months and especially this weekend. Find me more than one outside of Cleveland that says these guys were top 200 players. I'd love to read it.The only one of my teams (Michigan, Tigers, Cavs) I complain about is the Browns, there's a reason for that. I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist. If you want to set yourself up for disappointment I'm not going to stop you. I'm going to sit through every game just like you and everyone else. My expectations just aren't the same.Dude, you have access to no one's draft board. Period. You may have heard other people who are paid to fill the airwaves give their opinions, but they're guessing too. The Browns were 30th against the run last year. Do you think they needed to address that? Do you think you know better than them about a player's value or where he might be taken? I realize you're a cynic and you were going to complain no matter what, but "c'mon man"!2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
I listened on and off all weekend to the draft coverage on ESPN Cleveland and they seemed to get the impression from the front office about Benjamin that 1) he compares well to DeSean Jackson and 2) he very well will be in the competition for #1 receiver.
The word all weekend regarding Benjamin has been raw speed. Whether or not he's a project or not remains to be seen but we did need speed there and he's got it.
The word all weekend regarding Benjamin has been raw speed. Whether or not he's a project or not remains to be seen but we did need speed there and he's got it.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Don't disagree with that, but there are holes everywhere in their analysis if they think Colt was the only problem.They drafted Colt not wanting to play him for at least a year. He got forced into action due to injury and the coaching staff never seemed to give him a fair shake until they had to. He looked alright in limited duty, but nothing special. Then we have a lockout shortened off season. Bring back Mangini retreads Robiskie and Massaquoi. Bring in a WR who had one year of experience at the position and hadn't played football in 18 months. Add a receiving tight end...that never played. Add a new system and no time to learn it, from a coach that had more blunders in one season than I can ever remember seeintg at any level. With no running game because Hillis went AWOL, Hardesty sucks/can't stay healthy, the 3rd stringer was IR'd in camp, and the anchor at LG did too. In the end the only added asset was a slot WR (Norwood) that didn't see the field much until December. It was all a mess.But Colt is the only one to blame. Shurmur, every RB, every LG, every RT, and every pass catcher sucked the whole year too. Why even blow the pick on Colt to develop if you're going to do this? Mike liked him so much to take him where he did, then never gave him a shot to develop before moving on.I'm not defending Colt, if pressed I would say we move on from him next year, but settling for a 2nd rate QB given all of the above among other things is not the answer. In fact, none of this makes sense in of itself. Got a pretty juicy rumor from a pretty reliable source yesterday that this call was made by Randy. If true, I'm more convinced than ever we'll never win as long as he's around.
amnesiac
beer is good
i was referring to the QBs arm strength more than anything, but the WR they took does have speed if nothing else.
amnesiac
beer is good
I'm not saying they are necessarily right, just seems to be their thought process. also, teams learn a lot about players watching them in practice every day. they may have seen all they felt they needed to know.
MAC_32
Footballguy
He looks little different to me now than he did when he was at Texas. It's why I wasn't a fan of the Colt pick from the beginning. If they're basing their decision off of what they've seen the last 2 years then there's even more reason to question these guys' evaluation methods.
daveR
Footballguy
A realist says, "It would have been nice to maximize value on draft day. I sure hope they did because I don't have info from the 31 other teams." A cynic assumes that anything negative he hears is true.I'm not talking about the guys on knr and the fan, I'm talking about the sources/scouts every media outlet has pulled in throughout the last 9 months and especially this weekend. Find me more than one outside of Cleveland that says these guys were top 200 players. I'd love to read it.The only one of my teams (Michigan, Tigers, Cavs) I complain about is the Browns, there's a reason for that. I'm not a cynic, I'm a realist. If you want to set yourself up for disappointment I'm not going to stop you. I'm going to sit through every game just like you and everyone else. My expectations just aren't the same.Dude, you have access to no one's draft board. Period. You may have heard other people who are paid to fill the airwaves give their opinions, but they're guessing too. The Browns were 30th against the run last year. Do you think they needed to address that? Do you think you know better than them about a player's value or where he might be taken? I realize you're a cynic and you were going to complain no matter what, but "c'mon man"!2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
re: Hughes...I'll 2nd this.And really, since it was brought up, the only people to even give a half of a listen to regarding the NFL draft on local airwaves would be Fedor and the BSK. I have not caught much of the BSK since the draft started, but I believe Fedor was sourcing scouts in both conferences regarding Hughes.I'm not talking about the guys on knr and the fan, I'm talking about the sources/scouts every media outlet has pulled in throughout the last 9 months and especially this weekend. Find me more than one outside of Cleveland that says these guys were top 200 players. I'd love to read it.Dude, you have access to no one's draft board. Period. You may have heard other people who are paid to fill the airwaves give their opinions, but they're guessing too. The Browns were 30th against the run last year. Do you think they needed to address that? Do you think you know better than them about a player's value or where he might be taken? I realize you're a cynic and you were going to complain no matter what, but "c'mon man"!2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
That said, hope Hughes is a beast vs the run. Keeping our starting DTs relatively fresh will be nothing but positive.
daveR
Footballguy
Agreed. I hope he's everything the Browns project him to be. Regarding "scouts" and other draft boards, how many sources had Bruce Irvin going #15?re: Hughes...I'll 2nd this.And really, since it was brought up, the only people to even give a half of a listen to regarding the NFL draft on local airwaves would be Fedor and the BSK. I have not caught much of the BSK since the draft started, but I believe Fedor was sourcing scouts in both conferences regarding Hughes.I'm not talking about the guys on knr and the fan, I'm talking about the sources/scouts every media outlet has pulled in throughout the last 9 months and especially this weekend. Find me more than one outside of Cleveland that says these guys were top 200 players. I'd love to read it.Dude, you have access to no one's draft board. Period. You may have heard other people who are paid to fill the airwaves give their opinions, but they're guessing too. The Browns were 30th against the run last year. Do you think they needed to address that? Do you think you know better than them about a player's value or where he might be taken? I realize you're a cynic and you were going to complain no matter what, but "c'mon man"!2 of the 3 quotes of mine you have up there don't need revisited. Benjamin and Hughes were bad picks because they were going to be there later. They're like taking Victor Cruz in the 5th round of your fantasy draft last year. Yea, he went nuts, but he also would have been available much later in your draft. The rest of your team could have been better had you taken other guys first and looked for your favorite gem late. You don't get points for creativity in the draft.'nxmehta said:Some of you could be right! Some of you could be wrong. We'll see in a couple months.
That said, hope Hughes is a beast vs the run. Keeping our starting DTs relatively fresh will be nothing but positive.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The price of the sack is just that high, I think it was a bad pick but there are reports that say they weren't the only team that liked him that early. If they wanted him that badly they had to take him there.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I was taken aback when I heard it, but given Lerner's trigger happy nature and that he stepped in and told the front office to get RG3 and I don't care how it makes sense.
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
I heard Shurmur talking about Weeden on Saturday and cringed when I heard Randy's name brought up:
I have to admit that it crossed my mind that Randy may have been pulling the strings there. I hope not.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
What exactly is this referring to?
NJDawgPound
Footballguy
From MAC_32:
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beer 30
Footballguy
WKNR was reporting this a while back. Lerner told the staff to get the QB position straightened out. The staff fell in love with Weeden and WA LA, we got us a gunslinger! I think it's known in this thread I'm a fan so I'm biased but I got no problem bringing him on board. I think he allows us to open up the offense with that cannon arm (still not sure wtf he is going to throw to but that's another thread) and I really think there were two things that significantly contributed to the pick:1. Colt's daddy. . .right or wrong I really think that rubbed the organization the wrong way. Shouldn't have but I think it did.2. Colt's inability to go downfield as the season progressed. I know, he had no time, he had no WR's etc, etc. Dude turtled at the end of the season, no other way to put it. The coaching staff laid this at Colt's feet earlier this year. Again right or wrong they called him out so it makes me think they had little to no confidence in him a the end of last season.
Tecumseh
Footballguy
Grossi said the same thing Friday night.
beer 30
Footballguy
Easy back on the accelerator there Super Dave. Because the guy is fast doesn't translate into fixing our WR woes. Plenty of guys that are fast that can't catch a cold in the NFL. Out of all our picks, that one is probably the one I like the least.
daveR
Footballguy
No question. There's a whole lot more to playing WR than running past people. On the other hand, you don't get "complete" WRs outside of round one, IMO. Round two guys end up being Robiske and MoMass. No, I'm satisfied with a speed guy later.
rizzler
Footballguy
False.
