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**** CLEVELAND BROWNS THREAD ****


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2 hours ago, Soulfly3 said:

Browns C Alex Mack is voiding the 3 years remaining on his contract and is set to become a free agent, per source. One more free agent OL.

 

Alex Mack had 3 years, $24M remaining on deal and could once again become NFL's highest paid C. Return to Cleveland still "very possible."

Man,  if Mack stays,  lot of people will have been wrong about that one.  Myself included.

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4 minutes ago, massraider said:

Man,  if Mack stays,  lot of people will have been wrong about that one.  Myself included.

I don't think many predicted Hue as the head coach right now.  Seems like that changed quite a few things in Berea (and maybe Farmer being shown the door helped too).

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I really hope they find a way to keep Mack.  Will it be an overpay??  Yes, but when you are trying to build a team it is not a bad thing to spend a good amount of veteran money on the Oline, especially the key spots like LT and Center.  I would much prefer a new rookie QB play with a upper tier vet center than some shlub.

Guess what, Mack knows this, and knows he can easily get more than that 3 years 24 million that he would have gotten. 

When you are rebuilding/building you can get away with a shlub or a dumb rookie at linebacker.  Worst thing that happens is you give up a TD.  In the case of a crud Olineman, you get your QB killed.

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clevelandarinos i just stopped in to say that i am sorry that your guys are quitting the team i like joe thomas a lot and do you think maybe he will move over and play center take that to the bank bromigos 

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9 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I really hope they find a way to keep Mack.  Will it be an overpay??  Yes, but when you are trying to build a team it is not a bad thing to spend a good amount of veteran money on the Oline, especially the key spots like LT and Center.  I would much prefer a new rookie QB play with a upper tier vet center than some shlub.

Guess what, Mack knows this, and knows he can easily get more than that 3 years 24 million that he would have gotten. 

When you are rebuilding/building you can get away with a shlub or a dumb rookie at linebacker.  Worst thing that happens is you give up a TD.  In the case of a crud Olineman, you get your QB killed.

The problem is I think Schwartz also needs to come back, and maybe moreso than Mack.  Do we really want that much money tied into 3 OL's?  I understand you want to protect your QB investment, but what teams in the NFL would have that much money allocated across the OL?

Personally, I think Mack is going to get some nice offers from around the league and he's going to take one of them.

Edited by Bobcat10
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35 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

The problem is I think Schwartz also needs to come back, and maybe moreso than Mack.  Do we really want that much money tied into 3 OL's?  I understand you want to protect your QB investment, but what teams in the NFL would have that much money allocated across the OL?

Personally, I think Mack is going to get some nice offers from around the league and he's going to take one of them.

I think the problem is valuable players getting to their 2nd contract and wanting to bolt, no matter what position they play.  I get it and if I were in their shoes I'd do it too, but this team will continue to suck until the decent players we draft want to stick around.  As of right now, we have 2 on the whole roster.

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8 minutes ago, MAC_32 said:

I think the problem is valuable players getting to their 2nd contract and wanting to bolt, no matter what position they play.  I get it and if I were in their shoes I'd do it too, but this team will continue to suck until the decent players we draft want to stick around.  As of right now, we have 2 on the whole roster.

Definitely a problem.  And we haven't drafted many decent/valuable players either.  Somebody has to start getting things right, and hopefully it is this regime.  We can go down a list of players that have left, and most of them aren't the caliber we're talking about with these OL's.  We all know guys like Sheard have value in this league, but the regime at the time did not want him and I think that was a mistake.  That's just one example.  

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8 minutes ago, Bobcat10 said:

Definitely a problem.  And we haven't drafted many decent/valuable players either.  Somebody has to start getting things right, and hopefully it is this regime.  We can go down a list of players that have left, and most of them aren't the caliber we're talking about with these OL's.  We all know guys like Sheard have value in this league, but the regime at the time did not want him and I think that was a mistake.  That's just one example.  

I wasn't too thrilled with swapping out Ward with Whitner.  I was indifferent on DQ to Dansby.  I got why DQ needed to go, but also didn't understand how Dansby would be much of an improvement.  I get that Rubin was over paid, but we had cap space to deal with it; he could have still filled a role.  Sheard and Skrine though?  Still salty about those.  They were sorta proven right about Cameron (although I believe they tried to retain him; just failed), but that's about it.

Each one by itself isn't a huge deal, but collectively?  This roster has too many holes and is too thin to make those mistakes.  These guys don't need to bring back all of Mack, Schwartz, Benjamin, and Gipson but 1-to-some of them?  Yes.

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20 hours ago, Bobcat10 said:

The problem is I think Schwartz also needs to come back, and maybe moreso than Mack.  Do we really want that much money tied into 3 OL's?  I understand you want to protect your QB investment, but what teams in the NFL would have that much money allocated across the OL?

Personally, I think Mack is going to get some nice offers from around the league and he's going to take one of them.

If I am going to pay one of them good money, I would choose Mack.

I would also be fine signing all of them and allocating a lot of money towards the O-line. 

I have never been a believer that you can't allocate more than a certain amount at a position.  If the player improves you more than anyone else you can sign, then sign him.  If that happens to be putting good money into three O-linemen then so be it.  However, I would be fine letting Schwartz walk if he is asking too much,

 

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4 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

If I am going to pay one of them good money, I would choose Mack.

I would also be fine signing all of them and allocating a lot of money towards the O-line. 

I have never been a believer that you can't allocate more than a certain amount at a position.  If the player improves you more than anyone else you can sign, then sign him.  If that happens to be putting good money into three O-linemen then so be it.  However, I would be fine letting Schwartz walk if he is asking too much,

 

I'm not saying I'd have a certain cap on any position group.  If they sign both, that's fine.  It's just a fact that if those three are on the Browns next year that's alot of money tied into three OL.  Can Schwartz slide over to the left side when Thomas is gone?  Mack will turn 31 during the season, Schwartz is 3-4 years younger.  It's an interesting discussion for sure.

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On 3/4/2016 at 10:12 AM, Bobcat10 said:

I'm not saying I'd have a certain cap on any position group.  If they sign both, that's fine.  It's just a fact that if those three are on the Browns next year that's alot of money tied into three OL.  Can Schwartz slide over to the left side when Thomas is gone?  Mack will turn 31 during the season, Schwartz is 3-4 years younger.  It's an interesting discussion for sure.

Mack at age 31 is not a problem for me at all.  He should easily be pro bowl material till 34.  Plus I LOVE having a top end veteran center in there if we expect to be taking a QB at pick 2.  Mack is a huge priority IMO and deserves an overpay from us. 

I would like to keep Schwartz but it sounds like he will cost too much.  He would have to be a pretty darn significant amount better than someone else we can pick up to warrant the kind of money he will probably get, and I am just not sure he is all that much better than other serviceable guys out there.  If he was a top end tackle then sure, I would  have no problem paying all three guys. 

Again, I am good putting the money into the player that helps us the most.  Position is irrelevant to me when it comes to that. 

Also, when it comes to free agents ,I would much rather keep the guys that are already on our team that we know can play.  It seems to NOT work out at a pretty high rate when teams pay a lot for free agents from another team. 

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18 minutes ago, Peak said:

So....tomorrow is the ***Official*** Cut Johnny Day?  :popcorn:

Not so fast.

Apparently, they may keep him on board for a while.  If, when, the NFL suspends him, the Browns can get some bonus money back.  Then cut him when the suspension is over.

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Seems crazy to me going QB at #2 now. Id bet on us trading back. -which Id hate..  This team is going nowhere for the next 2-3 years BEST CASE which is Joe Thomas's window of playing at a high level. No way can you now try to trade him for a 1st given the current Oline issues. 

 

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So what is the consensus outcome for a garbage team who just went 3-13, hired a new coach,  has a front office made up of inexperience while trying a new kind of approach, and just let 4 of their top 6 players walk away?

My outcome is the #1 pick next year along with some good compensatory picks, and a 2nd year QB rehabbing from some sort of terrible injury suffered this year.

How ma doin?

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What would a trade up from #15 to #2 cost?

Draft Trade Chart

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/draft/draft-trade-chart/

Would the LA 1.15, higher mid-second and a 2017 first do it? Or would it take BOTH 2016 seconds (plus the 2016 and 2017 firsts)?

Just not sure how next year's picks are traditionally, historically valued, according to the chart (do they try and figure high or low depending on likelihood of finish, split the difference with a mid-round projection, dock a round for the year you have to wait - which would make a 2017 first comparable in value to a 2016 second, a 2017 second worth a 2016 third, etc.). 

* Teams don't always rigidly adhere to the chart, but it generally seems to be at least a guide to negotiations. 

No idea if the Rams would move up, but DAL at #4 and BAL at #6 could also be possibilities if they want to snipe SF at #7, perhaps for a shot at Goff, or maybe even Wentz (I assumed CLE was a lock to take him, but perhaps not). The 1.15 and higher second is pretty close according to the chart for the BAL. Of course, BAL may have no interest in trading that far down if they see a blue chip player they can draft by just staying put (they haven't been in this position very often in recent years, during Flacco's tenure). Fisher and Snead have moved up and/or down in the first and/or second in each of the four drafts since they began with the Rams in 2012. Maybe they wait for a QB prospect like Lynch, engineer a smaller, surgical move up, or go in a completely different direction (WR like Treadwell?). A high profile, big move for a QB prospect could be appealing to the new LA fan base.    

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On 2/13/2016 at 2:24 PM, Bracie Smathers said:

Interesting. I hadn't heard this one before.

Josh Norris states that he believes that there is a good possibility that Colin Kaepernick could wind up with Hue Jackson in Cleveland.

Fast forward all the way to the 40-minute mark to hear that comment.

-----------------

https://soundcloud.com/huddle-up-dk/huddle-up-special-1-med-josh-norris

Huddle Up Special #1 med Josh Norris

 

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The Broncos sit as the most likely trade partner for the 49ers with Colin Kaepernick. Browns would be the other club worth watching.

 

Emmanuel Sanders told me any QB who can also run, can fit well in the #Broncos offensive system. Well, which QBs on the radar can do that?

There is a deadline for Kap -- His $11.9M base for '16 becomes guaranteed April 1. Also has $2M in per-game bonsuses, $400K workout bonus.

Also, if they trade Kaepernick, the Niners would have to absorb $7.4 million in dead money. Not ideal, but manageable.

Edited by Bracie Smathers
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8 hours ago, mr fancypants said:

My god there is a lot over reacting going on. What did you expect? I've got to believe that this was expected.

I also think that there is a plan in place When your 3-13 is anybody safe?

I did not expect them to lose every good player on our team who was a free agent.   No, this was not expected.  

I get the rebuilding, but its hard to rebuild when ALL the materials are made of goo.

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8 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

I did not expect them to lose every good player on our team who was a free agent.   No, this was not expected.  

I get the rebuilding, but its hard to rebuild when ALL the materials are made of goo.

As usual you like to look at things at your own delusional state. For instance

1. Mack was gone as soon as he declined his player option. Reports are that he took less money to sign with ATL.

2. Schwartz was actually offered a decent contract, but decided he was going to play that with other teams. Browns

   understood that and pulled the contract.

3. Gipson's play has deteriorated to the the point he's just an average safety in today's game. Are you going to overpay for averagerness?

4. Benji seriously 6Mil a year?

What the Browns are doing is a full rebuild the right way. Yes they will grab a QB at #2. But they will limit the punishment on him until they have a

appropriate supporting cast. They are also going young. I also think they are committed to Hue. It's going to be a tough 2-3 years up coming, but there

is a plan in place regardless of your mindset.

 

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30 minutes ago, mr fancypants said:

As usual you like to look at things at your own delusional state. For instance

1. Mack was gone as soon as he declined his player option. Reports are that he took less money to sign with ATL.

2. Schwartz was actually offered a decent contract, but decided he was going to play that with other teams. Browns

   understood that and pulled the contract.

3. Gipson's play has deteriorated to the the point he's just an average safety in today's game. Are you going to overpay for averagerness?

4. Benji seriously 6Mil a year?

What the Browns are doing is a full rebuild the right way. Yes they will grab a QB at #2. But they will limit the punishment on him until they have a

appropriate supporting cast. They are also going young. I also think they are committed to Hue. It's going to be a tough 2-3 years up coming, but there

is a plan in place regardless of your mindset.

 

You are calling me delusional yet I agree with (and have said) much of what you just said.  How many times do I need to say that players don't want to play here?

That said, no, I did not expect to lose EVERY worthwhile free agent.  If you want to interpret that as me saying our FO has screwed up and that I am delusional, so be it.  I didn't say that though. 

 

Edited by ghostguy123
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2 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

Granted,  I do not have any faith in this FO whatsoever, but I will be more than happy to wait longer than the first couple days of their first FA period before saying they have screwed up.

Unlike you I am interested to see what this FO can do.I'll buy into this whole analytical approach. What the hell nothing else has worked

I just like the idea where we don't overpay for mediocre players.

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Unlike me????  I am VERY interested to see what this FO can do.

However, being interested doesn't mean I have to be optimistic.  After all, this is a new approach from a bunch of guys who have no experience running a team.  A team people generally do not want to play for.

So nothing else has worked, so what, so maybe pick names out of a hat?  Why not, nothing else has worked.

Newsflash, things CAN get worse.  This organization has not hit rock bottom yet even though it has seemed like it each year for the past several years. 

Also probably not a positive thing that a few media guys have said they are hearing how our FO is pretty clueless with negotiating.  Not a good sign at all.  We have a bunch of orientees running the team.

Edited by ghostguy123
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An your approach is what? Let's get another Mike Holmgren or Ray Farmer Jr.

Newsflash to you I really don't think it can get any worse. The browns right know

are the bottom of the barrel. It's easy for you to continuously criticize. I'm trying to

look at things from an positive perspective for the team to move forward. But you

know what if you can give me another perspective on the situation, I'm all ears.

 

Edited by mr fancypants
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We don't know enough about how the new front office is making decisions.  If you read or saw the movie Money Ball, there was blowback with early decisions that were being made.  It appeared to be a hot mess from outsiders because they did not know what the front office was doing and the initial results on the field were not noticeably good.  It looked like careers were killed early in the process.

I have no idea if this will work out but I'm not going to pass early judgment.

It appears that WR Travis Benjamin got overpaid and that FS Tashon Gibson got overpaid but then again, maybe the market is correcting but if we are going on what the market had been paying, those guys got overpaid.

Alex Mack was one of the highest-paid centers in the league and he got what appears to be a $2 million raise.  He's one of the best centers in the league but he is older than 30.  We are in a long-term rebuild and have had one of the highest paid offensive lines in the league and the results have not been great so I can see why the team didn't resign him.  

I thought we would have overpaid for RT Mitchell Schwartz and the front office made him an offer that would have made him the two highest paid right tackles in the league but Mitchell didn't sign the contract.  He opted out for free agency.  He didn't get any offers and came back to the table with the Browns who pulled their offer because obviously no one was going to match it and it was too high.  Mitchell then got less money from KC and took it but he could have gotten the same from the Browns.  

Since the team lost, Benjamin, Gibson, and Mack, fans did the same over-reaction dance they do every year so losing Mitchell Schwartz sent them over the top.  I get it.  I didn't want to lose Schwartz and it does look like the team misread the market or that pulling the offer from Schwartz would cause him to have hurt feelings to the point he'd grab any offer rather than have the Browns match what he got from KC but Mitchell could have gotten the same contract from the Browns so you really do have to put some blame on him too.  It is not all on the Browns but since fans tend to freak out at this time of the year everyone is pointing fingers at the club.  

It looks bad and it is bad on the surface but I'm going to wait to see what happens in the draft and how the team looks late next year before I deem the new front office a failure.  

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They need two things:  A franchise QB, and a patient owner.  If they make the right call at QB, whichever move it is, and the owner gives the front office 3 years to show progress, everything changes.  Can't keep firing everyone every other year.  

 

Believe me, I know.  

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I'm not a huge Kaep fan, but if we don't have to give up #32, I'd gladly take him right now.  Could the trade possibly involve the #2 and #7 picks?  That's something nobody is really talking about.  #2 for #7, Kaep, and a 3rd perhaps?  Not sure to what extend this is true, but I heard yesterday his contract is voidable after 1 season.  Regardless, I'd love to go into next season with Kaep starting, McCown backup, and a QB taken at #2 or #32 (might have to move up to get Lynch).    

As far as losing the FA's go, Mr. Fancy made some great points above.  

Mack took less to leave, not a lot, but still less.  He rode the high horse out of town in his first interview, said all kinds of nice things about Cle and the org, and actually said it was a very tough decision to leave.  I'm sure it wasn't so tough, but best of luck to him.

Schwartz, or should I say his agent, decided to play hard ball.  We offered him a very fair contract, so fair it was actually an overpay based on what he was seeing once he started talking to other teams.  The agent miscalculated his players worth.  I have no issues with the Browns pulling the offer.  I wanted Schwartz back because of his age, but I like that Sashi basically told the world we made a great offer, you should have taken it.  They will get slammed nationally in the short term by people in the press who don't matter, but long term this will be helpful.

Gipson, this guy was overpaid and I'm really glad we didn't resign him.  Very very replaceable.  Then, unlike Mack, burns the bridge when he leaves town.  But hey, he went to Jacksonville because he wanted to WIN.  Now that's some funny #### right there.  

Benjamin, replaceable.  Have fun in the sun.  Good dude though from everything I've read or heard.  

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