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Cleveland Browns (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
Peak
Footballguy
I'm not a fan of Cousins. I don't think he's the FQB-type. He plays well, and can be a solid QB, maybe even top 10 with the right pieces around him. I just don't see him elevating the game of those around him. I actually see him as the opposite - Cousins needs to be surrounded with the right pieces in order to succeed. Cleveland has some good pieces, but I think this team needs that FQB who can help others elevate their game - be that leader of the team. That spot is lacking. Cousins plays well enough to move this team into a 5-6 win team with his experience, but it will take quality skill players coming in to help elevate it to a 9-10 win team. If you go after Cousins, then you're not picking a QB in this draft, where there are arguably 4-5 QBs that can help a Franchise. You pay Cousins for 5yrs, then what? You're not drafting a rookie QB early, so you'll land a Jackson or Falk in the 3rd or later. Neither will be a starter, so when Cousins is done, what next? Back to the drawing board. My fear is that Cousins is good enough for us to forget about the 1-32 past, but never really gets us where we need to the playoffs (see: Dalton, A). In 3 years, will the franchise be happy with a 7-9, 8-8 team? I would think they want to go for another QB, or at least begin grooming one. I don't see Dorsey picking a young QB on a 5 yr contract to sit behind Cousins for 5 years, then have to pay both, or whatever comes next. The Browns are not the Patriots or Green Bay, where backups are content to stay backups.
I'm more in the camp of a vet QB, ala Alex Smith, Eli, or Drew Brees - someone who knows they have a couple of years left, and that's it. They're not looking for a payday, but would be a willing mentor to the next QB. Smith would be a trade acquisition, but CLE has plenty of draft capital now to spend. There is no way they are going to bring in 12 new rookies in 2018 (not counting any comp draft picks). Some will be traded, so why not on a game manager to help this team learn how to win, and allow the rookie QB to grow and learn ala Rodgers in GB? It's often said, but never executed. I think the Browns are actually in a good place to pull this off right now and not make a rush into a rookie QB.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
Lol, so true in hindsight IIRC the NFL was looking for the next Great MOBILE QB (Black) that had the skills of Micheal Vick. The draft just wasn’t as good as some originally thought but ALL NFL drafts are over hyped!!
Tex
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Rookie scale has nothing to do with it nor does stigma of getting someone later.
It is rare to have TWO top-four picks. I'm not sure how many times it has happened but it is EXTREMELY RARE.
We should have two solid goals in the first round and I would argue three.
- Get the QB that you want.
- Get the impact player that you want.
- If possible, take advantage of having TWO top-four picks.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
You make some valid points but if they signed Cousins why would they need to draft another QB? If you’re going to gamble on him by signing him or any other QB then don’t blow that high 3rd pick on a QB, you continue to build your team with other positions like O or D line. “IF” they were to sign Cousins (I’m sure other teams will be trying to sign him as well) you do so with the intentions of him being your long term QB no?
Tex
Peak
Footballguy
I get the rarity of it, which is why I would rather use both picks vs trading out of one. Even if QB isn't a target, why not get the best offensive weapon and defensive weapon in the draft at 1 and 4? If you want a QB, you have your pick of the litter and can still get the top offensive or defensive weapon at 4. If CLE didn't have holes to fill, then I would understand trading out of the top 4. I think there is enough of a void at talent that you'd be better off staying at 1 and 4 and taking the top talent. Big boards right now are a bunch of assumptions and guesswork. They really won't settle in until April, once combine and personal workouts are done. Allen and Mayfield may look like the 3rd/4th best QBs right now, but who's to say they won't jump to 1st or 2nd? I have a feeling that no matter how the big boards shake out, there will be 2 worthy options in the top 4 that would benefit CLE. I don't see a need to trade out of it right now, unless Dorsey wants to stockpile picks for 2019.
Peak
Footballguy
Who's your backup? Kizer? Kessler? Dorsey will want to grab his own back up for this team. Kessler regressed badly in 2017. Kizer is most likely damaged goods. One of these two will not be on the team next season. I would assume that if Dorsey goes with Cousins, you still pick a QB this year as a backup (albeit not a top 5 QB, but a serviceable QB nonetheless). I also wouldn't be surprised if CLE drafts yet another QB in 2019.
If you sign Cousins, then yes the intent is him being your long-term QB. That doesn't preclude you from making sure you have a contingency plan in place should he fail. Cousins' record is 26-31 with Washington. Thanks to the franchise tags, his market value may be over-inflated to the point he may expect to be paid like a top QB while only performing a mid-QB level. Cousins is on par with a Stafford, Dalton. He can be servicable, but he's not a FQB, IMHO. Yet the only way you are going to get Cousins on your team this year is to pay him like a FQB. Granted CLE has stupid money to spend, is it the right business decision? And if you spend stupid money to land Cousins and he fails, now what? You'll need a cheap back up to help off-set the stupid money contract you just spent on a mid-tier QB.
Ultimately, I think WASH finds a way to keep him from hitting FA again. But if he does get loose, I expect there to be silly money thrown around for his services.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The Browns are going to take Mayfield at #4?
picks up phone
Hey, Indy - yeah, we want Mayfield. Let's deal.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Yeah, if you leave out the part about making sure the guy we want is available at #4.
Lets go back in time.
Note the date on this post 5-5-14
You wanted Johnny at #4 and wouldn't listen to anyone who said to take him later and pick a player at #4 like a Khalil Mack. Your logic was take him no matter what.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Incorrect - I believe if you want the QB then you just pick him and don't #### around.
It's how the Browns got burned with Mahomes. Myles Garrett was a different animal at #1, but everyone in the organization wanted Mahomes. But Sashi didn't move up to secure him and now he's out of a job. Because someone else knew they needed to get in front of the Browns to get him.
MAC_32
Footballguy
To keep it separate - there is absolutely no way you can ensure your guy will be there at #4 if you bypass him at #1.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Well someone was saying the same thing about Johnny Manziel and it is very likely that you can tell if a player will be available or not. It has and can happen.
So are you going to say you wanted Borltes at #4 in 2014?
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MAC_32
Footballguy
If you're that curious - go do your research. But do good research this time. I was extremely vocal about who I wanted from the 14 draft. It's also irrelevant to the current topic, so it's useless cluttering up the thread.
Mr. Brownstone
Footballguy
There is absolutely zero chance that this happens.Hmnnn. Wonder if he has any insights into Derrius Guice.
I'm not afraid of taking advantage of having two top-four picks in a deep QB draft.
I think the Jags would pay a lot to move up to the #1 pick to get a QB. I would move down for CB Jalen Ramsey if we could get a QB we like at pick #4.
If the QB we like is available at pick #4 then I'd move down for Ramsey and their 1st round pick.
Guice is being mocked late in the 1st round right about where the Jags would be selecting.
Guice 'might' even fall to the top of the 2nd round but if the Jags could part with Ramsey...
Hankmoody
Footballguy
You are obsessed with something that's not going to happen. You don't take a guy you're not prepared to be stuck with. If they take Rosen it's because they are rolling with him and if they like someone else they aren't taking Rosen and hoping someone else that does take Mayfield also happens to prefer Rosen and will pay for the difference. All it takes is one other team preferring Mayfield and they are stuck with a guy they don't want? They aren't going to risk that.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
For my buddy Hoffman if he ever returns, but of course anyone can comment on these remarks I find interesting from a 21 year old kid. Maybe rehearsed, maybe genuine, but somebody is thinking positively in Allen's camp.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Sorry, you wanted Teddy at #4 and I and others wanted him with the #26 pick.
You stood in opposition to anyone and everyone who said he would be there at #26 and you said it didn't matter because you would still take him at #4.
He went at the last pick of the first round. You stood your ground so kudos.
Just about everyone else who did not agree stood their ground and he was there at #26.
The Browns are going to take a QB with one of their top-two picks. If they don't think the guy they want will make it past the top pick then they take him there. If they think they can get him at #4 and can take advantage then they should do so. If history repeats itself then I know how you feel and disagree.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
With AAAAAALLLLLLLL this team needs “backup” QB should not be a top priority when they can’t even draft a starting QB. Cleveland has made the right choices IMHO in their selection of coaches regardless of what they do it certainly can’t get any worse than what has been done in the past. I do believe they’ll get this right. They are a young team with great talent and hopefully in a few year everyone will be fearing the Dawg Pound!
Tex
MAC_32
Footballguy
I was certainly angry about the whole Teddy situation, but it had a whole lot more to do with why groupthink had him pegged as a JAG. No one could/would explain it. They just said he wasn't. Probably because the NFL had leaked to their media sources that he wasn't going early, so they all tried to spin it but couldn't because there's really no reason he wasn't starting material.
That's beside the point though. The point is if you see franchise guy then you pick franchise guy. A QB you're consider at 4 is a franchise guy. So when you also have the #1 pick you just pick him then. You do not get cute and try to get franchise guy cheaper. Because if you get burned and you end up being right about that guy then you're probably going to get fired before you get another chance.
Peak
Footballguy
Any given Sunday, my friend. Ask Houston how much you need a backup for Watson, or Philly on what the right backup can do for Wentz, or even Minny who has nothing but a stable of backups right now that play on rotation. It would be typical Browns luck to spend stupid money on a QB like Cousins, only to watch him collapse with some knee/leg injury in a Pre-season game and end up having to play Kizer or Kessler again. I think Dorsey will grab some late round (3+) rookie to serve as a 3rd string and groom into a backup. It's the smart move, IMO.
BigTex
Don't mess with Texas
I hear you just considering the condition this team they prrrrrooooobably won’t be contender next year so I’m just going out on a limb and say it’s not a need at this point. You could be right but not every team is the same either. Sending a 3rd round pick on a backup QB is highly unlikely. Most NFL club grab an older experience backup via FA........much like the teams you just named........hhhhhmmmm
Tex
daveR
Footballguy
Don't be a troll. (Unless you can show me how many bad moves Dorsey has made for the Browns.)
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Former Skins GM:
McCloughan told Denver radio’s 104.3 The Fan last week he does not see ‘special’ in the Redskins quarterback, although he did say Cousins is ‘talented.’ McCloughan went on to describe Cousins as the type of quarterback who needs to be surrounded with talent, “because you don’t want him to be throwing 35, 40 times to win a game.”
More HERE
McCloughan told Denver radio’s 104.3 The Fan last week he does not see ‘special’ in the Redskins quarterback, although he did say Cousins is ‘talented.’ McCloughan went on to describe Cousins as the type of quarterback who needs to be surrounded with talent, “because you don’t want him to be throwing 35, 40 times to win a game.”
More HERE
MAC_32
Footballguy
Either Mayfield or Rosen. Depends on the neck-up stuff over the next few months. I want it to be Mayfield. But it's definitely not Allen. The first two are good quarterbacks. Allen is awful.
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slicedbred21
Footballguy
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The Man With No Name
Footballguy
FYI - Smith only has 1 year left on his contract
ghostguy123
Footballguy
They shoulda waited till after the draft to sign him. Now everyone knows we are taking Barkley at 1, and nobody will trade up. We coulda got him later plus extra picks. Silly Browns.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
You dont see Saquon as a 1st round talent?
Man is likely the best athlete in this entire draft... And a top 5 is almost a lock. Only Gurley impressed me more in the last 10yrs or so.
Peak
Footballguy
I'm for Darnold and letting him sit a year or so behind a Smith or Eli. He has the skills/talent/leadership, but just needs a few tweaks. Watching him against tOSU in the bowl game showed that he had some poise and can make some really good throws under pressure. I wouldn't be against Mayfield either, as he has that moxie/leadership that helps lift those around him. Both of these QBs have the ability to raise the level of play of those around him. I think that is something that has been missing from the CLE QB since the return in '99.
I'm not a fan of Rosen, mainly because of medical risks and attitude. The 2 concussions in one season, and shoulder injuries worry me. His attitude, while immature and could change, comes off as being entitled. I'm not sold on his intangibles yet.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Um, you got to clarify your position so do I.
I never said Teddy was a JAG and I don't think others were saying that either.
He wasn't worth the 4th pick because no one was taking him there.
I don't know why others didn't think so but I saw his thin frame and had other concerns but I mentioned his thin frame 'many-many-many' times and he got injured in a 'non-contact' drill just as DeSuan Watson did after I mentioned he had a 'thin-frame' similar to Teddy.
So I had a concern that turned out to be legitimate.
Per getting a guy cheaper. Simply wrong.
It is simple.
If the guy you prefer is not viewed by other teams and is not going to go #1 for 'whatever reason(s)'. It isn't cute to take advantage of the situation, it is really stupid to not take advantage.
You were angry about people failing to provide reasons for not wanting to blow the top pick on Teddy at #4 when it was obvious he wasn't going to be selected that high yet you still insist, even after being proven to be completely wrong with the exact same argument to this situation. I'll refer to the Einstein lunacy theory and leave it at that.
MAC_32
Footballguy
You cannot determine this with certainty ahead of time - only hind sight.
You can afford to get cute and get burned at non-QB positions.
You cannot afford to get cute and be wrong at QB.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You can't huh? How could so many been right about Teddy not being taken in the top-four?
You can't afford to overpay just because of fear.
On the plus side, you can be stoic and stick to obviously wrong takes even when proven wrong.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Step 1 - stop talking about Teddy. If you want to talk Teddy then find the appropriate thread, @ me, and I'll tell you how your skinny knees and near amputated leg take is bull.
Step 2 - start talking about this year's QB class, the relevant talking point.
---
Now that your mind is in the right place - what assurances do you have that the quarterback the Browns covet will be available at pick #4? and who is that quarterback?
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Now that I showed you are wrong in stating that no one can possibly show a QB will be taken lower than the first pick and you have your head in the right place I don't know at this point and neither do you so lets wait for things to shake out without saying we can't possibly take a QB later because that is shown to not be true.
MAC_32
Footballguy
No, you just hammered away at a point that isn't relevant to current reality. I tried to help you...
...but per usual, you didn't listen.
Right or wrong, my opinion on Teddy is unchanged from that day. It also means absolutely nothing in regards to the 2018 draft. Where you seem to think we can wait until pick #4 for the QB. But can't offer any assurances the QB the Browns covet will be there. Nor who it is. Which is the whole point behind not ####### around and just picking the guy #1.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Mac, yes, if they plan to take a certain QB at 4 then yes they should just draft him at 1. Or trade up from 4 to 2 if they really love a non QB also.
Regarding the Teddy argument, yes if they loved him they shoulda taken him with their top pick. They obviously didnt. You guys are arguing different points.
Regarding the Teddy argument, yes if they loved him they shoulda taken him with their top pick. They obviously didnt. You guys are arguing different points.
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
My problem with the Browns taking a QB at number 1 is that I do not see a QB worth the 1 spot. Time will probably prove me wrong but each of the top ranked QBs has obvious flaws such as medical issues, accuracy or attitude. Reaching for a QB is never a good idea.
I still think that the plan should be to take BPA and take a QB to groom in the second round.
I still think that the plan should be to take BPA and take a QB to groom in the second round.
daveR
Footballguy
Peak
Footballguy
Interesting take. When do you think the likes of Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen should fall in the draft? Which of these do you think would make it to the 2nd rnd? If none, who would you suggest is the QB to target in the 2nd rnd? Curious, as every media pundit this time of year is circulating the idea of these 4 being drafted in the first round (some saying Rudolph would join the first round group as well).
Peak
Footballguy
Many opinions here on the idea of getting a veteran QB. As much as I don't care for a lot of the things JLC writes, his piece on offseason QB movement is pretty well thought out.
Predicting where 10 QBs who could hit the market this offseason will be in 2018
Predicting where 10 QBs who could hit the market this offseason will be in 2018
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Optimum Scouting's Eric Galko wrote that Oklahoma QB Baker Mayfield "looks like a computer" in his assessment of reads.
Galko passes along that Mayfield looked "completely comfortable in the pocket with his progressions" during Thursday's practice. The analyst adds that the 6-foot, 216-pound Heisman winner has been crisp in his footwork and deadly accurate when throwing to the right. There have been no surprise skeletons in how he's handled practice work in Mobile. He's currently undecided as to whether he'll play in the Senior Bowl itself, but that matters far less than the way he's been handling his reps. In addition to his on-field success, he's also been a gravitational force in the locker room -- Mayfield has the personality and demeanor to win over teammates and it's shown even in this manufactured setting.
Man needs to be our #1 pick.
Galko passes along that Mayfield looked "completely comfortable in the pocket with his progressions" during Thursday's practice. The analyst adds that the 6-foot, 216-pound Heisman winner has been crisp in his footwork and deadly accurate when throwing to the right. There have been no surprise skeletons in how he's handled practice work in Mobile. He's currently undecided as to whether he'll play in the Senior Bowl itself, but that matters far less than the way he's been handling his reps. In addition to his on-field success, he's also been a gravitational force in the locker room -- Mayfield has the personality and demeanor to win over teammates and it's shown even in this manufactured setting.
Man needs to be our #1 pick.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Yes, but at least they are doing it over and over. Repetition seems to be the MO of this thread right now, likely because there isn't much to talk about this far out.
