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Cleveland Browns (8 Viewers)

I said it to my wife sometime during the Pittsburgh game - we're going to lose a game this year because of special teams.  And I wasn't referring to the kicking game, which obviously spiraled out of control.  Our coverage/punt units are terrible.  Then Chubb had that olay against the Jets.

 
i’m not delusional enough to talk about playoffs.  this team has zero depth. 

but we will win a few games, and watching Mayfield grow and learn will be fun.  

i’m legitimately excited after going back and watching his highlights from the Jets game.  

i’ve said all along 6 wins was about right for this team, i may bump that to 6-8 wins.

 
More miscommunication among coaches, or does Haley simply not give a flying rats ### about Hue's lies and backing them up in the media?   :oldunsure:

After the Game Hue said this, that the Browns didn't steal the Philly Special 2 point conversion, "it was in the playbook for years and just not called......" 
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-philly-special-eagles-video

Today: 
"Absolutely. I have no shame" - Todd Haley not afraid to say he stole the Philly special for the 2-point conversion

https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN/status/1045375980230103040
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Peak said:
More miscommunication among coaches, or does Haley simply not give a flying rats ### about Hue's lies and backing them up in the media?   :oldunsure:
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I think Hue just makes #### up then doesn't tell anyone.  I think Haley has his faults, but he'll also just tell it like it is.  Which unintentionally makes Hue looks bad because he constantly just makes #### up.

 
can’t both statements be true?

it may have been in the playbook, but the decision to actually use it was influenced by seeing the play work in the Super Bowl.  

:shrug:

 
Bracie Smathers said:
If you thought you could not get any more excited about Baker Mayfield... 

Check out this film breakdown. :popcorn:

======================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBthsykFvb0
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Sweet! I'm in. Baker starting in one league (FitzMagic out - Baker Mania in), Hyde and Browns D in another. I can't believe I'm gonna start the Browns D again this week - on the road. I think the whole enthusiasm spreads to all players, all Cleveland fans, and now practically everyone else. I'm rooting for the Browns and I'm a Lions fan - lol. 

 
Not even a quarter way through the season but it looks like our top-two rookies are doing well, err according to PFF rookie rankings.

Go to the link to see the full list.

2018 NFL rookie rankings through Week 3

2. DENZEL WARD, CB, CLEVELAND BROWNS

PFF Overall Grade: 81.9
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Also our defense is getting Ogbah back this week and he's chomping at the bit to get in on the sack action.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Emmanuel Ogbah says he's back this week for the Browns

... Ogbah missed the last two games with an ankle injury...

... he's had to sit and watch while teammates Myles Garrett and Larry Ogunjobi have combined for seven sacks. Garrett is tied for the league lead with four sacks and Ogunjobi is tied for sixth with three.

"I told them I'm coming for them," Ogbah said. "I'm coming for them."

-----------------------------------------------------------

He is coming back from an ankle injury so he may be on a pitch count but this defense can be really good.

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Brent Sobleski‏ @brentsobleski 2h2 hours ago

"[Baker] Mayfield is the big story, but watch that defense. It might be the third- or fourth-best in football. Maybe higher" -- an anonymous coach told B/R's @mikefreemanNFL.

 
Baker had two INTs but neither i really fault him for.  The first was one of Callaways handful of drops.  The second was trying to get the ball downfield with almost no time left giving his WR a chance to make a huge play or get a penalty.  They were still 20 yards from FG range and probably didnt have time for two more plays.  

Its too bad that 26 year old Lynch showed up today.

 
Been a while since we could blame the refs but that 4th down call was clearly on them, we had and the game won. Mayfield looks like he’s been in the league for 5 years. Not sure what happened to our defense today, didn’t look like the one we’ve seen the last 3 games.

 
Handful of bad calls by the refs on both sides of the game yesterday.  That bad reversal on the phantom first down makes no sense, as does the Carr fumble/non-fumble.  Either one of those would get the Browns a W yesterday.  With that said, this team had many chances to put this game away and they didn't do it.  It's a crappy way to lose, but it was still an exciting game to watch.  The ST coach needs to go...ST is horrible!  

Baker looked good -  a few mistakes, but those are learning moments.

WRs need to catch a ball.  There were easily 7-9 drops yesterday.  Ridiculous.  

Peppers shouldn't be returning kicks.  He just isn't the guy for the job.  Neither is Calloway.

Mitchell is a big lose in that secondary.  

Chubb looked really good.  Hyde did as well, but there is a big difference between the two.  Could almost see Hyde as the guy to pound the short yardage, while Chubb comes back in as the every down RB.

 
The bad Lynch call sort of negates the horribleness of the Carr in the grasp call.  But that reversal was an all timer.  People who made that decision should be looked at very closely.  I'm also going for it on 4th down in that situation, the defense looked worn down, but disagreeing with Hue is nothing new.  Lots to like about the game overall though.

 
I thought the officials were very fair in the Browns/Raiders game. They were equally bad both ways, including the softest roughing the passer call I've seen on Mayfield. I've had handshakes rougher than that.

The Browns are a super talented team, but they still have the league's worst coaching staff. With even decent coaching this team is 4-0 right now. 

Hyde is having a solid season, but man I'd like to see Chubb get more work, and Duke too, have to think Chubb will after topping 100 yards on 3 carries.

 
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Went back to take another look at Mayfield's first game.

The turnovers.

  • First INT Callaway slipped and then tipped the ball to the defender.  Baker was seen consoling 'Kid' Callaway on the sidelines.
  • First fumble was clearly on Baker.  He did not feel pressure from the side/take a  deep enough drop and lifted his elbow right into Hurst.
  • Second fumble was on Baker.  He was audibling on the road in a loud stadium and his center was going on a timed snap and Baker was not ready.
  • Second INT with 7 seconds left basically was a punt/hail Mary but it was a poor choice to throw deep IMHO.  We only needed 15 yards for a shot at a game winning FG with one timeout left.  They were leaving the middle of the field open.  No need to go deep to the sidelines into double coverage with a deep safety.  Low percentage play/throw.
We also attempted a deep throw to the endzone on a low percent throw earlier in the game, not sure if that was Haley or Baker.

I can't really find fault with 42 points which were the most scored by the Browns in 11 years and we got that in Baker's first start.  Haley's aggressive playcalling got us back in the game but he really needs to learn game management.  We were up 28 to 14 and he was throwing which lead to the first fumble and he should have put the handcuffs on Baker's audibles and told him to go with a quick count run play instead of leaving a rookie the freedom to audible to a pass play when he should have been bleeding the clock.  

But we did score 42 and that should have been MORE than enough with this defense.  The injury that knocked out Terrence Mitchell and forced us to go with T.J. Carrie killed us.  

 
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Bobcat10 said:
The bad Lynch call sort of negates the horribleness of the Carr in the grasp call.  But that reversal was an all timer.  People who made that decision should be looked at very closely.  I'm also going for it on 4th down in that situation, the defense looked worn down, but disagreeing with Hue is nothing new.  Lots to like about the game overall though.
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People keep referencing the Lynch play, but everyone on the D stopped at the whistle.  He would been tackled after a few more yards.  He was not scoring there.  

 
The sack on Carr with the in the grass was just so, so bad.  Even in slow motion the ball came out immediately.  

I do feel like we had the game taken from us.  We played better than they did.  

But, we also screwed up a lot and the D wasnt very good.

 
Bobcat10 said:
The bad Lynch call sort of negates the horribleness of the Carr in the grasp call.  But that reversal was an all timer.  People who made that decision should be looked at very closely.  I'm also going for it on 4th down in that situation, the defense looked worn down, but disagreeing with Hue is nothing new.  Lots to like about the game overall though.
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Completely agree.  I thought it was a given, if you are in 4th and inches, you push the pile with the QB sneak and keep moving forward.  There was no aggressiveness on Hue's part with the choice to punt.  You had many opportunities to win/close out the game, and this was the easiest call of all of them.  Baker under center, stay low and push right behind the center for the 1st down.  Ridiculous that Hue felt it wouldn't work and he needed to punt.   :no:

 
Peak said:
Completely agree.  I thought it was a given, if you are in 4th and inches, you push the pile with the QB sneak and keep moving forward.  There was no aggressiveness on Hue's part with the choice to punt.  You had many opportunities to win/close out the game, and this was the easiest call of all of them.  Baker under center, stay low and push right behind the center for the 1st down.  Ridiculous that Hue felt it wouldn't work and he needed to punt.   :no:
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I see people saying this, but how often do NFL coaches do something that risky when you're up 8 points? Belichick did it in a 2009 game against the Colts in similar circumstances and it backfired. I believe Mike Smith did it in a 2011 game and it backfired too. Special teams needs to get at least average play on the ensuing punt and not let the guy get to midfield. 

As iffy as Hue is, I don't think he lost us this game. 

 
Another takeaway from that game - The honeymoon phase for our 'vaunted' receiver group is done. Njoku and Callaway are both clearly talented, but there's a big dropoff after Landry in terms of reliability/production. I think I've seen enough of Peppers too and am thinking Dorsey looks for safety help to replace him in the offseason. 

 
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Cool  vid.

Fusion Dance Darren Fells and David Njoku

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NFL Films‏Verified account @NFLFilms FollowFollow @NFLFilms

Practice makes perfect! @DarrenFells and @David_Njoku80 have been practicing the Fusion Dance since training camp! #HardKnocks | @Browns

10:14 AM - 1 Oct 2018

 
franchise punter said:
I see people saying this, but how often do NFL coaches do something that risky when you're up 8 points? Belichick did it in a 2009 game against the Colts in similar circumstances and it backfired. I believe Mike Smith did it in a 2011 game and it backfired too. Special teams needs to get at least average play on the ensuing punt and not let the guy get to midfield. 

As iffy as Hue is, I don't think he lost us this game. 
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I don't think Hue lost us this game, but I think he is one symptom to a larger issue.  The team lost the battle of the turnovers, had to fight a couple of bad calls (which have reported ad nauseum today in the media), poor Special Teams play, as well as dropped passes.  There are many things you can point to and say, "Ya know what...you fix that area, and maybe they win yesterday."

In regards to going for it on 4th down, statistically, it has been on the rise since 2005.  Per the research from Chase Stuart, "From 1994–2004, teams went for it on these fourth-and-1 situations 28 percent of the time. From 2005–2014, that number ratcheted up, with teams going for it 35 percent of the time. And in 2015 and 2016, offenses stayed on the field for these fourth downs more than 40 percent."

There are conditions which coaches look at to determine if going for it on 4th and short, one of which is "the game needed to be competitive, defined as within 10 points, to ensure the scoreboard wasn’t the primary factor dictating those decisions".

The situation seen yesterday, falls exactly within that range.  To take it a step further, the Browns are tied for 6th in the NFL this year in 4th down Conversion attempts, and hitting on 50% of those attempts, with a solid 67% completion in road games this year. 

This situation was literally an inch (maybe two if you're in the NFL offices watching the replays).  A QB sneak would've easily gotten the first down.  And before I hear that QB sneaks never work, Yale did a study and found that the QB Sneak has an 83% conversion success rate since 1999.  It was an easy call.  Baker under center.  Give the center a heartbeat to push forward and then Baker follows and hits the ground right behind the center for a quick 4 inch pickup.  Given CLE's success rate on the road, as well as the high likelihood of successfully completing a QB sneak for short yardage on 4th down - why not try it?  It was a competitive game (within 10 pts), and if you convert you chances for winning the game go up to nearly 98-99%.  

The only reason not to go for it is due to a fear of criticism causing the HC to still punt in this situation.  Hue could've put this game to bed and took a step towards showing he's the right coach to lead this young team.  How better to show you have faith in your QB and young team, than to keep them on the field and say "I believe in you guys!  Now go get this first down!"  Instead, Hue basically told his team, "Yes I know it's only a couple of inches, but I don't see you guys getting it.  Guess we'll punt."  To me, that was a true leadership opportunity, and he missed his chance.  For a team who has not won more than 2 games in 3 seasons, there is no room to be conservative.  You have a team with a rookie QB who has put over 30pts on the board, on the road, on his first start - confidence is high and they are feeling a win streak on the horizon.  Why shoot that down?  Even if you didn't get it, you show your team that you believe in them and that you're all in this together.  It was a character defining moment for Hue, and he missed it.  

 
:thumbup:   @Peak

What about this for the "why not try it" part......has Baker ever run a QB sneak from under center?  I'm not excusing anyone for not getting him ramped up on what seems like an elementary play, but this has to be considered and I have no idea if it was touched on post game in any interviews.

That said, never running the play worked out great for the Cleveland Special during the Jets game.

Also, regarding Hue and his apparent lack of confidence in the offense, couldn't he have done what you say for the defense in that situation, which is supposed to be his strongest unit?

 
Mayfield with two fumbles and two batted down passes. 

i’ll be very interested to see if they can get that cleaned up asap.  

 
Bobcat10 said:
Also, regarding Hue and his apparent lack of confidence in the offense, couldn't he have done what you say for the defense in that situation, which is supposed to be his strongest unit?
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Definitely.  The only sticking point is that ST would take the field before the defense, and that particular unit was a sieve yesterday.  ST couldn't tackle anyone, which put the defense on their heels in their own territory.  I would've tried for the first down if only to keep ST off the field.   :X

 
I hear the argument for going for it on 4th down but I'll offer this up against it. We were up 8 and hadn't showed the ability to stop OAK at all the entire day. The defense was running up and down the field all day and it just felt to me like an "ah ####, we gotta go back out there again" moment when it came to the D. Less than 2 minutes to go, you know the D wasn't stopping a TD on a short field so you chose to punt it hoping against all hope that we actually bottle the returner up for a change. Didn't happen and they returned the kick to their 46 but I think as a coach on the sideline you gotta pin them back.

Hindsight is 20-20 but I didn't see a problem with punting it away at that point in the game. This site needs updated http://www.fireamosjones.com/

 
Peak said:
Definitely.  The only sticking point is that ST would take the field before the defense, and that particular unit was a sieve yesterday.  ST couldn't tackle anyone, which put the defense on their heels in their own territory.  I would've tried for the first down if only to keep ST off the field.   :X
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Yea they blew for sure yesterday, actually all season but that's for another discussion.

So play this out, what if we don't get the first down when we go for it on 4th? Play out what happens then and you cna't use the "well we would have gotten it" argument. I'm saying flat out, you went for it on 4th and inches and got stuffed, what happens then?

 
beer 30 said:
Yea they blew for sure yesterday, actually all season but that's for another discussion.

So play this out, what if we don't get the first down when we go for it on 4th? Play out what happens then and you cna't use the "well we would have gotten it" argument. I'm saying flat out, you went for it on 4th and inches and got stuffed, what happens then?
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Same outcome and (some of the same) people blast Hue for not pinning the Raiders deep.

 
Wild how much worse the defense got after the Mitchell injury. Part is because of him, he's played surprisingly well. But more because TJ Carrie is groin grabbingly awful. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
Same outcome and (some of the same) people blast Hue for not pinning the Raiders deep.
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Right because I think we all agree the D wasn't stopping the score at that point. So from Hue's perspective (and probably an odd's makers perspective as well) the smart play is to try and pin them deep. You had a 50/50 shot but that's better than setting the ball up on the Browns 20-30? yard line (can't remember where they were). And Hue has got to be looking in his rear view mirror here. If he goes for it and whiff's I'm not sure he's ont eh plane heading back to CLE.

 
MAC_32 said:
Wild how much worse the defense got after the Mitchell injury. Part is because of him, he's played surprisingly well. But more because TJ Carrie is groin grabbingly awful. 
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I wondered that myself. How did a top 10 defense revert back to the 32nd ranked defense in the league because of one player. Certainly that had an impact and looking at the stats, Mitchel is our leading tackler going into the game but I think, for whatever reason, Gregg Williams changed it up, went to zone coverage and quit attacking the passer. I know Mitchell got hurt early but I think that was the plan all along because they were giving up big chunks of yards before he snapped his arm.

 
franchise punter said:
I see people saying this, but how often do NFL coaches do something that risky when you're up 8 points? Belichick did it in a 2009 game against the Colts in similar circumstances and it backfired. I believe Mike Smith did it in a 2011 game and it backfired too. Special teams needs to get at least average play on the ensuing punt and not let the guy get to midfield. 

As iffy as Hue is, I don't think he lost us this game. 
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Backfired?  We punted and it backfired.  Lots of teama punt and it backfires.  I also would have been on board going for it up 8.

Even if you dont get it and they score you have more time yourself to try and score again.  

 
Our D sucking is exactly the reason I would go for it on 4TH.  Short field be damned.  We made it a short field playing prevent D anyway.  

I agree with whoever said Hue had a chance to make his mark and blew it.

 
beer 30 said:
Right because I think we all agree the D wasn't stopping the score at that point. So from Hue's perspective (and probably an odd's makers perspective as well) the safe play is to try and pin them deep. You had a 50/50 shot but that's better than setting the ball up on the Browns 20-30? yard line (can't remember where they were). And Hue has got to be looking in his rear view mirror here. If he goes for it and whiff's I'm not sure he's ont eh plane heading back to CLE.
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FYP  :whistle:

I get what you're saying, I just don't think it set the right tone.  You weren't going to pin them deep when punting from the 17yd line.  With the way both the DEF and ST were playing that last quarter, I would've rather had the OFF stay on the field.  They were hungry and pissed about the call being reversed.  Chip on their shoulders, plus a very short distance to cover, plus the stats on your side as far as completion percentage = Go for it!  If he went for it and wiffed, people will still complain that he went for it and didn't punt.  I'm of the mindset that you aren't going to please everyone all the time, so go for it.  YMMV.

Another point to consider.  The Cleveland Special was a gutsy call and it panned out to a win.  Who's to say another gutsy call wouldn't have done the same?  The team isn't good enough to overcome poor refs, so they might need to be a little more aggressive to help themselves.  :shrug:

But again - this is only one area that could've turned the game around.  There were many situations, and many mistakes CLE needs to address and clean up before their next game.

 
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Peak said:
FYP  :whistle:

I get what you're saying, I just don't think it set the right tone.  You weren't going to pin them deep when punting from the 17yd line.  With the way both the DEF and ST were playing that last quarter, I would've rather had the OFF stay on the field.  They were hungry and pissed about the call being reversed.  Chip on their shoulders, plus a very short distance to cover, plus the stats on your side as far as completion percentage = Go for it!  If he went for it and wiffed, people will still complain that he went for it and didn't punt.  I'm of the mindset that you aren't going to please everyone all the time, so go for it.  YMMV.

Another point to consider.  The Cleveland Special was a gutsy call and it panned out to a win.  Who's to say another gutsy call wouldn't have done the same?  The team isn't good enough to overcome poor refs, so they might need to be a little more aggressive to help themselves.  :shrug:

But again - this is only one area that could've turned the game around.  There were many situations, and many mistakes CLE needs to address and clean up before their next game.
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To the first bolded statement, what tone? There was a 1:26 left, the tone was already cast in stone by then. I think Hue stands a better chance of losing the team by going for it. Seriously, if I'm on that team and seeing how we manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory one week after another and then my coach, who has a rep as being a bonehead calls a bonehead play and serve up an easy score on a silver platter, man I don't know. I think that screws Hue with management and the team at the same time but that's my opinion. I can see it both ways and frankly don't think either of us is wrong. It's hard to fathom an OL that we spent a fair amount of coin on not being able to get 6" but we've all seen it happen. Maybe it's just scarred Browns fan in me coming out and wanting to turtle up with the "safe" play.

As to the second bold, total agree. It's easy to look back and say this was the pivotal point in the game but we should have never been in this position in the first place. Good teams don't give up 20 unanswered points. Good teams don't drop 8-9 well thrown darts that would have absolutely changed the outcome of the game. Good teams tackle on Special Teams AND ####### LINE UP IN LEGAL FORMATIONS ON KICKOFFS!!!!! :rant: :hot: :censored: but I digress...

:lmao: @ me spell bad

 
ghostguy123 said:
Backfired?  We punted and it backfired.  Lots of teama punt and it backfires.  I also would have been on board going for it up 8.

Even if you dont get it and they score you have more time yourself to try and score again.  
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If a decision backfires, the coach catches hell.  If a decision succeeds, the coach catches hell because "they got lucky, but it was the wrong decision".

 
beer 30 said:
I wondered that myself. How did a top 10 defense revert back to the 32nd ranked defense in the league because of one player. Certainly that had an impact and looking at the stats, Mitchel is our leading tackler going into the game but I think, for whatever reason, Gregg Williams changed it up, went to zone coverage and quit attacking the passer. I know Mitchell got hurt early but I think that was the plan all along because they were giving up big chunks of yards before he snapped his arm.
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0 points against and only 2 first downs when he got injured. 

 
MAC_32 said:
Y'all know how I feel about Hue but that 4th down is not the hill to die on. Even if his answer about it was laced in his trademark baffoonery. 
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The part where he said it didn't even enter his mind to go for it?  I'd love for someone to defend that statement.

Then you have these semi-related gems where Hue pats himself on the back for his own timely aggressiveness.

On if the Browns considered going for two following Chubb’s second TD:

“Why go for two then? We are up seven, right. I was aggressive at the right times early. I thought just making sure that we made the point after try. I had been touching lady luck all day in this game in going for two. I am very aggressive as you said, and that was going to be my mentality.”

On potentially going for two to make it a two-possession game, given a failed try would still result in a seven-point lead:

“I got you all the way. When it was all said and done, we were up eight and they had to go for two.”
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Only to shrivel up in the end.

This is why I'm trying not to listen to this guy anymore after games....I can't take it. 

 
daveR said:
If a decision backfires, the coach catches hell.  If a decision succeeds, the coach catches hell because "they got lucky, but it was the wrong decision".
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If anyone is willing to run the numbers, i will guarantee the odds of winning the game are greater if you go for it than if you punt in that situation.

 
Bobcat10 said:
The part where he said it didn't even enter his mind to go for it?  I'd love for someone to defend that statement.
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The statement is not meant to be taken literally.  It is hyperbole.

 
amnesiac said:
so much frustration in this thread.  

Mayfield looked good. he will only get better, especially the more time he gets in with his receivers.  

“Relax.”  

- Aaron Rogers
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Hard to relax when we are literally a couple inches per week from being 4-0.  Its incredibly frustrating

 
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