SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Freddie is not going to last with that attitude.
What did he do?Freddie is not going to last with that attitude.
?Freddie is not going to last with that attitude.
Yeah, what?What did he do?
I think the people that keep saying this have no idea what they're talking about. The OL was a problem last year. Then the team schemed around it and all of a sudden it wasn't a problem anymore. The OL is not a problem. It's not great; probably not even good. But it's fine. Baker has plenty of time to make plays. He's just not. The problems are in some order - QB, HC, and OC. Baker does not trust what he is seeing and instead of stepping up in the pocket like he did in similar situations late last year he keeps drifting right.Has the unrealistic optimism of the season been officially shut down yet? From what I am reading, the offensive line has been, well, offensive and needs to be fixed before the team can go anywhere.
I think I said at the beginning of the season this team just needs to get to the bye 3-3. But I can't think of any logical reason we can win next week. Then we go to 3-0 San Fran off their bye on MNF. This offense wasn't a mess week 1 because of lack of August reps. It was a mess because it's just that - a mess. And it's no different now than it was then.1-2 wasn’t unexpected after they dropped game one to Tennessee.
IF they can steal game four in Baltimore, they are very much still in it. a lot needs to go their way though.
Same play? Don't think it is but still needs to be a TD, would have been last year. https://twitter.com/Zip_30/status/1176090388597264385?
Yeah, what?
Here is the PC. HC Freddie Kitchens at the podium
He takes the blame for the play calling but just look at the WRs to the right of the play.
OBJ is in bracket coverage to the left, he is covered and both Donald and Fowler are closing down forcing him to the left and just look at those numbnutz who can't get any separation. Baker had no chance and Freddie took blame for poor execution from the two WRs and the TE who couldn't get any separation.
LOOK >>> OBJ bracketed and 3 guys on the other side near each other with no chance... Chubb far off to the left
1. On Baker - he is dancing too much in the pocket as was pointed out last night. Doesn't look comfortable, probably not getting the looks he's expecting, defense shifting at the snap to mess with him, etc. That said, he's year 2 and I expect a certain degree of that as teams scheme against him. I think he can overcome it but it needs to happen soon or we're in for a long year. Play calling isn't helping him, see my second link above, wtf Freddie?IMO, there were enough replays during the game last night, coupled with easily being able to see LAR consistently getting pressure bringing only their front 4, to take Baker out of the main cross hairs of what's really wrong with the offense. I'm not saying he's playing great football. He's been inaccurate with happy feet at times, doesn't look all that comfortable, etc.
Freddie's explanation of why he didn't challenge the PI makes no sense and that's on top of taking 2 time outs to the podium for a post game snack. WTF wants to go 3rd and 9 when you can be 2nd and 9 when the risk is simply a time out on what might be the last time you have the ball? Then run a draw on 4th and 9....almost as if he thought it really was 3rd and 9.
The last drive really put a major ding on Freddie. The play calling, formations and personnel package (I'm pretty sure that should not be plural), on the last 4 downs was beyond abysmal. Zero creativity with 2 time outs. No draws, but Chubb split out wide where he is a non-factor. He's absolutely right in that he needs to do a better job. That was trash.
Again, just my opinion after sleeping on this L.
It wasn't just the last drive. It's the whole game. There is zero cohesiveness. It's a disjointed mess. There is no sequencing, it's just ehhh this play sounds good. It's the exact opposite of what he did last year.Last drive - 100% agree. Every week Freddie is saying he needs to put the team in better positions and call better plays. Yea, we know, how's about you do it? That was almost criminal on the goal line with the game on the line. He should take the blame for it.
It went better than I thought it would, but we have depth in the back 7. We can afford some attrition back there; we just can't up front. The only spot I was real worried about was Burris instead of Randall and that turned out okay. Carrie and Mitchell showed last year they're capable, Murray's fine as long as you don't demand too much, and while he just missed his big play opp Mack Wilson built off his well earned July/August reputation. The only actual problem was Whitehead instead of Burnett.When it was announced our starting secondary was out against the Rams I was . That defense played it's ### off and should get credit for keeping that game close. They played great IMO.
Thanks for the links. I didn't realize last night that he had Jarvis there.Same play? Don't think it is but still needs to be a TD, would have been last year. https://twitter.com/Zip_30/status/1176090388597264385
Here's the other one I have a pretty big problem with, this is pretty close to throwing a flea flicker out of your own endzone, not quite as bad but close https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1175971891795959809
Good call. I'm too negative after losses....I was very pleased with the defense overall.4. When it was announced our starting secondary was out against the Rams I was . That defense played it's ### off and should get credit for keeping that game close. They played great IMO.
I'm worried how they're going to respond if the offense doesn't remove its head from its ### - like, now.Good call. I'm too negative after losses....I was very pleased with the defense overall.
It is the same play. The screenshot I linked shows what Baker sees as he's making his decision. The frozen shot it shows the DB directly in front of Jarvis but even in your clip take a look AT THE MOMENT Baker is delivering the ball. Jarvis has not separated from the DB, OBJ has his back turned and has the safety so he's out of the picture as is Chubb. The WR at the hash has zero separation. The TE looked like had split the seem, he had beaten the CB but the safety closed the gap and got over the top of the throw.Same play? Don't think it is but still needs to be a TD, would have been last year. https://twitter.com/Zip_30/status/1176090388597264385
Here's the other one I have a pretty big problem with, this is pretty close to throwing a flea flicker out of your own endzone, not quite as bad but close https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1175971891795959809
Thought about this too but good teams don't have let downs because one side of the ball isn't performing up to expectations. I look at all the Superbowl teams that won with defense and and offense that was predicated on "just don't lose the game". Not saying our D is that caliber but it's pretty good and moreover, it's a hill this team has to climb to become a winner. One side picking up the other until they get up to speed. How many times have you seen one side of the ball step up their game because the other side is carrying the load? I can see this team doing that.I'm worried how they're going to respond if the offense doesn't remove its head from its ### - like, now.
Warren SharpVerified account @SharpFootball 12h12 hours agoI'm worried how they're going to respond if the offense doesn't remove its head from its ### - like, now.
Tom WithersVerified account @twithersAPWhen it was announced our starting secondary was out against the Rams I was . That defense played it's ### off and should get credit for keeping that game close. They played great IMO.
The Browns hung with a very good Rams team. The Browns have equal talent to the Rams and that's half the battle. Play calling was the difference.Quite a chess match last night. Good football!
I guess they decided 11 formation gave them their best shot. I dunno. Too much pressure, IMO.
Pretty good result given the injuries / match-up.
I have been listening to Bill O'Brien say this for 6 years. Well, yesterday may have been the first time he really did a much better job with play calling. He actually called a flea flicker on 3rd and 1, and then on 2nd and longer than 7, in 17 chances, he called a pass play everytime. Deshaun Watson was 13 of 14 on those downs. O'Brien is known for running the ball on 2nd and long so that 3rd is more manageable. He broke that tendency yesterday.1. On Baker - he is dancing too much in the pocket as was pointed out last night. Doesn't look comfortable, probably not getting the looks he's expecting, defense shifting at the snap to mess with him, etc. That said, he's year 2 and I expect a certain degree of that as teams scheme against him. I think he can overcome it but it needs to happen soon or we're in for a long year. Play calling isn't helping him, see my second link above, wtf Freddie?
2. Freddie's PI call - don't really have a problem with it either way. Has much bigger issues IMO.
3. Last drive - 100% agree. Every week Freddie is saying he needs to put the team in better positions and call better plays. Yea, we know, how's about you do it? That was almost criminal on the goal line with the game on the line. He should take the blame for it.
4. When it was announced our starting secondary was out against the Rams I was . That defense played it's ### off and should get credit for keeping that game close. They played great IMO.
Step one - be a good team. We aren't.Thought about this too but good teams don't have let downs because one side of the ball isn't performing up to expectations. I look at all the Superbowl teams that won with defense and and offense that was predicated on "just don't lose the game". Not saying our D is that caliber but it's pretty good and moreover, it's a hill this team has to climb to become a winner. One side picking up the other until they get up to speed. How many times have you seen one side of the ball step up their game because the other side is carrying the load? I can see this team doing that.
That's what it looked like to me too. NFL game's are often lost the Tuesday before. And this one was lost on Tuesday. The Rams are built to stop 11 personnel. We played right into their hands.Quite a chess match last night. Good football!
I guess they decided 11 formation gave them their best shot. I dunno. Too much pressure, IMO.
Pretty good result given the injuries / match-up.
I guess they decided 11 formation gave them their best shot. I dunno.
The Rams are built to stop 11 personnel. We played right into their hands.
I do agree with Bracie, I think their hands were tied based on the personnel they had available. With Higgins and Njoku out, not many more viable WRs past Beckham/Landry. Baker has some familiarity with Ratley, so that made some sense. But no one else really. The new TEs produced a little, but they needed blocking TEs and not receiving TEs - which is all they have after Njoku.11 (personnel grouping with 1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WRs) is the NFL standard for 29 of 32 teams. We are 'kinda' stuck right now in that we don't have any viable NFL starting TEs to go with 12 (1 RB, 2 TEs, 2 WRs) as much as we did last year and with great success.
True.That's what it looked like to me too. NFL game's are often lost the Tuesday before. And this one was lost on Tuesday. The Rams are built to stop 11 personnel. We played right into their hands.
Guess we'll agree to disagree then. Freddie said the defense was ahead of the offense weeks ago and it's born out. When, not if, the offense catches up this team will dominate. This division is ours for the taking. I'm looking at next week as a real tell on how they are going to play out the year. I think they post a win and maybe a big one. I think the defense shuts Lamar down and the offense steps up and starts playing like a cohesive unit. Not trying to pick a fight MAC, I'm just more optimistic maybe? I don't know, I just think after all of the last three weeks we are probably about where everyone figured we would be. the difference between 1-2 and 2-1 isn't that huge in this league and I think this team still has a lot of upside.Step one - be a good team. We aren't.
Given the undisciplined nature of the first three games I have no confidence in the defense keeping it together if the losses keep piling up unless the offense shows a pulse, which there's no reason to believe will happen right now.
Easily could still be a 9-10 win team. Can't say that about every team in the league. I certainly don't want to peak in September as a football team and the schedule opens up in a month or so (which includes 5 winnable division games). I know this came up a week or two ago as well. I guess you'd have to define what the "unrealistic optimism" was from your perspective.Has the unrealistic optimism of the season been officially shut down yet? From what I am reading, the offensive line has been, well, offensive and needs to be fixed before the team can go anywhere.
By a long shot. I'll be thrilled to be wrong, but I think we get waxed this week. I think our personnel matches up poorly vs. the Ravens and they are much better coached.Guess we'll agree to disagree then. Freddie said the defense was ahead of the offense weeks ago and it's born out. When, not if, the offense catches up this team will dominate. This division is ours for the taking. I'm looking at next week as a real tell on how they are going to play out the year. I think they post a win and maybe a big one. I think the defense shuts Lamar down and the offense steps up and starts playing like a cohesive unit. Not trying to pick a fight MAC, I'm just more optimistic maybe? I don't know, I just think after all of the last three weeks we are probably about where everyone figured we would be. the difference between 1-2 and 2-1 isn't that huge in this league and I think this team still has a lot of upside.
The penalties bother the #### out of me, I want to scream every time they get dinged for offsides, illegal formation, movement, whatever. That bothers me a lot more than some of this other stuff because it's just stupid.
One could take that a few different ways without the context. But that's what I'd expect from a Ruiter tweet.Love this quote from Ratley. Take ownership even if it isn't on you.
"That’s the difference between players like Odell [who] just makes those plays when they need to be made. That’s the difference between having $18 million a year, $22 million a year and f***ing what I make. I [gotta] make those plays no matter what.” - #Browns WR Damion Ratley
https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN/status/1175999482573574149
I'm sure their replacements would be equally repugnant, but what I would give for that trifecta of suck that is the Browns beat to be loaded into a cannon and blasted into the ####### lake.One could take that a few different ways without the context. But that's what I'd expect from a Ruiter tweet.
Wilks came up with a plan to stifle the Rams with 'literally' guys pulled off the street starting when every single starter was out injured. The Ravens pushed in all of their chips and built around Lamar and that offense, they even drafted a QB who can't throw to go with RG III and the Ingram signing was a brilliant addition along with Hollywood but they are operating at a net loss on D.By a long shot. I'll be thrilled to be wrong, but I think we get waxed this week. I think our personnel matches up poorly vs. the Ravens and they are much better coached.
Go to the link for the full read.Through three games, the Cleveland Browns offense has looked overwhelmed, unprepared, simplistic and regressive...
...It starts with Freddie Kitchens and the design of the offense. Beyond some awful play calls including a 4th-and-9 draw that will go down in Browns playcalling infamy along side such abysmal callsas the Hue Jackson flea flicker inside his own five yard line and the Lawrence Vickers full back pass, the Browns personnel groups put them at a disadvantage.
Demetrius Harris had his best game with the Browns, but Pharaoh Brown is unplayable and they are counting on him far too often. Kitchens doesn't look like a coach who trust his players. He certainly didn't trust Mayfield down the stretch against the Los Angeles Rams.
Part of it he's fighting against his own DNA as a coach as is Todd Monken, being heavily influenced by Bruce Arians, who has always been happy to put his quarterback in harm's way for the sake of big plays down the field. He has to adapt to his quarterback and the talent on offense, because not only is Mayfield getting hit and playing poorly, the big plays aren't there either...
Credit where credit is due to Wilks for last night. This team is built to defend 11 personnel though. A stout line and a nickel base are the ingredients to beat many teams as currently constructed in this league. Not heavy set Baltimore though. My distaste of Jamie Collins is well documented, but even in an ideal world we're replacing him and Jabrill Peppers this week with Morgan Burnett and some combination of Jermaine Whitehead and Eric Murray. We sacrificed size for speed this offseason. This is one of those matchups in which it gets exploited, especially since Genard Avery went Houdini sometime between the end of last season and now. This is the sort of matchup I figured he'd be featured, but if he can't even get on the field in other matchups I can't imagine that changes at all this week.Wilks came up with a plan to stifle the Rams with 'literally' guys pulled off the street starting when every single starter was out injured. The Ravens pushed in all of their chips and built around Lamar and that offense, they even drafted a QB who can't throw to go with RG III and the Ingram signing was a brilliant addition along with Hollywood but they are operating at a net loss on D.
At this point our basis of comparison is not Baker week 17 in 2018. It's Baker weeks 1-3 in 2019. I had confidence in last year's version of Baker competing with this defense. Overcoming the deficiencies we have matching up with them on defense. I have zero confidence in this year's version. Right now anyway. And you're right - that link does a good job summarizing a lot of the things we're talking about that's wrong with this offense.Baker showed last year that he can burn them but he is part of the problem this year.
A guy with no head coaching experience at any level, was a coordinator for half a season, and is now doing both? What could go wrong?While the o-line has issues and Mayfield seems to be regressing a little already, Kitchens is just awful and I have to think the Browns are already regretting making that clown the head coach.
Freddie will be fine. Feel free to quote me.Freddie Kitchens, plain and simple.
I am echoing what most in the media have been reporting all day, social and print media.
-The 4th and 9 Draw play in the 4th
-4 passes on 1st and goal chance to tie the game late
-Most penalized team in the NFL.
Can he be fired after Week 3? Is there any precedence on the Browns to do that?
I continue to feel for the fan base in Cleveland.
Sincerely,
South Beach
I agree with you. There was always going to be a learning curve. He proved last year he could get this team rolling. I think they need to get back to that and move away from some of the Air Raid stuff. Everyone can see Baker doesn't look comfortable in the pocket as he's quick to abandon it. I expect Freddie to go back to Baker et al and talk to them about what works and what doesn't - which should lead the team back to their winning ways.daveR said:Freddie will be fine. Feel free to quote me.
If Dorsey had his way he'd have whacked Hue day one. He bet on him hanging himself quickly, which he did spectacularly.I agree with you. There was always going to be a learning curve. He proved last year he could get this team rolling. I think they need to get back to that and move away from some of the Air Raid stuff. Everyone can see Baker doesn't look comfortable in the pocket as he's quick to abandon it. I expect Freddie to go back to Baker et al and talk to them about what works and what doesn't - which should lead the team back to their winning ways.
Freddie just needs a little time. The Browns FO didn't run Huey off for over two seasons, why should they run Freddie off after just 3 games?
I can understand that view. I think Dorsey will be in his ear to make adjustments somewhere. I think there's an eye on this week's game because of the opponent and the situation. Winner can claim 1st place in the division. It's the team's opportunity to "right the ship" so to speak. I'm sure Dorsey is touting that message, and Freddie will be parroting it. This is the game I'd like to see them take that unconventional step like last year. Come out playing backyard football again and dare the other team to stop them.Yes, Freddie will get rope, but he's done nothing since week 1 to lead me to believe he's anywhere close to actually making adjustments that will work. Week 1 was a disjointed mess. Week 2 was a disjointed mess in disguise because we were playing against a minor league team. And week 3 was a disjointed mess. It'd be foolish to expect week 4 is anything less than another disjointed mess. Against this opponent? Curb stomping.
If you expected him to grow into a coach then you could not make this move. Because then he leaves to coach someone else after 2019.I hope Freddie will be fine but so far he has been very terrible. Very.
To be expected given the circumstances. Why not have just hired the guy to be the offensive coordinator is beyond me.
Because in football close games are typically decided by 4, 5, 6 plays. Sometimes 1 or 2.daveR said:If your life were at stake, how many of you guys would have bet on the Browns and all their injuries, going into Sunday night. They had a reasonable shot at winning that game -- played 'em even. That's a decent result, IMO. The sole advantage I saw going in was a prime time home game; a big emotional edge. (To be honest, I thought out DL might wreak havoc, but they didn't.)
Ever notice how the final score changes everyone's attitude? If we had won, everyone would be pointing out the things that were done well, but it's a loss so Freddie's tenure is called into question. 120+ plays & the comments center around < 10.
That, and forced marriages suck. It would have limited our choices at HC because of that even with the sexy look the Browns job had.If you expected him to grow into a coach then you could not make this move. Because then he leaves to coach someone else after 2019.
Wasn't there a scenario bandied about where Bruce Arians would be the 'bridge" couch for a couple of years with Freddie learning the ropes under and succeed him?If you expected him to grow into a coach then you could not make this move. Because then he leaves to coach someone else after 2019.