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***OFFICIAL 'The Walking Dead' TV Series Thread*** (7 Viewers)

Zow said:
Yes, but lesser on the scale. 
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It's interesting to me that you view being a faceless and impersonal button-pusher of death less evil on a scale.

I don't know that flapgreen is wrong in his proposed approach to count on remaining unnoticed. JMHO, seems like a ticking time bomb with yet another chance encounter being an eventuality. The stakes are obviously life or death for Alexandria, so I guess the question is whether you'd be willing to bet your survival, and that of your family and friends, on continued good fortune. If luck runs out, Maybe Karl is the next 17 year old statement-kill for this group; maybe everyone winds up dead or enslaved. Seems to me people who wager on peacefully hiding away evil aren't long for this particular world.

I just didn't have the same moral disappointment with the 'it's us or them' decision. For me, the TV show has done a sufficient job to give Rick's crew first hand knowledge that Negan's group is a soul-less band of self proclaimed murdering marauders - evil to the core. They also have a secondary 'best case' view of what will happen when your community falls under Negan's thumb. Against a foe like that, if I could press a button to blow them to smithereens, I would. Without that option, I'm taking out that threat with as few casualties as I can possibly risk, and attack at night when they are hopefully asleep and unarmed. Meeting up at high noon may show excellent moral character, but the result is likely no different from surrender. As a fan of the show, I'd probably not buy Dudley Doright winning the apocalypse one virtuous act at a time. 

 
No moral dilemma in my opinion.  The wolves were part of Negans network, right?  They attacked my town.

Dude's on motorcycles attacked my friends until they got blown up.

It's going to continue until I put this threat down.

Negan  and everyone aligned with him has to be put down.  Awake, asleep, no warning...I do not quibble.

 
modogg said:
hmm, that is a tough analogy to make. Rick's group were the first to draw blood by killing that group from Negan, and now have killed an entire outpost (or whatever that was) with not even attempting any diplomacy yet. Count me in for Team Negan. Anything he does at this point seems justified for the provocation from Rick's group. Killing a bunch of dudes when they sleep  :no:
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They have pretty much teamed up with the people at Hilltop with trading for survival purposes.   Negan is stealing from Hilltop, stealing food they all need for survival, aka, stealing food from Rick's group.  In this world, you die for that.

As far as killing them when they sleep, the point of that is WINNING.  What, you want them to wake them up to have a fair battle?  You sir, would not be alive at this point in the show. 

 
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BigJim® said:
Hmm, I can't speak to the comic book handling, but from a purely TV show angle I'm not clear why you would say they hadn't done much to them personally. The biker gang was without question going to shoot Sasha/Abraham in cold blood if not for a hail mary. They were told that everything they owned, up to an including any stash of napkins in the console was Neegan's property. They saw the gang was heavily armed, and were told the gang typically kills one person when introducing itself. Then they heard how Neegan's group introduced itself to Hilltop, killing some kid as a statement, then forcing the beheading of its leader. Rick may be foolhardy for picking this fight, but I'm not sure what sort of additional provocation you would expect in this world before deeming this group an immediate threat to Alexandria. How would you approach this impending threat if you were Rick?
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Bingo. Hardly "unprovoked murder".

 
ghostguy123 said:
They have pretty much teamed up with the people at Hilltop with trading for survival purposes.   Negan is stealing from Hilltop, stealing food they all need for survival, aka, stealing food from Rick's group.  In this world, you die for that.

As far as killing them when they sleep, the point of that is WINNING.  What, you want them to wake them up to have a fair battle?  You sir, would not be alive at this point in the show. 
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now THATS funny  :lmao:

 
BigJim® said:
It's interesting to me that you view being a faceless and impersonal button-pusher of death less evil on a scale.

I don't know that flapgreen is wrong in his proposed approach to count on remaining unnoticed. JMHO, seems like a ticking time bomb with yet another chance encounter being an eventuality. The stakes are obviously life or death for Alexandria, so I guess the question is whether you'd be willing to bet your survival, and that of your family and friends, on continued good fortune. If luck runs out, Maybe Karl is the next 17 year old statement-kill for this group; maybe everyone winds up dead or enslaved. Seems to me people who wager on peacefully hiding away evil aren't long for this particular world.

I just didn't have the same moral disappointment with the 'it's us or them' decision. For me, the TV show has done a sufficient job to give Rick's crew first hand knowledge that Negan's group is a soul-less band of self proclaimed murdering marauders - evil to the core. They also have a secondary 'best case' view of what will happen when your community falls under Negan's thumb. Against a foe like that, if I could press a button to blow them to smithereens, I would. Without that option, I'm taking out that threat with as few casualties as I can possibly risk, and attack at night when they are hopefully asleep and unarmed. Meeting up at high noon may show excellent moral character, but the result is likely no different from surrender. As a fan of the show, I'd probably not buy Dudley Doright winning the apocalypse one virtuous act at a time. 
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I'm not suggesting their actions weren't completely unjustified. 

 
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BigJim® said:
Hmm, I can't speak to the comic book handling, but from a purely TV show angle I'm not clear why you would say they hadn't done much to them personally. The biker gang was without question going to shoot Sasha/Abraham in cold blood if not for a hail mary. They were told that everything they owned, up to an including any stash of napkins in the console was Neegan's property. They saw the gang was heavily armed, and were told the gang typically kills one person when introducing itself. Then they heard how Neegan's group introduced itself to Hilltop, killing some kid as a statement, then forcing the beheading of its leader. Rick may be foolhardy for picking this fight, but I'm not sure what sort of additional provocation you would expect in this world before deeming this group an immediate threat to Alexandria. How would you approach this impending threat if you were Rick?
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:thumbup:

In this new world order I think it was the right move to make. Attack while you (seemingly) have the upper hand rather than waiting to be attacked, which you inevitably will be. 

 
tommyboy said:
The bigger question is who wouldn't kill an ISIS member in his sleep
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apparently Woz.

Zow said:
If somebody killed an Isis member in his sleep, I'd consider that somebody to be pretty evil. 
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but he's an idiot.  sorry, that wasn't being excellent to each other. 

hopefully Woz understands that killing a known terrorist (go ahead and argue that not all ISIS members are terrorists) while sleeping is perfectly legal. 

 
(HULK) said:
They agreed to murder people in their sleep on the word of people they've just met and some random biker gang they blew up.

Thats not what good people do.
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Yes, and again, zero intel.  They went from not knowing and being suspect of Hill Top, meeting their ### of a  leader Gregory and a stand off with pointy sticks to making a deal to be their mercenaries in a matter of hours.  How do they know the biker gang was even telling anything but lies?  How do they know the Hill Top scene and what Jesus is telling them isn't just a con?  We have the benefit of knowing who the survivors are from the comics, they don't.

The only thing dumber than thinking they shouldn't have a moral compass at this point is thinking that they should take anything they are told from new groups of strangers at face value.  Especially after the Governor, Terminus. and the Hospital.  There isn't anything that suggests any group of people other than their own and Alexandria is any better than the other.  If anything these groups are often wolves in sheep's clothing.

I think the writers probably just forced it along, but, if they were smart they'd wait until the Alexandria vs. Survivors war is over and then show that the Hill Top is really the worst group of them all.

 
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packersfan said:
This show has always posed the question of what morality is in this new world and what must you do to survive? As I posted earlier I love how the group has evolved and reached a point where you can legitimately question whether their actions are morally just. It says a lot about the world order that Morgan's view is considered weak and passive when it's one Season 1 & 2 Rick almost certainly would've embraced. Now he not only would understand why Shane sacrificed Otis he would probably ask him why it took Shane so long to come up with the idea. 
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Not so sure about the bolded part.  To my recollection (which isn't a strong point of mine), Rick hasn't taken part in sacrificing "good" people for the sake of his own life.

 
The biker gang could've been lying about things but Mr. Nibble On It was clearly going to kill Sasha and/or Abraham. They were clearly a threat and the group was told about it. That was more than enough info in my opinion. We saw what happened with The Governor when Rick waited too long to take action against a dangerous enemy. This time he chose to strike first. I think it was the right move to make.  

 
kentric said:
Not so sure about the bolded part.  To my recollection (which isn't a strong point of mine), Rick hasn't taken part in sacrificing "good" people for the sake of his own life.
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I was saying that mainly for effect to show how far Rick has gone in his evolution, but I do think if he was in Shane's spot he'd do the same now. That would've been incomprehensible to him not long ago but now his view has changed considerably. 

 
packersfan said:
The biker gang could've been lying about things but Mr. Nibble On It was clearly going to kill Sasha and/or Abraham. They were clearly a threat and the group was told about it. That was more than enough info in my opinion. We saw what happened with The Governor when Rick waited too long to take action against a dangerous enemy. This time he chose to strike first. I think it was the right move to make.  
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Right they were justified to take out the bikers.  How do you know the bikers were even telling them the truth?  Why not take what Jesus and Hill Top was saying and do some intel to see what the other group was up to and stake out Hill Top too for that matter?  Would you suddenly trust a random group of strangers after experiencing Terminus?

Oh yeah, I forgot, they had to because they were sick and tired of eating beat flavored cookies.

ETA: Don't get me wrong, I like that the show went there.  I think that's the best thing the show has going.  It's just if we're going to argue the morality of it I can't get on board with it being the right decision for the group.

 
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tonydead said:
Right they were justified to take out the bikers.  How do you know the bikers were even telling them the truth? 
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As I said, maybe they were lying. But they were absolutely going to kill one or two or maybe even all three of them. They had become a threat and they referenced their leader who in a completely unrelated event had been identified as a serious threat by other people who had no knowledge whatsoever of what had happened to Daryl, Abe and Sasha. I think there's enough to go on and make a plan of attack to prevent yourself from being attacked which as Rick points out is going to happen. It always does. 

 
ghostguy123 said:
They have pretty much teamed up with the people at Hilltop with trading for survival purposes.   Negan is stealing from Hilltop, stealing food they all need for survival, aka, stealing food from Rick's group.  In this world, you die for that.

As far as killing them when they sleep, the point of that is WINNING.  What, you want them to wake them up to have a fair battle?  You sir, would not be alive at this point in the show. 
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Some of the people around would have had Seal Team 6 knock on the door of OBL's compound and kindly ask him out to discuss how they could remedy the 9/11 misunderstanding.

 
packersfan said:
As I said, maybe they were lying. But they were absolutely going to kill one or two or maybe even all three of them. They had become a threat and they referenced their leader who in a completely unrelated event had been identified as a serious threat by other people who had no knowledge whatsoever of what had happened to Daryl, Abe and Sasha. I think there's enough to go on and make a plan of attack to prevent yourself from being attacked which as Rick points out is going to happen. It always does. 
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I edited my previous post above, fwiw.

I think we disagree on what the best plan would have been for the bold, from a moral stand point.  And possibly from a strategic stand point if Hill Top isn't being truthful.  I don't mind that it's the direction the show is going though. 

 
(HULK) said:
They agreed to murder people in their sleep on the word of people they've just met and some random biker gang they blew up.

Thats not what good people do.
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Maybe they should have asked Negan to sign in triplicate that he was involved in both those events.

 
snogger said:
Answered above.. semed to be a cell similar to the one he was held in.. :shrug:
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A cell for Negan?  You need someone important to the show to be housed there so either Negan or he puts in one of Rick or Carol.  Or, as someone said, himself.

 
tonydead said:
I edited my previous post above, fwiw.

I think we disagree on what the best plan would have been for the bold, from a moral stand point.  And possibly from a strategic stand point if Hill Top isn't being truthful.  I don't mind that it's the direction the show is going though. 
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I'm not sure what the best plan would've been in order to prevent anything negative from happening. I do think Rick was correct in assessing this situation as a threat and one they needed to vanquish while they appeared to hold the upper hand. 

 
tonydead said:
Yes, and again, zero intel.  They went from not knowing and being suspect of Hill Top, meeting their ### of a  leader Gregory and a stand off with pointy sticks to making a deal to be their mercenaries in a matter of hours.  How do they know the biker gang was even telling anything but lies?  How do they know the Hill Top scene and what Jesus is telling them isn't just a con?  We have the benefit of knowing who the survivors are from the comics, they don't.

The only thing dumber than thinking they shouldn't have a moral compass at this point is thinking that they should take anything they are told from new groups of strangers at face value.  Especially after the Governor, Terminus. and the Hospital.  There isn't anything that suggests any group of people other than their own and Alexandria is any better than the other.  If anything these groups are often wolves in sheep's clothing.

I think the writers probably just forced it along, but, if they were smart they'd wait until the Alexandria vs. Survivors war is over and then show that the Hill Top is really the worst group of them all.
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They were defending Hilltop with spears and a Hilltop member stabbed the leader, Gregory.

If it's a con, bravo!

 
packersfan said:
I was saying that mainly for effect to show how far Rick has gone in his evolution, but I do think if he was in Shane's spot he'd do the same now. That would've been incomprehensible to him not long ago but now his view has changed considerably. 
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I've seen nothing to indicate Rick would shoot a friend and leave them as zombie bait to save his own life. Are you watching a different show than me?

 
packersfan said:
I'm not sure what the best plan would've been in order to prevent anything negative from happening. I do think Rick was correct in assessing this situation as a threat and one they needed to vanquish while they appeared to hold the upper hand. 
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Maybe, but without intel and just barging in like that.  What if it was a set-up coordinated by the survivors and hill top working together to take out the best fighters in Rick's group?  Surely Negan would have known about his motorcycle gang by then.  If I'm Rick I make sure to get all the info Hill Top has, maybe even agree to the arrangement, but I don't set a time table and I don't take along Hill Top people when I make my move.

 
They asked for someone's head to be brought to them as punishment.  They had plenty of evidence that Negan's people were exactly what they thought they were.  There was no need to do some 6-week investigation first.  The people at Hilltop aren't fighters, they're farmers.

Just stop.

 
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cstu said:
They were defending Hilltop with spears and a Hilltop member stabbed the leader, Gregory.

If it's a con, bravo!
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The con relies on Rick's group thinking they don't have any guns.  Gregory is a ########.

I'm not saying that's what's happening, I'm just providing an example of why it might be stupid to take people at face value, as if we didn't already have enough examples.  They don't know these people.  How long was it before they trusted the Alexandrians for example?

 
tonydead said:
The con relies on Rick's group thinking they don't have any guns.  Gregory is a ########.

I'm not saying that's what's happening, I'm just providing an example of why it might be stupid to take people at face value, as if we didn't already have enough examples.  They don't know these people.  How long was it before they trusted the Alexandrians for example?
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You're embarrassing the human race with your nonsense.

 
cstu said:
I've seen nothing to indicate Rick would shoot a friend and leave them as zombie bait to save his own life. Are you watching a different show than me?
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Here's a scenario: Glenn and Maggie's baby has been born but will die without getting needed medical supplies. Rick and a person from Hilltop he just met that day run the errand but will die (and by extension so will the baby) as they are surrounded by walkers. Rick has the option to pull a Shane and save the baby's life. You don't think he'd do that now? I don't think he'd even hesitate. 

 
tonydead said:
Right they were justified to take out the bikers.  How do you know the bikers were even telling them the truth?  Why not take what Jesus and Hill Top was saying and do some intel to see what the other group was up to and stake out Hill Top too for that matter?  Would you suddenly trust a random group of strangers after experiencing Terminus?

Oh yeah, I forgot, they had to because they were sick and tired of eating beat flavored cookies.

ETA: Don't get me wrong, I like that the show went there.  I think that's the best thing the show has going.  It's just if we're going to argue the morality of it I can't get on board with it being the right decision for the group.
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just curious - what intel do you want them to "do" and how would they do it?

 
SacramentoBob said:
They asked for someone's head to be brought to them as punishment.  They had plenty of evidence that Negan's people were exactly what they thought they were.  There was no need to do some 6-week investigation first.  The people at Hilltop aren't fighters, they're farmers.

Just stop.
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Hilltop was giving Neegan's group 1/2 as payment for protection.

Now they're giving that to Rick's group, after Rick's group sleep murders Neegan's group.

So, whats the difference between Rick's group and Neegan's group here?  Why should I root for Rick and Co?  They're supposed to be good guys and Neegan's group bad guys?

I'm LMFAO at the justification going on in this thread.  Rick's group is out well over the line of goodness.  Its not justifiable.  They're killing people for doing what they are about to start doing.

 
LOL at absurd depiction of uncertainty from some of the posters today. So if I get this straight, (1) the bikers' own statements of who they were and what they intended were not to be believed, and (2) Rick's crew got second hand information about the situation at Hilltop rather than personally experiencing the attempted murder of Gregory and hearing first hand its reason? Ok, if that's where you are starting from I agree Rick & gang are 100% out of line. But I don't think those are the facts most viewers absorbed. How can you possibly accept the legit uncertainty you are suggesting when the guards at the facility released a hostage after being handed Gregory's head? You thought to yourself, "Wait a sec, these might actually be good dudes"?

 
BigJim® said:
LOL at absurd depiction of uncertainty from some of the posters today. So if I get this straight, (1) the bikers' own statements of who they were and what they intended were not to be believed, and (2) Rick's crew got second hand information about the situation at Hilltop rather than personally experiencing the attempted murder of Gregory and hearing first hand its reason? Ok, if that's where you are starting from I agree Rick & gang are 100% out of line. But I don't think those are the facts most viewers absorbed. How can you possibly accept the legit uncertainty you are suggesting when the guards at the facility released a hostage after being handed Gregory's head? You thought to yourself, "Wait a sec, these might actually be good dudes"?
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No, I thought what Rick and Co are doing is nearly identical to the group they're murdering.  Alexandria is the new protection racket on the block.

This is basically now a gang war.  But we're supposed to think one gang is better than the other.  They're not though, not in any way that matters.

Also, what idiot agrees to kill off an entire group without knowing diddly about their numbers and abilities?  So dumb.  Spend a week gathering intel at least.

 
(HULK) said:
Hilltop was giving Neegan's group 1/2 as payment for protection.

Now they're giving that to Rick's group, after Rick's group sleep murders Neegan's group.

So, whats the difference between Rick's group and Neegan's group here?  Why should I root for Rick and Co?  They're supposed to be good guys and Neegan's group bad guys?

I'm LMFAO at the justification going on in this thread.  Rick's group is out well over the line of goodness.  Its not justifiable.  They're killing people for doing what they are about to start doing.
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Rick's group is not providing protection - essentially the trade is bullets (that they used in the attack) for food. The goal of killing Negan is to free Hilltop from the extortion so they can engage in trade with them.

 
Everything Rick said in the church was spot on. They could sit back and wait but at some point Negan's group would attack just like the Governor did and the Wolves did and even the Termites when they were in Gabe's church. Could they win that battle? Definitely possible but not without guaranteed casualties and as Rick said who knows how strong they would even be with depleted food? Question the plan if you want since it obviously didn't end up completely working but everything he said in the church was 100% on the mark. 

 
BigJim® said:
LOL at absurd depiction of uncertainty from some of the posters today. So if I get this straight, (1) the bikers' own statements of who they were and what they intended were not to be believed, and (2) Rick's crew got second hand information about the situation at Hilltop rather than personally experiencing the attempted murder of Gregory and hearing first hand its reason? Ok, if that's where you are starting from I agree Rick & gang are 100% out of line. But I don't think those are the facts most viewers absorbed. How can you possibly accept the legit uncertainty you are suggesting when the guards at the facility released a hostage after being handed Gregory's head? You thought to yourself, "Wait a sec, these might actually be good dudes"?
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:lol:

Forgot about that - there's your smoking gun, folks.

 
(HULK) said:
They agreed to murder people in their sleep on the word of people they've just met and some random biker gang they blew up.

Thats not what good people do.
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But before the attack, they had confirmation of the kill/beheading order. Both from the guy who stabbed the Hilltop head to save his brother, and from the Negan sentries who accepted the head as payment.

In any event, "good" and "justified" are different things altogether.

 
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(HULK) said:
Also, what idiot agrees to kill off an entire group without knowing diddly about their numbers and abilities?  So dumb.  Spend a week gathering intel at least.
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He did gather intel. The mistake Rick made was thinking the compound was the only place Negan was at. But it's highly unlikely anyone at the Hilltop knew anything else. Rick had all the intel anyone could have provided. 

 
packersfan said:
He did gather intel. The mistake Rick made was thinking the compound was the only place Negan was at. But it's highly unlikely anyone at the Hilltop knew anything else. Rick had all the intel anyone could have provided. 
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Really?  So, placing a scout or two out to watch the compound for a week wouldn't tell him anything?  BS.

 
cstu said:
Rick's group is not providing protection - essentially the trade is bullets (that they used in the attack) for food. The goal of killing Negan is to free Hilltop from the extortion so they can engage in trade with them.
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You might want to rewatch.  They literally have the same deal.

Its now a gang war between nicer gang and meaner gang.

I don't have a problem with the decision to move forward, it seemed necessary.  But they're not good guys anymore.  Not on this path.

 
packersfan said:
Here's a scenario: Glenn and Maggie's baby has been born but will die without getting needed medical supplies. Rick and a person from Hilltop he just met that day run the errand but will die (and by extension so will the baby) as they are surrounded by walkers. Rick has the option to pull a Shane and save the baby's life. You don't think he'd do that now? I don't think he'd even hesitate. 
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From what I saw a couple of weeks ago this would not concern Rick at all.

 
(HULK) said:
Really?  So, placing a scout or two out to watch the compound for a week wouldn't tell him anything?  BS.
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They had agreed to save the Hilltop resident being held hostage.  The head needed to be delivered to make that happen.  There wasn't time to be waiting a week to scout the situation.

 
(HULK) said:
Really?  So, placing a scout or two out to watch the compound for a week wouldn't tell him anything?  BS.
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It could but also the longer you wait to strike the greater the possibility your advantage is weakened. Your scout could be found, someone at the Hilltop could leak word that there's a new badass in town with blood all over his face, anything. Striking immediately was Rick's best shot if taking them out was going to be the plan. Negan had no idea who these people were or that they would be coming.  

 
cstu said:
From what I saw a couple of weeks ago this would not concern Rick at all.
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OK I can't rule out him trying to slash his way through an army of walkers again. But I also think he wouldn't hesitate to off a stranger to save someone he cared about the way Shane did. I think he's willing to cross that line now. 

 
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