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Right. So the question is, are the Bulls other than Rose based on actual games played equal to or worse than the Hornets other than Paul based on actual games played? If you say yes, I disagree. If you say no, how can you justify voting Rose over Paul?

For what it's worth, the next seven Hornets after Paul have an aggregate 20.8 Win Shares. The next seven Bulls after Rose have an aggregate 26.3 Win Shares. Win Shares obviously account for injuries, since you don't contribute to wins when you're hurt. I assume I don't even have to tell you how Rose and Paul compare w/r/t Win Shares.

I'd say the difference is nearly inconsequential, so we disagree. The Bulls have more wins, they have a better winning percentage against top 10 teams. Since there isn't a huge discrepancy between their numbers I have to go with Rose at this point.

You think a difference of 5.5 win shares, around 25%, is inconsequential?

Are we sure JMon didn't steal Groovus' login and password?

I'm not a big believer in win shares to start with, I dont' see a huge difference in the quality of the teammates when I watch them play, so relative to the difference in record and the difference in their performance against top teams, it's inconsequential to me.
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Rose voters, what would LeBron have to do to win the MVP in your minds?

Statistically, this isn't close. LeBron is pretty much better across the board. His team has the better record and since that awful start (9-8) they've been dominating.

Comparison of this years stats

LeBron is far better in PER, EFG%, TS%, TRB%, ORtg, DRtg, OWS, DWS and WS/48.

I wonder what the vote would be like, hypothetically, if Lebron had never won an MVP and didn't have The Decision? 95% for Lebron with the other 5% to uber Bull/Laker/whatever homers?

This is absolutely ridiculous, Lebron should be winning this in a landslide but people don't like him and are bored with him winning MVPs.

:goodposting: Rose winning would be the equivalent of Barkley and Malone stealing Jordan's awards in '93 and '97, respectively, and I'm not sure Rose's candidacy is even as strong as theirs was (Howard would definitely be ahead of him on my ballot this year, Paul would be right there).
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Right. So the question is, are the Bulls other than Rose based on actual games played equal to or worse than the Hornets other than Paul based on actual games played? If you say yes, I disagree. If you say no, how can you justify voting Rose over Paul?

For what it's worth, the next seven Hornets after Paul have an aggregate 20.8 Win Shares. The next seven Bulls after Rose have an aggregate 26.3 Win Shares. Win Shares obviously account for injuries, since you don't contribute to wins when you're hurt. I assume I don't even have to tell you how Rose and Paul compare w/r/t Win Shares.

I'd say the difference is nearly inconsequential, so we disagree. The Bulls have more wins, they have a better winning percentage against top 10 teams. Since there isn't a huge discrepancy between their numbers I have to go with Rose at this point.

You think a difference of 5.5 win shares, around 25%, is inconsequential?

Are we sure JMon didn't steal Groovus' login and password?

I'm not a big believer in win shares to start with, I dont' see a huge difference in the quality of the teammates when I watch them play, so relative to the difference in record and the difference in their performance against top teams, it's inconsequential to me.
I guess I can't really argue with that. I think most would disagree, but your opinion is your opinion. At least you didn't argue that Deng and Ariza are comparable.
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Boozer and West are very comparable, so are Deng and Ariza, eff the stats.

I'm not saying Rose is better than Paul, but this year Rose is more deserving of MVP.

You really want to go with this?

Tell you what: if you want, you can delete your post, and then I'll delete my post quoting it, and then it will be like you never said it. An offer of amnesty.

I'd rather have Deng but they are very comparable. Both are no better than 4th options on championship teams who play good D. Using that as an example of Paul doing more with less is way off. Watch Dengs numbers when Noah comes back.
Ariza is a poor offensive player who thinks he is an all star, making him a huge liability on offense because hes taking 5 shots more a game than he should. Ariza should be the teams 5th option offensively when hes on the court, but the defensive stopper, hes really more of a 7th/8th man sort of talent but should start (and play 25 minutes a game or so tops) because of his defense. Deng on the other hand, is more of a 3rd option on offense and the defensive stopper. Maybe I'm a little biased on Deng (I landed him in the 2nd round in our build a franchise) and might over value him, and also biased on Ariza, I always though he was way overrated in LA and Hou, but I don't think they are even close to similar talents. There are probably 100 guys between Ariza and Deng in terms of talent in the NBA.

To put it more simply, Deng is the 3rd/4th best player on a championship team while Ariza is probably more like 7th/8th.

Ariza was huge for the Lakers as their 4th/5th best player, are we saying Kobe is that much better at making his teammates better than Chris Paul? You have called Paul the greatest stat PG ever, yet he can't make Ariza, who's proved he's a legit 4th option, into a strong rotation player?

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32-8 in their last 40 games is pretty good. They got off to a rough start but have been dominating since with only the Spurs being better in that time.

But Rose and the Bulls are close to keeping pace. The Heat losing so much against the top teams is a factor too.
Mavs are 37 - 7 ignoring the Dirk injury (3-10). Scary to think how good their record would be without it.
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32-8 in their last 40 games is pretty good. They got off to a rough start but have been dominating since with only the Spurs being better in that time.

But Rose and the Bulls are close to keeping pace. The Heat losing so much against the top teams is a factor too.
Mavs are 37 - 7 ignoring the Dirk injury (3-10). Scary to think how good their record would be without it.
One can certainly make a case for Dirk. Rose seems to be the sexier pick.
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Boozer and West are very comparable, so are Deng and Ariza, eff the stats.

I'm not saying Rose is better than Paul, but this year Rose is more deserving of MVP.

You really want to go with this?

Tell you what: if you want, you can delete your post, and then I'll delete my post quoting it, and then it will be like you never said it. An offer of amnesty.

I'd rather have Deng but they are very comparable. Both are no better than 4th options on championship teams who play good D. Using that as an example of Paul doing more with less is way off. Watch Dengs numbers when Noah comes back.
Ariza is a poor offensive player who thinks he is an all star, making him a huge liability on offense because hes taking 5 shots more a game than he should. Ariza should be the teams 5th option offensively when hes on the court, but the defensive stopper, hes really more of a 7th/8th man sort of talent but should start (and play 25 minutes a game or so tops) because of his defense. Deng on the other hand, is more of a 3rd option on offense and the defensive stopper. Maybe I'm a little biased on Deng (I landed him in the 2nd round in our build a franchise) and might over value him, and also biased on Ariza, I always though he was way overrated in LA and Hou, but I don't think they are even close to similar talents. There are probably 100 guys between Ariza and Deng in terms of talent in the NBA.

To put it more simply, Deng is the 3rd/4th best player on a championship team while Ariza is probably more like 7th/8th.

Ariza was huge for the Lakers as their 4th/5th best player, are we saying Kobe is that much better at making his teammates better than Chris Paul? You have called Paul the greatest stat PG ever, yet he can't make Ariza, who's proved he's a legit 4th option, into a strong rotation player?

1. I don't remember ever calling Paul the greatest stat PG ever. I don't recall ever even looking at the stats of Magic Johnson or Isiah Thomas or Bob Cousy, so I seriously doubt I would have said that. Don't put words in people's mouths. It's annoying and kind of childish.

2. You said two different players were "very comparable" Knowing that you hate advanced stats, I gave you the basic percentage-based shooting stats and per game rebounding and assist numbers of the two players you called "very comparable" both on the season and for their careers- stats that can be very easily compared head to head. Your response to those very clear and straightforward stats has something to do with what Ariza did in one season in LA a couple years ago, which you subjectively call "huge" without explaining yourself further, and then trying to compare Bryant to Paul for some reason (how that's relevant to comparing the "very comparable" players is beyond me) and then presumably translating that Paul/Bryant theory to a comparison of Ariza and Deng.

Please, for the love of God, tell me that you understand why that is a ridiculous way to compare players when you can just look at their actual numbers. I need to believe that you're not that dense. I really don't think you are, I think you're probably a pretty bright guy. Please confirm my suspicions.

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It is absolutely the same as when Jordan should have won a couple more and didnt' because people had fatigue. But so what, that's part of it. Steve Nash was better after his two MVP seasons and lost the award to Dirk. Acting like there is a remotely concrete list of what is and isn't a qualification is silly. I'm sick of Lebron jAMES. I think he's the punchbowl-turd of the NBA and hope that a championship eludes him only slightly less then I hope one eludes that gravy-trainer Chris Bosh. I don't care that he is the best player in the league. That doesn't matter to me. Shaq has exactly ONE MVP award, which is hilarious. Really? the 7'2, 320# guy in the middle dropping 30 and 15 whenever he feels like it isn't the best player in the league?

The Bulls have been an interesting team in the last couple of years but didn't really scare anyone. This year, I doubt anyone would be shocked if they won the whole thing. That is why Rose is my leading MVP guy. That is why Durant isn't in the conversation, because OKC hasn't taken that step.

Rose > Lebron this year. Deal with it.

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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is not a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
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Funke

Sorry I honestly thought I was responding to Kev, he's the one who made the comment about Paul. And I was just bringing up Kobe because apparently he doesn't make his teammates better.

I've already said I'd take Deng over Ariza, and that I don't pay attention to the advanced stats. Its not that I don't enjoy reading them and analyzing them, it's that people look at these stats and take it as the gospel. Stats tell part of the story. To me, while watching them both play, they are very comparable. Ariza is having a down year and Deng is having a career year. Deng has a bigger role on offense with all the injuries the Bulls have had. Ultimately they will have similar roles and neither player can be a 3rd best player on a title team.

When all the experts are calling Rose either one or two in the MVP race and all the stats guys are saying he's not in the top 4 of NBA PGs there is a problem. What he did last night against that DD should have proven everything.

Damn typing on a phone with auto correct!

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Funke Sorry I honestly thought I was responding to Kev, he's the one who made the comment about Paul. And I was just bringing up Kobe because apparently he doesn't make his teammates better. I've already said I'd take Deng over Ariza, and that I don't pay attention to the advanced stats. Its not that I don't enjoy reading them and analyzing them, it's that people look at these stats and take it as the gospel. Stats tell part of the story. To me, while watching them both play, they are very comparable. Ariza is having a down year and Deng is having a career year. Deng has a bigger role on offense with all the injuries the Bulls have had. Ultimately they will have similar roles and neither player can be a 3rd best player on a title team. When all the experts are calling Rose either one or two in the MVP race and all the stats guys are saying he's not in the top 4 of NBA PGs there is a problem. What he did last night against that DD should have proven everything.Damn typing on a phone with auto correct!

I think what you are referring to, is me calling Paul the most well rounded PG ever, and I still think thats true. Not the best ever, but the most well rounded. I think we are watching the best basketball in the history of the NBA right now, and talent has never been at a higher level.
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Funke Sorry I honestly thought it was responding to Kev, he's the one who made the comment about Paul. And I was just bringing up Kobe because apparently he doesn't make his teammates better. I've already said I'd take Deng over Ariza, and that I don't pay attention to the advanced stats. Its not that I don't enjoy reading them and analyzing them, it's that people look at these stats and take it as the gospel. Stats tell part of the story. To me, while watching them both play, they are very comparable. Ariza is having a down year and Deng is having a career year. Deng has a bigger role on offense with all the injuries the Bulls have had. Ultimately they will have similar roles and neither player can be a 3rd best player on a title team. When all the experts are calling Rose either one or two in the MVP race and all the stats guys are saying he's not in the top 4 of NBA PGs there is a problem. What he did last night against that DD should have proven everything.

Sorry for the confusion. This makes more sense. I disagree about them being comparable, but at least it makes sense.The NBA MVP race has never really been about who is the most valuable player. It's about who among the best players on the elite teams- already reducing the pool to like 6-8 guys- and then applying a few different criteria to that small group of guys: impressive stats, a leadership role, some highlight plays, coming up big in high profile games, and that's about it. Maybe a push for variety for league marketing purposes like we saw with MJ. Taking those criteria, Rose is clearly a leading candidate for MVP. That doesn't make him the best player or even the best PG (I think most "stat guys" would put him #2 among a close group of a couple guys). It makes him the a great candidate for the MVP award based on how it's usually determined.
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For the LeBron supporters, sure he has the better stats, but Wade is a HUGE difference over everyone on the Bulls squad. Right now every team the Bulls play are keying on Rose. But with the Heat, you must scheme against BOTH James & Wade...heck, someone above even mentioned Wade as the #3 MVP. He's that good and still in his prime.

IMO, Wade's greatness is the primary reason why people around basketball are giving the nod to Rose over LeBron, not some kind of "fatigue" or "boredom" with voting for James. If the Heat were bearing down on 70+ wins, I could see LeBron getting the love....but they aren't even atop their own division right now despite having the best 1-2 punch in the league.

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For the LeBron supporters, sure he has the better stats, but Wade is a HUGE difference over everyone on the Bulls squad. Right now every team the Bulls play are keying on Rose. But with the Heat, you must scheme against BOTH James & Wade...heck, someone above even mentioned Wade as the #3 MVP. He's that good and still in his prime.

IMO, Wade's greatness is the primary reason why people around basketball are giving the nod to Rose over LeBron, not some kind of "fatigue" or "boredom" with voting for James. If the Heat were bearing down on 70+ wins, I could see LeBron getting the love....but they aren't even atop their own division right now despite having the best 1-2 punch in the league.

They have a 5.5 game lead in their division, are tied for the best record in their conference and third overall in the league!
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Other: Lamarcus Aldridge! With no BRoy, noGOden, Camby surgery, Przybilla surger, he has the Blazers in the 5 spot in the west. Rose is definitely a valuable player for the Bulls, but Boozer could definitely up his game to compensate. Blazers have no decent B option just a bunch of Cs.

Amare is certainly a good pick for most VALUABLE too. Knicks were and would be downright awful without him.

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For the LeBron supporters, sure he has the better stats, but Wade is a HUGE difference over everyone on the Bulls squad. Right now every team the Bulls play are keying on Rose. But with the Heat, you must scheme against BOTH James & Wade...heck, someone above even mentioned Wade as the #3 MVP. He's that good and still in his prime.

IMO, Wade's greatness is the primary reason why people around basketball are giving the nod to Rose over LeBron, not some kind of "fatigue" or "boredom" with voting for James. If the Heat were bearing down on 70+ wins, I could see LeBron getting the love....but they aren't even atop their own division right now despite having the best 1-2 punch in the league.

They have a 5.5 game lead in their division, are tied for the best record in their conference and third overall in the league!
Tied in the standings for top in the conference, 2nd best record - Boston has a higher winning percentage. Only one team above them in the NBA standings though, the Spurs.
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Other: Lamarcus Aldridge! With no BRoy, noGOden, Camby surgery, Przybilla surger, he has the Blazers in the 5 spot in the west. Rose is definitely a valuable player for the Bulls, but Boozer could definitely up his game to compensate. Blazers have no decent B option just a bunch of Cs.

Amare is certainly a good pick for most VALUABLE too. Knicks were and would be downright awful without him.

And without the addition of Felton and Fields and moving Chandler from SG to forward. The combination of those three things did much more than the "trade" of Lee for Amare.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
No.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
No.
Yes.
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For the LeBron supporters, sure he has the better stats, but Wade is a HUGE difference over everyone on the Bulls squad. Right now every team the Bulls play are keying on Rose. But with the Heat, you must scheme against BOTH James & Wade...heck, someone above even mentioned Wade as the #3 MVP. He's that good and still in his prime.

IMO, Wade's greatness is the primary reason why people around basketball are giving the nod to Rose over LeBron, not some kind of "fatigue" or "boredom" with voting for James. If the Heat were bearing down on 70+ wins, I could see LeBron getting the love....but they aren't even atop their own division right now despite having the best 1-2 punch in the league.

They have a 5.5 game lead in their division, are tied for the best record in their conference and third overall in the league!
Tied in the standings for top in the conference, 2nd best record - Boston has a higher winning percentage. Only one team above them in the NBA standings though, the Spurs.
My bad, meant conference.

Insert and re-read.

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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
No.
Yes.
Please explain.Pull Rose from that team and they are pretty poor. Probably as poor as Utah is without Williams. Pull Nash from Phx and they still miss the playoffs. I can't really argue with the Dirk and Paul options.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
No.
Yes.
Of course, the difference is Nash's team is at .500. Williams' is only 5 games over and Paul's 8 games over. Rose's is 22 over.A player has little to no chance of being MVP if he is not on an elite team.
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Please explain.Pull Rose from that team and they are pretty poor. Probably as poor as Utah is without Williams. Pull Nash from Phx and they still miss the playoffs. I can't really argue with the Dirk and Paul options.

Phoenix is probably battling it out for with Toronto, Cleveland, Sacramento and Minny for the worst team in the league without Nash instead of having a chance at a playoff spot (very remote chance). Probably close to a 10 win team at this point.Utah without Williams would be maybe slightly ahead of that group but probably not by much, if any. He was unreal at the start of the year to get them a nice record. He's fallen off a bit as the year has gone on and their record has plummeted. Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference. If the criteria is the most valuable to their team and has one of the best records, then Dirk is the correct answer. Without him Dallas is a borderline playoff team at best. If the criteria is the best player on the one of the best teams, it is LeBron.
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Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.

So then the answer is Dirk, Nash, Williams or Paul. Not Rose. All of those players are more valuable to their teams than Rose is.
No.
Yes.
Of course, the difference is Nash's team is at .500. Williams' is only 5 games over and Paul's 8 games over. Rose's is 22 over.A player has little to no chance of being MVP if he is not on an elite team.
Agreed. But going by the criteria layed out by Your Mom, it is the most valuable player to their team. Phoenix, Utah, Dallas and NO see a far bigger dropoff than Chicago does, thus Rose is not as valuable to his team as Dirk, Nash, Paul and Williams.
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
Have you seen the teams making the playoffs in the east?
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
:popcorn:They've been .500 the last two years. Not a vastly different team. I think they're better than Charlotte, Milwaukee and Detroit if you substitute an average PG.
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
Have you seen the teams making the playoffs in the east?
I purposely mentioned the plus .500 comment because (as we know) there are a bunch of bad teams in the East. However, take Rose off the Bulls and they'd be lucky to be as good as the Bucks.
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
:mellow:They've been .500 the last two years. Not a vastly different team. I think they're better than Charlotte, Milwaukee and Detroit if you substitute an average PG.
I'm assuming C.J. Watson as the starter (less than average PG) and a D-Leaguer backup. Who's average? Someone like Felton? Stuckey? That would help but .500 still seems a little high.
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
:mellow:They've been .500 the last two years. Not a vastly different team. I think they're better than Charlotte, Milwaukee and Detroit if you substitute an average PG.
I'm assuming C.J. Watson as the starter (less than average PG) and a D-Leaguer backup. Who's average? Someone like Felton? Stuckey? That would help but .500 still seems a little high.
Stuckey, Calderon, Udrih, Conley, Lowry etc.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

Why is it so hard for people to understand MVP. Not one person will argue that Lebron is not a better basketball player than Rose. Who is more valuable to his team? It is MOST VALUABLE PLAYER, not MOST OUTSTANDING PLAYER.
Who should be MVP and who actually wins the award are usually 2 different things. It seems too many of those that vote on this pick Most Outstanding Player and not Most Valuable Player sometime even just picking Most Popular Player. There are also times it seems it is awarded based on other things with Shaq having only 1 MVP and Nash having 2 MVPs and some think Nash didn't even win in the correct year(s).
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Chicago without Rose is still a playoff team and would be +.500 imo especially in the weaker overall conference.

I can't imagine the Bulls being .500 without Rose -- particularly with Boozer and Noah missing time. They would be so outmatched athletically each night that they'd lose all their swagger and, in turn, their defensive intensity. I think they would probably be at least 10 games under .500.
:unsure:They've been .500 the last two years. Not a vastly different team. I think they're better than Charlotte, Milwaukee and Detroit if you substitute an average PG.
I'm assuming C.J. Watson as the starter (less than average PG) and a D-Leaguer backup. Who's average? Someone like Felton? Stuckey? That would help but .500 still seems a little high.
Stuckey, Calderon, Udrih, Conley, Lowry etc.
So that's starting lineups like:Conley, Bogans, Deng, Gibson, Noah orConley, Bogans, Deng, Boozer, K. ThomasSub in Korver or Brewer for Bogans if you'd like. That looks like a plus .500 team to you?
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So that's starting lineups like:Conley, Bogans, Deng, Gibson, Noah orConley, Bogans, Deng, Boozer, K. ThomasSub in Korver or Brewer for Bogans if you'd like. That looks like a plus .500 team to you?

In the East, yes. They are still one of the best defensive teams in the league without Rose which will get you plenty of wins. That team is pretty much on par with the Sixers (maybe better because of their defense) who are basically .500.ETA: And I'm not trying to say Rose isn't good. He's playing unreal this year. Just not the MVP.
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So that's starting lineups like:Conley, Bogans, Deng, Gibson, Noah orConley, Bogans, Deng, Boozer, K. ThomasSub in Korver or Brewer for Bogans if you'd like. That looks like a plus .500 team to you?

In the East, yes. They are still one of the best defensive teams in the league without Rose which will get you plenty of wins. That team is pretty much on par with the Sixers (maybe better because of their defense) who are basically .500.ETA: And I'm not trying to say Rose isn't good. He's playing unreal this year. Just not the MVP.
Bulls are 17-7 (.708) against the West and only 21-9 (.700) against the East, and that's with them having played a schedule weighted heavier with the top teams there. I think it's silly to believe this is a .500 team without Rose. Spurs, 1-1Dallas - 2-0Lakers - 1-1Oklahoma City - 1-1Portland - 1-1New Orleans - 1-0 Denver - 1-1Utah - 1-0Memphis - 1-0Phoenix - 1-0Golden State - 1-1Houston - 2-0Clippers - 1-1Sacramento - 1-0Minnesota - 1-0
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
Nothing if you're going to give the award to the most talented player in the league. Agreed, that's Lebron. Jordan should have had about 10 of them in a row minus the retirement years if that's the criteria. But we know that isn't how it works. You'd be looking at #4 in a row for Lebron here this year, and Kobe wouldn't have won that MVP award a few years ago which was more of a lifetime achievement award, if that's the way things worked.Using the criteria voters seem to use, this is Rose this year. Sorry Rose haters, that's how it is.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
Nothing if you're going to give the award to the most talented player in the league. Agreed, that's Lebron. Jordan should have had about 10 of them in a row minus the retirement years if that's the criteria. But we know that isn't how it works. You'd be looking at #4 in a row for Lebron here this year, and Kobe wouldn't have won that MVP award a few years ago which was more of a lifetime achievement award, if that's the way things worked.Using the criteria voters seem to use, this is Rose this year. Sorry Rose haters, that's how it is.
Not thinking Rose is the MVP does not make one a Rose hater. Unfortunately, you're right. The MVP doesn't always go to the most deserving player which is why Rose has a chance at it this year.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
Nothing if you're going to give the award to the most talented player in the league. Agreed, that's Lebron. Jordan should have had about 10 of them in a row minus the retirement years if that's the criteria. But we know that isn't how it works. You'd be looking at #4 in a row for Lebron here this year, and Kobe wouldn't have won that MVP award a few years ago which was more of a lifetime achievement award, if that's the way things worked.Using the criteria voters seem to use, this is Rose this year. Sorry Rose haters, that's how it is.
Not thinking Rose is the MVP does not make one a Rose hater. Unfortunately, you're right. The MVP doesn't always go to the most deserving player which is why Rose has a chance at it this year.
Nah, I can agree with that. I'm referring more to guys that suggested they wouldn't put him in their top 20 in those other polls. Or suggested that there's like 5 point guards better right now. Not trying to lump the rest of you in with the kev's. Just get under their skin a little. :goodposting:
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
Nothing if you're going to give the award to the most talented player in the league. Agreed, that's Lebron. Jordan should have had about 10 of them in a row minus the retirement years if that's the criteria. But we know that isn't how it works. You'd be looking at #4 in a row for Lebron here this year, and Kobe wouldn't have won that MVP award a few years ago which was more of a lifetime achievement award, if that's the way things worked.Using the criteria voters seem to use, this is Rose this year. Sorry Rose haters, that's how it is.
The poll is who is the MVP so far, not who the half ######ed voters are going to vote for. We all know that the people that vote for NBA awards (the group as a whole, not necessarily each individual) have no idea what they are doing. The Kobe, Nash, Malone and Barkley MVPs prove this. Any sort of post season honors in the NBA are a complete joke (including the honors voted on by the coaches) because the voters constantly vote based on reputation instead of play and ignore players they don't like.
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Nah, I can agree with that. I'm referring more to guys that suggested they wouldn't put him in their top 20 in those other polls. Or suggested that there's like 5 point guards better right now. Not trying to lump the rest of you in with the kev's. Just get under their skin a little. :)

Nice, I'm starting to get a reputation around here. Difference of opinion are what makes these discussions so fun for me.
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LeBron >>> Rose is pretty much every single aspect of the game and his team has a better record. Nothing to see here...

heat are 1-6 vs good teams while the bulls have beaten each of the good teams.top teams VS each otherspurs - 5-2Celtics - 7-2Heat - 1-6Bulls - 5-4Lakers- 2-5Heat are good when they play bad teams, but they cant beat the good teams. I would rather be 2 games behind at all-star break and know I can beat the good teams while missing the #2 best player (Noah/Boozer)
Yes. But what does that have to do with the MVP?
Nothing if you're going to give the award to the most talented player in the league. Agreed, that's Lebron. Jordan should have had about 10 of them in a row minus the retirement years if that's the criteria. But we know that isn't how it works. You'd be looking at #4 in a row for Lebron here this year, and Kobe wouldn't have won that MVP award a few years ago which was more of a lifetime achievement award, if that's the way things worked.Using the criteria voters seem to use, this is Rose this year. Sorry Rose haters, that's how it is.
The poll is who is the MVP so far, not who the half ######ed voters are going to vote for. We all know that the people that vote for NBA awards (the group as a whole, not necessarily each individual) have no idea what they are doing. The Kobe, Nash, Malone and Barkley MVPs prove this. Any sort of post season honors in the NBA are a complete joke (including the honors voted on by the coaches) because the voters constantly vote based on reputation instead of play and ignore players they don't like.
Hate to break it to you, but the guy the half assed voters vote for is the MVP. They give him the award. So that is reflected in the votes of people with sense.
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Nah, I can agree with that. I'm referring more to guys that suggested they wouldn't put him in their top 20 in those other polls. Or suggested that there's like 5 point guards better right now. Not trying to lump the rest of you in with the kev's. Just get under their skin a little. :)

An argument can be made for any ordering of the top 5 PGs today. Rose, Westbrook, Paul, Williams and Rondo are all amazing players and all offer something a little different. You really can't go wrong with any of them.*I only leave Nash off this list because he is so old. He's just as good as them IMO.
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Nah, I can agree with that. I'm referring more to guys that suggested they wouldn't put him in their top 20 in those other polls. Or suggested that there's like 5 point guards better right now. Not trying to lump the rest of you in with the kev's. Just get under their skin a little. :)

Nice, I'm starting to get a reputation around here. Difference of opinion are what makes these discussions so fun for me.
Same here. And despite what my douchebaggery might suggest, I actually respect and appreciate what you bring. It's all in good fun. :)
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