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2 hours ago, NutterButter said:

Yup, its happened to me before.  I think you're talking about "safe harbor".  Basically you and all your big baller colleagues are contributing far more than all the poor folks in the company and the government don't like that.   Google it for a far better explanation.  

That seems to be the case.  I think when they stopped the match people stopped contributing and that's when it kicked in.

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Well, today we paid off the last 22 years of our mortgage.  We sold/closed our investment property last week that we bought in 2013.  We did well on it and rolled that money up with some savings and p

Can't really talk about it with RL friends and most of it is pre-tax, but sat down with the wife and figured out that the household is officially in the two comma club. Ten years ago I was unemployed

My big win was in getting educated on personal finance, getting organized, and making a plan. Details: 1. Learned the value of an HSA and contributed for 2019 and 2020. 2. Got my wife’s

15 hours ago, BassNBrew said:

Forget the bonds.

Also looking at a 10 year horizon you don't need to be conservative.  Even if your balance dips by half this year, you will be ahead in 10 years.  Actually the market dropping helps you because your contributions buy more shares now that will be worth more later.  Maybe 2-3 years out I would look at bonds, but unless interest rates are up I would still want a dividend based stock fund.

I hear ya.  

one other goal for this account- I will be using this as my escrow.  That is, in addition to the difference in P&I, i am also socking away funds to pay my property insurance (July) and taxes (December).  Once I have enough in this account (in bonds or other less risky funds) to make sure these are covered, I will change the ratios.

I am also considering transferring money from savings into this as a better vehicle for my "emergency" fund - i.e. you generally want to have enough to cover expenses for 3-6 months if things go bad, right?  Might as well lump that in here as well.  I really need to sit down and think about if SHTF, what would be the bare minimum I need to keep my family solvent per month and make sure I have at least 3x that amount in low-risk accounts,

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15 hours ago, moleculo said:

That seems to be the case.  I think when they stopped the match people stopped contributing and that's when it kicked in.

I think a company wide email calling out those 401k laggards is in order.

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18 hours ago, NutterButter said:

Yup, its happened to me before.  I think you're talking about "safe harbor".  Basically you and all your big baller colleagues are contributing far more than all the poor folks in the company and the government don't like that.   Google it for a far better explanation.  

Actually, it's happening because their plan doesn't include a safe harbor provision.  If it did, the lower average deferral percentage among the NHCEs wouldn't matter, and there wouldn't be any refunds.

(401K plans are my area of professional expertise.)

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6 minutes ago, gruecd said:

Actually, it's happening because their plan doesn't include a safe harbor provision.  If it did, the lower average deferral percentage among the NHCEs wouldn't matter, and there wouldn't be any refunds.

(401K plans are my area of professional expertise.)

I think we lost "safe harbor" when we stopped matching...does that make sense?

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10 minutes ago, moleculo said:

I think we lost "safe harbor" when we stopped matching...does that make sense?

Possibly.  If it was a "safe harbor match" that was terminated and not a discretionary one, then yes.

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On 2/23/2021 at 9:02 AM, yak651 said:

Did look a little after we did this and Dave Ramsey is saying don't buy any LTI until 60 years old so guess I have a little time (11 years) to figure that out

Good luck affording it if you wait until age 60 to buy it.  And good luck even qualifying, since odds are much higher that you'll have some disqualifying condition by that point, too.

Between this and his advice to pre-pay mortgage debt even when rates are so low that it's damn-near free money, I'm not sure which is worse.

My advice?  I'm obviously conflicted, but if you want good quality financial/legal advice, pay a professional.  A lot of free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it... 

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So I am just signing onto a new Financial advisor since I wasn't too happy with the other one.

 

They are charging 1% AUM fee and then it goes down from there based on the amount of $ you have with them. They will be providing other services and not just managing my money.

My question is they asked about whether my 401K has a self directed brokerage window. Looks like they would like to help manage this as well. I am assuming this gets them more $ as well. They are a fiduciary (not really sure if it means much).

 

Does this seem like a good idea or should I just keep it out of their hands. FYI, it is right now in a target date fund.

 

Thx!

 

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7 minutes ago, b-snatchers said:

So I am just signing onto a new Financial advisor since I wasn't too happy with the other one.

 

They are charging 1% AUM fee and then it goes down from there based on the amount of $ you have with them. They will be providing other services and not just managing my money.

My question is they asked about whether my 401K has a self directed brokerage window. Looks like they would like to help manage this as well. I am assuming this gets them more $ as well. They are a fiduciary (not really sure if it means much).

 

Does this seem like a good idea or should I just keep it out of their hands. FYI, it is right now in a target date fund.

 

Thx!

 

FWIW, my financial advisor does not want to manage my (or his other clients) 401k accounts. He said he will give them some advice on security selection but he prefers that they take some ownership to help them better understand the markets and keep track of what's going on from month to month. Costs him some money though but I like that approach. 

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22 minutes ago, b-snatchers said:

So I am just signing onto a new Financial advisor since I wasn't too happy with the other one.

 

They are charging 1% AUM fee and then it goes down from there based on the amount of $ you have with them. They will be providing other services and not just managing my money.

My question is they asked about whether my 401K has a self directed brokerage window. Looks like they would like to help manage this as well. I am assuming this gets them more $ as well. They are a fiduciary (not really sure if it means much).

 

Does this seem like a good idea or should I just keep it out of their hands. FYI, it is right now in a target date fund.

 

Thx!

 

That's interesting.  My firm wouldn't even allow me to advise on assets held away like that...

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3 hours ago, gruecd said:

My advice?  I'm obviously conflicted, but if you want good quality financial/legal advice, pay a professional.  A lot of free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it... 

100%.

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25 minutes ago, b-snatchers said:

So I am just signing onto a new Financial advisor since I wasn't too happy with the other one.

 

They are charging 1% AUM fee and then it goes down from there based on the amount of $ you have with them. They will be providing other services and not just managing my money.

My question is they asked about whether my 401K has a self directed brokerage window. Looks like they would like to help manage this as well. I am assuming this gets them more $ as well. They are a fiduciary (not really sure if it means much).

 

Does this seem like a good idea or should I just keep it out of their hands. FYI, it is right now in a target date fund.

 

Thx!

 

Interesting. 

I would clarify if they would be using the balance to increase charge. If so, I would pass for sure. Many 401K's are getting fee'd to death as is regardless of selections. You don't want to add another charge on top of that. The nice thing about a target date fund is that it is set and forget and is good for those who don't otherwise know what to do. 

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32 minutes ago, b-snatchers said:

My question is they asked about whether my 401K has a self directed brokerage window. Looks like they would like to help manage this as well. I am assuming this gets them more $ as well. They are a fiduciary (not really sure if it means much).

It’s worth looking into for comparison sake.  You may be paying 1% for the lifecycle fund so a switch to the brokerage window could drop those costs considerably.  Of course the advisor is going to charge you and you may end up back around 1% but with someone actively managing your money in a coordinated fashion.  Or you could move it to the brokerage window and manage it yourself.  I’m making a lot of assumptions here but worth a look.

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36 minutes ago, Lion to myself said:

It’s worth looking into for comparison sake.  You may be paying 1% for the lifecycle fund so a switch to the brokerage window could drop those costs considerably.  Of course the advisor is going to charge you and you may end up back around 1% but with someone actively managing your money in a coordinated fashion.  Or you could move it to the brokerage window and manage it yourself.  I’m making a lot of assumptions here but worth a look.

How would I determine what the costs are for the fund I am in now (Vanguard Target Date Fund 2030). I can get into my account but don't see any costs?

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1 hour ago, Lion to myself said:

It’s worth looking into for comparison sake.  You may be paying 1% for the lifecycle fund

Very, VERY unlikely 

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39 minutes ago, b-snatchers said:

How would I determine what the costs are for the fund I am in now (Vanguard Target Date Fund 2030). I can get into my account but don't see any costs?

Depends on share class, but less than 0.15%

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4 hours ago, b-snatchers said:

How would I determine what the costs are for the fund I am in now (Vanguard Target Date Fund 2030). I can get into my account but don't see any costs?

It’s on your account page somewhere but as gruecdr mentioned it’s going to be low given it’s Vanguard.  It will not even be close to 1% and is most likely .15%.  I’d still explore the brokerage option and hear what you advisor has in mind.  But definitely consider the additional cost before making any decision.  Nothing wrong with a set it and forget option like a Lifecycle fund.  

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17 hours ago, Chadstroma said:

Interesting. 

I would clarify if they would be using the balance to increase charge. If so, I would pass for sure. Many 401K's are getting fee'd to death as is regardless of selections. You don't want to add another charge on top of that. The nice thing about a target date fund is that it is set and forget and is good for those who don't otherwise know what to do. 

I know personal capital was going to add my TSP to the bill. Wasn't going to sign up with them anyway but that sealed it.

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12 hours ago, Lion to myself said:

It’s on your account page somewhere but as gruecdr mentioned it’s going to be low given it’s Vanguard.  It will not even be close to 1% and is most likely .15%.  I’d still explore the brokerage option and hear what you advisor has in mind.  But definitely consider the additional cost before making any decision.  Nothing wrong with a set it and forget option like a Lifecycle fund.  

:2cents:

I'd much rather use a lifecycle fund through vanguard than pay a FA on an AUM setup.  advisors can be very helpful for many things, but managing your investments is very low on that list.

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Finding the basis for a Muni Bond from a specific date in 2018?
My dad is trying to file and inherited bonds in a brokerage.
I can get him a basis as of 10/31/18, but the decedents date of death is 9/6/18.
A little reluctant to file with a basis almost two months later, but not able to find the cost of the CUSIP as of the date of death through google or Fidelity.
Any thoughts?

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2 minutes ago, Gawain said:

Finding the basis for a Muni Bond from a specific date in 2018?
My dad is trying to file and inherited bonds in a brokerage.
I can get him a basis as of 10/31/18, but the decedents date of death is 9/6/18.
A little reluctant to file with a basis almost two months later, but not able to find the cost of the CUSIP as of the date of death through google or Fidelity.
Any thoughts?

So you are looking for the price of the CUSIP on 9/6/18? Send it to me and I'll check around.

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1 minute ago, Desert_Power said:

So you are looking for the price of the CUSIP on 9/6/18? Send it to me and I'll check around.

59261AJK4

METROPOLITAN TRANSN AUTH N Y

ETA: Thanks for looking. What I found wanted me to pay, or I have a Fidelity quarter close.

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57 minutes ago, Gawain said:

59261AJK4

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ETA: Thanks for looking. What I found wanted me to pay, or I have a Fidelity quarter close.

No dice on what I can access. Sent it to a friend to look up on his Bloomberg if he hasn't already gone on paternity leave since yesterday. This would be much easier in the office where I could walk over to a terminal. 

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10 minutes ago, Desert_Power said:

No dice on what I can access. Sent it to a friend to look up on his Bloomberg if he hasn't already gone on paternity leave since yesterday. This would be much easier in the office where I could walk over to a terminal. 

My pop has his money with Edward Jones, so I told him to call them and lean on em a bit. If you are going to pay somebody to manage your cash, they ought to be good for this.

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So, I know this thing is still working it’s way through but a question regarding the new stimulus bill - does anyone know if anyone who has a child born in 2021 is eligible for the additional stimulus dollars, including the child tax credit or child dependent care tax credit? Ours was born in early 2021 and curious if we would be able to retroactively receive this when we file 2021 taxes.

Thank you in advance 

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39 minutes ago, bcnfinance said:

So, I know this thing is still working it’s way through but a question regarding the new stimulus bill - does anyone know if anyone who has a child born in 2021 is eligible for the additional stimulus dollars, including the child tax credit or child dependent care tax credit? Ours was born in early 2021 and curious if we would be able to retroactively receive this when we file 2021 taxes.

Thank you in advance 

Just a guess, but this is based on 2020 returns (if filed) so it seems unlikely.

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Quote from forbes:

The IRS is making steady progress: As of February 26, 45.3 million returns had been received, with 39.4 million processed. The IRS had issued 28.3 million refunds. The average refund was $3,021.

 

I get that with changes throughout the year, possible capital losses, etc that there may be people getting a return that weren't planning on it. But it seems crazy to me when people actively plan to get a refund. Some go so far as to call it their savings plan.  I was pretty happy to owe the US a few hundred and get a little more than that back from the state. 

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14 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

Quote from forbes:

The IRS is making steady progress: As of February 26, 45.3 million returns had been received, with 39.4 million processed. The IRS had issued 28.3 million refunds. The average refund was $3,021.

 

I get that with changes throughout the year, possible capital losses, etc that there may be people getting a return that weren't planning on it. But it seems crazy to me when people actively plan to get a refund. Some go so far as to call it their savings plan.  I was pretty happy to owe the US a few hundred and get a little more than that back from the state. 

You and Suzy Orman are not happy about this.  I voluntarily underpay so much each year that I get hit with a penalty, but I make more investing the underpayment throughout the year so I haven't been motivated to submit a new w4.

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Question about unemployment benefits.  My wife recieved some partial unemployment in 2020.  Today she received an additional payment for 2020 to correct an error.  Should this be included as 2020 income or 2021?  Haven't looked at the state site yet to see if they have any info.

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

Quote from forbes:

The IRS is making steady progress: As of February 26, 45.3 million returns had been received, with 39.4 million processed. The IRS had issued 28.3 million refunds. The average refund was $3,021.

 

I get that with changes throughout the year, possible capital losses, etc that there may be people getting a return that weren't planning on it. But it seems crazy to me when people actively plan to get a refund. Some go so far as to call it their savings plan.  I was pretty happy to owe the US a few hundred and get a little more than that back from the state. 

My property tax and house insurance come to about $6000. I just figure on using withholding as my escrow. It's probably not right, but has worked for 30 years. 

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2 hours ago, NutterButter said:

You and Suzy Orman are not happy about this.  I voluntarily underpay so much each year that I get hit with a penalty, but I make more investing the underpayment throughout the year so I haven't been motivated to submit a new w4.

🤷🏽‍♂️ It doesn't matter if I'm happy. I just don't get the logic. 

59 minutes ago, Freak Show said:

My property tax and house insurance come to about $6000. I just figure on using withholding as my escrow. It's probably not right, but has worked for 30 years. 

Ok. At least there's a thought process to this. It's not optimal, but if you're happy. 

I use Worthy bonds for my escrow. It isn't much and they keep selling out, but I get some interest in it. 5% annual isn't much but it pays for a dinner or two. And it doubles as an emergency fund, which you don't get when you're waiting for a refund.

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1 hour ago, NutterButter said:

It matters to me. 

😳💚

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7 hours ago, Gawain said:

Finding the basis for a Muni Bond from a specific date in 2018?
My dad is trying to file and inherited bonds in a brokerage.
I can get him a basis as of 10/31/18, but the decedents date of death is 9/6/18.
A little reluctant to file with a basis almost two months later, but not able to find the cost of the CUSIP as of the date of death through google or Fidelity.
Any thoughts?

If Desert Power can’t get it for you, you might look at https://emma.msrb.org/ and see if the bond traded that date and use that.  Good chance with a MTA bond.  
 

Or somebody in EJ should have BBerg access.  

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On 3/1/2021 at 8:59 AM, D'OHtis said:

Just starting out investing and seeking out some advice. Any advice is appreciated. Currently 26. Have 2 employers. Roth will be through Fidelity. Plan on getting bonds as get older.

Roth IRA: Will max out. Looking at 80/20 split. FZROX (80) Fidelity Zero Total Stock Market Index Fund / FZILX (20) Fidelity Zero International Index Fund. (I've considered 60/20/20 including FSSNX Fidelity Small Cap Index Fund as the other 20% but looking at putting it into Deferred Comp instead).

HSA thru employer #1 via Optum Bank: Will Max out. 100% VITSX Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund in all likelihood. Anyone had experience with Optum Bank investing? (Is new with employer). Investment options: https://imgur.com/nLRrvnh

Deferred Comp employer #1 thru Nationwide: FXAIX (60) Fidelity 500 Index Fund, FSSNX Fidelity Small Cap Index Fund (20), FSMDX Fidelity Mid Cap Index Fund (20). I don't believe a "Total Market Fund" is available. I am debating whether to substitute FSPSX Fidelity International Fund here (but have International Fund in Roth). Would prefer to keep 3 prong approach here but very open to suggestions.

Employer #2 does offer 50% of 4% (or 2% match). May look into that up to the match but not crazy about the company handling it (OneAmerica). All the funds look to have really high expense ratios. https://imgur.com/ex5HuJV

Have employer pension as well but don't believe I'm able to determine what invest in. 

May get into individual stocks once I get the above going.

Thanks for any input!

Any advice on additional investment options? I've been bad at investing til recently but planning on looking at all options.

Right now:

Employer #1: Govt pension / HSA Max / Max towards 457b Deferred Comp (I am only PT employee there now. Will probably move to FT sometime in future to increase pension). Nearly all my earnings here are now being invested.

Employer #2: Investing up their 4% match. I'm much more likely to leave this employer than Employer #3 in the future so will just take a bit of the free money they're offering. As mentioned prior, the fund options with this employer stink IMO but will do the remainder maxing out through Employer #3. I have a bit of extra money to play with here after personal expenses and where the crux of my question lies. (This is my only FT gig)

Employer #3: Got and accepted an offer this week for another PT gig. I'll be able to do it "alongside" the other 2. It is a very well known company that matches 100% to 5%. Planning on maxing out (minus my employer #2 contribution to employer match). I've yet to look at their fund options but should be much much better than Employer #2 which is a much smaller company. Why I've looked at Covid as a great employment opportunity with more WFH options available than ever. I've even tried to diversify my employers just in case the worst happens. (I'm safe with Employer #1 and probably Employer #2 where they've offered me pretty much unlimited # hours since Covid hit)

After googling it I believe the answer is no, but employer contributions don't count towards 401k $19500 yearly contribution max, correct? 

With leftover money I was thinking about investing in more Index Funds in brokerage account through Fidelity. But maybe better investment vehicles exist? Maybe I'll do some individual stocks but I'd just much prefer to throw in on Index Funds and kind of forget about it. I don't see myself ever closely monitoring stock market / day trading.

Another option is real estate but would prefer the market to cool down here (who knows if it will but I believe it will after all the government assistance is through) but when it crashes here it really crashes. I'd prefer waiting it out as there's a lot of potential money to be made with it. Last option, which I've just started looking into, would be to start custodial accounts for my niece and nephew.

Thanks again for all assistance!

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6 hours ago, NutterButter said:

You and Suzy Orman are not happy about this.  I voluntarily underpay so much each year that I get hit with a penalty, but I make more investing the underpayment throughout the year so I haven't been motivated to submit a new w4.

Braver than me. I like breaking even. Hard to do in CA. I hate getting huge tax bills.

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42 minutes ago, D'OHtis said:

After googling it I believe the answer is no, but employer contributions don't count towards 401k $19500 yearly contribution max, correct? 

Correct.  And to answer you other question, investing in index funds in a fidelity brokerage is a great idea.  That’s my vote given you are taking advantage of the tax deferred plans, HSAs and Roth already.  Build that after tax portfolio.  Down the road you can get into individual stocks if you like.  

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On 3/6/2021 at 1:07 PM, Gawain said:

59261AJK4

METROPOLITAN TRANSN AUTH N Y

ETA: Thanks for looking. What I found wanted me to pay, or I have a Fidelity quarter close.

So apparently this bond is very illiquid and only trades "by appointment"....which explains why information is so hard to come by. There was a trade of 109.152 on 9/4/18 and a trade of 108.513 on 9/13/18 with nothing in between on the terminal. Hope this helps.

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1 hour ago, Desert_Power said:

So apparently this bond is very illiquid and only trades "by appointment"....which explains why information is so hard to come by. There was a trade of 109.152 on 9/4/18 and a trade of 108.513 on 9/13/18 with nothing in between on the terminal. Hope this helps.

Thank you so much. Very much obliged.

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On 3/6/2021 at 2:26 PM, -OZ- said:

Quote from forbes:

The IRS is making steady progress: As of February 26, 45.3 million returns had been received, with 39.4 million processed. The IRS had issued 28.3 million refunds. The average refund was $3,021.

 

I get that with changes throughout the year, possible capital losses, etc that there may be people getting a return that weren't planning on it. But it seems crazy to me when people actively plan to get a refund. Some go so far as to call it their savings plan.  I was pretty happy to owe the US a few hundred and get a little more than that back from the state. 

Yeah, with how crazy 2020 was I had no idea if I was under or over and made some moves to make sure I wasn't underpaying.  Turns out I way overpaid both feds and state.  Ah, well.  I just chalk it up to another reason 2020 will always be "that year".

On the good side we managed to save 53% of our income after taxes in 2020.  That's up from 42% in 2019.

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On 3/6/2021 at 8:16 PM, Andrew74 said:

If Desert Power can’t get it for you, you might look at https://emma.msrb.org/ and see if the bond traded that date and use that.  Good chance with a MTA bond.  
 

Or somebody in EJ should have BBerg access.  

 

8 hours ago, Desert_Power said:

So apparently this bond is very illiquid and only trades "by appointment"....which explains why information is so hard to come by. There was a trade of 109.152 on 9/4/18 and a trade of 108.513 on 9/13/18 with nothing in between on the terminal. Hope this helps.

Or maybe not.  
 

Maybe the terminal doesn’t have indicative values from a pricing service? @gawain I can ask a guy at one of my bond dealers to see if he has a price.  

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2 hours ago, Andrew74 said:

 

Or maybe not.  
 

Maybe the terminal doesn’t have indicative values from a pricing service? @gawain I can ask a guy at one of my bond dealers to see if he has a price.  

Would it fly to just average those two and call it good?  If the IRS calls you down on that it seems a reasonable solution.

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17 hours ago, Sand said:

".

On the good side we managed to save 53% of our income after taxes in 2020.  That's up from 42% in 2019.

That's impressive. I'm content with 30% automatic and a little extra after that. 

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19 hours ago, Sand said:

Yeah, with how crazy 2020 was I had no idea if I was under or over and made some moves to make sure I wasn't underpaying.  Turns out I way overpaid both feds and state.  Ah, well.  I just chalk it up to another reason 2020 will always be "that year".

On the good side we managed to save 53% of our income after taxes in 2020.  That's up from 42% in 2019.

Since 401 is typically pre-tax, how does that factor into your calculation?    How about a company match?  I assume college savings count but what about home equity?  I know lots of questions.  Just trying to determine if I could get to your percentage as a fun little exercise.   

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2 hours ago, -OZ- said:

That's impressive. I'm content with 30% automatic and a little extra after that. 

That’s crazy. With 3 kids, no clue how I’d ever do that until they were out on their own. I know we’re at least 20ish% although I guess I should count college payments in there since I’m trying to not touch investments for that and have done decent so far. Would definitely bump up the %.

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Just did my first run at my 2020 taxes.  Not good.  Even though my allowances are at 0 (and I have 2 kids), I still owe a boatload in federal taxes (and might have to pay a penalty).  I should get some back in state taxes.  I am wondering why the amount withheld for federal would be so out of line compared to state.  Should I ask for additional $$ withheld for federal aside from the typical for 0 allowances.

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2 hours ago, NutterButter said:

Since 401 is typically pre-tax, how does that factor into your calculation?    How about a company match?  I assume college savings count but what about home equity?  I know lots of questions.  Just trying to determine if I could get to your percentage as a fun little exercise.   

Pretty easy calc.  I take total income and subtract all taxes (fed, state, local, RE, car) to get "real income".  I get expenses for the year from Personal Capital.  Then it's just (real income-expenses)/real income.  So it ignores home equity and ignores company match.  It does encapsulate my contributions to 401k and HSA.

BTW, real income is a bit different than taxable income(purely a tax form number) as that's clouded a bit with deductions that don't really reflect what you really keep in your pocket at the end of the day.  My "real income" is a bit higher than taxable income on tax forms.

Edited by Sand
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1 hour ago, The Z Machine said:

Just did my first run at my 2020 taxes.  Not good.  Even though my allowances are at 0 (and I have 2 kids), I still owe a boatload in federal taxes (and might have to pay a penalty).  I should get some back in state taxes.  I am wondering why the amount withheld for federal would be so out of line compared to state.  Should I ask for additional $$ withheld for federal aside from the typical for 0 allowances.

Not sure how you end up there.  Did you have a ton of stock gains or something similar that don't have withholding?

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4 minutes ago, Sand said:

Pretty easy calc.  I take total income and subtract all taxes (fed, state, local, RE, car) to get "real income".  I get expenses for the year from Personal Capital.  Then it's just (real income-expenses)/real income.  So it ignores home equity and ignores company match.  It does encapsulate my contributions to 401k and HSA.

BTW, real income is a bit different than taxable income that gets entered there as that's clouded a bit with deductions that don't really reflect what you really keep in your pocket at the end of the day.  My "real income" is a bit higher than taxable income on tax forms.

Gotcha.  I don't track expenses so your approach isn't an option for me.   Oh well.   So much for that exercise.  

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