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3 minutes ago, matttyl said:

Depends on the work he's doing for you.  If all he's doing is putting you in a set fund in a ROTH IRA or something, then $0 would be an appropriate fee.

He's basically coming up with a Financial Plan for us to follow every year. IRAs, investments, insurance, retirement, education planning, etc.

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Well, today we paid off the last 22 years of our mortgage.  We sold/closed our investment property last week that we bought in 2013.  We did well on it and rolled that money up with some savings and p

Can't really talk about it with RL friends and most of it is pre-tax, but sat down with the wife and figured out that the household is officially in the two comma club. Ten years ago I was unemployed

My big win was in getting educated on personal finance, getting organized, and making a plan. Details: 1. Learned the value of an HSA and contributed for 2019 and 2020. 2. Got my wife’s

11 minutes ago, FUBAR said:

The bolded is why you diversify based on time horizons and don't just ignore your investments over 50 years. 

re:2008.

So, what would you have been diversified in during 2008 to have avoided losing your shirt?  On that chart, every asset class save 1 had a loss of at least 28%.  This chart shows the best performing asset that year was the money market earning less than 2%.

I don't want the post to come across as dickish, but even diversifying doesn't cure all.

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1 hour ago, matttyl said:

And you're taking the risk of still being insurable at that time.  I just had a guy who bought a ten year term policy as he thought at the time it was all he needed.  It expired and we looked at getting another one to replace it.  He was declined for health reasons that were discovered in the underwriting for the policy.  I bet he now wishes he could go back and buy the permanent policy.

If people have to stack term insurance, they are likely coming out a loser.  I think that is a very small percentage though.  I would advise most anyone not to do a 10 yr term, stick with 20 as a minimum (not too much more $$).  Things can change over 10 years, but you should be able to cover over 20

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Just now, wilked said:

If people have to stack term insurance, they are likely coming out a loser.  I think that is a very small percentage though.  I would advise most anyone not to do a 10 yr term, stick with 20 as a minimum (not too much more $$).  Things can change over 10 years, but you should be able to cover over 20

I agree that in most cases 20 isn't much more than 10 (I can run quotes if you like, but we agree).  But, if you're 25, though, a 20 year term is only going to get you to 45.  You've still got another 20 years till average retirement (maybe more).  So all the 25 year olds that don't die by 45 will have to stack coverage if you want to continue with any coverage at all.  I was 22 or 23 when I had my first policy (small one to offset a mortgage - set it up to be exactly $100 a month, which I figured was one good night out a month).  I'm now 35, and don't plan on dying in the next 7 years when a 20 year policy would have expired.

Some carriers also do 30 year term, but the premium is getting much higher (roughly 2x that of a 20 year if not more) and closer to that of a permanent policy - making whole life an even better deal for them when compared side by side.

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3 hours ago, thecatch said:

Yay California!

if the hospital is state run and you are an employee of the State, your pension is probably safer than if you are a city/county employee because of the way the bankruptcy laws work, for what that's worth. 

County.

Any other opinions? 

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13 hours ago, No. 16 said:

I need some advice regarding staying with my current employer based on retirement options. I work as a RN at a public hospital. I'm happy where I'm at right now but after reading some articles regarding the pension system I'm scared ####less. The pension plan is great... 2% x "Years of service" at 55. I'm 30 years old so if I work until 60, I can get up to 60% of last 3 years final salary. My current hourly wage is middle of the pack.... not the worst, but I could get about 10-15% more at other hospitals, but the pension plan supposedly makes up for it (though I never calculated the numbers). However, reading these two articles The Pension Fund that Ate CA and The Tragedy of CA Pensions really makes me worried:

So basically I'm worried that I won't end up with anything or that I'll end up with a lot less than I'm planning on getting. I'm 30 years old and with my experience I am confident I can get a job at another hospital that offers more hourly pay AND an 401k vs pension.

So should I stay with my current employer or leave for a 401k? Again, aside from the retirement I'm happy where I'm at, but this is a pretty big deal.

Some input please. Thanks.

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4 hours ago, Dentist said:

no, you don't need those, at all.

You need to start with an emergency fund (6 mo worth of expenditures)

then a roth IRA (unless you have some type of work retirement program with a match)

then an HSA if elegible

then maybe work on a down payment fund for buying a home if that's a goal.

adequate insurance?

529 is so far down on the scale of things that you should do that I seriously doubt you'll be able to contribute to this in the next 5-10 years.

Emergency Fund - started already but not fully funded for 6 months

Roth - I have a 401k and put 10% in plus 3.5% match so I think  at 13.5% right now.  Should I do a Roth too?

HSA - you mean a health savings account?  Have one through work that I use already

House down payment - this was my thought too - start saving for buying later

Any other big ones I'm missing?  Will try to pick up that book tonight if I can.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Emergency Fund - started already but not fully funded for 6 months

Roth - I have a 401k and put 10% in plus 3.5% match so I think  at 13.5% right now.  Should I do a Roth too?

HSA - you mean a health savings account?  Have one through work that I use already

House down payment - this was my thought too - start saving for buying later

Any other big ones I'm missing?  Will try to pick up that book tonight if I can.

 

 

 

You might have mentioned it, but if you have any non mortgage debt, pay that off.

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49 minutes ago, matttyl said:

I agree that in most cases 20 isn't much more than 10 (I can run quotes if you like, but we agree).  But, if you're 25, though, a 20 year term is only going to get you to 45.  You've still got another 20 years till average retirement (maybe more).  So all the 25 year olds that don't die by 45 will have to stack coverage if you want to continue with any coverage at all.  I was 22 or 23 when I had my first policy (small one to offset a mortgage - set it up to be exactly $100 a month, which I figured was one good night out a month).  I'm now 35, and don't plan on dying in the next 7 years when a 20 year policy would have expired.

Some carriers also do 30 year term, but the premium is getting much higher (roughly 2x that of a 20 year if not more) and closer to that of a permanent policy - making whole life an even better deal for them when compared side by side.

Again, why are you buying 20 yr at 22? Why not but 25/30 if you still need insurance at those ages? 

 

I have term thru age 55 or so. 

 

Basically, but term for a duration that confidently gets the kids 18 and the house largely paid off. At that point you should not require insurance any longer 

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Just now, wilked said:

Again, why are you buying 20 yr at 22? Why not but 25/30 if you still need insurance at those ages? 

 

I have term thru age 55 or so. 

 

Basically, but term for a duration that confidently gets the kids 18 and the house largely paid off. At that point you should not require insurance any longer 

Because as I said above, the 30 year term is typically about 2x the 20 year term in cost.  Even a 30 year term, though, will only cover a 25 year old to age 55.  The guy above was asking about coverage to age 70.  You might be fine with coverage to age 55 - is your spouse going to be living off of your income at that time (even if the kids are 18 which is still in college, and the house is paid off)?  If so, you may still need coverage.

Quick quote I did - 40 year old, decent health male.  500k of 30 year term ranges from 1,000-1,300 a year.  Call it 1,150.  A permanent 500k policy would be (I ran a very fast quote here) 3,900 a year - which is 2,750 more a year.  That's not a small amount more, I get that.  Some people can't easily account for the difference, and if so this isn't for them.  Cash value in that policy at age 70 (30 years in) is 223k.  That works out to a 6.15% net after tax which you would have to get if doing the "buy 30 year term and invest the difference."  If you feel you can get that net after tax in a safe, liquid place over the next 30 years then by all means you should do it.  Those type of places are few and far between, though.

Again, I'm not saying all of your money should be there.  But I think it's a good place for a chuck of it - especially if earmarked as safe, liquid, and income tax free (as you are using after tax dollars to fund it). 

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Whole life is for suckers IMO, the sales pitch by twisting the numbers doesn't make any sense.  Term is an off the shelf product designed to protect against sudden death, it's specific coverage.  Get term, don't pay silly fees, invest in investment accounts and not in whole life, and you'll come out ahead in most instances. 

Here is a good article pointing out why Whole Life is not for most of us:  https://momanddadmoney.com/why-whole-life-insurance-is-a-bad-investment/


 

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1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

Emergency Fund - started already but not fully funded for 6 months

Roth - I have a 401k and put 10% in plus 3.5% match so I think  at 13.5% right now.  Should I do a Roth too?

HSA - you mean a health savings account?  Have one through work that I use already

House down payment - this was my thought too - start saving for buying later

Any other big ones I'm missing?  Will try to pick up that book tonight if I can.

 

 

 

1) get emergency fund to 6 mo.

2) Rund the work 401k up until you achieve the maximum from 3.5% match, and no more

3) then fund a roth for you and a wife if you have one  until the max of $5500 or 11K for 2 people.

4)  You may have an HSA at work, but are you putting the maximum contribution into it?  $3300 for individual,  $6500 for a family that's both on a high deductible plan

5) Then come back to the work 401k and fund until the allowable maximum of $18,000 unless you are over 50, in which case it's 24K.

You can work saving for a house down payment at any point you see fit in there.

Then and only then you can begin to think about a 529 plan... which means 98% of people should never do a 529

This is my basic plan for taking a 100k+ income and reducing it down to the point where you are barely above the poverty line.... but you'll minimize your taxes and should be able to retire early.

 

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34 minutes ago, Dentist said:

1) get emergency fund to 6 mo.

2) Rund the work 401k up until you achieve the maximum from 3.5% match, and no more

3) then fund a roth for you and a wife if you have one  until the max of $5500 or 11K for 2 people.

4)  You may have an HSA at work, but are you putting the maximum contribution into it?  $3300 for individual,  $6500 for a family that's both on a high deductible plan

5) Then come back to the work 401k and fund until the allowable maximum of $18,000 unless you are over 50, in which case it's 24K.

You can work saving for a house down payment at any point you see fit in there.

Then and only then you can begin to think about a 529 plan... which means 98% of people should never do a 529

This is my basic plan for taking a 100k+ income and reducing it down to the point where you are barely above the poverty line.... but you'll minimize your taxes and should be able to retire early.

 

Just to expand a little on 2 and 3.  This allows you more control over the investment.  You can most likely get a lower cost investment in your Roth than anything in your 401k.  You also don't have to worry about it if/when you switch jobs.  And if/when you switch jobs, you should roll your 401k into an IRA where you have control and lower fees (follow the proper process for this).

 

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39 minutes ago, George Jefferson Airplane said:

Whole life is for suckers IMO, the sales pitch by twisting the numbers doesn't make any sense.  Term is an off the shelf product designed to protect against sudden death, it's specific coverage.  Get term, don't pay silly fees, invest in investment accounts and not in whole life, and you'll come out ahead in most instances. 

Here is a good article pointing out why Whole Life is not for most of us:  https://momanddadmoney.com/why-whole-life-insurance-is-a-bad-investment/

#1 - Of course it isn't diversified - one one part of your own personal diversification.  As I mentioned above, if all of your money was in the market (and pretty much in any market) in 2008, you were screwed.  If 10-30% of your worth is in the cash value of the policy, and the other 70-90% is invested in the market or something similar, that's actually increasing your diversification, not decreasing it.  As I've stated, it is a great alternative to money that would otherwise be in a CD or money market.

#2 - Returns aren't guaranteed.  Neither are they anywhere else.  As mentioned in the article, though, there is a minimum guaranteed return here - and you aren't getting that ANYWHERE else (outside of a CD or similar).  I don't know the policy he was shown, but the minimum of many policies is between 2-4 and change percent (the policy is mandated by law to do at least that).  Where are you getting that guarantee anywhere else?

#3 - Good returns take a relatively long time (now this is depending on the product of course).  Just makes it more appropriate for younger folks, right?  A 25 year old wouldn't be buying a whole life plan with the thought of great 5 or even 10 year returns.

#4 - Their #1 in here has nothing to do with liquidity,  #2 doesn't apply to whole life (it applied to UL and VUL policies), #3 is only partially true (would take a while to explain, but you don't have to pay back interest if you don't want to).

#5 - Not true at all.  I've stopped paying premiums on my own personal policy for years (when I bought my first house).  The policy loaned it's own premium out of it's own cash value (took a loan against itself).  You can't do that with term anyway, so why would it be a negative against whole life?!

#6 - The guy even contradicts himself here saying " So no, there aren’t “taxes” applied those to loans ".  I don't know what point he's trying to make.  Yes, your death benefit will be net of any outstanding loans on the policy, but that only makes sense.

#7 - You think term policies don't have commissions, administrative fees, or cost of insurance?  All of them, for either whole or term, are built into your premiums.  There aren't additional fees.

#8 - Again, no one is saying to do a whole life policy and not also invest in other places.  It's not a one or the other type situation.  I think you're better diversified when you have both.  2008 (and really the first decade of the 2000's) proved that.

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5 hours ago, matttyl said:

His credentials above all else.  Ask if he's paid by commissions or by fee - then ask yourself if you're ok with his answer (either are fine with me, but I'd like to know).

There are great people out there and horrible ones.  You should get a trigger warning if he starts mentioning unlisted REITs, annuities, funds with front loaded fees (Lord Abbott, etc.), tries to assemble an investment plan with 20 funds, or other such foolishness.  Whatever he recommends come back and tell us what he said and we can tell you if he's blowing smoke up your ###.

 

3 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

Emergency Fund - started already but not fully funded for 6 months

Roth - I have a 401k and put 10% in plus 3.5% match so I think  at 13.5% right now.  Should I do a Roth too?

HSA - you mean a health savings account?  Have one through work that I use already

House down payment - this was my thought too - start saving for buying later

Any other big ones I'm missing?  Will try to pick up that book tonight if I can.

If you can swing the expense out of pocket the best way to use an HSA is not to use it and let it grow.  By its rules it's an incredible retirement vehicle.  Read this.

 

What if you were set to retire in 2008 or early 2009 when the market took a dive?

5 hours ago, FUBAR said:

>The bolded is why you diversify based on time horizons and don't just ignore your investments over 50 years. 

The biggest factor in retirement funding success are portfolio returns right after retirement.  The current thinking is that the stock allocation should look like a parabola with the nadir at retirement age - blunt the effects of a possible downturn and then increase stock allocation as you get further in retirement (believe it or not the odds get better, not worse, of outliving your money if you bump up your stock allocation rather than go down as you age).  You can't predict or control returns, so its obviously a crapshoot.  If we all retire at the start of a late 60's return environment it will suck.  If we all retire in the middle of a raging bull market we'll have a much higher level of security.

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5 hours ago, FUBAR said:

 

 

I would also add that at a minimum, everyone should at least open up a Roth IRA account, even if you only put a few $$ in there....this will allow you to potentially do the backdoor roth when you reach the income limit.

Given there is no telling what Congress will do with tax law I've always believed, if possible, a person would be well served to hedge and have assets in tax deferred (tIRA, 401k), tax free (Roth), and taxable.

It should also be noted that there is significant opportunity after retirement to move money from an traditional IRA to a Roth without a tax hit (depending on your income).  That money can also come from a 401k rolled to an IRA after retirement (early or not).  If you can keep income under limits (like 90k if married) you can move tax deferred money from an IRA to a Roth such that you never pay taxes on the money - free-free.  HSAs provide this opportunity, also.  You can squeeze out lots and lots of money with (very legal) tax avoidance techniques like these.

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11 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

So, I'm a financial idiot.  I make decent money and the good news is I'm on track to be completely debt free by the end of this year.  The bad news - I don't own a home and I have no clue what to do.  

Im saving 10% now and get the company match in to my 401k.  That's it - that's all I know about.  I need help.  So, should I just start on page 1 of this thread - other recommended resources?

Do I need a Roth thingy or a money market account?  Did I mention I'm a financial idiot?

Bogleheads.com

Group that talks about financial freedom through simple asset allocation of your retirement funds. 

Don't pay a financial advisor. You can do it on your own if your investing is simple, which it sounds like it will be. 

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2 hours ago, Dentist said:

2) Rund the work 401k up until you achieve the maximum from 3.5% match, and no more

I'm going to split up my replies to make it easier to read and reply.

So, if I only need to put in 7 to get 3.5 (max) then do that and move on to next step?  As mentioned, I do 10% today so I will drop it down to 7% - 3% raise!  You've already made me money!

to make sure I understand is the benefit of doing this diversification?

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2 hours ago, Dentist said:

3) then fund a roth for you and a wife if you have one  until the max of $5500 or 11K for 2 people.

Is that 11k per year?  Should be able to fully fund that next year - this year will be tough.  Is there an argument to be made to do this and complete the small debt payoff at the same time or just knock out the debt before I do this?

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2 hours ago, Dentist said:

4)  You may have an HSA at work, but are you putting the maximum contribution into it?  $3300 for individual,  $6500 for a family that's both on a high deductible plan

Yes, I put in the max by I also spend it (family of 6). What I'm hearing is that I'm doing good maxing it out but I shouldn't spend it but use it as a retirement fund?

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24 minutes ago, ex-ghost said:

Bogleheads.com

Group that talks about financial freedom through simple asset allocation of your retirement funds. 

Don't pay a financial advisor. You can do it on your own if your investing is simple, which it sounds like it will be. 

It will have to be simple - I'm an idiot

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We should talk about disability insurance....some experts would say it's even more important than life insurance. 

How much is it if your work doesn't offer it? Fairly cheap for an office warrior?

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2 hours ago, Dentist said:

Then and only then you can begin to think about a 529 plan... which means 98% of people should never do a 529

Ok, everything makes sense so far (and I should be able to do some or all of this) - however, which of those steps (401k, Roth and HSA) can be used to help junior pay for college?  Or do I tell him to pound sand like my folks did and get a loan?  Or tell him to pray really hard that Bernie wins and maybe he can get some financial assistance from Chet?

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31 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

I'm going to split up my replies to make it easier to read and reply.

So, if I only need to put in 7 to get 3.5 (max) then do that and move on to next step?  As mentioned, I do 10% today so I will drop it down to 7% - 3% raise!  You've already made me money!

to make sure I understand is the benefit of doing this diversification?

I think the idea was to put in 7% to get the match and use the rest to fund a Roth or traditional IRA.  The fees in a typical 401k are higher than what you can get with good ETFs in a Fidelity/Vanguard IRA, so if you are under the income caps shifting that money to an IRA vehicle makes sense.  It doesn't mean a 3% raise.  :P

If you're over the IRA limits I'd continue to stuff the 401k as much as you can and try to limit fees as best you can.  That 401k tax deferred space still has lots of worth, just a bit less than a Roth or tIRA.

 

14 minutes ago, eoMMan said:

We should talk about disability insurance....some experts would say it's even more important than life insurance. 

How much is it if your work doesn't offer it? Fairly cheap for an office warrior?

Only thing I know is that typical disability insurance only covers 60% or so of salary (which is generally ok since those insurance payouts are tax free, if memory serves).

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20 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

Ok, everything makes sense so far (and I should be able to do some or all of this) - however, which of those steps (401k, Roth and HSA) can be used to help junior pay for college?  Or do I tell him to pound sand like my folks did and get a loan?  Or tell him to pray really hard that Bernie wins and maybe he can get some financial assistance from Chet?

As a note I like 529s better than the previous comments more for the idea of a separate bucket than anything else.  I like looking at my kid's 529 and seeing I have something set aside just for that purpose.  Also, while lots of people have differing opinions on if or how much college to cover there is no doubt that if your kid ends up being saddled with more than about a year's worth of their anticipated salary in loans they're really behind the 8-ball before they even start.  If your kid has 150k in loans and will be a cardiologist he/she is golden; if they come out with 75k in loans with an art history degree they're ####ed.

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1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

Is that 18k just what I put in or is that my contribution and the company match?  

Just what you put in.  I learned that in this thread :banned:

And don't put in more than that or it will get taxed twice.  Once when you put it in, and again when you are making withdrawals in retirement.

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1 hour ago, AAABatteries said:

Is that 18k just what I put in or is that my contribution and the company match?  

You can contribute up to 18,000 of your money.  Not sure how high your salary is but try to make sure that you spread that 18,000 out so that you're contributing the entire year (as opposed to reaching the 18,000 lint before the year ends).  This will ensure you maximize company match.

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40 minutes ago, Sand said:

As a note I like 529s better than the previous comments more for the idea of a separate bucket than anything else.  I like looking at my kid's 529 and seeing I have something set aside just for that purpose.  Also, while lots of people have differing opinions on if or how much college to cover there is no doubt that if your kid ends up being saddled with more than about a year's worth of their anticipated salary in loans they're really behind the 8-ball before they even start.  If your kid has 150k in loans and will be a cardiologist he/she is golden; if they come out with 75k in loans with an art history degree they're ####ed.

Then be a good parent and tell them an art degree for 75k is likely worthless and to do something else.

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8 hours ago, matttyl said:

re:2008.

So, what would you have been diversified in during 2008 to have avoided losing your shirt?  On that chart, every asset class save 1 had a loss of at least 28%.  This chart shows the best performing asset that year was the money market earning less than 2%.

I don't want the post to come across as dickish, but even diversifying doesn't cure all.

Well the one asset was "bonds" (which is funny they didn't break that out like the stick side), so if you had good asset class diversification, you're portfolio wouldn't have been absolutely crushed.  If you were light on credit in your bond portfolio, you're probably getting 8%-10% returns, IIRC. 

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2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

Ok, everything makes sense so far (and I should be able to do some or all of this) - however, which of those steps (401k, Roth and HSA) can be used to help junior pay for college?  Or do I tell him to pound sand like my folks did and get a loan?  Or tell him to pray really hard that Bernie wins and maybe he can get some financial assistance from Chet?

General rule....make sure you have retirement planning completely covered before you touch kids college funds.  You can always get grants/loans for college, not the case for retirement.

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2 hours ago, AAABatteries said:

Ok, everything makes sense so far (and I should be able to do some or all of this) - however, which of those steps (401k, Roth and HSA) can be used to help junior pay for college?  Or do I tell him to pound sand like my folks did and get a loan?  Or tell him to pray really hard that Bernie wins and maybe he can get some financial assistance from Chet?

If Bernie wins then Chet will be providing financial assistance to thousands of people annually whether he likes it or not.  Notfair.com

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1 hour ago, Tiger Fan said:

General rule....make sure you have retirement planning completely covered before you touch kids college funds.  You can always get grants/loans for college, not the case for retirement.

Amen.

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2 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

So it seems some people out there are expect about 8% returns annually from here on out until retirement?  That honestly sounds insane to me with almost no chance of happening.

 Yeah, very low expectations of 8%, that is over-optimistic. I am HOPING for more, but planning for 4%. Inflation eats at the return %, too.

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14 minutes ago, Binky The Doormat said:

Where are people seeing/reading to make them expect 8%?

I think it was in the middle of the life insurance debate, and I will be damned if I am going to go back and read through that again.  It just confused me more.

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5 minutes ago, Walking Boot said:

I think 8% is the historical stock market average? 

I believe it is.............but does anyone actually "expect" that over the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years???

Remember when buying a house was a "great" investment?

Just seems like as time passes the things that were once the best of the best investments somehow have all sorts of extra fees and taxes placed on them. 

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7 hours ago, Dentist said:

1) get emergency fund to 6 mo.

2) Rund the work 401k up until you achieve the maximum from 3.5% match, and no more

3) then fund a roth for you and a wife if you have one  until the max of $5500 or 11K for 2 people.

4)  You may have an HSA at work, but are you putting the maximum contribution into it?  $3300 for individual,  $6500 for a family that's both on a high deductible plan

5) Then come back to the work 401k and fund until the allowable maximum of $18,000 unless you are over 50, in which case it's 24K.

You can work saving for a house down payment at any point you see fit in there.

Then and only then you can begin to think about a 529 plan... which means 98% of people should never do a 529

This is my basic plan for taking a 100k+ income and reducing it down to the point where you are barely above the poverty line.... but you'll minimize your taxes and should be able to retire early.

 

This is pretty good.  I disagree with maxing the Roth IRA over the 401k because that depends largely on age and situation, but overall you're gonna get to the same place in the end.  I like the power of compounding so I'd fund a Roth 401k before a Roth IRA if I were in my 20s, and that was an option where you worked.  Then gradually move that Roth contribution to a traditional if you can kind of estimate your tax rate in retirement.

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4 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

He did make it sounds like a no brainer though.......................:obc:

Agreed, if you have no brains whole life is for you!!!!

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4 minutes ago, Doctor Detroit said:

Agreed, if you have no brains whole life is for you!!!!

As I mentioned before, I read that Whole Life is the worst one to pick, but I am not really sure why.

Mr Detroit, can you please give me your best condensed version as to why it is so bad?

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2 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

As I mentioned before, I read that Whole Life is the worst one to pick, but I am not really sure why.

Mr Detroit, can you please give me your best condensed version as to why it is so bad?

Someone provided a good link earlier but fees, hidden fees, strange investment stacks, hundreds of pages of fine print, your money is illiquid, lagging returns, and in the end only the face value of the policy really matters.  Get term life for fraction of the cost, invest your money in stocks and bonds with low fee scales, don't take sales pitches.  If term life was so wonderful smart people I know would have it, yet none do.  Makes you think. 

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