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1 minute ago, stbugs said:

I haven’t paid cash for a car yet and not sure I ever will unless rates jump up. I did get one car for free and my oldest inherited his papa’s car, so that’s the closest. Timing should work well for my last two kids to get our high mileage cars that hopefully last them through college and first few years of working. That would be nice. No desire to buy my kids a new car but I see that all the time.

Yeah, that's not in the cards for mine unless they get scholarships and graduate college debt free with money left in their coverdell account. I've told my sophomore (4.7 gpa) that if he does that, I'll either buy him a car or help with his down payment on a house.

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49 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

That's impressive. We're significantly higher especially when you include maintenance (not to mention insurance and gas). Our current vehicles cost us $60k in purchase price.

You'll note I expressly failed to mention the cost of my wife's cars. :ninja:

46 minutes ago, stbugs said:

No desire to buy my kids a new car but I see that all the time.

Not only are mine getting used cars but if they end up with something over 150hp I've made a horrible mistake.  Boys and big engines are a bad combo.

45 minutes ago, stbugs said:

I don’t think I could do that unless you kept your cars for 10+ years.

Current one is 10 with years to go, I hope.  It does help that my last truck was bought for $500, driven for four years, then turned in for $4k under cash for clunkers.  :bowtie:

Edited by Sand
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2 hours ago, stbugs said:

I don’t think I could do that unless you kept your cars for 10+ years.

A 2010 honda civic with 150 thousand miles on it (still a decent car) is worth about 5k right now.  You can buy a brand new honda civic for like 20k out the door right now. 

Fast forward to 2030, rinse and repeat.  

You can make this even better buying a car that's 2-3 years old.  

It's not hard to drive halfway decent vehicles forever for a very reasonable price.  

Edited by ghostguy123
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1 hour ago, ConstruxBoy said:

Wife and I only buy new cars but we keep them 10+ years, get 5 year loans and stagger so we only have one car payment at a time. Kids will get a used car in 4 years or so. 

Similar thing here, but those repair bills can get hairy, especially after 100k miles.  I drive a 2011 Toyota Sequoia.  Has 115k miles on it.  Just spent $5k on repairs, not including tires.  And it will need tires come this fall.  

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9 minutes ago, ghostguy123 said:

A 2010 honda civic with 150 thousand miles on it (still a decent car) is worth about 5k right now.  You can buy a brand new honda civic for like 20k out the door right now. 

Fast forward to 2030, rinse and repeat.  

You can make this even better buying a car that's 2-3 years old.  

It's not hard to drive halfway decent vehicles forever for a very reasonable price.  

I love the Civic, it was the first car we bought as a married couple. Gave really serious consideration to the sport touring with manual transmission :wub:

But when I put my boys in, I looked back and it was almost clown car worthy. 

Maybe in 2033.

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4 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

I love the Civic, it was the first car we bought as a married couple. Gave really serious consideration to the sport touring with manual transmission :wub:

But when I put my boys in, I looked back and it was almost clown car worthy. 

Maybe in 2033.

Yeah, a Civic isn’t something I could even think about. We do a lot of driving vacations to the beach or FL or up north. I’ve got three boys from 13-19, not happening without a much bigger car. Still ways to spend a lot less. I’ve already stated that I’ve only bought 1 new car (on a great deal) since 2003.

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3 hours ago, stbugs said:

Yeah, a Civic isn’t something I could even think about. We do a lot of driving vacations to the beach or FL or up north. I’ve got three boys from 13-19, not happening without a much bigger car. Still ways to spend a lot less. I’ve already stated that I’ve only bought 1 new car (on a great deal) since 2003.

Rent an SUV or a Van for those.

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3 hours ago, stbugs said:

Yeah, a Civic isn’t something I could even think about. 

It's what I bought for my college kid.  Great gas mileage, cheap, reliable, small back seat (gotta do my responsible parent bit, for all the good that does).  And after looking at a number of cars, it's what he liked.

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8 hours ago, CR69 said:

I see this all the time (I'm a loan officer) with clients. People that make $100k plus (our median income is $50k, starter home is about $280k) and don't have any savings, don't contribute to retirement accounts and are just loaded with debt. 

I try to help them budget and put them on a 3-6 month plan but very few actually listen to me. 

Agreed. 20+ years of financial services experience with countless conversations about personal finance and seeing the entire picture of people's financial situation and how much you make does not mean how much wealth you have. 

I learned early on in banking to ignore prejudices about people. The old guy who you might have thought was homeless holding the door open for the the guy strolling in with a nice suit after parking his high end BMW and acting like he owned the bank could be worth 10 times more. I saw it over and over again. 

Countless examples of professionals and business owners bringing in $20K a month but spending $21K a month. 

Yes, how much income you bring in really helps or hinders but the main area of building wealth is more in about the spending. 

I also assist people with their credit scores. I don't know how many times people say "Yea, I am serious about getting it up" and I tell them exactly what to do. Check in a few months how things were going. "About the same" Well.... did you do what I told you to do? "No, not yet". So, instead of spinning my wheels, I put together an email to help them and send it and if they do it- great. If they don't, it is on them. There are two types of people with bad credit: those who didn't know or knew and life happened and they just need help getting there (minority) and those who have bad credit for a reason and no amount of help will help, they are looking for a magic wand to fix everything for them with no effort or money. (majority). 

 

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3 minutes ago, Sand said:

It's what I bought for my college kid.  Great gas mileage, cheap, reliable, small back seat (gotta do my responsible parent bit, for all the good that does).  And after looking at a number of cars, it's what he liked.

Yeah, definitely different for one of my son’s versus a family of 5.

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2 minutes ago, Chadstroma said:

I also assist people with their credit scores. I don't know how many times people say "Yea, I am serious about getting it up" and I tell them exactly what to do. Check in a few months how things were going. "About the same" Well.... did you do what I told you to do? "No, not yet". So, instead of spinning my wheels, I put together an email to help them and send it and if they do it- great. If they don't, it is on them. There are two types of people with bad credit: those who didn't know or knew and life happened and they just need help getting there (minority) and those who have bad credit for a reason and no amount of help will help, they are looking for a magic wand to fix everything for them with no effort or money. (majority). 

 

Yeah I’m always blown away when someone actually follows my advice and is then able to buy a home. I make sure to let them know how rare it is and that I’m proud of them. Like maybe 1-2% of the clients actually do it. 

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6 hours ago, CR69 said:

Yeah I’m always blown away when someone actually follows my advice and is then able to buy a home. I make sure to let them know how rare it is and that I’m proud of them. Like maybe 1-2% of the clients actually do it. 

I get a little better results but yes, the vast majority don't take action. Hell, a whole crap load don't even read the email I send. But the ones that do and I help them buy their first homes... those mean more to me than jist helping someone who just needed a good rate get done. 

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17 hours ago, ghostguy123 said:

Rent an SUV or a Van for those.

I'm trying to implant the idea of my wife taking the RAV4, I get a Civic, and we can rent a van for trips. We won't be buying anything for a few years at least so conditions will change. Ideally our oldest 3 will be out of HS, leaving one in HS and one in middle School.  My wife envisions vacationing with them still, which I'm fine with but if they have families they can drive separately or we can rent a bus.

Edited by -OZ-
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24 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

I'll admit, this surprised me:

https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/average-american-debt#average-american-debt-by-type-of-debt

The average mortgage balance is $35,660? I assumed it would be much higher.

40-49yo's have the most debt which isn't surprising. 

Seems off. Averages can be misleading. Is the denominator total people in that age group regardless of if they have a mortgage? 

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4 minutes ago, bcnfinance said:

Seems off. Averages can be misleading. Is the denominator total people in that age group regardless of if they have a mortgage? 

Yep.

It's worth noting that this calculation spreads the debt load over the whole population, including those that don't have that type of debt. Debt per person may be higher if only calculated based on the population with that type of debt.

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1 hour ago, bcnfinance said:

Seems off. Averages can be misleading. Is the denominator total people in that age group regardless of if they have a mortgage? 

Yeah, it seems way off. Average credit card debt is about $6k based on what I just looked up. Did they just divide by population? Family of 5 in a house with a $150k mortgage is a $30k average? Renters counted as mortgage free, etc.?

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4 hours ago, -OZ- said:

I'm trying to implant the idea of my wife taking the RAV4, I get a Civic, and we can rent a van for trips. We won't be buying anything for a few years at least so conditions will change. Ideally our oldest 3 will be out of HS, leaving one in HS and one in middle School.  My wife envisions vacationing with them still, which I'm fine with but if they have families they can drive separately or we can rent a bus.

Thinking through this now. I drive a 2010 Elantra with 140K miles that I bought used, it’s been paid off for 4 years. We also have a 2012 Frontier truck that we bought from the girlfriend’s parents. 

My daughter takes her drivers test this week.  She’ll take my car, and my plan was to buy a used 4Runner, Tourag, Pilot, Highlander, something like that. Basically looking for a comfortable “road trip car” that can go off road a little to some trail heads and haul a small trailer (that we haven’t bought yet).  And in fact we have a 10-day road trip coming up in a couple of weeks. But I would have to finance the car if I don’t want to wipe out my savings, and with both of us working from home there is always a car available to drive. So I’m considering just renting an suv for the road trip, which I did once before for a 10 day trip to CO 


I know what the “correct” financial decision is, but I’m also 47 and have basically never treated myself by buying the car I really want. 

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1 hour ago, SFBayDuck said:

Thinking through this now. I drive a 2010 Elantra with 140K miles that I bought used, it’s been paid off for 4 years. We also have a 2012 Frontier truck that we bought from the girlfriend’s parents. 

My daughter takes her drivers test this week.  She’ll take my car, and my plan was to buy a used 4Runner, Tourag, Pilot, Highlander, something like that. Basically looking for a comfortable “road trip car” that can go off road a little to some trail heads and haul a small trailer (that we haven’t bought yet).  And in fact we have a 10-day road trip coming up in a couple of weeks. But I would have to finance the car if I don’t want to wipe out my savings, and with both of us working from home there is always a car available to drive. So I’m considering just renting an suv for the road trip, which I did once before for a 10 day trip to CO 


I know what the “correct” financial decision is, but I’m also 47 and have basically never treated myself by buying the car I really want. 

Do not buy a Tourag.

 

My father in law is a retired VW mechanic. Trust me on this one.

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3 hours ago, stbugs said:

Yeah, it seems way off. Average credit card debt is about $6k based on what I just looked up. Did they just divide by population? Family of 5 in a house with a $150k mortgage is a $30k average? Renters counted as mortgage free, etc.?

If that's the case it makes sense but is a really bad study. 

I can understand if they were to divide the mortgage between the adults on the mortgage (our $300k mortgage would be $150k each) but not if they include the kids ($300k / 7 people in the house = $43k each).

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1 hour ago, SFBayDuck said:

Thinking through this now. I drive a 2010 Elantra with 140K miles that I bought used, it’s been paid off for 4 years. We also have a 2012 Frontier truck that we bought from the girlfriend’s parents. 

My daughter takes her drivers test this week.  She’ll take my car, and my plan was to buy a used 4Runner, Tourag, Pilot, Highlander, something like that. Basically looking for a comfortable “road trip car” that can go off road a little to some trail heads and haul a small trailer (that we haven’t bought yet).  And in fact we have a 10-day road trip coming up in a couple of weeks. But I would have to finance the car if I don’t want to wipe out my savings, and with both of us working from home there is always a car available to drive. So I’m considering just renting an suv for the road trip, which I did once before for a 10 day trip to CO 


I know what the “correct” financial decision is, but I’m also 47 and have basically never treated myself by buying the car I really want

Pretty much the same here. I really liked our Civic, Highlander and now the RAV4 but if I could have had any vehicle I wanted and cost wasn't a factor, it wouldn't have been those.  But, I like the looks of an extra $25k in my brokerage account along with the RAV4 more than I would the Range Rover Evoque.

Honestly I didn't even look at vehicles over $25k.

Edited by -OZ-
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I'll ask the question here just to sound it out.

My career could take one of the following trajectories soon 

1. Stay where I am, eventually this will lead to a position making $20k more.

2. Take a different position doing something I've avoided most of my career, possibly make $30k more eventually. More likely similar salary as #1 but more opportunities.

3. Take a different position making more than current but limited to $10-15k more than current. This job is very much in my wheelhouse and there's a lot I'd like to do with it. Eventually (like maybe 10 years from now) use it to transition to part time work which I'd truly enjoy. Also possibly be able to work in the same field in our retirement area. (Estate and financial planning)

If it matters, we're doing okay now.

Edited by -OZ-
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25 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

If that's the case it makes sense but is a really bad study. 

I can understand if they were to divide the mortgage between the adults on the mortgage (our $300k mortgage would be $150k each) but not if they include the kids ($300k / 7 people in the house = $43k each).

Plus it includes all of us renters - currently three adults in my household (ok two adults and a 22-year old slacker) with zero mortgage dollars between us. 

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

I'll ask the question here just to sound it out.

My career could take one of the following trajectories soon 

1. Stay where I am, eventually this will lead to a position making $20k more.

2. Take a different position doing something I've avoided most of my career, possibly make $30k more eventually. More likely similar salary as #1 but more opportunities.

3. Take a different position making more than current but limited to $10-15k more than current. This job is very much in my wheelhouse and there's a lot I'd like to do with it. Eventually (like maybe 10 years from now) use it to transition to part time work which I'd truly enjoy. Also possibly be able to work in the same field in our retirement area. (Estate and financial planning)

If it matters, we're doing okay now.

It’s nice to have options!  I’m not feeling 2, you don’t need the extra money and it doesn’t sound like enjoyable work for you.  I like 3 best because of the ability to transition into a side hustle and I sense a little excitement from you with the opportunity. 

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1 hour ago, -OZ- said:

I'll ask the question here just to sound it out.

My career could take one of the following trajectories soon 

1. Stay where I am, eventually this will lead to a position making $20k more.

2. Take a different position doing something I've avoided most of my career, possibly make $30k more eventually. More likely similar salary as #1 but more opportunities.

3. Take a different position making more than current but limited to $10-15k more than current. This job is very much in my wheelhouse and there's a lot I'd like to do with it. Eventually (like maybe 10 years from now) use it to transition to part time work which I'd truly enjoy. Also possibly be able to work in the same field in our retirement area. (Estate and financial planning)

If it matters, we're doing okay now.

2. Avoiding because you don't like it or because you fearful of new thing or? 

3. Sounds like you like it and though may be limited long term in more could transition to part time semi retirer when ready. 

I like that. Life isn't long enough to do work you don't want to do just because of more money. 

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1 hour ago, Chadstroma said:

2. Avoiding because you don't like it or because you fearful of new thing or? 

3. Sounds like you like it and though may be limited long term in more could transition to part time semi retirer when ready. 

I like that. Life isn't long enough to do work you don't want to do just because of more money. 

2 - was avoiding while active duty because it wasn't what I wanted to do, wasn't interesting to me. Now that I'm a civilian, it is interesting but I haven't done it before (contract law). But it is the business side of the military and could be very interesting. Just not sure.

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On 8/21/2020 at 8:33 AM, -OZ- said:

Yep. Cars can crush you if you let them but you can be smart about it.

Our last few vehicle purchases:

2019 paid cash for a 2018 used RAV4 - "my" vehicle but the wife has been driving it more than me lately. bought with 30k miles, now has slightly over 40k

2011 paid cash for a 2011 Honda Odyssey - wife's / family use. Bought new, now has 135k miles

2009 paid cash for a used 2007 Highlander. Bought with 30k miles, now has 166k. Oldest son uses it, we'll keep passing it on to the next driver. Hopefully it makes it to our 6yo.

Last vehicle we financed was a 05 Dodge Grand caravan, which was the worst vehicle we ever bought.

My vehicle purchases

1998 bought mazda b2500 pickup.  New.  Vehicle was fine, but decision was dumb.  Paid 12k cash.

2009 bought a 2006 honda accord as pickup wasn't safe for a baby.  Still drive it.  Has 200k miles.  Biggest problem is cracked seats.  Paid 15k cash.

2012 bought a 2009 acura tl for the wife.  Figured it would be her car for a decade until...some idiot knocked her up with twins. She previously had a ford focus before marriage...talk about a piece of junk.  Paid 14k cash.

2015...sold acura for 2011 dodge durango.  Its been okay, but reliability hasn't been great.  It's got 200k miles on it and i doubt it will last much longer.  Paid 18k with 5 years at 2% as we hadn't saved up car purchase fund from 2012 purchase and had a lot of expenses to get ready for twins.  Oh, and we bought a house (foreclosure at 65% market value).  Paid off loan in 3 years.  

202x...we take a lot of road trips.  I'm 6'5" and with three kids (11,5,5) a larger vehicle is necessary.  Don't want a suburban size large, so will probably go with another large suv (wife refuses to drive minivan and i like to have sex with her) and use a cargo trailer and roof rack for luggage/etc.

 

Edited by rascal
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On 8/22/2020 at 3:27 PM, SFBayDuck said:

Thinking through this now. I drive a 2010 Elantra with 140K miles that I bought used, it’s been paid off for 4 years. We also have a 2012 Frontier truck that we bought from the girlfriend’s parents. 

My daughter takes her drivers test this week.  She’ll take my car, and my plan was to buy a used 4Runner, Tourag, Pilot, Highlander, something like that. Basically looking for a comfortable “road trip car” that can go off road a little to some trail heads and haul a small trailer (that we haven’t bought yet).  And in fact we have a 10-day road trip coming up in a couple of weeks. But I would have to finance the car if I don’t want to wipe out my savings, and with both of us working from home there is always a car available to drive. So I’m considering just renting an suv for the road trip, which I did once before for a 10 day trip to CO 


I know what the “correct” financial decision is, but I’m also 47 and have basically never treated myself by buying the car I really want. 

Bought my "realistic dream" car, an Audi A6 3.0 Quattro at 45 years old. Sometimes you have to play the midlife crisis card. Better than a 25 year old mistress, right?

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22 hours ago, -OZ- said:

I'll ask the question here just to sound it out.

My career could take one of the following trajectories soon 

1. Stay where I am, eventually this will lead to a position making $20k more.

2. Take a different position doing something I've avoided most of my career, possibly make $30k more eventually. More likely similar salary as #1 but more opportunities.

3. Take a different position making more than current but limited to $10-15k more than current. This job is very much in my wheelhouse and there's a lot I'd like to do with it. Eventually (like maybe 10 years from now) use it to transition to part time work which I'd truly enjoy. Also possibly be able to work in the same field in our retirement area. (Estate and financial planning)

If it matters, we're doing okay now.

If you're doing OK financially, take the more challenging/passionate choice, which seems like #3. 

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On 8/16/2020 at 1:31 PM, The Z Machine said:

Update on the guy from Northwestern Mutual who wants to be my financial advisor.  Yes, he is acting as a fiduciary in this situation.  He gets paid by the commission on the life insurance and he wants 1% of the account value every year to manage the combined life insurance, brokerage, and retirement accounts. 

He worked up a pretty comprehensive assessment of where I am now and a plan to improve income available in retirement. 

I'll post more details later. 

A 1% fee can be hugely impactful over time. The vast majority of people are going to come ahead by investing in a mix of low-cost index funds than paying an FA.

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On 8/23/2020 at 1:01 PM, ConstruxBoy said:
On 8/22/2020 at 12:27 PM, SFBayDuck said:

Thinking through this now. I drive a 2010 Elantra with 140K miles that I bought used, it’s been paid off for 4 years. We also have a 2012 Frontier truck that we bought from the girlfriend’s parents. 

My daughter takes her drivers test this week.  She’ll take my car, and my plan was to buy a used 4Runner, Tourag, Pilot, Highlander, something like that. Basically looking for a comfortable “road trip car” that can go off road a little to some trail heads and haul a small trailer (that we haven’t bought yet).  And in fact we have a 10-day road trip coming up in a couple of weeks. But I would have to finance the car if I don’t want to wipe out my savings, and with both of us working from home there is always a car available to drive. So I’m considering just renting an suv for the road trip, which I did once before for a 10 day trip to CO 


I know what the “correct” financial decision is, but I’m also 47 and have basically never treated myself by buying the car I really want. 

Bought my "realistic dream" car, an Audi A6 3.0 Quattro at 45 years old. Sometimes you have to play the midlife crisis card. Better than a 25 year old mistress, right?

Did the "right thing" and rented a car for our upcoming road trip.  Still going to keep looking at SUVs, but didn't want to rush into making a decision in the next two weeks.  

It's a constant battle to do the "right thing" financially.  Back when I was married we were the poster children for the mortgage crisis - bought a place with a loan we shouldn't have ever been given and eventually wouldn't be able to afford.  Eight years later I was divorced and living in a crappy apartment, with a foreclosure and bankruptcy on my credit report.  But I've battled back.  We drive old cars, max out 401Ks and HSAs, have worked hard to build up a little emergency fund, have zero debt, and my credit score is north of 800.  Meanwhile my ex and her family take multiple vacations per year, get new cars every few years, just stretched to buy a house, etc.  And I make more money than them.  My daughter gets to go on those vacations while we rarely end up taking her anywhere.  And I'll be the one helping out where I can with her college costs starting next fall.  I do my best to not feel bitter by truly believing that the adult her will appreciate the sacrifices I made.  And after all these are all my choices, no one else's.

The plan is to move to a more affordable area in the next couple of years, which should provide some additional financial flexibility and the ability to treat myself here and there while still aggressively saving for what I hope to be a relatively early retirement.  I just keep telling myself to stay the course, although I hope to start veering off every once in awhile for some fun!

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Grandaughter's first birthday last week so gifted $5K to start a 529 for her.  That was 18 months after wedding #1 (groom side, not over the top but still decent sum). Then daughter confirms wedding day today for October 2021 (bigger sum for sure).  Venue contract signed today.  Youngest daughter right on her heels.  May be same year.  Figure those weddings and a few 529's for grandkids and I'm close to being done, right? 

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  • 4 weeks later...

My brother is looking to buy a house in the next 6 months if he can get a down payment. 

He was told he can take a withdrawal from his 401k for this. I assume there is a penalty, but not my concern. My question is more general. If you think the market is going to drop in the next 6 months, is it ever a good idea to make a sizable 401k withdrawal? 

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1 hour ago, Cjw_55106 said:

My brother is looking to buy a house in the next 6 months if he can get a down payment. 

He was told he can take a withdrawal from his 401k for this. I assume there is a penalty, but not my concern. My question is more general. If you think the market is going to drop in the next 6 months, is it ever a good idea to make a sizable 401k withdrawal? 

Avoid

If he had the ability to accurately predict when the market would drop, he should be taking all available money and short the market.

Here's all you need to know on the subject - https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/111815/can-401k-be-used-house-down-payment.asp

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1 hour ago, Cjw_55106 said:

My brother is looking to buy a house in the next 6 months if he can get a down payment. 

He was told he can take a withdrawal from his 401k for this. I assume there is a penalty, but not my concern. My question is more general. If you think the market is going to drop in the next 6 months, is it ever a good idea to make a sizable 401k withdrawal? 

I realize this is not what you are asking but that is usually a really bad idea.  He would face income tax plus an additional 10% penalty on the 401k distribution.  Could easily be 32% or higher effective tax and that doesn't include state.

However, if he can justify a 2020 distribution as being COVID related he may avoid the penalty and spread the tax over 3 years.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/coronavirus-related-relief-for-retirement-plans-and-iras-questions-and-answers

 

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2 hours ago, Cjw_55106 said:

My brother is looking to buy a house in the next 6 months if he can get a down payment. 

He was told he can take a withdrawal from his 401k for this. I assume there is a penalty, but not my concern. My question is more general. If you think the market is going to drop in the next 6 months, is it ever a good idea to make a sizable 401k withdrawal? 

Does his company offer 401k loans? There’s no tax issue and while I wouldn’t recommend not letting your 401k money do what it’s supposed to do the loan is a better way to get money now if you have the means to pay it back. If no to having the ability to pay that loan back then buying a house is a bad idea. If it’s a matter of needing the money to get a much better loan then it might be worth it.

A 401k is similar to a car loan for whatever the amount is you take out. I think it’s limited to something like $50k. The interest rate should also be real low in today’s market but it’s likely a 5 year loan. The good part is the interest is what you pay to yourself. Your entire payment each month/pay period goes into your 401k so at least you are putting it all back in. If the stock market tanks then you come out ahead and if it jumps you’ll lose out on the gains of what you haven’t paid back. One other potential gotcha is that if you leave that company, you either pay the remainder back or get hit with taxes and penalty. That obviously lessens with each payment so if you leave a company 3 years into a 5 year loan you have let’s say 40% left so not as big a whack and at that point maybe enough savings to just put the money back in with no taxes/penalty.

Anyway, I’d look into a loan so you aren’t getting taxed with a potential 10% penalty.

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Been a while, but I do recall one of the permitted withdrawals without a 10% penalty is up to 10K for a first time home buyer. You still pay income tax on the withdrawal though.

Even with things tightening up due to COVID, still should be possible to get home loans with very low to no down payment options.

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1 hour ago, wilked said:

If you gotta Raif the 401k to come up with the down payment...you can’t afford it 

I have no idea what his personal finances are, but I’m not sure I totally agree with this. If he’s currently paying $2200 a month for rent but is not able to save $20-$30,000 for a down payment, I wouldn’t say that automatically means he can’t afford a house where his payment might be 1800 a month. 

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