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You did not say he might be a bye in replacement, you said he was essentially a must-start this week. Yes he is on a great team but he is very far down the food chain. I would not start him over a player who has proven he can put up points this year, such as D. Moore. I wouldn't start him over Addai either. I am starting Lynch over Ingram in one league, and I will be starting Benson (if he isn't suspended) over Ingram in another.

Marshawn Lynch who has less carries, less yards, less yards per carry and is playing on a team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL vs a guy who is getting the ball more and producing more, not to mention is much more talented, on one of the best offenses in the NFL? I don't see a single reason why anyone should ever play Lynch over Ingram. He might score more this week but there is no evidence there to base this decision on
Lynch is winning the category that matters, and that is fantasy points (PPR but you are excluding receiving yards too). He also has a much better outlook the remainder of the year.
how does he have a better outlook? Scott Chandler and Doug Baldwin have more points so far as well, you start them? Yes Lynch has 7 recs to Ingrams 4 but I think it is a bit hyperbolic to come in here with arguments like this, it's obvious you have something personal against Ingram.
Not just 7 receptions to 4, but 50 yards to ZERO. Also, Seattle, despite being a terrible team, is starting to produce better. I also think (but could be wrong) that Seattle has an injured offensive lineman coming back soon that should help. On the other hand, New Orleans already has 3 RB's, with Ingram being the worst, and the possibility of Ivory coming back and taking even more of the pie.EDIT: In before all Ingram apologists claim defenses were gunning for Ingram receptions.
so Marshawn's receiving yardage in the first four games is enough to outweigh the fact that he gets less carries on a much worse team and is doing less with them?
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You did not say he might be a bye in replacement, you said he was essentially a must-start this week. Yes he is on a great team but he is very far down the food chain. I would not start him over a player who has proven he can put up points this year, such as D. Moore. I wouldn't start him over Addai either. I am starting Lynch over Ingram in one league, and I will be starting Benson (if he isn't suspended) over Ingram in another.

Marshawn Lynch who has less carries, less yards, less yards per carry and is playing on a team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL vs a guy who is getting the ball more and producing more, not to mention is much more talented, on one of the best offenses in the NFL? I don't see a single reason why anyone should ever play Lynch over Ingram. He might score more this week but there is no evidence there to base this decision on
Lynch is winning the category that matters, and that is fantasy points (PPR but you are excluding receiving yards too). He also has a much better outlook the remainder of the year.
how does he have a better outlook? Scott Chandler and Doug Baldwin have more points so far as well, you start them? Yes Lynch has 7 recs to Ingrams 4 but I think it is a bit hyperbolic to come in here with arguments like this, it's obvious you have something personal against Ingram.
Not just 7 receptions to 4, but 50 yards to ZERO. Also, Seattle, despite being a terrible team, is starting to produce better. I also think (but could be wrong) that Seattle has an injured offensive lineman coming back soon that should help. On the other hand, New Orleans already has 3 RB's, with Ingram being the worst, and the possibility of Ivory coming back and taking even more of the pie.EDIT: In before all Ingram apologists claim defenses were gunning for Ingram receptions.
so Marshawn's receiving yardage in the first four games is enough to outweigh the fact that he gets less carries on a much worse team and is doing less with them?
lol @ the fact that the Ingram fanbois have been reduced to defending his value compared to Lynch and Torrain....but he's not a bust.
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You did not say he might be a bye in replacement, you said he was essentially a must-start this week. Yes he is on a great team but he is very far down the food chain. I would not start him over a player who has proven he can put up points this year, such as D. Moore. I wouldn't start him over Addai either. I am starting Lynch over Ingram in one league, and I will be starting Benson (if he isn't suspended) over Ingram in another.

Marshawn Lynch who has less carries, less yards, less yards per carry and is playing on a team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL vs a guy who is getting the ball more and producing more, not to mention is much more talented, on one of the best offenses in the NFL? I don't see a single reason why anyone should ever play Lynch over Ingram. He might score more this week but there is no evidence there to base this decision on
Lynch is winning the category that matters, and that is fantasy points (PPR but you are excluding receiving yards too). He also has a much better outlook the remainder of the year.
how does he have a better outlook? Scott Chandler and Doug Baldwin have more points so far as well, you start them? Yes Lynch has 7 recs to Ingrams 4 but I think it is a bit hyperbolic to come in here with arguments like this, it's obvious you have something personal against Ingram.
Not just 7 receptions to 4, but 50 yards to ZERO. Also, Seattle, despite being a terrible team, is starting to produce better. I also think (but could be wrong) that Seattle has an injured offensive lineman coming back soon that should help. On the other hand, New Orleans already has 3 RB's, with Ingram being the worst, and the possibility of Ivory coming back and taking even more of the pie.EDIT: In before all Ingram apologists claim defenses were gunning for Ingram receptions.
so Marshawn's receiving yardage in the first four games is enough to outweigh the fact that he gets less carries on a much worse team and is doing less with them?
Not really, Lynch is getting similar carries, but is the primary back, on a worse team that is starting to find some consistency, compared to being a complete after-thought on a good team whose situation is not going to improve.Remember Lynch is better than Ingram in the stat that matters: Fantasy points. Edited by GreenNGold
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You did not say he might be a bye in replacement, you said he was essentially a must-start this week. Yes he is on a great team but he is very far down the food chain. I would not start him over a player who has proven he can put up points this year, such as D. Moore. I wouldn't start him over Addai either. I am starting Lynch over Ingram in one league, and I will be starting Benson (if he isn't suspended) over Ingram in another.

Marshawn Lynch who has less carries, less yards, less yards per carry and is playing on a team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL vs a guy who is getting the ball more and producing more, not to mention is much more talented, on one of the best offenses in the NFL? I don't see a single reason why anyone should ever play Lynch over Ingram. He might score more this week but there is no evidence there to base this decision on
Lynch is winning the category that matters, and that is fantasy points (PPR but you are excluding receiving yards too). He also has a much better outlook the remainder of the year.
how does he have a better outlook? Scott Chandler and Doug Baldwin have more points so far as well, you start them? Yes Lynch has 7 recs to Ingrams 4 but I think it is a bit hyperbolic to come in here with arguments like this, it's obvious you have something personal against Ingram.
Not just 7 receptions to 4, but 50 yards to ZERO. Also, Seattle, despite being a terrible team, is starting to produce better. I also think (but could be wrong) that Seattle has an injured offensive lineman coming back soon that should help. On the other hand, New Orleans already has 3 RB's, with Ingram being the worst, and the possibility of Ivory coming back and taking even more of the pie.EDIT: In before all Ingram apologists claim defenses were gunning for Ingram receptions.
so Marshawn's receiving yardage in the first four games is enough to outweigh the fact that he gets less carries on a much worse team and is doing less with them?
Not really, Lynch is getting similar carries, but is the primary back, on a worse team that is starting to find some consistency, compared to being a complete after-thought on a good team whose situation is not going to improve.Remember Lynch is better than Ingram in the stat that matters: Fantasy points.
primary back and complete after-thought are just words. I like to look and see who is actually getting more opportunities. Lynch, whose team is worse without a doubt, probably one of the worst offenses in the league, is getting 11.5 carries a game and Ingram is getting 13.2 on one of the top 5 offenses in the league. So I don't understand why you call the one getting 2 less carries a primary back and the one getting more carries a complete after-thought? Maybe you think these numbers will change significantly?
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and is the stat that matters going forward really fantasy points? no chance, otherwise everyone would be tripping over themselves to get Garcon at WR and Chandler at TE. I mean, I can see the argument against Ingram but yours is just too exaggerated

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Is Thomas a hold while we see if Ingram is a bust?

Thomas and Ingram both have similar value this year, and that is close to none.
Would you agree that Thomas is the better back, at the moment, and if push come to shove NOR would choose him over Ingram; or do you feel that Ingram has a long leash because NOR is winning and they are letting Ingram develop? I do agree with you that as NOR is using them now Thomas and Ingram have very little value.
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Ingram's situational statshttp://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/24815/situationalHes had 8 carries on 3rd or 4th and < 3 yds. On those 8 carries he has 21 yds. Take those totals out of his season totals and he has 45 carries for 163 yds for a 3.6 YPC.EXCUSE #451 - REJECTED

pretty elite ownage here.
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You did not say he might be a bye in replacement, you said he was essentially a must-start this week. Yes he is on a great team but he is very far down the food chain. I would not start him over a player who has proven he can put up points this year, such as D. Moore. I wouldn't start him over Addai either. I am starting Lynch over Ingram in one league, and I will be starting Benson (if he isn't suspended) over Ingram in another.

Marshawn Lynch who has less carries, less yards, less yards per carry and is playing on a team with one of the worst offenses in the NFL vs a guy who is getting the ball more and producing more, not to mention is much more talented, on one of the best offenses in the NFL? I don't see a single reason why anyone should ever play Lynch over Ingram. He might score more this week but there is no evidence there to base this decision on
Lynch is winning the category that matters, and that is fantasy points (PPR but you are excluding receiving yards too). He also has a much better outlook the remainder of the year.
how does he have a better outlook? Scott Chandler and Doug Baldwin have more points so far as well, you start them? Yes Lynch has 7 recs to Ingrams 4 but I think it is a bit hyperbolic to come in here with arguments like this, it's obvious you have something personal against Ingram.
Not just 7 receptions to 4, but 50 yards to ZERO. Also, Seattle, despite being a terrible team, is starting to produce better. I also think (but could be wrong) that Seattle has an injured offensive lineman coming back soon that should help. On the other hand, New Orleans already has 3 RB's, with Ingram being the worst, and the possibility of Ivory coming back and taking even more of the pie.EDIT: In before all Ingram apologists claim defenses were gunning for Ingram receptions.
I might still be overly optimistic on Ingram's prospects over the 2nd half of the year, but at this point, if you think its better to have Marshawn you my friend are ####### insane. Edited by Kenny Powers
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I love how people in this thread are harping on his YPC. He's had many short-yardage attempts (yes, that mostly failed) that have lowered his YPC. You know, attempts where the defense KNOWS he's attempting to get that one single yard. That will kill any RB's average YPC.

some guy earlier said hes had one carry inside the 5 yd line. 1 <> many. hope that helps
3rd & 1 doesnt have to be inside the 5 yard line
Even if you remove his 3rd and 4th down with 2 yards or less attempts he is at 3.5 YPC. That reasoning doesn't hold up. He has been bad relative to his backfield counterparts.
How could his YPC be the same if you remove those attempts? That doesn't make sense.
:lmao: simple math down?
Haha possibly. I just thought I had already read somewhere that when you remove his numerous failed short-yardage attempts (where he would presumably get a yard or less per carry), his YPC was respectable. I'll try to find it, as I don't feel like doing the math myself. But I could absolutely be wrong. Just seemed unlikely to me that his YPC would stay exactly the same when you remove all of his "worst-situation" attempts which presumably would have netted him the least yardage.
Don't bother wasting your time, the numbers are a fact, no article can dispute that and the Ingram YPC myth has been debunked.His poor YPC has nothing to do with being put into obvious running situations like his backers claim.Also his combine 10 yard split time being incredible is also a myth, give his agent credit for that hogwash the media ran with.
He was at 4.5 YPC in the first half on Sunday. When they were using him in a normal situation. When they started trying to run the clock out it was clear he was getting the ball, the D adjusted and his YPC dipped. Do you care to look up those numbers?
his ypc in first hal of games is 3.6, in the second half is 3.4. yet another myth DEBUNKED
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He was at 4.5 YPC in the first half on Sunday. When they were using him in a normal situation. When they started trying to run the clock out it was clear he was getting the ball, the D adjusted and his YPC dipped. Do you care to look up those numbers?

:lmao:He had FOUR carries in the first half. FOUR. Not exactly an impressive sample size. And one of the biggest arguments Ingram supporters have made from the very beginning was that he was such an awesome power back that would rack up tons of yards in second halves of games once the Saints had a lead and the defense was tired. Now, those same people are making excuses and saying that it's not fair to evaluate Ingram's performance because teams were expecting him to run in that situation. So far, this is what we seem to know:1) A large part of Ingram's value for this year was tied up in the idea that he'd get a ton of goaline carries and rack up a bunch of TDs. So far, he has ONE goal line carry and he failed. He has also failed on all but two of his other short yardage carries.2) Ingram was supposed to come into games late and rack up tons of yardage after the defense was worn down. The truth is that Ingram has struggled really badly in the second half of games. On obvious rushing downs and situations, his YPC and success rate drops even further. Now, those were the arguments for his EARLY success. The argument then was that as the season went on and Ingram showed how much better he was than all the other RBs on the team, that he would get more and more carries and be THE guy in N.O. But if he can't even do the things he's supposed to be good at, then he's never going to get the chance to carry the ball more in situations where other RBs already have the clear advantage over him. Sproles is CLEARLY better in passing situations. Thomas is much better at picking up the blitz right now and getting tough yardage. I know the Saints WANT Ingram to succeed, but ultimately it comes down to who wins games for them. And right now, Sproles and Thomas are winning games for them. Ingram is not.
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Couple of things

1) When Ingram is in the game, opponents know it's going to be a running play, and they can stack the line. Payton needs to get Ingram catching some passes out of the backfield to keep the defense guessing.

2) Sproles is going nowhere. That guy is flat out perfect for what NO wants to do.

So even if NO adjusts to point 1, Sproles is going to get most of the RB receptions which help RB fantasy numbers. Upside for Ingram is limited. So for Ingram it will all come down to TDs....and he will be a decent fantasy play or bust player every week.

He's an OK RB3 or a good RB4. If you drafted him as a RB2, he's definitely a bust and I don't see it changing unless Sproles or Thomas gets hurt.

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Couple of things1) When Ingram is in the game, opponents know it's going to be a running play, and they can stack the line. Payton needs to get Ingram catching some passes out of the backfield to keep the defense guessing.2) Sproles is going nowhere. That guy is flat out perfect for what NO wants to do. So even if NO adjusts to point 1, Sproles is going to get most of the RB receptions which help RB fantasy numbers. Upside for Ingram is limited. So for Ingram it will all come down to TDs....and he will be a decent fantasy play or bust player every week. He's an OK RB3 or a good RB4. If you drafted him as a RB2, he's definitely a bust and I don't see it changing unless Sproles or Thomas gets hurt.

The problem is he needs to be better at pass pro and the audible adjustments that go with it. Why risk your franchise in these situations when you have a RB in your stable whose skill set is more suitable? I do think Ingram is much better than has performance has shown, but the offense is limited in what they can run when he is in the game. Once they are comfortable with him protecting Brees, we will see what he can do when the defense has to respect the pass. Right now I have him as my RB5 in a start 2 no flex league and I am perfectly content to sit on him in hope of getting 4-6 games of good production down the stretch. My only regret is drafting him (5-6 turn)as my initial plan was to trade for him when if/when we got to this point. I think I could have gotten him at a much cheaper price.
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Couple of things

1) When Ingram is in the game, opponents know it's going to be a running play, and they can stack the line. Payton needs to get Ingram catching some passes out of the backfield to keep the defense guessing.

2) Sproles is going nowhere. That guy is flat out perfect for what NO wants to do.

So even if NO adjusts to point 1, Sproles is going to get most of the RB receptions which help RB fantasy numbers. Upside for Ingram is limited. So for Ingram it will all come down to TDs....and he will be a decent fantasy play or bust player every week.

He's an OK RB3 or a good RB4. If you drafted him as a RB2, he's definitely a bust and I don't see it changing unless Sproles or Thomas gets hurt.

Dynasty owners need to take heed of the bolded. Sproles will be in NO for at least a few more years. Ingram is a good football player, but he is a fantasy bust.
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Guest Luke Skywalker

I can't believe I've read all 19 pages of this.

Bottom line, and I would've said all of these things before Ingram even put on a Saints uniform:

A. Sean Payton doesn't give a crap about your fantasy team.

B. If you drafted Ingram (or any other Saints back) to be a stud in a redraft league, you're a bad fantasy footballer.

C. Ingram is actually doing much more for the team than shows up in his numbers and will be a stud once he learns pass pro and routes in the Saints' complicated offense.

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I can't believe I've read all 19 pages of this.

Bottom line, and I would've said all of these things before Ingram even put on a Saints uniform:

A. Sean Payton doesn't give a crap about your fantasy team.

B. If you drafted Ingram (or any other Saints back) to be a stud in a redraft league, you're a bad fantasy footballer.

C. Ingram is actually doing much more for the team than shows up in his numbers and will be a stud once he learns pass pro and routes in the Saints' complicated offense.

I'm not sure what you consider a stud but Sproles is RB7 through 4 games in ppr. So, you can eliminate B from your list.
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So far, this is what we seem to know:

1) A large part of Ingram's value for this year was tied up in the idea that he'd get a ton of goaline carries and rack up a bunch of TDs. So far, he has ONE goal line carry and he failed. He has also failed on all but two of his other short yardage carries.

"Mark Ingram has 10 carries this season when the Saints need one yard for a first down, while Pierre Thomas has none.Ingram has also received the vast majority of red-zone touches. The Saints clearly envision him as their short-yardage/goal-line back, even if Ingram has only one touchdown so far. Darren Sproles has three (two on offense, one on a return), and Thomas doesn't have any touchdowns this season."

Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune

He may have missed out on a couple goal line opportunities, but he's still getting looks in the red zone and I still believe he will be a fantasy asset this year.

Edited by cst2006
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So far, this is what we seem to know:

1) A large part of Ingram's value for this year was tied up in the idea that he'd get a ton of goaline carries and rack up a bunch of TDs. So far, he has ONE goal line carry and he failed. He has also failed on all but two of his other short yardage carries.

"Mark Ingram has 10 carries this season when the Saints need one yard for a first down, while Pierre Thomas has none.Ingram has also received the vast majority of red-zone touches. The Saints clearly envision him as their short-yardage/goal-line back, even if Ingram has only one touchdown so far. Darren Sproles has three (two on offense, one on a return), and Thomas doesn't have any touchdowns this season."

Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune

He may have missed out on a couple goal line opportunities, but he's still getting looks in the red zone and I still believe he will be a fantasy asset this year.

He is on pace for 3 more goal line touches this season.
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he seems to be ranked higher than usual this week. anyone starting him due to bye?

I'm starting him over Greene, despite the ground and pound comment from Ryan. I don't know if the lofty ranking is warranted or not, but he will surely get at least 15 touches against a weak run D.
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Mark me on this. This will be a productive RB2 game form our boy. He has been running hard, earning more and more carries each week while playing good to above average run D's. This is a 80+ yard game on the ground, 1 catch and a 50% chance at a score.

how will we know if you were right on that?
It is 50-50. Either he will or he won't.
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Guest Luke Skywalker

I'm not sure what you consider a stud but Sproles is RB7 through 4 games in ppr. So, you can eliminate B from your list.

No doubt, but that doesn't mean drafting Sproles as your #2 back is solid planning.
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he seems to be ranked higher than usual this week. anyone starting him due to bye?

I'm starting him over Greene, despite the ground and pound comment from Ryan. I don't know if the lofty ranking is warranted or not, but he will surely get at least 15 touches against a weak run D.

Mark me on this. This will be a productive RB2 game form our boy. He has been running hard, earning more and more carries each week while playing good to above average run D's. This is a 80+ yard game on the ground, 1 catch and a 50% chance at a score.

On the bandwagon this week. Let's see. One of the bottom 3 run D in the league giving up the most points to backs and coming off a game where Forte got 200 yards against them. Last year, Ivory averaged 6.7 against them in game 4 and 5.0 against them in game 9. Ingram averages 13 carries a game. 65-90 yards + possibility of TD means hes a good play this week. Heck, anyone getting this many touches against Panthers is a good play in my opinion. I think it says more about Ingram if he doesn't have a good game... again.
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So far, this is what we seem to know:

1) A large part of Ingram's value for this year was tied up in the idea that he'd get a ton of goaline carries and rack up a bunch of TDs. So far, he has ONE goal line carry and he failed. He has also failed on all but two of his other short yardage carries.

"Mark Ingram has 10 carries this season when the Saints need one yard for a first down, while Pierre Thomas has none.Ingram has also received the vast majority of red-zone touches. The Saints clearly envision him as their short-yardage/goal-line back, even if Ingram has only one touchdown so far. Darren Sproles has three (two on offense, one on a return), and Thomas doesn't have any touchdowns this season."

Source: New Orleans Times-Picayune

He may have missed out on a couple goal line opportunities, but he's still getting looks in the red zone and I still believe he will be a fantasy asset this year.

And yet, Ingram keeps failing on those one yard and red zone carries. How many more is he going to get when he's a failure over and over and over and over again? Not many more.

And this idea that he's played so many tough run defenses so far is a joke. Green Bay has an excellent run defense, but the others are middling at best. Chicago is giving up the 23rd most rushing yards per game this year at a clip of 5.1 YPC. Houston is 18th and giving up 4.9 YPC. Jax is 15th and giving up 4.0 per carry. That's not exactly stellar defenses that he's been running into. Pretending that his stats stink because the run defenses have been tough is ridiculous.

Still, he IS going up against the one of the bottom 3 or 4 run defenses this week. If he can't put up at least 90+ and a TD, I would think most owners would be smart enough to give up on him and send him to a permabench spot hoping for an injury to Sproles. (Although he does get to play against the putrid St. Louis defense in Week 8).

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I just traded him away in dynasty as part of a deal to acquire Lesean McCoy. There is just too much uncertainty around him. Until runners start dropping with injuries, he's going to be tough to start. Sproles isn't going anywhere for a while

its ok to admit you were wrong
Wrong about Ingram? You bet I was. I should have drafted Newton obviously (start 2qb dynasty).
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I just traded him away in dynasty as part of a deal to acquire Lesean McCoy. There is just too much uncertainty around him. Until runners start dropping with injuries, he's going to be tough to start. Sproles isn't going anywhere for a while

its ok to admit you were wrong
Wrong about Ingram? You bet I was. I should have drafted Newton obviously (start 2qb dynasty).
haha I was mocking you for thishttp://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=603898&view=findpost&p=13403809
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I keep trying to sell myself on Ingram..

but his lack of top end speed is concerning to me similar to how I was concerned with Moreno's lack of top end speed.

I don't quite know if he fits into the Saints offense all that well either..

He's an old school back in my mind, that should be on a team dedicated to running the ball, with a tough road grading o-line, pounding the d-line into submission.. He shouldn't be on pass first team.

A three headed attack of Thomas, Sproles and Ivory would've been enough for the Saints to get the job done, minus injury concerns of course.

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So those of you in dynasty leagues what kind of deals are you seeing for him right now? I imagine most owners have to hold but I am also sure a few deals have went down.

Was offered Stevie Johnson for Ingram in a PPR. I ended up turning it down as I have no one at RB after Charles and I can't be certain he'll ever come back 100%.
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I think in about 5 or 6 weeks this thread will be nice to revisit.

You're right there. It doesn't matter if Ingram turns out to be complete bust or fantasy stud.... half of the people in this thread will have the opportunity to gloat.Me, personally, I drafted Ingram way to high. I didn't drink the Kool Aid specifically, but I did trust FBG rankings. That's fine though, no one's perfect and their rankings have been pretty solid for me over the years.
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So those of you in dynasty leagues what kind of deals are you seeing for him right now? I imagine most owners have to hold but I am also sure a few deals have went down.

I traded for him in 2 12 team PPR dynasty leagues over the last week or two.1. Gave Smitty for Ingram and 2012 1st.2. Gave LeShoure, Ryan Williams, and Torrey Smith for Ingram
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So those of you in dynasty leagues what kind of deals are you seeing for him right now? I imagine most owners have to hold but I am also sure a few deals have went down.

I traded for him in 2 12 team PPR dynasty leagues over the last week or two.1. Gave Smitty for Ingram and 2012 1st.2. Gave LeShoure, Ryan Williams, and Torrey Smith for Ingram
I think you're of the right mindset here Eastwood......buying low. I've seen too many games watching Ingram torch SEC defenses to believe that he's incapable of translating his game to the NFL. Please, no Tebow comments. Edited by agent orange
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I'm leaning towards starting him this week ahead of the Riddler. No Woodchuck makes me want to plug in the Rid, but Ingram's matchup is so freaking juicy. Carolina sux on D and the Saints are going to want to keep Super Cam off the field.

19 carries 85 yds 1 TD

2 catches 13 yds

And then back to the pine for him next week. :ph34r:

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So those of you in dynasty leagues what kind of deals are you seeing for him right now? I imagine most owners have to hold but I am also sure a few deals have went down.

I traded for him in 2 12 team PPR dynasty leagues over the last week or two.1. Gave Smitty for Ingram and 2012 1st.2. Gave LeShoure, Ryan Williams, and Torrey Smith for Ingram
I like both those trades. An extra 2012 1st is very nice as next years rookie class looks very talented (Luck, Richardson, Blackmon, Floyd, Jeffery, Ray Graham to name a few). As for the 2nd trade, thats just a flat out steal. Edited by Kenny Powers
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