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Dion Lewis (2 Viewers)

I've weighed in a few times here...my updated thoughts.

1) The Patriots operate primarily out of the shotgun. That automatically takes Blount off the field for the most part. With Brady at the helm, that won't change. Now will there be instances like the second half of last weeks game where the Pats go run heavy...of course.

2) Blount is a guy who gets the ball more than 50% of the time when he is on the field. Why this is important to note is because if he does get 15 carries, it means he's generally doing it in 30 or fewer snaps. Why it's also important to note is that Blount will likely top out at 10 carries/game on average which means he's likely going to play 20-30 snaps/game.

3) To me, the greater concern is actually when/if LaFell comes back. Lewis is currently the 3rd look in that offense behind target monsters Gronk/Edelman. But LaFell showed himself to be quite capable last year, and if he returns healthy, that's Lewis' exposure point IMO.

4) With all that said, I suspect so long as he stays healthy, Lewis is in line for 650-700 snaps this season which is a very high number and one that so long as he maintains even 80% of the efficiency levels he's producing to at the moment, he'll be a borderline RB1 at worst.

 
I don't think 35-40 or so is unrealistic for Lewis in Dynasty. I love him in redraft leagues the rest of this season but long-term I have no idea how things could shake out. The picture could get much clearer as the season goes on but right now I'd be reluctant to rank him too high in Dynasty.
There are plenty of ?'s around some of the names in that area that have not shown the production capacity or talent level of Lewis. Agree to disagree I guess, rankings are subjective. I'd be curious to see where Adam & Sig have him ranked for dynasty purposes.
I'm really bad about updating my rankings, but I'm posting weekly dynasty value charts. Last week, in PPR scoring with a balanced 10% time discount, Lewis checked in at RB16, 76th overall. This week he's up to RB7, 38th overall.

7th seems crazy high, even to me, but part of it is just the position as a whole. I've been saying for years that it sucks, and this is emblematic. He's a 25-year-old RB who passes the eye test and who Henry has projected as the #7 fantasy RB going forward in PPR this year. Realistically, how much lower could I reasonably rank that combination? Ameer Abdullah and Melvin Gordon are RB6 and RB10 and it's not like they're any more proven. Everyone at the position right now is either old, unproven, bad at football, or Le'Veon Bell.

38th overall seems much more reasonable, and puts him on par with WR21, (Devante Parker). That jives with my subjective impressions. I think his value right now is somewhere in the "mid-to-late 1st round rookie pick" range. In terms of raw value score instead of ordinal ranking, (which is what we should be focusing on, since they're "value charts", after all), my numbers basically have Le'Veon Bell as worth four Dion Lewises.

In case anyone thinks I'm just a biased owner, (I do own him pretty much everywhere now), remember that the causal arrow runs the other way, too. I didn't own Lewis everywhere two weeks ago. I realized that I valued him well over the market consensus, so I went out and got him, (at prices well over his market value- I traded Davante Adams for him straight up last week). I might crash and burn on this, but I'm not saying controversial stuff just to generate attention. I'm managing my own teams consistently with my beliefs, here. If Lewis goes down, we're all going down together. :)

 
many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
Kind of like how many non-owners have been looking at Lewis like a scorned ex-lover. They often undervalue him.
It's comments like these that turn threads adversarial instead of informative. I like hearing what other people are offering and are being offered for him.

As a Dion owner (redraft, non-ppr) I worry that I am overvaluing him (same with Karlos Williams).
I agree, little too caffeinated this morning. Sorry.
No worries. We all do it from time-to-time Don't want to waste thread space with my soap box (the mobile users get testy about that)

I am just trying to be more positive around here. I see a lot of people complaining about how it seems more contentious around here and I am trying to do my part to keep threads on track as well as be excellent. I hope the people complaining about it choose to remain positive influences and work to shift the perception.
 
I don't think 35-40 or so is unrealistic for Lewis in Dynasty. I love him in redraft leagues the rest of this season but long-term I have no idea how things could shake out. The picture could get much clearer as the season goes on but right now I'd be reluctant to rank him too high in Dynasty.
There are plenty of ?'s around some of the names in that area that have not shown the production capacity or talent level of Lewis. Agree to disagree I guess, rankings are subjective. I'd be curious to see where Adam & Sig have him ranked for dynasty purposes.
I'm really bad about updating my rankings, but I'm posting weekly dynasty value charts. Last week, in PPR scoring with a balanced 10% time discount, Lewis checked in at RB16, 76th overall. This week he's up to RB7, 38th overall.

7th seems crazy high, even to me, but part of it is just the position as a whole. I've been saying for years that it sucks, and this is emblematic. He's a 25-year-old RB who passes the eye test and who Henry has projected as the #7 fantasy RB going forward in PPR this year. Realistically, how much lower could I reasonably rank that combination? Ameer Abdullah and Melvin Gordon are RB6 and RB10 and it's not like they're any more proven. Everyone at the position right now is either old, unproven, bad at football, or Le'Veon Bell.

38th overall seems much more reasonable, and puts him on par with WR21, (Devante Parker). That jives with my subjective impressions. I think his value right now is somewhere in the "mid-to-late 1st round rookie pick" range. In terms of raw value score instead of ordinal ranking, (which is what we should be focusing on, since they're "value charts", after all), my numbers basically have Le'Veon Bell as worth four Dion Lewises.

In case anyone thinks I'm just a biased owner, (I do own him pretty much everywhere now), remember that the causal arrow runs the other way, too. I didn't own Lewis everywhere two weeks ago. I realized that I valued him well over the market consensus, so I went out and got him, (at prices well over his market value- I traded Davante Adams for him straight up last week). I might crash and burn on this, but I'm not saying controversial stuff just to generate attention. I'm managing my own teams consistently with my beliefs, here. If Lewis goes down, we're all going down together. :)
Thanks Adam, appreciate your input.

I like to think that my biases drive my roster decisions and not the other away around.

 
I can agree with 40+ RBs being more valuable than Lewis. I certainly wouldn't say that it is absurd. Weren't Jonas Gray and James White both getting similar production on a week to week basis at one point?
Jonas Gray had one huge game (and was subsequently benched) and James White has never done anything in a regular season game.

 
It can be hard to trade for guys like Lewis right now - many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
I think I'm undervaluing Lewis because of the opportunity cost. I didn't use a high draft pick on him - just a waiver pickup. Maybe I'm not in the majority, though.
I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's hard to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.

 
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I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's had to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.
I know plenty of owners who will always cash out on waiver gems who hit (dynasty mostly), sometimes it works well, sometimes its a disaster. For me I only look to move a player when I feel he's on his way down. Sometimes it's genius, other times I'm hasty and giving up on a player too quickly, or simply am selling lowish. I think the key is to be consistent with whichever approach you take. I'll be much more okay with him returning to irrelevance on my roster than if I was to trade him and he is NE's lead back for the next 2-3 years.

Another solid week will almost assuredly close the window for acquiring him unless paying a huge bounty. A price/risk that not many are likely to take.

 
It can be hard to trade for guys like Lewis right now - many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
I think I'm undervaluing Lewis because of the opportunity cost. I didn't use a high draft pick on him - just a waiver pickup. Maybe I'm not in the majority, though.
I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's had to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.
I think the downside to Lewis is going to be that his actual value is going to be greater than his perceived value for a decent part of the season. Above, I indicated that I thought that he was a borderline RB1 for the remainder of the season. Which means that if you were drafting today, you could conceivably attach a mid 2nd round grade on the guy. But I doubt he would be drafted there...

The interesting thing is, is that as an owner of Lewis, I feel strangely confident in his production consistency and his role in the Pats offense. Maybe I'm being naive, but what is there to suggest he won't be a big part of the Pats offensive success? So long as Brady/Gronk/Edelman stay healthy, I think he's going to be a pretty good hold.

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up.

They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.

1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.

 
It can be hard to trade for guys like Lewis right now - many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
I think I'm undervaluing Lewis because of the opportunity cost. I didn't use a high draft pick on him - just a waiver pickup. Maybe I'm not in the majority, though.
I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's had to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.
I think the downside to Lewis is going to be that his actual value is going to be greater than his perceived value for a decent part of the season. Above, I indicated that I thought that he was a borderline RB1 for the remainder of the season. Which means that if you were drafting today, you could conceivably attach a mid 2nd round grade on the guy. But I doubt he would be drafted there...

The interesting thing is, is that as an owner of Lewis, I feel strangely confident in his production consistency and his role in the Pats offense. Maybe I'm being naive, but what is there to suggest he won't be a big part of the Pats offensive success? So long as Brady/Gronk/Edelman stay healthy, I think he's going to be a pretty good hold.
One could argue that BB's past history with his RBs would suggest that he won't be a big part of the Pats offensive success. Others would argue that Lewis is a different RB, thus negating BB's past RB usage. What you (or anyone) chooses to believe is up to the individual, but it's not a foregone conclusion that Lewis will continue to produce at this rate, although it is possible.

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up.

They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.

1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them..

Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.

 
I don't think 35-40 or so is unrealistic for Lewis in Dynasty. I love him in redraft leagues the rest of this season but long-term I have no idea how things could shake out. The picture could get much clearer as the season goes on but right now I'd be reluctant to rank him too high in Dynasty.
There are plenty of ?'s around some of the names in that area that have not shown the production capacity or talent level of Lewis. Agree to disagree I guess, rankings are subjective. I'd be curious to see where Adam & Sig have him ranked for dynasty purposes.
I'm really bad about updating my rankings, but I'm posting weekly dynasty value charts. Last week, in PPR scoring with a balanced 10% time discount, Lewis checked in at RB16, 76th overall. This week he's up to RB7, 38th overall.

7th seems crazy high, even to me, but part of it is just the position as a whole. I've been saying for years that it sucks, and this is emblematic. He's a 25-year-old RB who passes the eye test and who Henry has projected as the #7 fantasy RB going forward in PPR this year. Realistically, how much lower could I reasonably rank that combination? Ameer Abdullah and Melvin Gordon are RB6 and RB10 and it's not like they're any more proven. Everyone at the position right now is either old, unproven, bad at football, or Le'Veon Bell.

38th overall seems much more reasonable, and puts him on par with WR21, (Devante Parker). That jives with my subjective impressions. I think his value right now is somewhere in the "mid-to-late 1st round rookie pick" range. In terms of raw value score instead of ordinal ranking, (which is what we should be focusing on, since they're "value charts", after all), my numbers basically have Le'Veon Bell as worth four Dion Lewises.

In case anyone thinks I'm just a biased owner, (I do own him pretty much everywhere now), remember that the causal arrow runs the other way, too. I didn't own Lewis everywhere two weeks ago. I realized that I valued him well over the market consensus, so I went out and got him, (at prices well over his market value- I traded Davante Adams for him straight up last week). I might crash and burn on this, but I'm not saying controversial stuff just to generate attention. I'm managing my own teams consistently with my beliefs, here. If Lewis goes down, we're all going down together. :)
I don't know what program you are using to calculate your rankings, but I think it would be fascinating to see how accurate your system is over the next few years. Even if it's as simple as your following it with your teams and how it works out for you. I love the formula, though.

 
It can be hard to trade for guys like Lewis right now - many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
I think I'm undervaluing Lewis because of the opportunity cost. I didn't use a high draft pick on him - just a waiver pickup. Maybe I'm not in the majority, though.
I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's had to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.
I think the downside to Lewis is going to be that his actual value is going to be greater than his perceived value for a decent part of the season. Above, I indicated that I thought that he was a borderline RB1 for the remainder of the season. Which means that if you were drafting today, you could conceivably attach a mid 2nd round grade on the guy. But I doubt he would be drafted there...

The interesting thing is, is that as an owner of Lewis, I feel strangely confident in his production consistency and his role in the Pats offense. Maybe I'm being naive, but what is there to suggest he won't be a big part of the Pats offensive success? So long as Brady/Gronk/Edelman stay healthy, I think he's going to be a pretty good hold.
I'm pretty much in line with you, here.

 
I think I'm on the opposite end - I may be overvaluing him. As a Lewis owner, it's had to trade potential - especially when the ceiling may be extremely high. I've had a few owners kick the tires with me, and before they've offered anything I let them know that it's going to take a strong bid to get him. It's only been a day - nothing yet. I think many are waiting to see what happens next week. Another solid week and and bet I get some serious bites.
I know plenty of owners who will always cash out on waiver gems who hit (dynasty mostly), sometimes it works well, sometimes its a disaster. For me I only look to move a player when I feel he's on his way down. Sometimes it's genius, other times I'm hasty and giving up on a player too quickly, or simply am selling lowish. I think the key is to be consistent with whichever approach you take. I'll be much more okay with him returning to irrelevance on my roster than if I was to trade him and he is NE's lead back for the next 2-3 years.

Another solid week will almost assuredly close the window for acquiring him unless paying a huge bounty. A price/risk that not many are likely to take.
Yeah, I agree with you on most owners will swing one way or the other with the pendulum that is "WW Gems". I actually get away with not being consistent, though, and it works well for me. I take each player individually and try to watch film (Game Pass, etc) on him if he's piqued my interest. Like with Lewis, the numbers popped, so I immediately watched every snap he's had so far. I like the talent, so I raised my asking price substantially. Of course this method can take mounds of time, and depending on what's going on, I might not do it. But the past few years my work has allowed me to have a laptop at my side almost always, running video. It's been a huge advantage in my leagues.

I think we are on the same page with Lewis, though. I'm chomping at the bit to see his next game. :thumbup:

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up.

They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.

1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them..

Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.

And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.

 
many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
Kind of like how many non-owners have been looking at Lewis like a scorned ex-lover. They often undervalue him.
#3 RB in my league going into his bye. Exactly just how much can you overvalue a top 3 player in his position at this point in time?

 
I'm a believer. Own him in one league. Offering mccoy for him in another where I'm desperate for rbs. Hope the other owner bites

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up.

They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.

1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them..

Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.

And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.
I get your critique of weather being more nuanced, and it's duly noted. But another poster brought it up not as a matter of weather, but late season workload.

I don't look at the backfield as a "big" vs "small" situation. Blount is a backup, Lewis is the feature back. But if we must put Lewis in the "small" role as you seem to be doing, then the numbers don't support a notion that he will see less work. We should expect no change in rushing attempts and more targets.

Did both of our analysis not end up with that conclustion?

Also, not many Lewis owners are afraid of Blount getting a few more carries I'd imagine.

 
Vereen & Blount's game logs when weather is under 40 degrees from 2013/14. I didn't include Ridley this time because he was hurt for cold weather games last year. But again, it doesn't support a notion of less fantasy output, the exact opposite- more!

Blount - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jtXFXywV
Vereen - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zscJRFiD

FP are assuming .5 PPR

Vereen actually scored almost 40% more FP's in cold weather games than vs. his average from 2013/14 (Cold: 14.4 to 10.47 avg) he also had the -exact- same amount of carries (Cold: 5.8 vs 5.83 avg) and more receptions (Cold: 5.8 vs 4.17 avg)

Blount also saw more FP's (Cold: 9.64 vs 7.07 avg) but only saw one extra rushing attempt (Cold: 10.8 vs 8.97 avg)

Also, Blount's cold weather output is almost all attributed to one game a 34-20 game against the Bills week 16 of 2013 whereas Vereen's output is far more distributed.

Add to this that Dion Lewis is a far better runner than Vereen and has been given plenty of early down work and I just don't see how you can come to the conclusion he's heading for less work when it's cold.

 
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Vereen & Blount's game logs when weather is under 40 degrees from 2013/14. I didn't include Ridley this time because he was hurt for cold weather games last year. But again, it doesn't support a notion of less fantasy output, the exact opposite- more!

Blount - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jtXFXywV

Vereen - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zscJRFiD

FP are assuming .5 PPR

Vereen actually scored almost 40% more FP's in cold weather games than vs. his average from 2013/14 (Cold: 14.4 to 10.47 avg) he also had the -exact- same amount of carries (Cold: 5.8 vs 5.83 avg) and more receptions (Cold: 5.8 vs 4.17 avg)

Blount also saw more FP's (Cold: 9.64 vs 7.07 avg) but only saw one extra rushing attempt (Cold: 10.8 vs 8.97 avg)

Also, Blount's cold weather output is almost all attributed to one game a 34-20 game against the Bills week 16 of 2013 whereas Vereen's output is far more distributed.

Add to this that Dion Lewis is a far better runner than Vereen and has been given plenty of early down work and I just don't see how you can come to the conclusion he's heading for less work when it's cold.
Those are interesting stats; thanks. What site lets you do that kind of stuff? It would be interesting to do different searches.

That being said, I'm not sure why you are focusing on Vereen and Blount. The discussion, as I understand it, is whether BB changes the way he uses the "types" of RBs, not specifically how he used Vereen and Blount. I definitely don't understand why you'd include Blount's stats when he was a Steeler; those are totally irrelevant. BB didn't have anything to do with the way Blount was used in those games.

As for your assertion that Lewis is the lead back, that's true, but it doesn't mean much. Lewis has received, 19, 13, & 13 touches. Those aren't huge numbers. If a RB is going to get that few touches, TD opportunities are important, and Blount will likely have more TDs at the end of the year than Lewis.

You seem to own Lewis, but not Blount, and are viewing it with a Lewis-centric bias. If you own both, as I do, the situation doesn't seem as clear, cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

I wouldn't give Lewis away, because he has real potential, but I think I read in this thread that someone was able to flip him for Marshawn Lynch; I would probably sprain my wrist trying to hit accept on that trade as fast as I could.

 
Those are interesting stats; thanks. What site lets you do that kind of stuff? It would be interesting to do different searches.

That being said, I'm not sure why you are focusing on Vereen and Blount. The discussion, as I understand it, is whether BB changes the way he uses the "types" of RBs, not specifically how he used Vereen and Blount. I definitely don't understand why you'd include Blount's stats when he was a Steeler; those are totally irrelevant. BB didn't have anything to do with the way Blount was used in those games.

As for your assertion that Lewis is the lead back, that's true, but it doesn't mean much. Lewis has received, 19, 13, & 13 touches. Those aren't huge numbers. If a RB is going to get that few touches, TD opportunities are important, and Blount will likely have more TDs at the end of the year than Lewis.

You seem to own Lewis, but not Blount, and are viewing it with a Lewis-centric bias. If you own both, as I do, the situation doesn't seem as clear, cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

I wouldn't give Lewis away, because he has real potential, but I think I read in this thread that someone was able to flip him for Marshawn Lynch; I would probably sprain my wrist trying to hit accept on that trade as fast as I could.
Stats are from pro-football reference.

I'm focused on Vereen/Blount because those are the main actors at play here and have been the basis the comparison. Including the Steelers game was an oversight, my bad. Removing those games doesn't change much.

As far as TDs.. Lewis is getting RZ work and will get his share if current utilization holds true. He had 13 touches in one half last week, and if he is getting around 15 touches per game he's going to score a lot of fantasy points in that offense. Blount will get a handful of goal line carries but is the backup and will be the one who get few touches week to week. But this is a whole 'nother argument, I'm not going to run data on it now but Vereen has average more TDs (rush+receiving) per game than Blount for what it's worth.

But Lewis isn't Vereen or Blount, he's a hybrid of both that is a far better RB than both.

I do own a lot of Lewis, I've been advocating him on this board for almost a month now and have tried to convince people to take advantage of a great value in this thread. I've defended my positions with what I feel is reasonable and valid points/stats/conjecture. Me owning him doesn't make anything I say less valid. As I said earlier my biases (or opinions) shape the players on my rosters, not the other way around. Even if I was making baseless points (something the Lewis truthers seem to be doing) in support of him I have secured Blount in half the leagues I own Lewis.

I traded Lynch for Lewis/Blount in one league and I couldn't be more thrilled.

 
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I don't know what program you are using to calculate your rankings, but I think it would be fascinating to see how accurate your system is over the next few years. Even if it's as simple as your following it with your teams and how it works out for you. I love the formula, though.
It was a big offseason project with a lot of moving parts, but I laid out the road map here. That includes links back to all the previous pieces. If you're a subscriber, I'd recommend reading that and clicking through the links if you really want to understand the process.

For non-subscribers who are interested, here's the gist. Since they have nothing to do with Dion Lewis I'm going to tuck this whole thing behind spoiler tags, and attach a big fat old WARNING: MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT AHOY.

Basically, I created an improved version of VBD that operated on a per-game basis instead of a per-season basis, and which compared to two different baselines- true replacement level, and average fantasy starter. I then dug through a bunch of MFL leagues from last year and recorded what the actual observed replacement level and average starter values were, and from this I came up with a formula to calculate EVoB (estimated value over baseline) and EVoS (estimated value over starters).

Then I copied every season from a skill player from 1985 to 2014 from PFR, ran them through my EVoB / EVoS calculations, and built a database of historical fantasy values, (if anyone cares, I've uploaded them to Google Sheets and you're free to play with them. Read more here.) From this database, I started digging around into player aging patterns and discovered that, while the population average at each age forms the pleasant age curves with which we are so familiar, applying those curves to individual players was an example of ecological fallacy.

Instead of slowly declining, the players who didn't implode entirely actually held remarkably steady in fantasy value year after year, (see this chart), but as players age the odds of them imploding went up, (see this chart). That's why the population average was declining, because more and more players were just imploding outright.

Anyway, this finding suggested that, apart from a ramping-up period at the beginning stages, players basically hovered around a stable "true performance level" for their entire fantasy career until they suddenly and unexpectedly fell off the cliff. Which means that if we can estimate their "true performance level", and we can estimate their remaining career, their fantasy value can be estimated by multiplying the two figures together.

To estimate remaining career, I built a "mortality table" to calculate life expectancy. It's the same thing life insurance agencies do when they offer you a policy. They don't know when you're going to die, but they can at least rig the odds in their favor so they can expect more money coming in in the form of premiums than going out in the form of claims. The mortality table was built on historical aging patterns from my value databases.

Estimating "true performance level" is really the tricky part. Up to this point, everything's pretty well supported by actual historical patterns. I mean, I'm no actuary, so I'm sure the "estimated career remaining" part could be improved a bit, but everything is theoretically sound and I'm pretty confident it's at least all in the right ballpark. But just like VBD is only as good as the projections on which it's based, my dynasty values are only as good as the "true performance level" I'm inputting.

Since estimating that is really freaking hard, I decided to cheat. Bob Henry was FantasyPros' most accurate ranker last year, and he does the top 200 forward for FBGs during the season. So when it comes out on Tuesday, I just copy it, dump it into a spreadsheet that automatically breaks it out for me, and use that as the starting point. I assume that, since players tend to play at their "true performance level", their projected production for this year is often going to be pretty close. And since we already know that Bob is good at what he does, it kind of gets around any lingering questions about how good I am at what I do.

From that skeleton, I make necessary adjustments. I build in assumptions of improvement into the rookies, create projections for the veterans who are sitting out this season, (Jordy, Gordon, Benjamin, etc.), and basically just tweak things here and there. I mostly aim for the low-hanging fruit and try to leave well enough alone whenever possible.

Then, once all of that is done, I apply a time discount formula to represent the differences in mindset between contenders and rebuilders. The biggest difference between the two is how they value this year relative to the next, and time discounts are the perfect tool to model that. My standard discount, which I call my "balanced" values, is a flat 10%. Next year is worth 90% of this year, the year after is worth 81%, the year after is 73%, and so on. This covers things like risk of the league folding and just general impatience. In my value charts, I also submit charts with a 30% time discount to represent gung-ho "win now" contenders and with a -10% time discount, (i.e. "next year is more valuable than this year") to represent a heavy rebuild. But for my own teams, I'm mostly just using the 10%.

So anyway, "how accurate the system is" is kind of a moot question. The system is fine. I know it works, because it's modeled on actual historical fantasy values. I could go back to any point in the past, use my knowledge of players' "true production levels", and reverse-engineer a pretty rad set of dynasty trade values for that specific time. There's still a lot of stuff I'm learning, and there's plenty of room for me to improve my formulas, but from a high-level conceptual standpoint, I feel really good that the framework is on point.

In terms of how accurate my value charts are... that's the real question. It all hinges on how accurately I'm able to estimate true performance level. It's just like redraft projections- the concept of VBD is unassailable, prima facie true based on simple logic. But actual projected VBD values are only going to be as good as the projections from which they're built. Footballguys sells a lot of subscriptions in large part because they've got an awfully long track record of strong projections.

I'd be really interested to measure the accuracy of my assumptions. I can tell you right now from some informal testing I've run on my numbers that for 2015 so far, I've been absolutely murdering it. I can also tell you right now that the sample size is three weeks, (plus a couple other preseason data points). How confident am I that my hot start is a reflection of the quality of my processes vs. just blind, stupid luck? Not even the slightest bit confident. The sample size is pathetic. I've had hot three week stretches before, and until I get a lot more data coming in, I'll assume that this one means exactly as much as the last ones meant. Which is not much at all.

When I have time this offseason, I'm going to do a lot more tinkering around the edges, improving my calculations a little bit, back-testing my results and seeing if I can improve my methodology, that sort of thing. I also want to add a lot more features to the mix. These generic pre-generated value charts are just the tip of the iceberg. I just need to put them through their paces first and make sure they actually hold up before I try anything really crazy with them.

In the meantime, in the name of informal testing, I've been creating bespoke value sheets for both of my dynasty leagues and running my teams by them. If you see me posting any trade in the dynasty trades thread, you can be pretty confident it's something I did because the numbers told me to. Some of them are going to look pretty out of whack with established market values, but I think that's just kind of the nature of the exercise.

In short, if the final product sucks, I'll probably ruin my own teams with it long before I get far enough along to ruin anyone else's teams. :)
 
Spent a good chunk, over 60% of my FAAB budget on him two weeks ago. Just dealt him (and Eli Manning/Stevie Johnson) for Andrew Luck. Thank you Dion, now continue to prove how good you really are, now back to our everyday programming.

Watching the sky cam/coach cam on Lewis's preseason and regular season touches has me convinced that his floor is Darren Sproles~esque (in his prime) the rest of the way, if he stays healthy. I'm also pretty certain he'll wear down significantly or get injured as the touches add up. Hope I'm wrong about that guess but I just don't see him being able to tough out a full year just yet.

 
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Those are interesting stats; thanks. What site lets you do that kind of stuff? It would be interesting to do different searches.

That being said, I'm not sure why you are focusing on Vereen and Blount. The discussion, as I understand it, is whether BB changes the way he uses the "types" of RBs, not specifically how he used Vereen and Blount. I definitely don't understand why you'd include Blount's stats when he was a Steeler; those are totally irrelevant. BB didn't have anything to do with the way Blount was used in those games.

As for your assertion that Lewis is the lead back, that's true, but it doesn't mean much. Lewis has received, 19, 13, & 13 touches. Those aren't huge numbers. If a RB is going to get that few touches, TD opportunities are important, and Blount will likely have more TDs at the end of the year than Lewis.

You seem to own Lewis, but not Blount, and are viewing it with a Lewis-centric bias. If you own both, as I do, the situation doesn't seem as clear, cut and dried as you seem to think it is.

I wouldn't give Lewis away, because he has real potential, but I think I read in this thread that someone was able to flip him for Marshawn Lynch; I would probably sprain my wrist trying to hit accept on that trade as fast as I could.
Stats are from pro-football reference.

I'm focused on Vereen/Blount because those are the main actors at play here and have been the basis the comparison. Including the Steelers game was an oversight, my bad. Removing those games doesn't change much.

As far as TDs.. Lewis is getting RZ work and will get his share if current utilization holds true. He had 13 touches in one half last week, and if he is getting around 15 touches per game he's going to score a lot of fantasy points in that offense. Blount will get a handful of goal line carries but is the backup and will be the one who get few touches week to week. But this is a whole 'nother argument, I'm not going to run data on it now but Vereen has average more TDs (rush+receiving) per game than Blount for what it's worth.

But Lewis isn't Vereen or Blount, he's a hybrid of both that is a far better RB than both.

I do own a lot of Lewis, I've been advocating him on this board for almost a month now and have tried to convince people to take advantage of a great value in this thread. I've defended my positions with what I feel is reasonable and valid points/stats/conjecture. Me owning him doesn't make anything I say less valid. As I said earlier my biases (or opinions) shape the players on my rosters, not the other way around. Even if I was making baseless points (something the Lewis truthers seem to be doing) in support of him I have secured Blount in half the leagues I own Lewis.

I traded Lynch for Lewis/Blount in one league and I couldn't be more thrilled.
Thanks-I've used profootball-reference, but didn't know you could do searches by weather.

With regards to Vereen and Blount being the main actors, I have to disagree. It's not about those 2 guys, it's about how BB uses (or is perceived to use) his RB "types." If you just look at those two RBs, but ignore Maroney, Gray, Ridley, Faulk, Woodhead, etc, you're restricting yourself to a very small sample size, and just two specific RBs, which isn't really where the belief comes from.

With regards to RZ looks, according to profootball-reference, Lewis has 8 touches in the RZ in 3 games, Blount has 11 in 2. Blount has 3 TDs, Lewis 2.

Blount has 21 TDs in 35 games with NE (his TD numbers in games he played with TB and Pitt are not relevant, IMO). Vereen has 17 TDs in 49 games with NE. I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that Vereen scores more on a per-game basis than Blount; it just isn't true.

I wish I could be as comfortable as you are calling Lewis the #1 guy, I'm just not, and it's based on my perception of how BB has used his RBs since Dillon left.

I have to do more with regards to the cold-weather thing (thanks again for the profootball-reference tip), but Blount will score more TDs than Lewis this year (barring injury, someone over-sleeping, getting cut, etc); of that I'm confident.

 
Just to clarify, Blount has scored 20 TD in 28 games with NE (regular and post season included). I'm not sure the 21 TD in 35 games numbers came from.

 
Honestly, I don't know what the hell I was looking at either. I can't figure out where I came with an extra TD and 7 more games.

The points remain though: Blount scores at a higher rate than Vereen (TD/game ratio) for NE, and he has gotten more RZ looks in 2 games than Lewis has gotten in 2 (and scored more, too).

I believe that Blount will, barring injuries/benchings/getting cut, etc score more TDs than Lewis. I also believe that he will get more carries. Lewis will get more receptions, possibly more total yards. It seems to be the definition of a RBBC.

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up.

They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.

1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them..

Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.

And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.
Does it really matter if we break down the weather pattern for the past few seasons to try and predict what may happen with the weather this year and how BB will use his RBs?

Seems to me the good vs bad weather distribution this season will be somewhere in line with the good vs bad weather distribution of previous seasons. So it should all come out in the wash.

And even you admit that the games you selected are "possible cold-weather games" but we haven't really verified that. I am sure we could but I don't see how that would help as it relates to this season.

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up. They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them.. Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.
Does it really matter if we break down the weather pattern for the past few seasons to try and predict what may happen with the weather this year and how BB will use his RBs?Seems to me the good vs bad weather distribution this season will be somewhere in line with the good vs bad weather distribution of previous seasons. So it should all come out in the wash.

And even you admit that the games you selected are "possible cold-weather games" but we haven't really verified that. I am sure we could but I don't see how that would help as it relates to this season.
We're discussing the perception that BB uses his "big" RBs more late in the season, when its colder. IF that premise is true, then it might be helpful when deciding to trade (or trade for) Lewis. My initial post was in response to a post that looked at late games, but didn't account for weather. I tried to limit my results to games that weren't in warm climates or domes, and freely admitted I didn't find the temps for those games. I've since been informed that info is available on pro football preference (but I can't find it yet). So when/if we can determine IF BB DOES use his big RBs more when it gets cold, we can have a bit more info to help us guess what BB might do, which is probably a futile endeavor, anyway.
 
The time to move Lewis has to be soon, no? I guess it depends on what you can get for him.

You don't want to wait for the inevitable 2 carry, 4 catch, 20 yard game where the rest of your league looks at you and says "I don't want him, NE backfield is always a mess."

Sell him while someone might still believe he's going to do it every game.

 
many owners who have them are patting themselves on the back, looking at Lewis like a proud son of theirs because they had the foresight to grab him. They often overvalue him..
Kind of like how many non-owners have been looking at Lewis like a scorned ex-lover. They often undervalue him.
#3 RB in my league going into his bye. Exactly just how much can you overvalue a top 3 player in his position at this point in time?
After three games Travis Benjamin is the #6 scoring player overall and David Johnson is the #5 scoring RB in my league. So I think we can overvalue them quite a bit at this point in time.

 
I think the opposite. This is the last chance to buy low because there are always people like you who don't believe and he has a bye and blounts big game is still fresh in everyone's mind

 
I don't know what program you are using to calculate your rankings, but I think it would be fascinating to see how accurate your system is over the next few years. Even if it's as simple as your following it with your teams and how it works out for you. I love the formula, though.
It was a big offseason project with a lot of moving parts, but I laid out the road map here. That includes links back to all the previous pieces. If you're a subscriber, I'd recommend reading that and clicking through the links if you really want to understand the process.

For non-subscribers who are interested, here's the gist. Since they have nothing to do with Dion Lewis I'm going to tuck this whole thing behind spoiler tags, and attach a big fat old WARNING: MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT AHOY.

Basically, I created an improved version of VBD that operated on a per-game basis instead of a per-season basis, and which compared to two different baselines- true replacement level, and average fantasy starter. I then dug through a bunch of MFL leagues from last year and recorded what the actual observed replacement level and average starter values were, and from this I came up with a formula to calculate EVoB (estimated value over baseline) and EVoS (estimated value over starters).

Then I copied every season from a skill player from 1985 to 2014 from PFR, ran them through my EVoB / EVoS calculations, and built a database of historical fantasy values, (if anyone cares, I've uploaded them to Google Sheets and you're free to play with them. Read more here.) From this database, I started digging around into player aging patterns and discovered that, while the population average at each age forms the pleasant age curves with which we are so familiar, applying those curves to individual players was an example of ecological fallacy.

Instead of slowly declining, the players who didn't implode entirely actually held remarkably steady in fantasy value year after year, (see this chart), but as players age the odds of them imploding went up, (see this chart). That's why the population average was declining, because more and more players were just imploding outright.

Anyway, this finding suggested that, apart from a ramping-up period at the beginning stages, players basically hovered around a stable "true performance level" for their entire fantasy career until they suddenly and unexpectedly fell off the cliff. Which means that if we can estimate their "true performance level", and we can estimate their remaining career, their fantasy value can be estimated by multiplying the two figures together.

To estimate remaining career, I built a "mortality table" to calculate life expectancy. It's the same thing life insurance agencies do when they offer you a policy. They don't know when you're going to die, but they can at least rig the odds in their favor so they can expect more money coming in in the form of premiums than going out in the form of claims. The mortality table was built on historical aging patterns from my value databases.

Estimating "true performance level" is really the tricky part. Up to this point, everything's pretty well supported by actual historical patterns. I mean, I'm no actuary, so I'm sure the "estimated career remaining" part could be improved a bit, but everything is theoretically sound and I'm pretty confident it's at least all in the right ballpark. But just like VBD is only as good as the projections on which it's based, my dynasty values are only as good as the "true performance level" I'm inputting.

Since estimating that is really freaking hard, I decided to cheat. Bob Henry was FantasyPros' most accurate ranker last year, and he does the top 200 forward for FBGs during the season. So when it comes out on Tuesday, I just copy it, dump it into a spreadsheet that automatically breaks it out for me, and use that as the starting point. I assume that, since players tend to play at their "true performance level", their projected production for this year is often going to be pretty close. And since we already know that Bob is good at what he does, it kind of gets around any lingering questions about how good I am at what I do.

From that skeleton, I make necessary adjustments. I build in assumptions of improvement into the rookies, create projections for the veterans who are sitting out this season, (Jordy, Gordon, Benjamin, etc.), and basically just tweak things here and there. I mostly aim for the low-hanging fruit and try to leave well enough alone whenever possible.

Then, once all of that is done, I apply a time discount formula to represent the differences in mindset between contenders and rebuilders. The biggest difference between the two is how they value this year relative to the next, and time discounts are the perfect tool to model that. My standard discount, which I call my "balanced" values, is a flat 10%. Next year is worth 90% of this year, the year after is worth 81%, the year after is 73%, and so on. This covers things like risk of the league folding and just general impatience. In my value charts, I also submit charts with a 30% time discount to represent gung-ho "win now" contenders and with a -10% time discount, (i.e. "next year is more valuable than this year") to represent a heavy rebuild. But for my own teams, I'm mostly just using the 10%.

So anyway, "how accurate the system is" is kind of a moot question. The system is fine. I know it works, because it's modeled on actual historical fantasy values. I could go back to any point in the past, use my knowledge of players' "true production levels", and reverse-engineer a pretty rad set of dynasty trade values for that specific time. There's still a lot of stuff I'm learning, and there's plenty of room for me to improve my formulas, but from a high-level conceptual standpoint, I feel really good that the framework is on point.

In terms of how accurate my value charts are... that's the real question. It all hinges on how accurately I'm able to estimate true performance level. It's just like redraft projections- the concept of VBD is unassailable, prima facie true based on simple logic. But actual projected VBD values are only going to be as good as the projections from which they're built. Footballguys sells a lot of subscriptions in large part because they've got an awfully long track record of strong projections.

I'd be really interested to measure the accuracy of my assumptions. I can tell you right now from some informal testing I've run on my numbers that for 2015 so far, I've been absolutely murdering it. I can also tell you right now that the sample size is three weeks, (plus a couple other preseason data points). How confident am I that my hot start is a reflection of the quality of my processes vs. just blind, stupid luck? Not even the slightest bit confident. The sample size is pathetic. I've had hot three week stretches before, and until I get a lot more data coming in, I'll assume that this one means exactly as much as the last ones meant. Which is not much at all.

When I have time this offseason, I'm going to do a lot more tinkering around the edges, improving my calculations a little bit, back-testing my results and seeing if I can improve my methodology, that sort of thing. I also want to add a lot more features to the mix. These generic pre-generated value charts are just the tip of the iceberg. I just need to put them through their paces first and make sure they actually hold up before I try anything really crazy with them.

In the meantime, in the name of informal testing, I've been creating bespoke value sheets for both of my dynasty leagues and running my teams by them. If you see me posting any trade in the dynasty trades thread, you can be pretty confident it's something I did because the numbers told me to. Some of them are going to look pretty out of whack with established market values, but I think that's just kind of the nature of the exercise.

In short, if the final product sucks, I'll probably ruin my own teams with it long before I get far enough along to ruin anyone else's teams. :)
Whoa. :o

 
I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up. They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them.. Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.
Does it really matter if we break down the weather pattern for the past few seasons to try and predict what may happen with the weather this year and how BB will use his RBs?Seems to me the good vs bad weather distribution this season will be somewhere in line with the good vs bad weather distribution of previous seasons. So it should all come out in the wash.

And even you admit that the games you selected are "possible cold-weather games" but we haven't really verified that. I am sure we could but I don't see how that would help as it relates to this season.
We're discussing the perception that BB uses his "big" RBs more late in the season, when its colder. IF that premise is true, then it might be helpful when deciding to trade (or trade for) Lewis. My initial post was in response to a post that looked at late games, but didn't account for weather. I tried to limit my results to games that weren't in warm climates or domes, and freely admitted I didn't find the temps for those games. I've since been informed that info is available on pro football preference (but I can't find it yet). So when/if we can determine IF BB DOES use his big RBs more when it gets cold, we can have a bit more info to help us guess what BB might do, which is probably a futile endeavor, anyway.
I totally appreciate the effort. However about the most we can hope to get out of analysis like this is to help make game day lineup decisions after getting the weather reports. And I have seen many times that the weather reports we find, even right before games, don't reflect the reality on the field. So it might help someone decide to sit/start Blount/Lewis it really has no predictive value as it relates to the rest of the season.

I guess you could use it as a part of a sales pitch to acquire/dish one of these guys.

 
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I didn't keep up with this entire conversation, but are people overlooking how Belicheck uses running backs differently towards the end of the season? I think Lewis is a guy you can use right now, but will diminish as the season progresses.

I only have Lewis in redraft leagues, so I'm not sure of the dynasty implications, but I sold Lewis in all leagues this week. I'm not sure when Belicheck is going to start changing up his backs, but I think it's a matter of when, not if it will happen. Feel free to disagree.

I was able to get Gore, Forsett, and Marshawn Lynch in the three leagues where I traded him.
I did the splits on Vereen/Blount/Ridley from 2012-2014 about 5-10 pages ago because the cold weather narrative came up. Spoiler: the numbers don't back it up. They do pass a bit more, but that will only help keep Lewis on the field.
I'm not sure about that. I saw your splits, but that doesn't really tell the whole story.1st-games in weeks 12-17 aren't necessarily going to be "cold weather" games. A late November game in Miami isn't the same as a late November game in Foxboro. A week 16 game in Detroit isn't the same as a week 16 game in Denver.

2nd-we should probably include playoff games, b/c they could be played in cold weather.

Without going back through the weather for each game NE played over the last few years, you can't be 100% sure about the impact weather had on NE's running game. Besides that, it's pretty obvious that BB is one of the biggest "game-planners" among NFL coaches. He is willing to change his gameplan based on opponent much more than other coaches might. So, IF NE runs more in a december home game, it could just be due to the opponent's weaknesses, as opposed to the weather. Also, if a game was a blowout, that could have impacted the number of rushes for big vs little RBs, too.

So, that being said, I didn't individually check the weather for each of these games, but I did compare the 2014 & 2013 stats in games that could have been cold weather games vs games that could have been fair weather. I defined possible cold weather games as home games after 11/15 as well as games in NY, Denver, Buffalo, Green Bay, etc. Games in Miami, Carolina, domes, etc were counted as warm weather games, even if they were played after 11/15.

NE played 13 possible cold weather games over those 2 years, and 24 possible warm weather games.

In the warm weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 17 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game (rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 2 receptions/game. (rounded)

In the cold weather games, the "big" running backs averaged 20 rushes/game (rounded). The "little" running backs averaged 4 rushes/game.(rounded). In addition, the "little" running backs averaged 4 receptions'/game. (rounded)

So, in games where the weather could have been cold, the "big" NE RBs rushed the ball 3 more times/game, and the "little" RBs saw no significant change in rushes, but did see more receptions.

Again, perhaps the number of rushes in these games by the different RBs was due to more than just weather, but just using games in weeks 12-17 as "cold" weather games, without regard to location or domes, doesn't really tell an accurate story.
My splits certainly aren't perfect, but I came to the same conclusion as you did with them.. Not much difference in rushing attempts and a slight increase in targets.
We didn't actually come to the same conclusion. My conclusion is that a real answer can't be determined unless someone actually looks at the temperature/weather of those games, then looks at the RB carries. You seem to think that your splits dis-prove the idea that the "big" RB in NE will get more involved when the weather turns. I think your splits didn't account for weather, at all. You just looked at the weeks games were played; you didn't factor in where those games were played, whether they were in a dome or not, or whether it was actually colder or not when a game was played. While my quick look didn't go in depth, at least I didn't count dome games as "cold weather," or games in SD, Miami, etc.And the fact is that in the possible cold-weather games, the "big" RBs DID get more carries/game.

Now, you want to make the argument that Lewis is a better RB than Vereen (and therefore would command more touches than Vereen did), that's fine, but acting like "big" NE RBs don't get more work when it's cold isn't based in fact, IMO.
Does it really matter if we break down the weather pattern for the past few seasons to try and predict what may happen with the weather this year and how BB will use his RBs?Seems to me the good vs bad weather distribution this season will be somewhere in line with the good vs bad weather distribution of previous seasons. So it should all come out in the wash.

And even you admit that the games you selected are "possible cold-weather games" but we haven't really verified that. I am sure we could but I don't see how that would help as it relates to this season.
We're discussing the perception that BB uses his "big" RBs more late in the season, when its colder. IF that premise is true, then it might be helpful when deciding to trade (or trade for) Lewis. My initial post was in response to a post that looked at late games, but didn't account for weather. I tried to limit my results to games that weren't in warm climates or domes, and freely admitted I didn't find the temps for those games. I've since been informed that info is available on pro football preference (but I can't find it yet). So when/if we can determine IF BB DOES use his big RBs more when it gets cold, we can have a bit more info to help us guess what BB might do, which is probably a futile endeavor, anyway.
I totally appreciate the effort. However about the most we can hope to get out of analysis like this is to help make game day lineup decisions after getting the weather reports. And I have seen many times that the weather reports we find, even right before games, don't reflect the reality on the field. So it might help someone decide to sit/start Blount/Lewis it really has no predictive value as it relates to the rest of the season.I guess you could use it as a part of a sales pitch to acquire/dish one of these guys.
Except for the Texans game & the week 17 game, all of the games NE plays at the end of the year are in possible cold weather, so IF this proves true, you might want to reconsider what you'd give up to get Lewis, or what you'd be willing to taken for him.
 
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Except for the Texans game & the week 17 game, all of the games NE plays at the end of the year are in possible cold weather, so IF this proves true, you might want to reconsider what you'd give up to get Lewis, or what you'd be willing to taken for him.
Yes, that would be part of the sales pitch.

 
Except for the Texans game & the week 17 game, all of the games NE plays at the end of the year are in possible cold weather, so IF this proves true, you might want to reconsider what you'd give up to get Lewis, or what you'd be willing to taken for him.
Yes, that would be part of the sales pitch.
I suppose, if you were trying to acquire/sell Blount. Since this thread is about Lewis, I would think that you wouldn't want to give as much for him, or wouldn't expect as much back in return. (again, IF this perception proves accurate; I'm looking at game-by-game on profootball-reference; I can't see how to sort by weather & it is taking forever)

 
Except for the Texans game & the week 17 game, all of the games NE plays at the end of the year are in possible cold weather, so IF this proves true, you might want to reconsider what you'd give up to get Lewis, or what you'd be willing to taken for him.
Yes, that would be part of the sales pitch.
I suppose, if you were trying to acquire/sell Blount. Since this thread is about Lewis, I would think that you wouldn't want to give as much for him, or wouldn't expect as much back in return. (again, IF this perception proves accurate; I'm looking at game-by-game on profootball-reference; I can't see how to sort by weather & it is taking forever)
Many will appreciate the effort, myself included, but personally I wouldn't bother.

Temp is only one variable, you also have to consider wind (and wind speed), rain (a lot? a little?) & snow all of which impact the game plan in different ways.

And even if you have all that info broken down we still have no idea what kind of weather the Pats will actually face two/three months from now. So, again, it will really only benefit us when making game day lineup decisions (which is awesome even if we can't necessarily rely on game day weather reports, which very often seem to be off) or in our sales pitch to try to buy/sell, Blount/Lewis.

More power to you if you complete the analysis and I will try to use the data but it seems like a very large project with an uncertain ROI.

 
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I don't think 35-40 or so is unrealistic for Lewis in Dynasty. I love him in redraft leagues the rest of this season but long-term I have no idea how things could shake out. The picture could get much clearer as the season goes on but right now I'd be reluctant to rank him too high in Dynasty.
There are plenty of ?'s around some of the names in that area that have not shown the production capacity or talent level of Lewis. Agree to disagree I guess, rankings are subjective. I'd be curious to see where Adam & Sig have him ranked for dynasty purposes.
I'm really bad about updating my rankings, but I'm posting weekly dynasty value charts. Last week, in PPR scoring with a balanced 10% time discount, Lewis checked in at RB16, 76th overall. This week he's up to RB7, 38th overall.

7th seems crazy high, even to me, but part of it is just the position as a whole. I've been saying for years that it sucks, and this is emblematic. He's a 25-year-old RB who passes the eye test and who Henry has projected as the #7 fantasy RB going forward in PPR this year. Realistically, how much lower could I reasonably rank that combination? Ameer Abdullah and Melvin Gordon are RB6 and RB10 and it's not like they're any more proven. Everyone at the position right now is either old, unproven, bad at football, or Le'Veon Bell.

38th overall seems much more reasonable, and puts him on par with WR21, (Devante Parker). That jives with my subjective impressions. I think his value right now is somewhere in the "mid-to-late 1st round rookie pick" range. In terms of raw value score instead of ordinal ranking, (which is what we should be focusing on, since they're "value charts", after all), my numbers basically have Le'Veon Bell as worth four Dion Lewises.

In case anyone thinks I'm just a biased owner, (I do own him pretty much everywhere now), remember that the causal arrow runs the other way, too. I didn't own Lewis everywhere two weeks ago. I realized that I valued him well over the market consensus, so I went out and got him, (at prices well over his market value- I traded Davante Adams for him straight up last week). I might crash and burn on this, but I'm not saying controversial stuff just to generate attention. I'm managing my own teams consistently with my beliefs, here. If Lewis goes down, we're all going down together. :)
Thanks for your observations; have always appreciated your thoughts. I agree with you on Lewis. He has the IT factor on a team that knows how to use his unique talents. He is still young. And he seems durable so far. Yes, Blount will steal some TDs, but especially in PPR, I seem him as a top 5-10 RB in dynasty.

 
Bayhawks said:
You seem to own Lewis, but not Blount, and are viewing it with a Lewis-centric bias. If you own both, as I do, the situation doesn't seem as clear, cut and dried as you seem to think it is.
I own both, and I am confident that Lewis will remain the lead RB all season, barring injury or fumble issues. I will be surprised if he does not end up as a top 12 fantasy RB.

IMO Lewis is better than Woodhead, Faulk, and Vereen. So I don't think it is particularly relevant to compare him to them as if he will be used similarly. BB is one of the best coaches in the NFL. Good coaches like him tailor their approach to fit their personnel, and I expect he will take full advantage of Lewis's talent, regardless of how he handled other RBs in the past.

 
Trying to go get this guy. Is it maybe smarter to try to wait until after this week to go for him so I can start the guy I'm trading? I'm thinking of sending Randle away for him in non ppr.

 
Trying to go get this guy. Is it maybe smarter to try to wait until after this week to go for him so I can start the guy I'm trading? I'm thinking of sending Randle away for him in non ppr.
Just to guess, but unless the Lewis owner is desperate, I doubt it gets you there.

 
I think people need to pump the brakes on Lewis a little. I'm a fan and an owner and I think he's a valuable asset especially in ppr, but we've seen everything working perfectly for him so far.

Brady is playing lights out, which obviously could continue, but the team has scored 119 points in three weeks. Everyone on the team looks better when things are rolling well.

Blount was out well one and played in a limited role week two. You can definitely say that that was just a "Blount game" and that Lewis scored well even in a down week, but there's a committee aspect here. This has been discussed ad nauseum.

The bigger issue though is that Lewis has had a lot of "lucky" plays. It doesn't matter how good a running back is, he's not going to get a 30 yard catch every week. It's hard to figure out what his "average" performance is going to be when he's probably been on the high end of his weekly range each week so far.

He's also not going to face teams who literally don't know who he is. Teams will adjust to the Patriots line rotation, Lewis' pass protection, etc. That doesn't mean he can't succeed, it just means that he's had the advantage of being a relative unknown so far.

He has 15 catches, 325 yards and 2 tds so far. That's almost 20 ppg in ppr. He's had games of 16, 12 and 25.8.

Let's say his weekly scoring range is 15-25 points. He might have some games higher or lower, but most will fall in that range. That would make his scoring average so far, and he'd be on pace for over 300 points this season.

But what if his weekly scoring range is 10-20. He's had two games right in that range, plus one outlier on the high end. By the end of the season were looking at 240 or so points and middle of the pack.

Why would one be a better range to use than the other? Well, his two highest scoring games were the ones where Blount barely played and nobody knew who he was, and teams were on their heels trying to deal with gronk and Edelman both having monster games, so the running back was an afterthought. Those guys were also probably on the higher end of their weekly ranges, so it opened things up in a way that may not be repeatable. I'd lean towards the lower end of that range.

Now add in his size, his injury history, Blount, belichick's willingness to change players and schemes, opponents changing how they defend the pats, and there are risks.

If we were drafting for a brand new season today, I'd consider him a 240 point player. He's already scored 60 - or 15 points over expectations - so I'd adjust that up to 255. That would make him a low end rb1 for a full season, and a little lower when you factor in guys like cj Anderson and Jeremy hill who blew up during the second half. I'd also consider him a slightly higher risk than other backs, for all the reasons I mentioned above, but I'd say he had some upside, too.

I have more than 12 rbs in my rb1 tier, as one should - before injuries and outside factors. Guys in his tier right now, imo, are Ingram, Woodhead (ppr), Blount (non ppr), l Murray, hyde and Randle. Your opinion may vary.

That makes him about a redraft third (if you're high on him) or fourth round pick right now. If you can get second or third round value for him, you should do it without thinking twice. If you can get fourth round value for him, it's a coin toss depending on your personal preference and/or positional need.

In dynasty, those risks are greater. The pats could draft a guy, bring in a Sammy Morris, decide they love James white, decide they love Blount, etc. He's done well, but lots of guys have looked good for three weeks before and gone on to lose their jobs. Cashing out for a guy with more pedigree or doing a two for one for a legit talent would be wise imo, unless you really need his performance now and are willing to take the risk. If I could consolidate two guys like Larry Fitz and Lewis into one young stud, I'd be thrilled. Found money.

 
These are the principal RBs during BB's tenure:

Redmond

Antowain Smith

Dillon

Maroney

Morris

Faulk

Green-Ellis

Woodhead

Vereen

Ridley

Blount

Bolden

Gray

Observations:

1. Many people want to point to BB's history of platooning RBs, as if that is his favored approach. I would point to that list and argue that he platooned his RBs because of the mediocre/limited talent he had to work with.

2. There are a number of RBs on this list that fit into a somewhat limited 'big RB' role (Smith, BJGE, Ridley, Blount, Gray) and others that fit the somewhat limited 'small RB' or 'passing down RB' role (Redmond, Faulk, Woodhead, Vereen). This has lended itself to a platoon approach at the position.

3. Lewis is arguably more talented than any RB on that list other than Dillon. Why should we expect him to be used like everyone else on the list? When Dillon came to the Pats, he was not platooned like just about every other RB on this list, so BB has not treated every RB the same.

 
3. Lewis is arguably more talented than any RB on that list other than Dillon.
This is a pretty ambitious statement for someone who most people didn't know existed until he had a good week one. Why can't we just say "he's doing really well, and if he keeps doing well there's no reason to think belichick will go away from him"? Or "he's playing as well as any back since Dillon"? Fwiw, Blount is pretty talented too. Not elite. Not nearly as shifty. Different kind of player. He plays a role the Patriots like to use and plays it well. Sometimes they'll use one more than the other. Sometimes they won't use the backs as much, sometimes they'll use them both a lot. It looks like Lewis has earned playing time even in pass heavy schemes. That's enough for me.

 
3. Lewis is arguably more talented than any RB on that list other than Dillon.
This is a pretty ambitious statement for someone who most people didn't know existed until he had a good week one. Why can't we just say "he's doing really well, and if he keeps doing well there's no reason to think belichick will go away from him"? Or "he's playing as well as any back since Dillon"?Fwiw, Blount is pretty talented too. Not elite. Not nearly as shifty. Different kind of player. He plays a role the Patriots like to use and plays it well. Sometimes they'll use one more than the other. Sometimes they won't use the backs as much, sometimes they'll use them both a lot. It looks like Lewis has earned playing time even in pass heavy schemes. That's enough for me.
It's the world in which we live.

Everything has to be black or white.

 
3. Lewis is arguably more talented than any RB on that list other than Dillon.
This is a pretty ambitious statement for someone who most people didn't know existed until he had a good week one. Why can't we just say "he's doing really well, and if he keeps doing well there's no reason to think belichick will go away from him"? Or "he's playing as well as any back since Dillon"?Fwiw, Blount is pretty talented too. Not elite. Not nearly as shifty. Different kind of player. He plays a role the Patriots like to use and plays it well. Sometimes they'll use one more than the other. Sometimes they won't use the backs as much, sometimes they'll use them both a lot. It looks like Lewis has earned playing time even in pass heavy schemes. That's enough for me.
It's the world in which we live.

Everything has to be black or white.
Well, in fairness to everyone saying he's talented - if you watch him play, it is pretty black and white. There aren't many backs in the League that make moves like this kid. As far as his pass catching ability, I don't think there's enough to go on yet. It takes a lot more than 3 games to say someone has great hands. Same with his blocking and route running. I need to see more.

 

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