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***Official 2020 Michigan Football*** (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter The Commish
- Start date
The Commish
Footballguy
The angry mob has arrived. I'm proud of the students. They get it. Stephen Ross better be careful or he's going to be brought into the light as "part of the problem". There's no question of his influence and how deep his pockets are, but folks are now starting to ask if he has too much influence and essentially "bought" the department.
whoknew
Footballguy
Now I'm really depressed -
Link
Who'll replace Brady Hoke at Michigan, once the Wolverines finally acknowledge they'll need to dump a coach who's failed on the field and lost the entire fanbase? There are three obvious names, each of whom would be a major challenge even for a top-10 power program like Michigan to pull, and then there's a big cluster of potential Plans B.
Someone like Texas A&M's Kevin Sumlin could be an excellent hire for Michigan, were he not already minted at a school in a talent-soaked state, with a newly renovated stadium to show off. He's been successful everywhere he's been, though, and has more Midwestern ties than you'd think, having played at Purdue and spent eight years as a Big Ten assistant. And for fans who've endured two straight years of unwatchable offense, the idea of a Sumlin air raid upgrade would be too exciting to bear. Alas.
The worst part of it is that Michigan apparently chose Hoke over Sumlin when replacing Rich Rodriguez in 2011, according to Bruce Feldman on his weekly podcast. We knew Michigan AD Dave Brandon failed to land a Harbaugh brother or Northwestern's Pat Fitzgerald to replace Rodriguez, as John U. Bacon detailed, but Sumlin's name is a new one here.
In response to colleague Stewart Mandel's point that too many Big Ten teams seem to default to hiring up-and-coming MAC coaches instead of going big, as Arkansas did by grabbing three-time Rose Bowl coach Bret Bielema from Wisconsin, Feldman dropped the following:
"I don't know how many people know this, but when Dave Brandon was interviewing to replace Rich Rod, one of the guys he actually interviewed was Kevin Sumlin. And he turned down Kevin Sumlin and ended up taking Brady Hoke, the Michigan guy. And I can't imagine too many Michigan fans are thrilled now that they know that that was the decision that was made ... [sumlin] was one of the guys they considered, and they didn't want ... Not a Michigan guy, though, and they wanted the Michigan man."
Link
Who'll replace Brady Hoke at Michigan, once the Wolverines finally acknowledge they'll need to dump a coach who's failed on the field and lost the entire fanbase? There are three obvious names, each of whom would be a major challenge even for a top-10 power program like Michigan to pull, and then there's a big cluster of potential Plans B.
Someone like Texas A&M's Kevin Sumlin could be an excellent hire for Michigan, were he not already minted at a school in a talent-soaked state, with a newly renovated stadium to show off. He's been successful everywhere he's been, though, and has more Midwestern ties than you'd think, having played at Purdue and spent eight years as a Big Ten assistant. And for fans who've endured two straight years of unwatchable offense, the idea of a Sumlin air raid upgrade would be too exciting to bear. Alas.
The worst part of it is that Michigan apparently chose Hoke over Sumlin when replacing Rich Rodriguez in 2011, according to Bruce Feldman on his weekly podcast. We knew Michigan AD Dave Brandon failed to land a Harbaugh brother or Northwestern's Pat Fitzgerald to replace Rodriguez, as John U. Bacon detailed, but Sumlin's name is a new one here.
In response to colleague Stewart Mandel's point that too many Big Ten teams seem to default to hiring up-and-coming MAC coaches instead of going big, as Arkansas did by grabbing three-time Rose Bowl coach Bret Bielema from Wisconsin, Feldman dropped the following:
"I don't know how many people know this, but when Dave Brandon was interviewing to replace Rich Rod, one of the guys he actually interviewed was Kevin Sumlin. And he turned down Kevin Sumlin and ended up taking Brady Hoke, the Michigan guy. And I can't imagine too many Michigan fans are thrilled now that they know that that was the decision that was made ... [sumlin] was one of the guys they considered, and they didn't want ... Not a Michigan guy, though, and they wanted the Michigan man."
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timschochet
Footballguy
It's amazing to me that they havent done it yet. What are they waiting for? Are they really going to continue the season with Hoke?
The Commish
Footballguy
FIrst I've heard that....just shows that #1. Brandon's an idiot and #2. This "Michigan Man" stuff is truly pathetic. I'm glad stuff like this comes out though...it shines a giant spot light on some of the problems.
The Commish
Footballguy
You know....the more I listen to ex coaches and players, my anger towards Hoke's handling of this thing lessens. I'm not excusing the fact that Morris was let out on the field when he shouldn't have been, but I'm not placing blame squarely on Hoke. I get that it all starts/stops with the coach, which is a nice thought and all, but I'm more of the opinion that the system in place wasn't appropriate. That said, these are two different incidents IMO. If Michigan is going to fire Hoke, then fire him because he's not getting it done. Don't hide behind the Morris incident. If they fire Brandon, fire him for being an idiot, not because of the handling of Morris.
B-Deep
Footballguy
but if the system is the responsibility of the coach and the AD shouldn't they be held accountable?
to this point they cannot explain the system, and on monday hoke insisted as far as he knew there was no concussion, but brandon said there was one diagnosed from sunday..
this is a big deal, there is either a stunning incompetence here that endagers athletes, or a really poor coverup
i've thought they deserved to be fired for doing a ####ty job, but this is actually a bigger deal to me
whoknew
Footballguy
They are either completely incompetent, liars, or both.They should not be in charge at Michigan.
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The Commish
Footballguy
They are accountable. What I'm saying is it's as systematic more than individual. Meaning, if there was another coach on the sideline, the same is likely to happen IMO. It's not excusing them, but if we're being honest, this isn't an issue if Michigan was 4-0, and Morris is leading the team to victory. It would be the "gutsy performance" narrative we've seen a million times over the years.
ETA: This distinction isn't me excusing any of their actions or changing my feeling on Brandon/Hoke being in their positions....just calling a spade a spade. I can't think of a single person here, or anywhere else calling for Hoke's head because Gardner was playing injured last year or the year before. We all knew "something" was up with him, but he was that "gutsy" kid to most.
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whoknew
Footballguy
I've heard this a lot this week, and I disagree. If M were undefeated, it would not be as big of an issue. But it would still be a big deal.
Concussions are the #1 issue in football. They are threatening the game itself. It would not be overlooked.
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The Commish
Footballguy
We'll never know, but history would suggest otherwise
I firmly believe that Morris going back into that game for a play wouldn't have been a big deal. It would have been a passionate kid fighting his way back on the field, but the coaches pulling him after "sneaking one by them" and the coaching staff "doing the right thing" once they realized he was back out on the field.
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There is a lot more knowledge about concusssions and a lot more scruntiny today than there was even two years ago. So I don't completely buy that. The way the NFL now deals with concussions shows a major shift in thought.We'll never know, but history would suggest otherwise
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
It is essentially what sports "journalism" is becoming. While publications that employ actual professional writers are getting killed as they switch their focus from print to web, these awful sites like Bleacher Report and SB Nation have come up with a moneymaking formula - Let random fans write for them, pay them nothing, and fill their poorly written articles with keywords so they pop up at the top of Google news searches.
Anyway, don't mean to hijack the thread. Carry on ranting about Brandon and Hoke.
B-Deep
Footballguy
yup
backup QBs helmet came off and he had to miss a play, morris went back in
according to hoke he went back in while hoke was correctly arguing that they should be able to burn a timeout and not pull Gardner, and before he realized it BAMO Morris was back in there, presumably with a play to run, you know the plays that Hoke is fully aware of without wearing a headset
at this point apparently Hoke and everyone else thought morris had been stumbling around dazed because of an ankle injury, a belief Hoke held firm to through his press conference on monday
there was a system in place
mistakes were made
what was the system what were the mistakes? you have no need to know that. they admitted it was a mistake what more could anyone possibly ask?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
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LAUNCH
Footballguy
He got jacked up by Cockran and was dazed and stumbled. The refs also are to blame for this because Cockran should have been tossed and they also let Shane stay on the field He stayed in for another play and everyone in the stadium knew he shouldn't be in there. The commentators on TV were all over it. Gardner went in for 3 plays I think and they trotted Morris back out. The entire place erupted with boo's. I know everyone wants to give Brady the benefit of the doubt, but I just don't get how he missed it.
Shane should have been pulled in the 3rd quarter after his near safety either way. His ankle got twisted and he could barely put pressure on it. They still were in the game at that point, but Brady was being stupid. Gardner saw he was hurting, along with everyone else. He started doing warm up throws and changed from his baseball cap to his beanie. I think he was shocked that he wasn't being put in. Minnesota went down and got a FG so it was 13-7 and still a game. Shane came back out, couldn't plant his foot, and wasn't accurate all day. He then proceeded to throw the pick 6. They get the ball back and he fumbles. Minnesota scores again and its 27-7.
I didn't like the idea of putting out Shane as the starter for the sake of change to begin with. If he earned it, great, but I doubt that happened. Once Shane hurt his ankle, leaving out there with that o-line was just cruel.
whoknew
Footballguy
gump
Footballguy
Is it rare at a major program that's this low, though? When it's clear a change is being made after the season?
Kiffin was fired during the season...so was Shula.
I think it's nothing but a detriment to keep him, if the decision is already made.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I think most M fans would be onboard with firing Hoke today but I Honestly..I don`t think the decision has been made. Michigan has a new president that has only been the 2 months. Brandon hired Hoke as "His Man" Brandon is way too arrogant to fire Hoke now..unless he is pressured by the school regents and President. Hoke will be fired..just not now.
The Commish
Footballguy
If Michigan didn't fire RR midseason, I don't see them firing Hoke. That said....nothing would surprise me at this point.
gump
Footballguy
I know RR had some NCAA issues, but to an outsider Hoke seems to be in a much worse place. At least RR went to a New Years Bowl his last year.
The Commish
Footballguy
Hoke went to a BCS bowl....and actually won...he didn't get beat by 50 or whatever it was. That didn't happen until later 
The overall talent level on the team now is better than it was then IMO. Far more depth for certain. There was not a single indication that RR was trending towards improvement on defense and they needed to trend that way to help the offense improve. Hoke's made a major mistake in not addressing Borges earlier. That's his largest issue IMO. But, he did address him, just too late. Now they are putrid on offense because of yet another new scheme and complete lack of player development on that side of the ball. I can't hang that on Nuss. Couple that with over 70 of the players being Freshmen or Sophomores and you have what you have. For all Hoke's issues, there are hints of improvement. That wasn't happening with RR.Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Talent level is better? Where? QBs are horrible. RBs are below average and Green has not panned out. Funchess is a good receiver but that is about it. The o-line is mediocre as is the d-line. Michigan always had at least 2 dynamic players on each side of the ball, plus above average everywhere else. Under Hoke I see a team that plays soft gets pushed around.The Commish said:gump said:
Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
The Commish
Footballguy
Guess I should have said "potential"...obviously development is key and where they are lacking...especially on offense. Talent is significantly better on defense than it was under RR. Both Green and Smith are sophomores learning yet another system, so I'm not sure we can label them busts. They have been more productive than last year and Isaac appears to be an upgrade over both of them. The o-line, while mediocre, is improved over last year (pretty low bar though). Michigan hasn't had the bold since Carr left and my comments were comparing RR and Hoke...not historically speaking. I see a talented team completely lost. With RR, I just saw a talented "QB" and the rest of a team that was lost.Talent level is better? Where? QBs are horrible. RBs are below average and Green has not panned out. Funchess is a good receiver but that is about it. The o-line is mediocre as is the d-line. Michigan always had at least 2 dynamic players on each side of the ball, plus above average everywhere else. Under Hoke I see a team that plays soft gets pushed around.The Commish said:gump said:
Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I agree according to the recruiting ratings that the talent has been upgraded. Just don`t see it on the field. Green was one of the top rated RBs but I just don`t see it when he plays. Makes me wonder about some of these rankins or is it coaching? Michigan is littered with 4-5 star players. The bulk of MSUs team are 3 star players, yet they seem so much more talented.Guess I should have said "potential"...obviously development is key and where they are lacking...especially on offense. Talent is significantly better on defense than it was under RR. Both Green and Smith are sophomores learning yet another system, so I'm not sure we can label them busts. They have been more productive than last year and Isaac appears to be an upgrade over both of them. The o-line, while mediocre, is improved over last year (pretty low bar though). Michigan hasn't had the bold since Carr left and my comments were comparing RR and Hoke...not historically speaking. I see a talented team completely lost. With RR, I just saw a talented "QB" and the rest of a team that was lost.Talent level is better? Where? QBs are horrible. RBs are below average and Green has not panned out. Funchess is a good receiver but that is about it. The o-line is mediocre as is the d-line. Michigan always had at least 2 dynamic players on each side of the ball, plus above average everywhere else. Under Hoke I see a team that plays soft gets pushed around.The Commish said:gump said:
Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
D in the D
Footballguy
you have to remember that the "Michigan Man" crap was started by a guy that later in life was responsible (or at a minimum, complicit) with the Detroit Tigers firing Ernie Harwell, one of the most beloved figures in Detroit sports history.
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The Commish
Footballguy
I don't really dive into the rankings of the sites, but MSU gets plenty of talent...as does Michigan. I think it's clear MSU is developing their talent better, especially on offense, than Michigan. Consistency is a significant part of that. To me, it seems Hoke and company focused WAY too much on defense early on because it was SO bad under RR. He's guilty of ignoring the offense just like RR was guilty of ignoring the defense. The difference here is Hoke has seen that and is not trying to adjust...too little too late IMO. He should have made a move at OC when it was apparent Borges was too stubborn to adjust his approach to the little talent RR left. I am generally of the 5 year philosophy as long as their progress made each year. I've seen that happening on defense but not offense. That's a problem. Whoever takes over for Hoke won't have close to the chore that Hoke did when he took over. I honestly believe the foundation is there, but I don't think Hoke is going to be able to get them reaching their full potential.I agree according to the recruiting ratings that the talent has been upgraded. Just don`t see it on the field. Green was one of the top rated RBs but I just don`t see it when he plays. Makes me wonder about some of these rankins or is it coaching? Michigan is littered with 4-5 star players. The bulk of MSUs team are 3 star players, yet they seem so much more talented.Guess I should have said "potential"...obviously development is key and where they are lacking...especially on offense. Talent is significantly better on defense than it was under RR. Both Green and Smith are sophomores learning yet another system, so I'm not sure we can label them busts. They have been more productive than last year and Isaac appears to be an upgrade over both of them. The o-line, while mediocre, is improved over last year (pretty low bar though). Michigan hasn't had the bold since Carr left and my comments were comparing RR and Hoke...not historically speaking. I see a talented team completely lost. With RR, I just saw a talented "QB" and the rest of a team that was lost.Talent level is better? Where? QBs are horrible. RBs are below average and Green has not panned out. Funchess is a good receiver but that is about it. The o-line is mediocre as is the d-line. Michigan always had at least 2 dynamic players on each side of the ball, plus above average everywhere else. Under Hoke I see a team that plays soft gets pushed around.The Commish said:gump said:
Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
gump
Footballguy
Look at the other schools routinely ranked near the top of the recruiting rankings...
It's coaching...lack of development. Look at the other schools ranked similarly or better than Michigan in recruiting.I agree according to the recruiting ratings that the talent has been upgraded. Just don`t see it on the field. Green was one of the top rated RBs but I just don`t see it when he plays. Makes me wonder about some of these rankins or is it coaching? Michigan is littered with 4-5 star players. The bulk of MSUs team are 3 star players, yet they seem so much more talented.Guess I should have said "potential"...obviously development is key and where they are lacking...especially on offense. Talent is significantly better on defense than it was under RR. Both Green and Smith are sophomores learning yet another system, so I'm not sure we can label them busts. They have been more productive than last year and Isaac appears to be an upgrade over both of them. The o-line, while mediocre, is improved over last year (pretty low bar though). Michigan hasn't had the bold since Carr left and my comments were comparing RR and Hoke...not historically speaking. I see a talented team completely lost. With RR, I just saw a talented "QB" and the rest of a team that was lost.Talent level is better? Where? QBs are horrible. RBs are below average and Green has not panned out. Funchess is a good receiver but that is about it. The o-line is mediocre as is the d-line. Michigan always had at least 2 dynamic players on each side of the ball, plus above average everywhere else. Under Hoke I see a team that plays soft gets pushed around.The Commish said:gump said:
Hoke's certainly in a political nightmare now....but even the students are more focused on Brandon than anything.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Recruiting sites are known to base ratings off the reputation of the schools looking at a player, so sometimes it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy - "he's going to Michigan, he must be good." Some of MSU's very best recruits - LeVeon Bell, Darqueze Dennard - were 2 star guys that were under the radar.
It's definitely a combination of scouting and development, but it's hard to say how much of each.
The Commish
Footballguy
Two of Michigan's best defenders are "three star" guys in Jake Ryan and Frank Clark. To me, it's always been more about the development than the star ranking you were when you came on campus.
whoknew
Footballguy
I mean, that's not totally true. Lots of studies have been done and 5* make the NFL at higher rates than 4* which are at higher rates than 3*, etc.
But - OF COURSE - coaching/development is huge once you get to college. And that has a huge say in how good a player is. And, its pretty clear, that this coaching staff is terrible at that. Its why MSU's 2 and 3 star players are much better than Michigan's 4 and 5 stars. And why, as gump said, all the other schools who consistently recruit like Michigan are actually good.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Not to mention Bo was born and raised in Ohio.you have to remember that the "Michigan Man" crap was started by a guy that later in life was responsible (or at a minimum, complicit) with the Detroit Tigers firing Ernie Harwell, one of the most beloved figures in Detroit sports history.
The Commish
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Interesting comments from Glazer this AM....has some of the fan base all riled up. Against my better judgement I watched the game last night. I have to say, I've never seen the defense look so lost on some of those plays. I also haven't seen the offense play that well in a long time. I know that's a low bar at the moment, but if they can keep that up, it's something. The season's generally over at this point. All we as fans can resort to is "at least they beat MSU/OSU" kind of seasons....with a significant miracle for either to happen of course.
LAUNCH
Footballguy
Green done for season with broken collarbone.
http://michigan.247sports.com/Bolt/Green-Not-On-Depth-Chart-31802561
http://michigan.247sports.com/Bolt/Green-Not-On-Depth-Chart-31802561
Keerock
Footballguy
Foosball God
Foos
Shut it down
The Commish
Footballguy
I can't be the only one that likes Smith's running better can I? I mean it sucks for Green, but he seems to be the "softer" of the two and it's not even close.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
When Michigan signed Green and his lofty ranking I was expecting a power house of a RB. After watching Green I don`t see him being any more than a backup RB.
The Commish
Footballguy
Can't say I disagree at this point. If he becomes decisive, then things could change quickly. Not sure if it's "just him" or the epic failure of the offensive line mixed in with his second new system in as many seasons. What I can say is, Smith doesn't seem to have the same problems.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Regents meeting tomorrow on Brandon All the student body focus is squarely on Brandon at this point it appears.
All the student body focus is squarely on Brandon at this point it appears.
Foosball God
Foos
They lost another commitment as well. 4 star cornerback out of Virginia
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, it's officially off the tracks. Never thought I'd see anything like this out of any Michigan coach. Very sad IMO.
MAC_32
Footballguy
It probably was before then, but I was there after the Morris concussion. Haven't watched a snap since after Hoke still had a job despite that shameful event. The only thing I'm surprised about since then is we actually won a game.
